Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - The Family Behind For King & Country

Episode Date: April 30, 2026

In this episode, we sit down with the chart-topping Smallbone family of For King & Country to unpack the journey behind their music, message, and mission. From their early days growing up between continents to selling out arenas worldwide, they open up about the challenges that shaped their faith and fueled their passion- along with an inside look at their upcoming music and exciting new projects 👀 👀 From brotherhood to marriage, this conversation gives a candid, behind-the-scenes glimpse into how they navigate life, love, and creativity together. It’s honest, lighthearted, and full of depth, balancing plenty of laughs with meaningful moments. Whether you’ve followed their journey for years or are just discovering their music, this episode offers a rare look at the heart, humor, and family behind the anthems. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things, interviews. With Sean and Andrew. We have another fun one for you today because we have a big group. We have in the studio for King and Country and their wives. That's right. Luke and Courtney Smallbone as well as Joel Smallbone and his wife, Mariah Peter Smallbone. We had so many laughs. We did. The group interviews are becoming my favorite interviews we do.

I think the dynamics are just so much fun. You get to see them play off each other. You learn their, they're, like, demeanors and their character. And it was really fun. I am a big fan. This interview was in promotion of their new song Ever and Ever. And, man, we weaved in between lighthearted topics and really deep topics. And I loved every second of it.

And I hope you do as well. If you want to find out more information about the small bones and their band For King and Country and the song that they came out with that includes all four of them, which is so fun. Then we'll link that information down below. But we hope you enjoy this one with the Smallbone family. Welcome to our second group podcast. We've ever done. The first one went really, really well.

Swimming. No pressure. We've got to high hopes. Yeah. No pressure. But we got to keep it organized and we got to keep it, you know, respectful. We're going to pass the mic. Just don't forget the mic.

Don't forget the mic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So just if you start saying something, reach for the mic. We'll pass the mic. Let's not continue to hold the mic, though. We just let's just pass it all. Yeah. Yeah.

We can do that. We can do that. You guys are holding like pros too. We kind of just pop that thing right off the mic stand and we're just rolling with it. So thank you. I also thought that I dressed up today, but you are super fashionable. I looked at my closet this morning and I thought we were in tandem. I thought we were going to do the right thing.

But here's the deal. Courtney actually picked out my outfit. You guys match and it's really cute. No, Courtney, when Courtney wants us to, well, me to be. stylist, she picks out the wardrobe. Well, Courtney picked out my wardrobe today too. No way. This dress, sponsored by, styled by Courtney Smallbone.

It is a vibe. It is cool. Everything cool that I have, Courtney bought it for me. That is a big statement. Except for the few things that I bought you in the 12 years of marriage that are cool as well. This is not true. Yeah. Oh, I put a ring on it.

That is really sick. Just trying to make it as obvious as possible. That's really sick. She's married. But it's interesting because Sean, you're kind of also wearing green. So it's like Team Green over there versus fashionable. This side is certainly going to have more wisdom than me. We have this side.

How are we rating this competition? Because we love competition. Yeah. Are you guys competitive? Completely. I love this. Particularly. Really?

I mean, I don't like to lose, but I don't think we're designed to want to lose. If you do, I've got questions for you. You know what I mean? You're also competitive? Oh, look. I talked about you this morning in an interview. Did you say nice things? I talked about because the guy that was interviewing me, he said that, he said, your brother-in-law, Luke

stitched up my forehead when we were playing a basketball game. I know who you're talking about. And I said, Luke gave me a basketball injury too. Do you remember when we were playing basketball on the cruise ship? And I was wearing sunglasses and you elbowed my eye and the sunglasses cut my eye, gave me a little black eye. I don't remember that pop, but I remember stitching the other guys. It was good times. It was good times for the family drama.

I'm officially nervous for the family. I do have a question about stitching some guys' forehead. Are you licensed to do this? Or it was just like, no, no, no, no, no. I just, for whatever reason, maybe it's because we've got four kids. It's like, hey, if there's blood, send me in. You know what I mean? He actually grabbed a staple gun.

I was just like, it was like, it was one of these injuries. And so it was just bleeding and gushing. And so, yeah, we rushed him off to the bathroom and got some gauze. And we fixed him up. Did you do like a needle and string? No, no, I just tried, no, I mean, I definitely, I homeschooled it, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. We were homeschooled, by the way, so we can say that stuff, you know, just to set the record straight with this podcast. That's great.

You speak for yourselves, but you. Yeah, these are public schools over here. Please. Yes. Okay, so first question, we can now do round robin style. We'll just go around. I want to go around and ask, what has been your favorite band name that you two have shared together? Because there's not just been one.

Look at this guy. He's done some research. Can we each share about our most favorite and least favorite? I'm going to go with least favored band name was actor and ash. We were going to have like alter egos. And Luke, my trusty little brother was going to go along with it. And I was going to be actor. That was going to be my name.

I don't know if I decided I was going to go along with it. I just thought that the idea was so bad. but it was going to fizzle and it did. And it did. Paying homage to Pokemon, ash, or? No, this is cool,

I think this was maybe... How do you know Pokemon? Well done, man. Yeah, thank you. Damn on. No, it was actually because I,

everything was digitizing when we were coming out as a band and to like iTunes and they were all going to lists. When the digital... They were digitizing. When the internet came out. So I was trying to find a name

that started. Early in the alphabet. Oh, dude, I love that play. Joel's actually a marketing man. He's not really an artist. He's a marketer. He thought it through it, which I think is... However, don't a lot of artists do this

where they, like, come out with like another, an alter ego? And they like do multiple. Yes. Yes. A hundred percent. Yeah. Can you give me examples of who's doing that successfully? Timothy Chamelais, for one.

He has an alter ego rapper. No, he doesn't. Yeah, yeah. He's actually really good. Yeah, another example is the guy from Stranger Things. You know him so well that you're calling him the guy from Stranger Things. I'm sorry. Joe, thank you so much.

Joe has an artist. He's a musician? Yes, and he keeps them very separate. So he doesn't. So people don't really know what his artist's name is. But he does great. He's like headlining festivals doing great job. I think the only one I ever knew up was.

Arthur Brooks. No. I did like that. Did he do that? Goff Brooks Chris Gaines He said Heard over heels

Dude he did a whole interview Eric Clapton He didn't I suppose But there's something about you When you're around Baby I ever found I get lost In your wonderful ways

Key change now No no he really did that He did that And that was a great song that nobody heard because of the altering. And it was a total failure. To answer your question, I would say my least favorite Joel and Luke band name was actually Joel and Luke.

I just felt like we could do better. And we've also decided that on Joel's epitaph, it's going to say it could have been better. So maybe I've adopted that ideology. Do you think about that? Do you think about that? We just use that word. When you're done, it's called epitaph.

That's what it's called. You think about your husband's death often. No, we actually... I don't know why we've been talking a lot about what we want to be on our tombstones. And we decided that for my mom, it's going to be... Because my parents live with us, it's going to be, where's meow-shan, which is the name of her cat?

She asks that at least three times a day. Meow-shan. Miao-shan, yes. But we haven't figured out mine yet. We're still brainstorming that one. But your husband's, it could have been better. could have been better. Okay.

I like it. Okay. Oh, wait. Okay. Mine, my, my death stone will say I left it all on the dance floor. Oh, that's close to Mariah's actually. What yours? I don't know.

I don't know. Maybe it's that. Maybe. I can't have the same as course. I thought yours was going to be always be extra. Ooh. Yeah. That's good too.

Can Mariah adopt yours? Yeah. Left it all on the dance floor, because she does. I'll do the extra. Like sore feet, you know. It gets after it. Sick the next day on the dance floor. Did I steal your least favorite band name?

I'm sorry. I also don't like the Joel and Luke era. Because I was like, we know your names. Yeah. Yeah. And it was sad songs. Back in the day, I was like, they're just like doing that harmony, but with sad songs. And I was like, I can't handle that.

What was that harmony again? Because it was very emotional and sad. It was triggering back those songs, that harmonizing they just did. It was a tough time. That was. The Joel and Luke, it was like, we were like an indie rock band. And we played all the clubs around town. Really emotional.

And it was, I was going through a breakup at the time. I was to say, had we been with them? Were we all together when they're at the tail end? But there was another one. Yeah, so there was a couple. We went by the Deep at one point, which. was pretty, I mean, that's pretty sad. And then, and a little presumptuous,

because you, like, probably hoped that you were a deep thinker, but then to call yourself that, that's a little bit strange. And then the other one was Osterville. Yeah, that's the one. Australia to Nashville. That was pretty strange.

The official abbreviation of Australia's Oz. And people call Nashville the Ville. So it was Oz to Ville. We made up a word. And again, an A word. So we showed up at the top of the list. I love it. And we actually did a show at Australia

during that time. was the first show we'd ever played in Australia. It was a festival. We went down with, we're going to call us. It was Osterville. And Australians have an uncanny way of just being like, mate,

this is the worst idea. I don't know how to pronounce this. And so in the middle of the trip, we actually switched from Ostaville back to Joel and Luke. Yeah, it wasn't good. So what would you say would be on Sean's epitaph? And what would you say? Can we just,

because I feel like that tells us a lot about you guys. We don't know you that well. I just learned the word epitaph. Tell us about it. I called it my death stone. Is that, is that too? Well,

your bio coming into this was all about the disco party too. Yeah, love a party. That's a good epitaph. Yeah. Anyway, my, do you want me to say

what Sean's might be? Yeah, because you're going to have to write it. You're going to have to write it. That's a good point. Honestly, Sean would probably leave a note for me saying,

hey, this is it. Just don't forget to, you know, plan the funeral, 10 o'clock on Saturday. Make sure here's a guest list. She's picking the font.

I appreciate that. Yeah, she's very organized. Type A person, not type A person here. So we're a good team though. Yeah. We are. Oh, okay. So Sean has a tattoo that says grace with humility.

Oh. You're such a deep thinker. Come, that's beautiful. Thanks, guys. You have it on your, you have a tattoo of it. I would say that would be appropriate, but I would also say something about, I think Sean is the most capable I can't reach the internet right now

That's my epitaph right there What is that? You can't reach me right now That would be like But I think she's the most capable Amazing woman But she does it with such humility It's amazing

So I think something about humility Would be Sean's Wow I mean how are you going to trump Yeah Mine is going to be sarcastic You can't now. You've been to pony up and say something pretty good. I just, I think yours should just say I have an idea.

That's amazing. That's good. That's good. If you were to know my husband, every day there's a new idea. And there's a group of people just like buckling up to make it work. Yeah. That's a pretty good one, to be honest. we know you so much better now. I feel like we know you guys. Someone's asking thoughtful questions today. Like, golly,

I was just here to laugh. Can we call the podcast the epitaph? Oh. I know. Presumptuous, you know. Or just the tombstones, you know, if we want to go,

AKA the tombstones. I actually like that. Sounds very sad. Coming out October 31st. What do you think, what do you think Luke's epitaph would say? Oh, everything is figure outable.

Oh, I love that. I love that. So calm. You did that really well. I want to say calm, cool, collected, anchored, just consistent. Everything's figure outable. He's just a constant river. And it's amazing.

I know. So that's your tombstone, babe. I got a sneak peek at that already in the interview. You're like, we have four kids, blood. I just calm. See, that's it. Just, it's all fine. It's fine.

It's amazing. It's like his superhero gift. It's like the nicest thing you've ever said to me. Thank you so much. As his other lesser partner to Courtney, I concur. Wow, that's great. That's sweetie. That meant a lot.

Thank you. That was very sweet. That was good. Yeah, the words of affirmation. Love language. Okay. You were going to ask me then what's hers? Yeah.

Which was what I kind of like doing each other. Left on a dance. So. Yeah, so she, yeah, she probably would do that. So that's very applicable. I left that all on the dance floor. I was thinking through, which is kind of, you know, similar to that, I would say that she lived it. Wow.

She lived it. And I genuinely mean that. Like, Courtney through and through is just the things that are dear to her, like, she will go and she will, like, if she's convinced of that, whatever it is being the truth, she will then go and do it. exactly that way. And that's something I, you know, because I'm, you know, being cool, calm collected, sometimes like, ah, we'll figure it out, you know. But then she's like, no, no, this is truth. No, we must orient our lives around this.

Wow. And that's something that I've always loved. Courtney Smallbone as advertised. Ooh, okay, Mo. That's sweet. So far, this interview's been an emotional roller coaster. I've got to cry. Yes.

No, we're laughing. You're crying. Okay, you guys kind of did each other's informally, but what would you say for Joel? Oh, you didn't like it. Could have been better. She already said that. I was going for the feels. I was going for the feels.

That's good. That's sneaky. I'm going to like this, Kevin. I like him. This is good. I think Joel's would have to do with. I got real high hopes. What's the thing that you say about Jesus?

Oh, he loved extravagantly. When Joel and I were dating, he was my first boyfriend and I could not comprehend how he could have been in a relationship before. And because I was so scared of dating because I'm like, why would you date if you're not going to be with a person and you don't know? And he had been with somebody before me for years, years, years, years, years. And then it was just baffling. I was like, but you didn't end up together. So why, like, how do you reconcile that? And he said something along the lines of I, I loved extravagantly.

And so I have no regrets because I gave everything of myself to that relationship. I gave my heart, my love. And when you see how Jesus treated people and interacted with people, he always loved extravagantly. And he didn't, he didn't hold back. And I think he does that really well to the point of where I'm like, Joel. It's like, you might never meet this guy again. He's our waiter just for an hour.

But like he will give everything to the person in front of him. And it's very, very admirable. It's pretty good quality. That's good. Received. Wow. Well, then what are you going to? What about hers now?

Okay. So we've got, we know I like it. Transition to the next question. I thought we should. I feel like we've got it. We've got a. No, not. What it feels like we have is sort of a joke of a tombstone, which would be true, which mine would be, could have been better, because I'm a bit of a perfectionist.

Same. You and me. And then for hers, I, and or Courtney, it would be, they left it on the dance floor because they did. Like, on life stand floor, on the wedding dance floor. Doing the Lord's twerk. Wow. The Lord's. I love that.

Never. Did not see that. No. Left her. I like it. But, so I have to go back, I have to go back to when we, Mariah and me first met. So we met at Luke and Courtney's wedding. And, um, he owes me a lot.

I owe him a lot. They both actually, Courtney. Technically, I was thinking. The stranger. Can we go with us, maybe then? They all us a lot. Okay. And, um, she, she was a wedding crasher.

She was not meant to be there. She was actually coming in to Nashville from L.A. Uh, to meet with record labels. and a very zealous mutual friend who was coming to the wedding called Courtney said I want to bring this young lady Mariah to meet Joel because they could end up together That's crazy And I still have the same impression of her

All these years later than I did when I met her And that was she And this is not a tombstone I'm sorry I'm not going to be as short But it was something to the fact that when I turn around I still remember in that purple blouse turn around after the ceremony. It was in between the ceremony and the reception, and I saw her.

And there was a, I know who I am. Like, she knew who she was. She saw things, particularly in, like, she's a leader to women. So she saw things in people that a lot of people don't see. Like they say wisdom is, you know, wisdom is seeing patterns where no patterns exist. Like, she can see things that a lot of people

can't see. And yet, she had such a, like a light in her eyes. Like, so there was this, it was like power, but it was grace,

and it was confident. So there it is. She is power. She is grace. She's beauty. Wow. She is Miss. You're not going to start.

There you are. There's a lot in that. I don't know we're going to fit out. It's just a large tombstone. It's a large tomb. That's all. Yeah, small font. I love it.

I'm kind of scared of Mariah now, but that's cool. Thank you. Very, very sweet. Okay, so I like, I like this because one of the questions I wanted to ask was about ambition. And I don't know if you guys are familiar with Donald Miller. Yes. But we did this exercise with him where we went through resume virtues and eulogy virtues, which is, I think, David Brooks is the author who kind of originated that concept.

But it's like, you know, the resume of virtues are what you do in your occupation, the things that you could write down and share of, hey, I have over 4 billion streams and over a dozen number ones or whatever you guys are at, which is awesome. Do I have those right? I was to say, it's insane. Four Grammy Award winners, 13 number one hits. Have we gone that from there? Let's say, that's it. Four and a half billion career streams. Yeah, it's amazing. So casual. Somewhat resume virtues, but then you have the eulogy virtues of what do people say at your funeral.

And the tombstone is interesting. Yeah, I love that we're starting this conversation with the end of our lives. Yeah. I agree. We'll work right. Let's work backwards. It does reframe, you know, I think the conversation. But I'm curious because you guys are so well accomplished.

And I struggle with ambition. and I'm so grateful that I have Sean as a kind of a coach. She's been in the public eye since she was 12 and had signed in big contracts and sent two. And like I have had to learn so much from her of reining my ambition in in order to allow for, I don't know, the other things that God has in our life.

So I'm curious how you guys have navigated that and then how maybe it's shifted over the years too. Well, I would say there's a lot of, ambition here. And something I said earlier today, which I think was relayed to me from someone a week ago, but they said, speaking of God, God put people to work pretty quickly after creation. It was like, we're going to go name the animals, go do the thing. And this idea of like co-creating, creating something, it's like built into our DNA. And look, I'm all about be still, no, that God is God and it's really important. But this idea of having ambition, I think we can be,

if we're not careful, we can almost demonize it. We can put on a pedestal and say it's all about the ambition. Or the flip side is go, it's not about ambition at all. It's about like go to a, you know, a monastery and dedicate your life and off you go, you know. But I think it's the framing, like, what's the why behind the ambition for us, you know? Like if the why behind the ambition is genuinely to like, I mean, Sean, I look at your journey and I'm like, I feel like you inspired a whole generation of young women to like overcome and to, you know, take take it seriously and like some of the greatest like depictions of discipline of like what it takes to be great at anything in life. I mean, that's incredible ambition. But the.

fruit of that ambition, I feel like it was like, and you're probably still living in the legacy of that I imagine, was like, that you called people to be higher and to be stronger and to be better. And so I think if it's selfish ambition, obviously, we know this, but it's like, man, that's going to crush, it's going to crush you under its own weight and everyone else. But if it's ambition for the sake of the betterment of humanity and to pour into other people, I kind of think that's beautiful. And then there's all the other. down menus of you got to do it well and and and you need to make sure you're good human and that you don't you know gain the world and lose your soul and all that other stuff but yeah i think it's a good word

and it starts with a i guess easily accessible i'm curious each of you because i agree mostly um oh conflict yeah let's see what we got you want to i want to speak to ambition through the lens of being a woman and having conversations with other women about ambition. And you are right in that I think there's this really weird taboo related to women with ambition. I know I've had that word weaponized in my own life when people have felt like I have wanted too much or aspired to too much or worked for too much. and I now as a grown woman who has sat with that very unique aspect of how God made me to be, have really embraced that it is one of my favorite parts of how God made me. I'm so thankful that God placed so many desires in my heart and so many longings and the discipline to follow up on that.

but in the area that I would be curious to push back on a little bit with you, Joel, is this idea that there is selfish ambition and then there's altruistic ambition. And I just feel like we're such complicated creatures. I don't think you can actually separate that. And when you look at it through the lens of a eulogy, which I think that was an exercise in one of Donald Miller's books that I read, it was like you were meant to write your own eulogy, which was one of my favorite parts of the book. book. It doesn't matter what that ambition is. You can say, you know, at the end of my life, I want somebody to give a eulogy and say she was a bridge builder between cultures and helped people experience empathy on opposite sides of a boundary or a border. You can say, you know, I want to be a great mother and I want people to look at my life and say that I loved my children

well, you can say, I want people to say that she served to the poor and the needy and like all of these things. She was a movie star. She was like, whatever it is you want people to say about you at the end of your life, there's a mixed bag as to why you want to hear those words. I am competitive. I am a perfectionist. At the same time, I want to make good on the sacrifices that my grandparents made to

give me the opportunities that I now have. when they came to this country. So yes, I think of my family. I also think of myself. Sometimes I want to win. I just want that W. You know, and there are times where it almost crosses the line. And I'm like, I want to win so I can prove to this person and that person and to myself

that I can do it, you know? But I think there's space for that. I think there's room for that. And I don't think God looks down at us with our desires that he put there and goes, how dare you and it better be pure and it better be perfect it's like he knows yeah i mean okay like even what you said jol and what you said it's like what did he say be fruitful and multiply he's like i'm giving you something to steward so like good stewardship is i gave you this talent it wasn't oh my gosh i have to hide this away making it small is more holy he was like no what did you do with it like we think

holy is like small and quiet or at least I have like I think it's very religious and it's like what did you do with what I gave you so it's like we're supposed to multiply whatever is given so if that's wisdom multiply it is that if whatever gifting multiply it and so I I hear both where I'm like it is it's so complex because we're human we are going to be selfish there's room and grace for that to be like, that was selfish, oop, you know. But it's okay to stumble along the path of, I want to be faithful. I want to be, I want to be a steward. And mostly every time you do that, you do it wrong. You test things. And then you're like, oh, there it is. There it is. You know, but I've thought about the parable of the talents the last

few weeks we've been talking about it. And I was like, man, what am I burying in my life that God's like, no, like, bust it open and multiply this seed and like give it away. I think that's the mentality is like, we're given something and we want to give it away. Well, then you have to multiply it. Love that. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously there's a lot of good thoughts there. I'd love to be the the one anchoring it here. This is fantastic. Look, one of my favorite stories is, um, about, remember the movie Characres of Fire? Oh, love. All right.

So there's a scene in there that you probably know where I'm going here, where they asked Eric Liddell, who, by the way, died as a missionary in China. And he was a brilliant man. He went to a kind of like an Ivy League-ish type school. Everybody knew that he was a great teacher, a great mind. And someone, and a reporter came to him and said, why do you run? Of all the things that you can do, you're an intellectual, you're all these types of things.

And he says, God made me fast. and so I feel the pleasure of God when I run, so I run. And I think the trick with ambition is, do you feel satisfied in Christ when you achieve something for him? Or do you feel satisfied with ambition when you win? Because I think if it's just for winning's sake, it's become an idol in your life. But if it's because of what Jesus is doing in and through you, and you can see, God gave me these gifts, he gave me these pleasures, and I'm living them out, and I get to actually

feel the pleasure of God doing these things. That type of ambition, I think, brings nothing but just glory to who Jesus is. When I think of Paul, do I think of an ambitious person? Heck yeah. That person was an ambitious person, but he was running a different type of race. That's the type of race I want to run. This is amazing. We're going to need a lot longer than an hour. You guys are going to have to come back because this is going to go. Just to like further on the ambition We have had many conversations in this room with couples Who find it very very difficult in marriage

Yeah To have both to have marriage and a strong relationship Because people believe and I think it's culture teaching this That when you're married you have to give up ambition And you have to give up your dreams And you have to give up your work Yes for sure Because they believe they can only have one

They can either go for their careers Or they can go for their marriage How do you all? Because it seems like you guys are all phenomenal teammates The way you speak the way you like play off each other And it seems like your ambition has grown from when you first met each other How have you strengthened and encouraged each other's ambition And whatever career past that is? I mean we know a lot of them

Without sacrificing The marriage like a connection. Before we answer that, can we learn from you for a second? Can you just tell us what ambition means to you, particularly coming from a world

where you experienced so many ambitious women and you yourself are an ambitious woman? What does what does ambition mean to you? Interesting. She's flipping the script on us, babe. I would say

I feel like I relate to what you were saying on in my career when it came to gymnastics. I was a kid. I felt the presence of God doing gymnastics. I was so shy. I was cripplingly shy. I could not look someone in the eyes.

I couldn't go to school and make friends. I was a misfit. I got told that I couldn't do things. My name was Sean. People like they were, everything about my life just felt very confusing. And it felt like it worked if I was in a gym. I felt like I came to life.

And as a little girl that had all of that insecurity outside of the gym, and I felt literally like Wonder Woman when I went into a gymnastics gym, it felt like a gift. And going all the way until the Olympics, I just wanted to feel that. And I wanted to feel more and more of that. So for me, it was never about winning to beat someone. It was about doing so much, doing just a little bit better than I did than,

the day prior. And I learned quickly that that I would end up on top of the podium sometimes and that happened. But it was just this strive to feel that more and more. And then outside of gymnastics, what Andrew was saying is like, I learned that it wasn't about the actual award. It was about falling in love with something and finding whatever that was. Well, sad.

That's beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. It's such a good lesson. to take away. And I mean, I agree. Like when you love, when you find a love for, in our case, you know, for music, for movies, we get to bring the best of ourselves to the relationship.

Nothing is stifled. Nothing is snuffed out. I'll be 100% honest and say, I haven't always done that right. I've, I mean, we've had seasons where. I've literally, I remember a very specific moment in our marriage. We were living at the cottage, however many years ago that was, where Joel had put it to me so bluntly, so plainly. He was like, do you want this? Do you, like this work, this career that you're going after?

Like, is this the thing that you really want? Because it's going to cost X, Y, and Z. And I walked away from that. I didn't say out loud to him because I had a feeling it would hurt his feelings and it would have. But to myself, I literally was like, I'll show you. Dangerous to even say that. Like, it was, I'll show you. And it was like, I'll do it without you.

I'll do it without your help. I'm going to go accomplish the thing that I want to do and I'm not going to depend on you because I want to prove to myself that I can do it. And I want to not need you. Like, let's just be honest. That's what was inside of me years ago. And I did it. I did it. I pushed through.

And those years were some of the most miserable years of my life. I mean, truly, some of the hardest years of our marriage. Because my ambition, like you guys were saying, my desire to win, overwhelmed my love of the work. and I had it all backwards and God in his good graces allowed me to walk that destructive path for more years than I would like to admit. And there are times even today that I look back and I'm like, God, why didn't you pull me out of that season sooner? Like I could have learned all that in like a year.

Did it have to be like three? You know? And so now what that does is it contextual. sexualizes ambition within our relationship. And I can sense and I can feel when am I loving the work and feeling like I'm bringing my best self to this relationship and when am I so obsessed with winning that I am excluding my partner from this dynamic? And that's a fine line.

But thank God there's a feeling to it now that I understand a little bit better. What did you say you guys need each other? Absolutely. Yeah. What about you? What about you, Andrew? You've been awfully quiet in this thing, Andrew. You're not getting out of...

I'm interested. Without a good comment or two. Okay. We're not going to answer that question. No. We're going to answer it. We did a podcast that came out literally two weeks ago. There are three sayings that come up within our marriage that cause conflict.

We did an episode on each one. One of them is I don't need you. So. I feel so much better now. I would like to phrase it. Thank you for saying that. But who said that to who? That's what I want to know.

Who do you think? So I'm coming from a place. I'm coming from a place of I don't want Sean to need me. I don't think I would say I don't need her. But I think that's how I feel now. Would you? What did you say? I view marriage is such a.

beautiful exercise and teamwork where it's like, I want to make her freaking the best she can be so much so that like, hey. Yeah. And then when I let her down, we're not both crippled. You know what I'm saying? And unfortunately, I will. We've been around like a lot of tough situations in our inner circle where it's like people are letting each other down in like the hardest ways.

And I'm like, I don't want, it's not like a cold thing. I just want to be the best teammate to make her the best person. It's absolutely. It's a funny how phrasing so important because what you're saying, I'm bad at it. No, you're saying, she doesn't like it. Look at her. She doesn't like it. Look at her face. You're saying, I don't want you to need me in the fact that if needing means codependence, if meeting means ameshment. If needing means I'm the hero and you just need me because I'm the guy. Then I don't want you to need me in that way because my job, your job, my job. And I, I think we all three would say this as husbands,

is to like, the greatest opportunity we have almost as men in life is to make them the greatest, freest, most beautiful version of themselves, like to lay down your life for them, like to lift them up. So in that sense, yeah, you're kind of right. It's like, I want Mariah to want me,

but if I'm sort of toting around that I need you to need me, it almost feels like I'm, I'm trying to, tie her to me or pull something out instead of just going to know fly exactly be the greatest version of yourself yeah and then we get to choose each other yeah thank you do i should you know how they do like the um the president like what he really means versus oh yeah i feel like you should be like this is what i say and this is what you can call me you mean a translator this is like a tramplator what i hear you saying is okay so i don't need you what are the other two oh wow i will let you down I'm not here to make you happy.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So I could use. I love how real this is. Can we keep it this real? Translator taken away. What do I mean?

What was the second one? I will let you down. I will let you down. Yeah. That is awful. And that kind of ties into even that era. I think even for us is like, yeah. You get a couple years into marriage and you think,

like this is awesome. And then all of a sudden you go, no, no, we're going to let each other. Yeah. Down? The hard part, and I actually believe wholeheartedly when I say this, that you all have the same exact dynamic, which I'm loving because everyone's fan. I'm very ambitious, deep thinkers. But it's so funny. You all have been together quite a while, 12 years and 15?

Okay. Done our research. Let her do her thing. He's looking over her shoulder. That's the problem with putting him on the high chair. He's going to figuratively be on his high horse. but there's something so beautiful of even like with those statements and with the arguments that have come from it it's like i we've been together long enough that you can see what someone means

and still get so mad that you aren't hearing it and the funny thing and you can see it in this interview and how you ask questions is just so beautiful it's like you're such a philosophical deep thinker at such a deep level

it's like the words that come out of your bell sometimes I'm like you don't actually mean that it's like something so much deeper that you can't articulate in words that I can hear and it's so cool to see you guys are doing it too and how you're like translating each other. Everyone speaks different languages, but it is.

Sometimes the words, I'm like, ooh. Translating each other. That's kind of part of it, right? Yeah. Is to translate, is to actually translate each other. It really is. This is deep, dude. Jeez.

It's deep. Man. I forgot. I lost my question. Go for it. We talked about teamwork. It's really cool. Your new song where you all are part of it, right?

how fun was that is that the first time you guys ever done that like that? Yeah second time yeah oh my gosh yeah

well the whole cost like the video was amazing the design of it the song itself is incredible I'm like is that

it's art tell me about how that project differs from like your normal is it is it a slower process because you have

more voices is it like yeah how does it differ also please take us back for a second and tell us

about the song where it came from Yeah, yeah. So it was actually a year ago, what's today? Today's 10th? 9th. 9th. Four days and a year ago, because I only remember us, because our engageaversary is February 13th. Engage aversary. Yeah, that's a thing. Yeah. And so a year ago, we were on a trip with our four kids down to Florida. How old? 13, 11, 8.5. Love it.

Yeah, three boys are the oldest. and then a little girl. Bless you. And by the way, just side note, my favorite, one of my favorite moments for Evie right now has to do with gymnastics, because she's also, she's going to be a giant,

so she's never going to last, right? But she goes to gymnastics. And Evie, as you listen to this, what he meets by giant is in life by decoding my partner. No, no, no, no. Here's a deal. I will speak with love.

You're going to be beautiful. I will speak with love. She's not going to be a gymnast, but it's fine. Shout out to my tall girl, Evie. Anyway, so, no, but she, when she walks, this is my favorite. think about her because you gotta think three boys we've gotten a little tough right and you get like

we're you know and then we have this little girl and there was how many weeks ago was it she was like dad um can you just take me and and and not mom we're like oh okay and she's walking literally just walking on the beam that she's still slipping off of that's on the ground right she's just walking on it and she would look it and she would walk and she would go oh and then she'd go another one and then she would And I will just never forget that moment. She's five. She's five. It just melted me.

And I was like, I love you, sweet girl. Oh, it's the cutest thing. So anyway, that's totally a offshoot of sorts, but it moved me as her dad. So a year ago and four days, we were on a trip, and this might be too much information. So forgive me if this is too much information. But I was having a shower. and fully clothed fully clothed

and for whatever reason this is another one that maybe I shouldn't say but this is true I have so many song ideas in the shower it sounds good it sounds good

it's like steamy and it's just like my mind is free the voice not on my phone but sometimes the phone helps me actually with ideas but anyway and so anyway I was down there

and I just started singing oh I love you And I remember thinking, like, I love her more today, 15 years engaged than I did back then. And so I got out of the shower and I just recorded it on my phone. And I think we had a writing session in the next week and just went in there and said, I got this idea, you know, because I don't know why, but it really like, I think I ended up in, like, tears. And, you know, after I got out of the shower, just thinking through. Because, you know, our story is, we've never had a ton of internal conflicts in our marriage,

but we've had tremendous external pressure from all sorts of just crazy stories. And to get to 15 years in being engaged and saying, I love you more than ever before. Now, by the way. It's just the engagement of her. He did marry her for the record. I liked it and I put a ring on it. Good translating. That's good translating.

That's good translation. Thank you for the transit. Yeah. So anyway, that's kind of was the, that's where it was. And we wanted to speak to like the song. Like we've always usually done on every record like one love song. And, you know, we've, to have a song that really speaks to the longevity of marriage

and that really at the end of the day, the moment you get engaged, which you should then get married, there's this beautiful, it's a beautiful beginning. marriage is the top sorry it's not the top it's the beginning the mountain top hopefully is the day before I'm in the ground that that love grows and we continue to translate each other's thoughts we continue to be able to understand each other

and so the hope was to write a song that really speaks to the longevity and the beauty of a marriage hard fought for because if you forget to fight for it the marriage will start fighting you in return and I think it's just one of my favorite things is that our marriage has bloomed and it's grown and I think it's more beautiful today than it's ever been

and that's what really the song is kind of all about. I love that. And I feel like the video captures, it's vintage, I don't know what era that would have been in like 18. Yeah. We'll go with 18. The Victorian era. Okay, so 18.

17 or it's 1800s. It's like Pride and Prejudice. It's Jane Austen era. But you're like, oh, wow. Yeah, this, I don't know, it made me just reflect on. the permanence of married in some sense where I hope that if we got married in whatever era we did as millennials that you know in the new coming age of AI it's like whatever era it is like that one thing is constant

despite the passing of time we always say in our marriage that it's like hey you hurt I hurt yeah you succeed I succeed you're winning I'm winning you're losing I'm losing because that's the And in a world that I think, you know, we've almost overcorrected a little bit on codependency, right? Because codependency is a problem, right? And everybody would recognize that. But I'm dependent on her. And I don't want to change that. Like, I need her, like, truthfully to be, like, my person.

I don't know. I'll get teary talking about it because that's the way it is. But, like, if I'm not dependent on her, I'm a shell of who Luke can be. And so to me, I've actually started to realize, like, in marriage, like, no, no, no. be dependent on that person. You need that person. It's a team. You hurt.

I hurt. You win. I'm winning. And so sometimes, man, when we come back from hard days or whatever it is and there's tears involved,

hey, I'll let the tears flow. Because if she's hurting, it crushes me too, you know? That's beautiful. This is my takeaway after these conversations

of saying things that I mean well, but say poorly, is, just like I said, Sean is so, she could be so fine all by herself she doesn't need me

see I misunderstood that out soon she is so fine that's right I was like go Andrew I was like okay so fine Boyne Boin Luke's still trying to have his cry So I'm sorry

They sucked back in They're back in there I blinked it out But like She really doesn't need anybody And what I realized is despite that, she has chosen to enter into this like vulnerable state.

And I'm like, dang. I think I'm like as great as I want to help her become in whatever capacity I can. It's like, don't lose sight of that. Just the tenderness of like, yeah, we're opting to be a team. So anyway, and you fine. And you fine. And you fine. But how was it for you guys with the group song with all of you?

Well, and let me say this too, just on behalf of you both. Like, I love that idea of like we three being Andrew, Luke and Joel, undoubtedly, unequivocally, totally married up. And the idea that we found these women who, like you said, are like this first moment I saw Mariah. I was like, she is strong, she is independent, she knows herself. And how cool to come into someone's life with that in mind. And I actually knew Courtney in many ways before Luke knew Courtney because we taught it VBS together. We were doing the skits. And she had fiery blonde hair.

And it was the same thing. I was like this woman, you know, and I hadn't even thought she should meet Luke. But I was like, this woman knows who she is. There's a strength there. And I think there's, that sets you up so well for marriage. And speaking of, our, you know, journey. as Marai touched on, and then going into this music video is, what does it mean?

And this touches back to your question about couples working together as partners. Because it wasn't modeled for us as much by our parents, I don't think. And partly I think that was cultural. I also think it was circumstantial. I think for our parents, it was like, you just had to do that. Like, this is the way it had to be to get by. I remember was it John Adams said, like, I hope that, you know, I can work hard to be a, you know, a politician so my son can be a poet.

So his daughter can be a singer. So that's part of it. Like generationally, I feel like we have the opportunity to partner partly based on our parents and our grandparents' sacrifice. Because look, go back to our grandparents' generation, they were fighting a war. They were going through a great depression. You couldn't choose this. we can do a podcast then. And so there's something really profound about going,

I actually think this is what, this is closer to what the true function of marriage is meant to be. It's like, we're meant to co-create together. You co-create life together, co-create podcasts together. You co-create home environments, relationships, songs. Like, and so the fact that we get to all, between the trio of these couples live out,

sort of, I think, a true image of what marriage is meant to look like. and that is lifting each other up, collaborating, co-creating with each other. I think that's magnificent. For us on this song, simply said, that's what it is, I think, for the four of us and for the two of us. It's like, Mariah as a Latin country artist and his fent, like a better artist than I am, better singer than I am, better writer than I am. Like some of these songs she writes on her own, I'm like, this is ridiculous.

Sombrera's dope, by the way. It's a great song. It's a great song. So, so, so, so, so, so. Okay. And so the gift of having, you know, her and Courtney come in and represent, as Luke said, this kind of fruition of love. Like, it's not the infancy of love. It's not the explosion of love. It's not being in love. It's this like, love is a constant. Love is a commitment. That's rich. So it was nice for it to be sort of, like you said, you kind of, the terminology, you watch the music video and you're like, oh, that's nice. It's pride and prejudice. But when you drop down into the layers of like what,

Our two couples represent, like we represent 30 years of marriage between us. Like, that's cool. And there's something deep to that. After your guys' song, I hear you get to go on tour again. What are you most looking forward to this fall as tour starts? Do we like tour? Just got really quiet. Okay.

She's reading the room. She's reading the room. Tell you what. It's like heavy size. Oh my gosh. The fall. The fall. What's happening next week? Well, this...

No, we just didn't expect the tour come. I know. It's just caught us off guard, you know? Part of it is because we have such a stacked summer. I mean, literally Luke, Courtney and Joel are, and the kids are moving to Ireland for three months this summer. Oh, wow. I'm going to get out there as much as I can. Joel's going to come out as much as he can.

We have a two-week rule where we don't. longer than two weeks without seeing each other, but even that's like a stretch. And so we're like making a film this summer and likely we're going to be making another film straight after that. And so I think that that's been occupying a lot of our hearts and minds. I've been just like mentally emotionally preparing for that, even just the distance that that we're going to have between us for that time. So, yeah, tour. I actually don't think I have spent.

I have not thought about it. One minute thinking about tour. I'm like, wait. I did today, though, because of an email. But I was about it. We'll get there when we get there, I guess. But touring is kind of our, I mean, we have a shorthand with touring as best you can. Like, we all have done it respectively, done it together for years now.

So it's kind of like, it sort of feels closest to our day job. Like, okay, that's what you're going to do. Whereas these other things, like, going to Ireland for three months is like, wow, that's a new. That's amazing. With the kids. They're so pumped. That's awesome.

They're pretty into it. Yeah. It's like, if we don't do it at this point, there's going to be like. And just so we've said it on the podcast, we are, the reason we're going is it is a Christmas Revolutionary War musical called drummer boy. Think like Greatest Showman. meets Hamilton, meets Pirates of the Caribbean, about two

brothers who end up on opposite sides of the battlefield. And so it'll, and it literally, the plan is, we've not said this publicly yet, but the plan is for it to come out end of the year. No way. You've heard it here first. That quick a turnaround, you all are animals.

We'll figure it out. You know, we'll see if we are animals. It's figureoutable. It's figureoutable. It's figureoutable. A couple of things. One, thank you guys for your rendition of the drummer boy I know first of all I've been my favorite song since I was a little kid also this movie I'm hype for

because it makes me think of that story of World War II Christmas Day when they sing you know what I'm talking about Yes On the battlefield they come together To sing that Christmas song Oh it's so sweet Someone made a commercial about it

Dude that will bring me to tears By the way not to give a spoiler alert But there might be a moment in the film That is reminiscent of that The storyline may kind of be that I'm here for it. We need more of it. But I, so I'm curious about this because you guys are obviously amazing artists.

And I sometimes get caught up in this, I don't know what the right balance is between, like, being in my fields. Like I love journaling. I love, like, jotting down ideas. I love, yeah, versus being in the present. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, dang. I think I'm sometimes I'm out of whack. Like, I'm too deep and I just got to just chill out and, like, be there.

I don't know. Do you ever think about is there is there some right amount of time to okay. He's looking at you he's looking at you though head in the clouds speed on the ground. Yeah you know that balance. Um well something we probably all have in common is that we all are dreamers we all like can can see something in the future that we hope for and we're all I think I know for the four of us for sure you guys strike me as such as well super hard working we we are committed to doing the work um my prayer lately has been uh god will you help me to trust that you can unfold my life according to your high concept and not my low self-worth and i surrender my small stale ideas in exchange for your daily fresh bread of expansive ideas. When you're a dreamer,

you think you have the best idea every day. I have a great idea. We do this. We do it. You know. And in reality, because we're finite beings, our concepts of what could be great is actually really small. And when you look back and you look at like those things that we wished we could make happen or that we worked to make happen and we see how it just touches the surface of like a much greater story and a much greater idea. My hope is that as dreamers, we can just break the lid on what we think is possible, on what we think is doable, on what we think is figure outable and get to that place where we're believing in God-sized dreams, in something, in doing something that the only way it would work, the only way it would happen is if God pulled off a series of

miracles. That's right. Yeah. Hence the film being released Exactly It's gonna take a miracle Miracle living in a miracle Oh my gosh Y'all just always go around talking like this Like dang this is

Yeah basically this is Daily routine right here Oh man This has been so much fun Yeah Okay Well I was gonna ask What you're most excited about

We know it's Somewhere between film, new song Or is there any other It's not tour like look you know so so to your point do we like that was my favorite are we all okay how's everyone feeling yeah like you know it's interesting because i don't look at any of these things that are coming up with like this eore mentality on any of them i think sometimes i i used to get so excited about like living in the future

to where I just forgot at some point the present. And I think to the best of our ability nowadays, it's like, hey, I look at the calendar, I see what the day has, and I pray and ask God to give me the best, give me his wisdom, and I attack the day the best I can. Because when I start looking at November or December

for a film release and all these other things, and in theory, you're right, there is a fall tour, and in theory there is stuff in the summer, and you just get this like, your mind can't consume, at all, but I try to have the prayer of today, Lord, you have my best. I give you my best. And if it's not, if that's not enough, I still got the love of Jesus. I still got the love of my wife. Still got the love of my kids. And his brother. And his brother. Right here. And so because

of that, for that, it frees me up in some level not to be super overwhelmed all the time. you know and so and that's something that's probably more learned because there used to be this like i used to say to courtney all the time i would say once i get through i think it's a really dangerous thing to say because if you're always just living your life through once i get through there's all sorts of like i'm pretty convinced that if every single person in the you know that we're christians would have become professional evangelists there's a great chance we'd have less Christians in the world. It's about the very simple task that God gives you every single day and do them at the best of your ability. Be the greatest accountant. Be the greatest lawyer. Be the best

doctor. Be the best fill in the blank that you can possibly husband, mother, father. For the glory of God, special things happen. People start to say, your kids are different. People start to say, your work is different. Why do you bring so much attention to such a low level, seemingly, whatever. And then it's your actions, as St. Francis of Assisi, you would say, your actions, they speak louder than words. And that preaches. You know what I mean? And so that's always the hope. So when we come to the fall tour, that will be the next, that will be tomorrow. And we'll go to bus call and it'll be like, tomorrow. You know, there could be amazing things for tomorrow. That's really good. Wow. I feel like we just benefited from hearing you guys talk. So thank you for

letting us sit in the room. I have been just struck by, I mean, your song is all about marriage and it's wonderful. Having a daughter who makes me cry three times a week at least,

like literally just rings my heart out. It feels like, which I'm not even that. Like, I didn't really cry before I had a daughter. And my sons don't make me cry like that either. They make me laugh,

but it's different. But it's like, I felt like, I'm just trying to grasp sand. It's a sort of certain extent. It's like, oh my gosh, you see them. They're so young. And every day, they're changing so much. And you're like, I can't, I can't grasp it. I can't hang on to it. And it's like, I think what your song made me appreciate was like, despite the sand sifting through my fingers,

it's become like this beautiful heap of meaning to some extent. Because it's like, it's, the marriage, our love, our family has been the thing that, I don't know, has framed it all. So I don't I appreciate. We're big fans of of marriage. So thank you guys for speaking to you all. Truly. Thank you so much for this. And you guys are a hundred times more wonderful than we

even imagined. And we thought very... I mean a hundred times you thought that low love us. We were not. We're that awesome, Luke. I think you're just that awesome. We had low expectations. No, thanks for taking the trustful

with us for sure and for doing it in this format because, you know, for those of you that are watching, we didn't, hadn't met each other before. So you kind of, it's similar to a writing session, honestly, you step into this thing and you go, all right, let's go deep. And sometimes you walk out a couple hours later going, when will it end? You know? And other times you go, this was really lovely. This unfortunately is the when we're at end version. But no. And then you get surprised. I think that's what you're saying, Sean, is you get surprised by like, oh, wow, we have so much in common.

Sweetie, lost word. Lost word, sweetie. Yeah, putting it all on Courtney. Why are you doing that? This will be the end of the podcast after this. All right. I'll give you something deep. I'll give you something fun.

Okay? Yep. So excited. Deep is going back, circling back to his comment, which was I don't want you to need me, right? Okay. We're going to go into the Hebrew when man and woman was made in Genesis. Man and woman in the Hebrew.

One is isish. I'm not Hebrew, so don't like, okay? And Isha. And together they make one. So even in the wording of man and woman, there's a oneness. And I think it speaks through how we need each other. I'm so sorry. She's saying I'm wrong.

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm saying we're such a dependent culture and that we don't celebrate interdependence. and it's so vulnerable. Where it's like, I can't be me without him. I actually can't. And that is so scary because I was so self-protective before marriage. I was the wall of China. I was like, I don't need no man.

Alanis Morissette cut off my hair. Just ask him. How did I get through the wall? Because you're so cute. But truly, so I would say for marriage is you see marriages that are just trying to run their individual race. And I think it's like put your ankles together and you're doing the race together. And that's like how God formed it. So that's what I would say. The second thing, guys, okay, I feel like, go with me, okay? Let's do it. Buckle up. We went into the Hebrew.

I think we all need to put our hands in a circle and say, go team marriage. Yeah. Get it. Get it. Feels right. Right? Okay. Go to marriage.

Is that what I'm saying? Okay. One, two, three. Go team marriage! I feel like we should dance. Oh, yeah. What are your sponsorships? I can give out your sponsorships.

This podcast is sponsored. Thank you for joining. Thank you for joining. Andrew and John today. And guess this is. Here is. Somehow Joel's trying. to close out the podcast.

This is a real-out.