Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - The Lie You Don’t Know You Believe | Jennie Allen

Episode Date: March 12, 2026

In this episode, we sit down with our friend, bestselling author, and speaker Jennie Allen. Jennie is also the founder of IF:Gathering, a global movement that equips and disciples women around the world. Jennie has just released her newest book, The Lie You Don't Know You Believe, which explores the hidden lies many of us carry about ourselves. In the book, she unpacks how these quiet but powerful beliefs influence our decisions, our identity, and the way we pursue success and fulfillment. One of the themes we explore in this conversation is the surprising emptiness many people feel after reaching the goals they once believed would finally make them happy- whether it’s career success, influence, financial stability, or personal milestones. Thank you for coming on our show, Jennie! https://www.jennieallen.com/ You can order her book directly here: https://www.amazon.com/Lie-You-Dont-Know-Believe/dp/1400249821?crid=1O55W1X8A66DJ&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.z1ASMlbX_ciP8Y5YryxYPaJ6zdNjIGZIwzzOweF24-gj5K23Xjtj3dS0UlZPxaY63-awEySPdUnqKXOCW5riUYfytvqsFyjTN1v44h5iE7-Dl0TkySW2d2F4X0DONwSQ.Y1vMFOIBHK9RFIkiMQ4Tt8VaihRiQR0rSAvoOwIIxO8&dib_tag=se&keywords=the+lie+you+dont+know+you+believe+jennie+allen&nsdOptOutParam=true&qid=1772506059&sprefix=the+lie+you,aps,212&sr=8-1-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1&linkCode=sl2&tag=emilycanlette-20&linkId=35a9accd0c8fe7a2444f826bfe26acc5&language=en_US&ref_=as_li_ss_tl Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things interviews. With Sean and Andrew. Today we have the one and only Jenny Allen, who it feels like yesterday she was on our podcast. But it was actually like six years ago. I can't believe that. We had her in person, first time meeting her in person. It's been so fun to follow her over the last six years. And she is a force to be reckoned with. A force.

Which is crazy because you meet her and she's such a gentle, wise soul. And you're like, wow, I love everything. about this. If you don't know, Jenny, she is a Bible teacher, a speaker, and author. She's the founder of If Gathering, which has helped millions of women around the world grow in their faith and build deeper community. She's written books like, get out of your head, find your people, untangle your emotions. And her most recent book, which is what we're here to talk about, is the lie you don't know you believe. Anyway, she has a great perspective. We'll link more information to her, her book, and what she's up to down below. She has so much wisdom in this podcast and this conversation,

telling us about what she's doing to truly just change the lives of, I would argue, millions of people. We did end this interview with me and her talking about going to prison. So I really hope and really think you will enjoy this podcast, please, without further ado, Jenny Allen. Ginny Allen, welcome to the show. Y'all, it's fun to be here. Welcome to Nashville. I know. I love it.

I told her, I was like, I swore she lived here. But I think that's just all the Christian writers. Everybody does. Everybody's here now. Yeah. I was reflecting on our conversation that we had with you six years ago. It was six years ago?

Can you believe that? Did you look that up? That is crazy. It's crazy. That feels like two years ago. I know. It does feel like two years ago. That is wild.

So y'all just had like a baby. We just had our second baby when we talked to you. And then now we have our youngest is two years old. And that's our third kid. But I wanted to thank you because in that interview, You talked about how raising kids is essentially raising your best friends if you do it right. I got one here. As you have your daughter here?

Best friends. But we're at this phase now. Parenting is so fun because we're starting to see that. And you're like, oh my gosh, these are the only people I want to hang out with. And so I was remembering that. And not a lot of people paint that picture of parenting. So thank you for inspiring that in us. I love that.

I'll say we're right on the cusp of such a change right now because our youngest is two and a half and we're out of like the infant phase. I was going to say y'all made it. We made it. Yeah, you get that baby to three. You get that baby to kindergarten. Once we get into kindergarten. I know. But even seeing your daughter here, I've, I am so excited and nervous for like the future of how do I preserve this relationship?

And it's, I just love, I love seeing mother daughter relationships because my little girl is my best friend. Yeah. That's so sweet. And I will just say this, every season of parenting, while every season has its challenges, I feel like I love the next season more than the last. And I wish somebody had told me that because you spend a lot of time with that firstborn dreading, dreading the next, dreading for them to go to kindergarten, dreading for them to go to high school, dreading them driving, dreading college, you know, you just, you spend a lot of time afraid of the future.

And I mean, because, you know, we're in their lives regularly, it just feels like it's just been better and better. And I wish I hadn't wasted energy on feeling afraid or dreading because it really has been fun. And let me be honest, some of them have been punks at times. Yeah, for sure. Not like they were perfect. Not Carol, not the one that's here. She really has been pretty perfect. Oh, weird.

One of my favorite things, I remember this from our interview and even now is, I think, feel like, and this is almost sad to say, but you're one of the few people who actually painted parenting and marriage and stuff in such a positive light. I feel like the world always is like, you're going to lose your social life. You're going to like grieve every phase. It's going to be really hard. And you, I remember that when we had just had our second. You're like, it's so beautiful. And it's like such a gift and it gets better. And it gave me so much hope. But why do you think you have such a different perspective from the narrative of the culture? That's so interesting. I do think it's hard. I think part of it is choosing to see the good and to believe the best, right? So I'm someone who I call myself a realistic optimist. So I know the truth. I know the heart. I can see it happening right before my eyes. But I think I always pictured who they were becoming instead of who they were. And I still have to do that sometimes because,

they're in process. And I think the other thing I would say is we did not care what we appeared to be. And that took a lot of pressure off our kids and it took a lot of pressure off of us. So when they would get in big trouble, we lived in a community where everybody knew everything and everything that happened and my kids would get in trouble and things would happen. And I just remember, you know, them coming home. I remember my son one time coming home and just saying, I don't care like what anybody else thinks. Are you okay? And what do we need to do about you right now?

And I just think that it allowed us to stay in the day. And it allowed us to not be as concerned about our reputation. It allowed us just to have grace for them to mess up. And one thing, my kids, they've done a lot of counseling and needed it, right? So I don't want to act like we've had this perfect family and perfect life. and the older ones have come, my voices out, sorry, everybody listening. It's hard to listen to it. And so my older ones would come to me and say things like, mom, you know, this is what I've

learned, like what's hard about being your kid or dad, you know, this is what was hard. And in those moments, I've just owned it and been sorry and we're closer for it. And then also one of the things they said in counseling was just they have. had a family that you could mess up and they saw us mess up and they saw us apologize. And so I think just having a common understanding that we're all going to mess up, we're all going to hurt each other, and we're always going to work it out. And we're never going to give up on each other and we're never going to quit each other. I think that gave our kids a lot of peace and a lot of security. Several of them have said things like one of the greatest things you did as a parent was

apologize. And I think they meant that for themselves, not just that we were reconciled. And we were but that they saw we could mess up too. Like because we messed up, they could mess up. And so that, yeah, I would say that's why I've enjoyed it is I haven't been thinking about everybody else, what they think, and I haven't been thinking about the future. I've been pretty present. And I mean, as you know, certain life stages, that's all you can do, literally, like, just get through the day.

And so it's been, yeah, it's just been fun. And I am blessed with the gift of. of hindsight now. And so I can look back. Did I feel that way? You didn't know me when I had a two and a four and a six year old. Did I feel that way then? I don't think so. I was scared about the future. But I can look back and go, man, that was fun. And I think our kids would say like there was a lot of grace in our house. Speaking of kids, we're here to talk about your new book, The Lie You Don't Know You Believe. I believe is inspired by an interaction with one of your daughters, is that right?

Yeah. So my daughter, Kate. Yeah, we're at an airport together in Atlanta, and she's sitting across the table from me. And both of my girls are just bright, awesome lights. I'm going to brag for a minute. They are gifted. They love God. My older daughter just married the most amazing man.

She's a photographer. Does really well. Just in every category of her life is a success. And she's sitting there telling me, I feel broken. I feel defective. and crying about it. And I, it made me so sad. And I felt angry, not her, but just that she had believed this lie.

And I wanted her to not feel that way anymore. And then I realized, oh gosh, like, what she's saying is the same way I feel still at times. And I, and I, it broke my heart. And I just, I wondered, it made me question so many things because I thought, okay, is this generational? because we weren't parents who were super critical. I mean, we just didn't. We were like, you know, great, you came in 21st. Yes, you know, that was kind of our vibe.

And so we just, we didn't care about grades. Like, we just weren't that family that needed everybody to hit a mark to be loved and accepted and all that. So I was like, where did she get this? Like, where did she pick this up? And I really feel like it was just from watching me live. It wasn't what I was saying to her. it was that she saw me striving for the next thing and feeling like I had to hit a mark. And you pick that up, just watching it, you know?

And so I think that set me on a course of curiosity of just, gosh, is this generational? Like, do we all believe a core lie that we don't even know we believe? Because when I began, as any parent would, to preach at her and say that is not true. And don't you know how unbelievable you are? Once I started in on that, she's like, stop it. You're my mom. You're supposed to feel that way. Like, this doesn't count.

And I was like, oh my gosh, she's defending this thing. Like this lie that has built, you know, to be something big in her life, she's defending it. She won't even hear a counter argument that it's not true. She really believes it's true. So I think that just broke my heart. And I thought, gosh, are we all just sitting here with this low-grade fever of this lie that we don't even know? we're believing. How does believing affect our day to day?

Oh, everything. So every part of life. So your relationships, I want you to picture. So let me start with saying this. The three common lies to all the humans on earth are number one, I'm helpless. I'm unlovable and I am worthless. Pause real quick. Oh my gosh.

Oh my gosh. What is it? It's a stink bug. Okay. I'm so sorry. It was going for your face. I was like, you said it?

Did you see it? I did. I did. I had to save your life, okay? It was a sting frog. Such a country girl. You just grabbed that. Oh, no, no.

That just killed my soul right there. It's okay. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. Does it stink? Does it get you? Oh, they smell so bad.

Oh, thank you. No, no, they don't. They don't. Yeah. Oh, okay. Hold up. I thought it was like a skunk and it was going to spray me. Hold up.

Have you ever smell the stink bug? Oh, man. It is one of the worst smells. It's not like a skunk. Thank you for saving my clothes in my hair. It's just a horrible smell. Never smelled one. Well, look at it, go.

Watch out. Don't kill it. Don't kill it. Okay. The three lies. Okay, so let me start by just kind of giving the groundwork for what we're going to talk about. So, Psych 101 and, you know, kind of human nature would tell us that there's There's three lies, there's three lies fundamentally that we all believe.

So the first one is, I'm worthless. The second one is I'm unlovable. And the third is I'm helpless. And I don't think any of us consciously think any of those lines in our head, but let me give you some examples. So I am worthless. There is always a mark and you're always trying to hit it. And you feel like if you could hit it, then you'd finally feel like, okay, then I've arrived. And the problem is it keeps moving, you know?

It keeps moving and moving. And so I'm unlovable. And you feel like if you could just hit it, then you would be accepted. Then you would be okay. I'm unlovable. You feel like you need approval from people. You're trying to get people to affirm you. You want to be loved and accepted.

And all of us want that. But it becomes almost like a drug. And it feels like it's really hard on your relationships. And you feel like you're always disappointed in people. You feel like you just can't, you know, quite get everybody on board to be for you and to love you. And it's such a whole, like all of these create really a big chasm. And we can feel all of these, but most of us have a core one. I'm helpless.

Often that lie is a core lie for someone that maybe has been through abuse or as a child found out devastating news that they couldn't control. And so they learned early on like, gosh, there's a lot about life I can't control. And at some point they just feel resigned or they try extra hard to control everything. And so these core lies really. go on to shape our identity. And I would say this is what's fun to talk about in the framework of parenting because often these lies, we start believing them from a young age. And there's usually a moment. In fact, I'll ask people I did this morning when I spoke to a group of people, how old were you

when you believe that lie? Because I can tell you right now, the first time I ever believed I was worthless, which is mine, and was also my daughters that day, is I was 12 years old. And my dad pulled me on his lap and was just so sweet talking about middle school and different categories in my life, boys and grades and all these things. But I heard and interpreted it to mean, I want you to hit these marks in all these categories. And that was just the first time I was like, oh, okay, this is how the world is. And I've got to hit the mark to be accepted. And I created, you know, that in my own mind. So it wasn't, it wasn't an ill meaning thing. It can come from anywhere. It can come from something small.

It can come from something really big in your life. But then it kind of plants itself in your head. And then decades later, it's like, gosh, I feel insecure. I feel anxious all the time. I feel like my relationships aren't working. I don't know why. To your point of the question, just it affects everything in life. It affects your parenting, your relationship with even like things like alcohol or food.

like it affects every part of life. And so I really am like very passionate about this because I think we tend to treat symptoms. We tend to try to pull up weeds when there's a really big root underneath. And when you can pull out that root and all the weeds come up at once, that's awesome. You know, that gives you some hope. So that's what what I hope this is good for. With these lies that are foundational, do you believe they're preventable or do you think, think genetically speaking, like born into our DNA, we each have a vulnerability that will expose

itself at some point. And it's our job to then figure out how to pull it up and heal it from a score. Such a good question. Yeah, I mean, I love that y'all are asking that as parents of a six and four and two year old because so much of my life is ministering to college students or young adults and older. And so for them, it's like almost always they'll point to a moment. And it's not an obvious moment. So it's not like you have to be afraid parenting. Like this is, first of all, this is like enemy warfare stuff, right?

Like this is, there's a plan to like bind us and put us in bondage and all of this. And so, you know, this is just the world we live in. And it's dark and it's twisty and it's hard. And I would say that knowing, that's why I am so passionate about this, because if you know to look out for it, you can notice it. So if you notice you have a kid that is always looking at you, you know, wanting to know, am I okay? Did I, did I hit a mark? You can know, okay, that might be that kid's tendency. Or if you've got a kid that just wants affection, feels like that you never can give them enough. And it's like, okay, that might be their tendency.

And so it's just speaking the truth over them. And I think you can't imagine how much just having attentive parents that notice them. You know, I think of Dr. Kurt Thompson. He says, he says, you come into the world looking for someone looking for you and you really never stop. And I just love that line. I think that's all of us, right? Like that's ultimately behind all these lies is we're just looking for someone that's

looking for us and saying, you're okay. I love you. I see you. And I accept you and you're safe. You know, we're all craving the same things. as kids as, you know, 80-year-olds. It's like we really never stop. And so are they preventable?

I mean, I think we live in a world that creates hunger because it's never enough. And so I don't know. I think it's a pretty loud, let's say it this way. There's a river running in our world right now. And the current is so strong. It's almost impossible. to avoid comparison, to avoid believing we're not hitting a mark, to avoid rejection, betrayal, feeling helpless in our current state of the world.

I mean, yeah. But let me just say some hope before I know we're going to get there. But I see all of it as an invitation because the best conversations with my good friends and the points of connection come from this. My relationship with God comes from this. Like if I can notice it in my own heart, then it's an imitation for me to go, okay, something's not right. And I want to share it.

And I want to know what I can do. And that has just brought some of the best relationships. I love the through line of all your books, which is last time we talked was for made for people. Yeah. And I feel like they're so related where it's like, you know, me sharing what lie I'm prone to to a friend is really an invitation to grow. relationship. And anyway, I just love the whole body of work

that you have composed. Thank you. Well, I was just going to say on that, as a mom to the young ones, even listening to this, I'm trying to like, I feel like I can tell you

exactly what each kid's probably tendency is going to be and what they skewed towards. We have very distinct characteristics in our children, which is so beautiful. But I will never forget when I,

my vulnerability and insecurity, like, throughout my career was always like body image issues and I always that control. But I always remember a psychiatrist that I work with said, if the voices in your brain get too loud to where you can't differentiate truth from lies, she said, your job then is to find the people around you who you can trust their words. And so when you're saying like made for people and your community having those people that you truly trust, which is really hard to voice to. But I think helps give you that reassurance of actual truth.

And the more you can kind of hear the truth. It is the secret. Oh my gosh. It really is. I mean, I feel like, okay, go back for you. And when you would do that, I mean, it had to be hard for you. It was so hard. And it's, we all know that.

We all know we have this. We have the devil in our. in our mind that's feeding us lies. And when those lies get really strong and really loud, it can be really hard to drown them out. Yeah. And so my goal with my psychiatrist every week was just like, let's see if we can drown out the voices a little bit more.

That's good. I like that. And it was. I like that goal. Yeah. Yeah, just a little bit more. But I would try to get more people. And it was so uncomfortable to tell someone this is what I'm feeling.

Like, but to have them speak truth back to you is so powerful. and it just kind of builds your army until you're strong enough to kind of handle it on your own, which I don't think we ever are. I don't think we're supposed to be, right? It's a gift to need each other, and we don't have a lot of need for each other in our culture. But this morning I spoke at an event with about a thousand people, and this woman, they were yelling out like the lies that they believed, and a woman up front was like, I believe I'm unlovable.

And I asked her first. I was like, do you, are you a brave person? And she was like, yes. I was like, would you come up here? And all I did was face her to the crowd. And this is a crowd that works together and all knows each other. And I said it, so she just shared she's unlovable. I want everybody in the room to just say what they see in her.

And I mean, the whole room erupted by saying the most beautiful, unbelievably honoring things. A lot of them know her. And she's teary and she's shaky. I'm like, I don't think you were this brave. I really overwhelmed her. But the whole room, two things happened. One thing happened for her, which was maybe this isn't true. Like maybe this thought I always have isn't true.

And for the room, it was so obviously untrue. It was so obviously untrue. And it made them question their own lie too. Because when they're thinking, that's so not true about someone else, then it kind of makes you go, well, maybe. Mine isn't true either. And I think that only can happen in community. Like what they did for her today was powerful.

Like it jars and jostles that lie that's been there really comfortably for a long, long time. But it also kind of jarred their own because it was like, you know, maybe mine's not true either. Something you speak about a lot, Andrew, is that idea of like getting out of your own head. So that makes me think when you start pouring into others, you start pouring into others, you start you stop thinking about yourself and like ruminating on the bad thoughts and it's like when you start pouring into others it almost gets reciprocated and it's just like it's how it should be it's how it should be and i do i think like one of the things i would say that's changed so much in me over the years so i love what your therapist said that that there's you know at some point we're just trying to to get the

lies out more like just a little bit more i love that line and that is that is a little bit of is kind of what it's like because you're in process and these have really dug deep roots in our lives and in our minds. But if I look back at my mind 15 years ago and what I thought about, totally. I thought about myself, my failures. When I walked in a room, I thought of my insecurities.

Like that was my brain. And if I think about my brain now, it's so much more full of other people. And I think that is freedom. I think it really is. Like Timothy Keller has a book called the freedom of self-forgitfulness. Is that what it's called?

The freedom of self-forgitfulness. And, man, that's a good line, right? Just that. It's like the book preaches, just the title right there. Yeah. Sean, which of those three lies, the worthlessness, unlovable, helpless, would you say you're prone to?

All of them? I'm an overthinker. I'm anxious. So, like, all of them. But I would say my whole life, like the milestone moments in my life, in my life were always worthless, like the I am worthless, because everything for me was always another, get to another milestone, get to another metal career stage level.

And Kay, let's, because everybody's fascinated by this right now, that you would ever feel that way. So let's just go to your first goal, because that's the, you know, epitome. What did it feel like? And how fast was it disappointing? Oh, I mean, immediately. Wow. But I, my story was very, very beautiful because I had a coach who could care less about medals.

And he taught that from day one. Awesome. Oh, it was, it was the greatest gift of my life. Wow. Because even, and this is like a whole different conversation, but even standing on a gold medal podium at the Olympics, we were both giggling because we knew it wasn't my best. Wow. So we were both as a team more proud of a silver medal that I won because it was a better. Yeah. So the metal thing didn't really matter, but I will never forget my like little moment that you were talking about when I signed with an agent for the first time.

Pressure. It was the first time I had to weigh and I was 12 years old. I know. I had to weigh the monetary value of getting a scholarship versus earning money. And so it was the first time my brain switched towards I have to now succeed. Yes. And I have to now make money if I want to go down this college route. like voluntarily because I was forfeiting the eligibility. And I just remember that. That was the first time I brain switched to business mode. And I just started striving for it. What would you say is yours? Worthless. Yeah, which like, I guess in some ways I'm like,

okay, well, I guess maybe that's the reason that you and I would like credit any of our performance to like, hey, let's just keep going. Because it's not, you know, and so maybe that's a positive side effect at a certain extent where it's like he well i know yeah that's what i want to ask y'all is i mean i live wondering too like there's a lot of the things i've accomplished in life for the glory of god good of people out of my woundedness yeah yeah it's a tough question i guess but i mean no i want to ask you i would say yeah worthlessness and my moment would be um as sad as it is but it's like when when my brother started uh playing football and he was really good and then he's

he like was discouraged because his college career didn't pan out like it could have. Yeah. I was like, oh, shoot, now I need to do this to, I don't know, like justify or correct whatever situation like for him, for me. And then it's like not out of that pure motivation of I love football. I love playing the game. You know what I'm saying? It shifts a little bit and you feel the pressure.

But to your point about like you and your conversation with. your dad. It is, tell me how I shouldn't be discouraged by, by being a parent myself. How easily it happens. Yeah, because you're like, you could be the best parent in the world and they have just this slight little interaction with somebody who, you know, is at school or a coach with wherever. That's right. And you're like, oh, shoot. I can't insulate them like that. You know, I'm like, dang, well, what are we doing then? Yeah. Well, we're teaching them to be human and how to live in a broken world. And I think the greatest gift you can give your kids is just to wrestle in front of them, especially the older, you know, based on their age. To be honest, like, yeah, I struggle with that

too. I mean, with my daughter Kate, it's like, dang it. Like, you got that for me. It's like, we talk about it. It's not something like, oh, let's fix this for you. It's, it's, let's lean into this together because I struggle with that too, you know? And I just think we're all struggling our way home, you know? It's not, it's not clean. It's not easy. It's messy. And that gives me a lot of hope. There's a great book that's one of the most famous books in the world.

If you've never heard of it, it's okay. You are under a rock. But it was called Outside of the Bible. I think it sold like next after the Bible throughout history. It's an old book and it's a fable. It's called Pilgrim's Progress. And I cannot tell you how deeply that book has ministered to me because it's this guy, ironically, or metaphorically, named Christian.

and he goes through his life. And he actually has faith early in the book. So he trust Jesus. He knows God. And then he sets out on his journey, his life, and he falls into a pit and he's in tar and he can't get out. And then he gets locked in a castle and he had the key the whole time, but he didn't know it and he was there forever.

And then he goes to this amusement park and he gets addicted to many things and he's there. You know, and I can't tell you how great. Obviously that book has been for so many people's life. But for me, I just, I think I learned somewhere that everything is supposed to go up into the right. And that that was how it was supposed to go. And if it doesn't go that way, that there's trouble. But that book is such a better reflection of how it's going to go for your kids and how it's going to go for all of us, right? And I think what you want is for them to never feel alone. So they are going to go in the pit. They're going to believe a lie. they are going to, you know, at times be addicted to affirmation or worse.

And what you know is like, I'm not going anywhere. Like the power of just not leaving the room no matter what. That is probably one of the most healing things in my life is that I have people that don't leave the room and won't no matter what. And so I think that's deep down our kids' fear. is that at some point they could do something or say something or not hit a mark and we'd be gone or we wouldn't love them in the same way. And I think that's the best thing you can do for them is just be like, nope, you can't ever lose it. Like I'm here forever. And that's a gift.

That's beautiful. That's actually something I have said to all three of my children since the day they were born, like rocking them to sleep. But I will say to them every night and said no matter what you do no matter who you are. I will always love you. And there's nothing that could ever change that. And God will always love you. And we, I say it more now because we're getting into those ages where some not big life mistakes because I don't think that's possible at our age yet. But their figure not how to disobey as they all do. There are some big things happening where I'm like remind, like I remind you. Like we can be frustrated, we can be mad, we can be disappointed. But that never changes.

I still love you more than anything in the whole entire world. Yeah. And I always will. It's magic. But I think something else that I was thinking about as you were saying that, I do think we live in like the messiest time of history.

I mean, with all social media and the voices and opinions. Such a hard time to raise kids. Yeah. But I also think we live in a time where we are more comfortable than ever before in voicing our vulnerabilities and our weaknesses. and bringing them to the forefront, I do think before, like, the generations above us never admitted wrongdoing.

Like, it was always, I'm not going to go to a therapist. I'm not going to, like, I am strong. I'm, like, there's no weakness here. And I think we've over-corrected to a certain extent, but also we've corrected to the point where even our six-year-old will bring to us. She's like, I'm feeling not confident today. Oh.

And to have that awareness. safety, yes. It is so beautiful. And I do think it's the only thing that might save us in this over-opinionated world is having that ability to say, I am affected today by whatever it is. And I need your support. Outside of your psychiatrist going back to Little Sean, did you share it with your parents? Did you like body struggle or body image issues, anything like that?

No, I was stereotypical. I held it in. I will do everything on my own. I've been that way until I was just about a few years ago. Yep. I did it until I met this guy. And he's the one who coached it out of me. He's super vulnerable.

I know. What I'm vulnerable? Yeah, you can tell him. Like his face. You can just see it. You're just so, like, philosophical. Everything is like, why? But why?

But why would you do that? And he didn't let it be. He wanted to know. That's so sweet. What does that make you feel that you kind of brought that out in her? That's so sweet. I think we're a good team. We're a great team.

Yeah. I love living life with her. I am curious, though. So back to the question, well, no, no. I mean, to your point about the awareness and talking about it, is the goal to just be aware

of the lie that I'm believing? Hey, it goes a long way, but no. The goal is to believe the truth. But I think learning the lie was decades long, possibly. Hopefully some people listening.

It hasn't been. But often it is decades long. So learning the truth. And the truth is big. The truth isn't a Bible verse or a compliment about you. Like the truth is your security and who you are because of God. It's the security of who God is and how he loves you. The truth is so big.

It's vast. You know, I often say truth is a person and a place. We think it's a verse. We think it's something that you know and understand. And once you understand it, then you're fixed. And I wish it were that easy. but but you know Jesus said I'm the way the truth and the life and so he is truth like knowing him and having a relationship with him is part of that healing and and I say it's a place because I think

the kingdom of this world which the Bible calls it which is an interesting phrase and he talks about the prince of this world as well which is the enemy and so there's this whole mentality and even if you don't believe in God and even if you think I sound crazy I would just say doesn't it feel like there's something underneath all this darkness? Like doesn't it feel almost strategic? And I would say most people are like, yeah, it feels like there's an agenda. Like there's something. And I would just say, yeah, there's evil at work.

And it has a plan and it wants deeply for you to be in bondage for all your life. And so the goal for sure is freedom. And freedom comes from understanding truth. And in scripture, it says in John that you will know the truth and the truth will set you free. So that's a promise. But I would say we read that verse and we think truth is just one verse. It's like, no, it's a whole way of thinking and living. And so the place that it is is the kingdom of God.

And you can go there any time and you can in your own mind go, I don't have to measure up. You know, like these weeks for me is, you know, pressure, sell books. You know, there's a standard now like I'm hit New York. times several times and so it's like you know my publisher would love that all the people I work with my team they would love that I would love that and I also know that that is not the game that I'm playing for and I can go in my own mind and go okay in the kingdom of God does it matter nope what matters that I am loved I'm safe I'm secure and I'm obeying God and and that feels like enough like Was this obedience for me? Yes.

And is he already delighted in me? Yes. And that is a new way of living and thinking that's really freeing. And we don't have to, you know, over here, yeah, you got to hit the mark. Over here in this kingdom, in the world, you've got to make sure everybody likes you. You've got to protect yourself from all the evil and the heart. And it's just really exhausting. That's such a funny perspective because we're about to come out with our

our first book. And you just saying, I've hit the New York Times bestseller list several times, and now there's a standard. It's like, it's the classic, it's the classic case of like, you know. Silver's never not. Yeah. Once you hit gold. I mean, it's just human nature. And I think, you know, I mean, I'm sure people listening to us are like, poor them, you know, poor, poor medalists in New York Thai. I would just say if, if you're going when I can't hit the mark that I even set, I would say, don't worry. Like, you said, you said, you said, immediately it didn't feel great. I'm like, that's right.

Like that's how we think it's going to feel better. But it never feels as good as we hope. When it comes to the moving line of like ambition, how do you balance ambition and faith and worth? Because I do think ambition is wonderful. And we were intended to have ambition to give back to this world. But where do you draw the line of what's too much? versus what's biblical versus what does give back to God and what is not.

Yeah. I read a great book when I was in my 20s called Holy Ambition. And it's by Chip Ingram. And it's a great book. I would encourage anybody to get it. It really shifted my mindset on this, that he really built us to dream dreams and to set goals and to be driven. All of that is good.

It's just what's your end game. You know, and I think for me, that's everything. Like when my endgame is helping others, then guess what? Like this week, I got to share this message with an 18-year-old girl who cried and said, you know what, all my life I felt like my dad loves my older sister more than me. And she said that in front of her friends. And it was so brave. And she felt all of their love and their connection.

And she, by the end, was laughing and smiling and just felt, I think, I think relief to say it out loud. It helped her. You know, and I'm like, okay. Like, that's the game I'm in. You know, I'm not in the game of numbers. And I can't control that anyway, right? And so I think when you know you're in game,

then you can feel the peace that comes with, did I obey? Did I do what I was supposed to do? Yeah. But I think God loves our big dreams and our creativity. crazy stuff. I just think he's like, seeking first the kingdom of God. All these other things are going to be added to you. And so, you know, I always use the phrase, the glory of God and the good of people. Like, is what we're doing? Is the end goal of what we're doing, the glory of God and the good

of people? And that just helps kind of sift away what shouldn't be there. As you've, I mean, you are a global icon. I mean, the mission, I believe, of events like the Gather 25, event that you do, which is 25 hours of prayer, is that right? Yeah. Is to unite the global church, which is a massive ambition, right? Yeah. Have you found that as you've grown your ambition or your platform or influence, have the lies also grown?

Or have they, you know, because you'd think it'd be. It's so ironic like this book, it brought out all of my 12-year-old self. Like it was, I mean, obviously it was probably strategic. dick for the on the enemy's part i i've never felt more inadequate and scared than this last year of my life and i've never seen god do more through my life which is i mean i don't even know what to do with that theologically well so when you confront a lie what's your what's your next step what's the path forward so one thing i mean you mentioned it earlier like being aware of it is more power than you think because most people will never notice it all their lives. So it's a big

moment when someone's like, like today, a guy walked up to me after I spoke and he was weeping. He's in his probably young 40s. He was crying uncontrollably. Nothing gets me like a guy, a 40-something crying. Yeah. And I'm like, what is it, man? And he was like, I have believed I'm worth us my entire life. and I mean, he's just heave ho-khan. And I say to him, okay, you know, what shifts? And we prayed. I mean, to me, it is, there's a few things. First, to know that, like, I don't know if he ever realized it before today.

I don't know if he'd ever, I know he's never said those words out loud until today. You could tell, just the way he reacted. And so that really is the beginning of something. And then what you do with that is you tell somebody. You say it out loud. And I say it out loud often. So, you know, I say it out loud to my girlfriends. Like I'll start a, you know, a moment when we're hanging out together and go,

okay, guys, help me here. Because I think I might be processing this or I might be hurt about this because of the lie, I believe. So I'll use it in my language to share what I'm struggling with or what I'm going through. And that, you can't believe how powerful that is because it's, It gives freedom for everybody else to go, yeah, okay, maybe it gives grace and freedom because maybe I'm doing this thing out of a lie I've been believing. I think almost everything we do came from something when we were five or 12 years old.

And then I really believe this is spiritual. And so I'm a big believer in bold prayer and letting people pray for you. And a friend did this for me this morning. she sent me a prayer I mean ironically for my voice she sent me a prayer for any way the enemy is is attacking me right now and I mean it was so

powerful and I just read it out loud and I would just say John Eldridge has great prayers if you're like where would I begin John Eldridge on his app Wild at Heart you can download there's a section called prayers and they're really crazy they're really bold they're very spiritual if you're not used to praying like that

but but they're helpful and I really do believe it's it's breaking the agreement we've made that to use john's language where it's breaking the agreement we've made with with a lie saying no more like i'm not going to continue to agree with this anymore so i had a mentor years ago who had us put together uh like an identity statement which i never i never like written down who andrew is past my resume love that and i didn't know what else to do except for like look at what the Bible says about me, which is like,

which is actually crazy encouraging process. It's like, I don't know why you wouldn't want to buy in to that or like believe that where you're like, okay, more than conquerors. Yeah, there's a lot of fire. The God of the universe that created all this made me for such a time as this.

You're like, okay, like he wrote that about everybody, yes, but also about me specifically. Right. I'm curious, do you view it? Like, is it a choice? Absolutely. Yeah. Yes.

I mean, I love what you're saying because it is a choice. We can believe whatever we want to believe, right? We all know that. It's true. And so once you recognize it as something unhealthy that has been there, that it's a belief system, right? And you can dismantle it the same way it got built. So oftentimes a lie is built with the wisdom.

of something and then it grows with evidence because then somebody will say something and somebody else will say something and all of a sudden you're like oh that's true that's me like I'm I'm defective like I keep messing things up that's me and then God's like actually I made you I prepared good works for you to do an advance that you were going to do for my glory all of these ideas that are so fixed and true and solid and not movable but what we're we, yeah, we have to choose to believe him for sure. This is a big question. Apologies in advance.

I love your big questions. You, I've been such a fan of yours since we last spoke, and it's been so cool to see the work that you do, the people that you impact, my family members included, me included. Who would you say your God is? Who is Jenny Allen's God? How would you describe that? Great question. That might be my favorite question I've ever gotten.

he is my best friend he's so safe he I'm just going to be really candid here so I'm trying to mind my theology but I'm just going to tell you like how I experience him he is wild he he scares me lots of days I feel um I feel like where where did you get that like where why are we going here what are we going to do next um he feels he feels he feels adoring I always have this kind of secret feeling that I'm his favorite, and I know that's not the logic, correct. But I think I am. He's safe in that he, I keep bringing him.

I mean, even last week, I was in my car. And I was like, Lord, I will sell anything you want me to sell. I will repent of anything you want me to repent of. I will give up anything you want me to give up. And he's like, I want you to give up this and this. I'm like, dang, okay. that was okay that wasn't what I was thinking you were going to say you know and I just I feel like he he is kind but he's also strong and he wants he wants he's so he is so passionate for my freedom

more than I am for myself I think about my dad growing up who we have a great relationship and I love him and he loves me so much but like all parents there were holes there and I think of God is like, I look over at him. I'm like, am I your favorite? Am I the apple of your eye? And he's like, yeah, yeah, you are. Kid? Yeah, you're my favorite. And I think that thing that we all are craving is found in him. And I say that story specifically, because that's what I wanted, you know? And I just wanted to walk in the room and be like somebody's favorite. I wanted to walk in the room and be like, I just am so glad you showed up. You didn't have to do anything to be here. Nothing. And then out of that, We've done so much fun things.

We've done so many fun things together. But it's out of it. It's not, it's not, I don't ever feel like anymore that he, I miss some disappointment. I feel like, man, he likes me and loves me so much. And if I just sit down in my room today and don't leave it for a long, long time, he likes me the same as if I'm leading a global gathering. I really feel that way. And I think out of that I've,

lived a way more free life than what I was living. Thank you. That almost brought me tears. I appreciate that. Thanks. Thanks for asking us. It was good to hear. I could just listen to everything.

I'm like, it just feels good. It feels so good. It's surprising. This guy, I speak at colleges a lot, and this college kid walked up to me a few weeks ago, seven foot tall, tears falling down his face that he didn't white boy. All these men crying. It makes me melt.

And so he comes up, tears down. on his face and he was like Jenny I just didn't know God left me oh my gosh it was that simple I was like oh man that's a bad thing to miss you know but it's like everybody's walking around thinking God's so disappointed in that there's been so many thoughts that I've had throughout this but like that being one of them of why is it so hard to convince people that they don't have to do anything to be loved I feel like we we do live in a world in a time where it's like you have to mind your peas and cues and cues and you can't break any rules and if you break a biblical law then you'll never be loved again and it's like

where did we lose the foundational belief that that is all false like he loves us just as we are yeah yeah and that's where we start yeah i mean romans a1 there's no condemnation for those who are in christ i love that verse i love that verse i preach that verse a lot i think that has not shaped the church, I think, you know, the right answer is the reality of Jesus is required, right? Like we don't want God to be a God that just says every sin is okay with me, you know, come on end because then child abusers like aren't held accountable. You know, there's no. So there's a sense of we want a just God.

We just don't want them to be just toward us, right? Like we want to be okay. And I would say, so that that's the gospel, is that. We are sinners. We've all fallen short. And he died for us. And he made us right with God. Now where I think the church has struggled is to believe that in Jesus, there really is no condemnation.

And gosh, if that were true, we would bring everything quickly and loudly the way I watch these college students do. I mean, they just confess their sin and yell it out. It's wild. and they really like put they test that verse they're like is there no condemnation you know and so it's almost like a muscle we have to practice it like practice being loved practice experiencing grace because it's hard to believe and it is so different than the world it's so different in the world i also speak in prisons and it's so funny like they get the gospel better than anyone else on earth they know that they've screwed up like they're most

of them, some of them are like, not guilty, you know. But most of them are like, yeah, I killed. Like, I did it, you know. And it's so crazy. And they're so honest. And when I share the gospel there, oh my gosh, I wish we could just like show pictures to everybody. We could, we could do it on YouTube, I guess. Yeah, we'll send them to you. And it's these women. I was in a maximum security prison in Las Vegas. And 200. That's for you. Thank you. My gosh. It was awesome. That's amazing. Oh, it's my delight with God behind bars. And 200 women came in this room and had their arms folded. And I get up and they kind of still have their arms folded and I'm teaching.

And I ask them, I'm like, what did you do? Like, yell it out. Like, what's your sin? Just yell it out. And I was like, if you do it all together, you can't hear each other. But you better do it all. You know, you better all do it. And so they did it.

And I mean, and I was like, yeah. And God died for that. And Jesus, like, he loves you. And they're just crying. I mean, 115 of them got baptized that night. And it was just magic. I really do think our problem is we're so afraid of our own weaknesses. And we feel so much shame.

And when you say it out loud and when you are honest about it, it breaks something. It, like, it is powerful. I mean, I've had a 60-year-old woman come up to me and say, I had an abortion when I was 13 I've never told anybody and I'm like you've held on to that that's a lot of decades girl like man that's not a way to live

you know so I just think if we really believe that then we trust it and we say the things we need to say and it's shocking the freedom that can come from it shocking do you think the lies are the same for men and women well psych 101 would say yes

but I think women are more quickly aware Oh, it's too close to home, Jenny. I can't tell you how many men are like, I don't have one. And then I talk to him for about 15 minutes and they're like, yeah, yeah, I do. That's funny. Too close to home, baby. About what? Well, that's pretty much every conversation.

I know. Literally every conversation. She asked me, Andrew, how are you feeling? I'm like, I don't, what do you mean? I think we literally got in a scuffle last night because I was like, I can clearly tell something's going on. Yeah. And he's like, nothing's going on. I'm like, okay, I did that last week with Zach.

Yeah, whenever you're ready to talk about it. I'll be here. That was another thing we learned from our previous conversation. You had mentioned marriage counseling. I think, I think back then we said, yeah, we'll try to go like once or twice a year. I don't know. We had our third kid and we went to the 16 week intensive that was like once a week. And honestly, it was magical.

If anybody ever needs it, it's called Rock House and it's biblically based. I have been looking for this. People ask me this question all the time. Oh, it changed our life. So, just to give you the elevator pitch, you go as a couple. Yeah. It's marriage and parenting. Yeah.

You can do just marriage or just parenting or both combined. We did both combined. They separate you, so you never do counseling together, which I was so skeptical about. I was like, we have to be together to work through our issues. And they put wives with women and husbands with men. And it's 16 weeks. You go for two hours, once a week, for 16. makes. There's homework. And every question you go through, they don't give you an opinion. They say,

let's open up the Bible. Let's see what the Bible says about your specific question and your grievance, in your issue, and you pray together. It's all about forgiveness, which is like, the whole thing is just forgiveness. Yep. And you're like, wow, that is applicable to marriage, you know? Like big things, little things, you got to forgive them. And they would have you come in every week with a list. They said, write down the entire list. You're saying this was after your third kids. If you were in the haze of, oh yeah.

That kid's only two years. So that was, that was beautiful. Don't do the timeline. Don't look that way. It was quickly after the third kid. But we literally Googled biblical marriage counseling and I can't imagine.

It was the most beautiful thing we were doing. So thank you again. Yeah. And that's because of you. Thank you. That's amazing. Yeah. Something that you said,

which made me think, just, please don't stop your amazing work, but you said more than ever in your life, you feel more convicted now about like your insecurities and your, then you have before. But I also think you're doing bigger things for the glory of God than you've ever done.

And I do believe even in my friends that I've heard, the closer to God we get, the louder the enemy gets. Well, yeah. I mean, he's just deeply wanting to shut us down, right? Oh my gosh. I wish I thought of that every day. I know. I do think of it.

And when I know it's happening, I always ask for prayer. and praise God, like your psychiatrist said, it's like it's getting shorter and shorter. Like, I'm dealing with it faster and faster. And yeah, but I wonder if it will always be there. I mean, my counselor is like, I think you might be 80 and you're still like fighting the same thing. But it's not in the same way. It's not in, it has no power over me. It really doesn't.

It hasn't stopped me from any good work that God prepared in advance. That's good. But yeah, there's just this nagging. It's like a taunt. That's what I call it. Like, it's like the enemy just kind of taunt you. Like, oh, you know, that could have been better. Mm-hmm.

Even worse. And I write about this. It's like a report card. Mm-hmm. It's like a, that was a B-plus. And it's like, what is sad? Like, what if, like, this sweet conversation, if I left and I was like, eh, that was like a B-plus for me, C,

C-plus, when that wasn't the point. Like, I adore you to. Like, I could just hug you and I love you both so much and being in your world. And that was so delightful. Like, this has been so fun. And we miss that when we're judging everything. You know, we're so hard on ourselves. And so I love your coach.

I love your coach. It's not about the medals. It's not about the report card. It's like, go out there and have fun and like do your best. And Sean, I mean, watching you back then, that's what it felt like. I think the world loved it because it was like, I still remember watching you like, like when you would like do your little thing right before you tumble and, and you would smile so big.

And it felt like we all had fun with you, which is a direct result. And there was bondage and there were lies and there were things. And there was a coach that said, go out there and have fun and do your best. And that is, I think that's so the Lord for us. It's like, it's just not about that. I asked my counselor one time, I said, I told him about the report card I keep. He was like, man, that doesn't sound like God. And I was like, I think it does.

I think it does. I think it does. There's some verses. And I like showed him verses that I thought sounded. He was like, yeah, Jenny, I think you might be misunderstanding or misinterpreting those verses. And it was, it just was, it changed my whole mindset about him. Like, that's not him.

Like, he's not standing over us, like waiting to give. us a grade. He's delighting in us and wants to help and help y'all parents and help you raise those kids. And, you know, we work with God. It's really fun. Yeah. You got to keep gone. I know it's a battle and it sounds like the last year's been tough, but we're big fans of you. Again, we've been impacted. So, you know, at a steady pace. Just keep doing the Lord's work. With y'all too. I mean, same thing. So grateful for both of you. Yeah. The way God's using. you. So beautiful. Let's not wait six years till the next time. Please. Yes, definitely. Next time we need to have a meal together.

Yes, please. Yeah, I also want to go to one of these events that you do. It sounds like everyone's tears crying. Can I go to prison with you? I want to do that. I would love it. I'm going soon. I would love it. Come on. Things I never thought I'd hear. Can I go to prison with you? Yeah. Let's go to prison girls. I'm dumb. It's awesome. Okay. For those listening that want to read Jenny Allen's new book, The Lie You Don't Know You Believe. We'll link it down below. Also, you're on tour for the next couple weeks. We'll link that down below and you're busy. So thank you for making time for us. This is a treat. That to the light. Yeah. Thank you.