Couple Things with Shawn and Andrew - What can God do for you?!

Episode Date: March 5, 2026

In this episode we dive into one of humanity’s oldest and biggest questions: faith. If thousands of religions exist, what does it really mean to choose a God? Is faith something we inherit, something we discover, or something we decide? This isn’t about winning an argument — it’s about exploring the deep questions that shape how we live our lives. Whether you're religious, spiritual, agnostic, or atheist, this conversation invites you to think critically about what gives life meaning. Join the discussion in the comments! Love you guys, Shawn & Andrew Check out www.https://covesmart.com/EASTFAM or use code EASTFAM at checkout for up to 60% off your first order! Sign up and get 10% off at www.https://BetterHelp.com/EASTFAM Join at www.https://RocketMoney.com/eastfam Head to www.https://Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody? Welcome back to a couple things. With Sean and Andrew. I think I'm really nervous for this episode. I'm really excited, though I'm nervous that it won't be communicated well. I've been thinking about this episode for literally three years. I have a Google Doc that I... Which he won't even give to me because he's like, it's too much of a cluster.

What I've done over the last literal three years, almost like how we wrote our book, is just anytime I have a thought about this topic, I just throw it in there. and it's not necessarily organized yet. So I've gone through the last week and tried to segment it out. One of the main reasons, I know you've been thinking about it for three years, but one of the main reasons you wanted to do this from what I am aware of

is we did an episode with Caitlin Bristow on her podcast. That's right. Where we were talking about special forces and for lack of a better way to say this, but we got derailed a little bit because we started talking about God and how Caitlin's kind of on this journey and she's like really curious

and she's like, but why believe it all? Yeah. Especially when you can't prove it to be right, which led you to want to do a podcast of our own, kind of talking about the same thing, about our faith. Well, you know, we did this whole press tour after the Special Forces show,

and we're getting ready to do a whole other press tour for our book. And inevitably what happens is you talk about the same old subject, get asked the same questions, but in that episode, Caitlin was talking about how she's very spiritual and she's exploring what that means for her, which then just got my wheels turning about

what I think is a broader trend in society. Because so that episode, by far, the most popular portion of that episode was not us talking about the TV show as us talking about that spiritual topic, which then made me want to do this episode. And then as I was sorting through it, trying to figure out what the right way to position this is,

because I'm not like trying to, I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm more hoping to communicate what the day-to-day impact of faith is. And then also. On our lives. In our lives. And also share why we have faith in the things that we do. and because of the multiple reasons,

but one being the day-to-day impact it can have. So I have broken this episode that I am titling, what can God do for you into three different segments, sections? Section one is what is faith and how we have it already in the everyday, okay? Let me start with saying, I kind of feel completely inept in, like, speaking on this, which is interesting. Well, that's why I think I'm excited for how this dynamic is.

I know these are all my random thoughts that I've written down, but you add a lot of clarity to my thoughts, and that's why we're a good team. So cut me off we're needed, but I'm excited to kind of work through this together. So the first question is what? Section one is what is faith and how we already have it, how everyone already has it in their day-to-day, okay?

Section two is why having that faith that already exists, and everyone's life, why having faith in the spiritual unseen realm matters and how it can steer your life. And then the third section is why the Christian God, to me, is the most compelling thing to have faith in. Okay. Now, you might hear this. If you're like a devout Christian, which I'm sure we have many of those listeners, you might, hear a title like what can God do for you and think that's so selfish maybe heretical even because I kind of was like yeah yeah 100% but you know because in Christian faith we would argue that like it's not God's responsibility duty reason behind faith to serve us our job is to serve him

correct and as a one popular pastor says he is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Yes. And so, but there's this idea of satisfaction in that for the individual. So it's like, there's still this impact that God has on satisfying an individual. So part one, I think, feeds into our conversation with Caitlin. We can either choose to cut that clip in here or reiterate the same thing, which was this idea of, Caitlin asked us why, why do we believe when we can't prove it, when we can't like, when you can't tangibly know that it's real, right?

That's kind of the argument is there's no, there's no way you can actually know that there's a heaven and know that there's, you know, it's all to a certain extent a little ambiguous. Yes. And before, I think that'll be more a section two conversation. Section one is literally how we believe in uncertainty. already and there's different levels of faith let's let's say it that way so there's there's the faith that tomorrow you'll still be around and the sun will still rise and there's this expectation that like yeah humanity or yourself literally humanity i'm talking like at the fundamental level

there is a certain amount of faith that tomorrow is going to happen both at the global scale but also at the individual scale like yeah yeah you like my dad did you could pass away in the middle of the night but you make plans for things that will happen tomorrow and next week and next month and we we were just talking about our school calendar we have fall break planned out we have winter break and we have spring break and we have all this you're making plans on the back of faith are you yes as i'm not you were expecting to to be around for fall breaks that we can take that true trip. You know what I'm saying? I am, okay, let's talk about this. I think my mindset is a little different than yours.

Say, say more. I'm curious. I think I, I think I go about our planning style and process in life and planning these things out, but also very actively understanding I have no control in the say as to whether I make it there or not to a certain extent. That's beautiful. And if I operate in life with this understanding of like I will you know make it to win a break and I'm expecting it's like

I'm not owed that by anybody no matter what anyone believes I'm not owed another day yeah and so I live in a gratefulness of if this were the last day because we have no idea what will happen

tomorrow right we could we can hypothetically map out a trajectory of, you know, there's enough data to suggest what tomorrow might look like. However, we don't know a certainty. I think that's beautiful. That's great. And I think you might hold on more loosely to future expectations than other people.

As do I. I hold on super loosely, like, so much so that I don't really even plan. But, and I don't want to get too ambiguous with this because I don't want this to be like some ultra-philosophical thing. That's why I'm trying to talk about this in such practical ways. But cryptocurrency, let's take this. So we have talked about plans. Faith happens when it comes to money as well. People talk about cryptocurrency and like, you know, remember the NFT trend when people were buying and selling these little digital pictures of things. And then there's question as, well, what even money? Well, it's a store of value or whatever. You know, they use all these terms.

fundamentally, it is a faith that this dollar is worth something. And if I give it to you, you'll accept it. And I'll be able to essentially barter in exchange for whatever good or service I need. You know what I'm saying? There's a faith in the whole system of that working as well. Okay. I had a moment the other day that made you realize how much I rely on having eyes on our home. I was out running errands and got a notification and normally that would have stressed me out. But instead of guessing or worrying, we just opened the app and could instantly see

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for up to 60% off your first order. And if you get a survey, please let them know you heard about Cove from this podcast. There's a faith that when you're driving in your car and you come to an intersection and you have a green light, I think there's a faith or an expectation

that other drivers are trained enough and aware enough that, hey, They have a red light and they're going to pay attention. So there's an author, Malcolm Gladwell, who wrote a book called What the Dog Saw, I believe. It was one of his more recent books. And it talks about how our society operates on this trust, this social interaction, mostly in social interactions where I don't necessarily have to verify everything that you say. or when someone pays me a dollar, I don't have to check every single dollar for it not being fraud.

Or if someone says, hey, I'm going to meet you for lunch at 12 at this restaurant, that they'll be there. You know, like there's all of these inherent levels of faith that we have. Okay? So let's just say that's like level one, the base of the pyramid. There is, which you need to, in order to like not be locked in your room, a conspiracy theorist questioning everything and you're not functional

because you can't go out and drive because you don't trust that anybody else can drive well or you don't go use money because you don't trust that whole system and like those are just a handful of examples that I think apply beyond. Again Malcolm Gladwell talks about this

where it's like there's certain things where being an ultra conspiracy theorist and questioning that fundamental trust actually pays off, but most of the time it's like, it's an inhibition or a hurdle where you're like, no, the more trust you have, the more smoothly you can flow through life like that. Okay. That's level one. Faith.

Level two, faith. We're not yet to Section 2 of the show, but we're getting there, is more of a, I believe that tomorrow will happen and my faith will. impact what tomorrow looks like. So I tell the story all the time. Vanderbilt football historically has not been a good team, right? Last year, Vanderbilt Football, who's, you know, a lot of times the joke of the Southeastern Conference, beat the number one team in the country, Alabama.

And we were watching this game before the game. There was no expectations. There was no faith, really, that Vandy will. beat this best team in the country. But if you looked at the quarterback, who was this key rock star player, he was jamming around, dancing, had all the confidence in the world with this faith that we're going to go out and play this game and we're going to beat this team. Doesn't matter.

What I'm proposing is, quote unquote, this level two faith is like, in order for there to be anything substantial that happens of meaning, in order for you, to change your current situation, get out of whatever unfortunate upbringing you had in order to change from a bad team to a good team, from a bad marriage to a good marriage, from whatever, you have to have this like faith or this hope. We've talked about it as a delusional confidence that that's something that is not yet here. is not yet a reality, could be a reality. It's like borrowing from this future hypothetical reality.

And like in that process, you make it happen. With that faith, you can make that change. You know what I'm saying? If the quarterback went out there on that game and was like, oh, well, they're the best team in the country, I can't do anything, then there was zero probability that that win or that victory would ever happen. If I wake up every day in our marriage and say,

oh, today, last night was tough and today's going to be tough too, then there's zero probability that might be a good day for our marriage. You know what I'm saying? So like you have to have this glimpse of the future or this light at the end of the tunnel or this aim that you're shooting. for that you're not currently living, right? And the biblical definition of faith is, here we go. The conviction, the assurance of things hope for and the conviction of things not seen. That is the biblical definition, but I also think it's a beautiful definition of,

I am so sure that we're going to beat this team because that's what I'm hoping for. You know what I'm saying? It's not a reality yet, but we're working towards it. And in having that faith, you unlock the probability or possibility of you enacting whatever change you're striving for, whether that be good marriage

or changing your economic situation for your family or yourself or winning a football game, okay? You see how that's still faith, this underlying trust in something, but it's different than that level one of driving or using money. Are you tracking? Say something. I mean, straight out here. I'm not trying to just ramble.

I'm listening. Okay. I don't. There's a lot that you have said a lot of it. I don't know if I necessarily agree with. Okay. But I'm here. Okay.

And I'm... I want to see where this goes. Okay. This episode is sponsored by BetterHelp. March always feels like a really meaningful month because it's a chance to pause and celebrate women. And just recognize how much they carry every single day. Let's celebrate women. I'm all on board with that.

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Your emotional well-being matters. Find support and feel lighter in therapy. Sign up and get 10% off at betterhelp.com slash eastfam. That's betterhelp help.com slash east fam. Please throw any questions or stop me. I think you're blank, you're using the word faith to blanket a lot of different things. Such as. What's the difference between faith and hope? And also your argument that if I wake up today and say, you know, it might be another bad day

that does not take away zero probability of something good happening. And if that quarterback didn't have the right mindset, that doesn't mean there's zero probability that they can't still succeed. because they're, he's not the only person in the equation. What's that quote? Whether you think you can or you think you can't, you're right, you know? That's, that's kind of what I'm talking about with that. I know, but I think that makes the world feel very small.

And I think that makes God feel really small. Oh, I think it's the opposite. I think it's like, oh my gosh, I can change. I can change. No, I'm saying, I think you're putting a, massively added pressure on individuals when and you're putting um too much weight and like i don't think we're all that powerful i don't think one quarterback has the power to override the entire team and take your probability from having any success any success in a game to zero based off of your

mindset think about tom brady and what he did for the tampon bay buccaneer I know, but that's not having faith in the team or the world or the other team or. This is the power of faith and how it can resonate and spread like wildfire. No, I know, but if you're putting the pressure on an individual to say you have the ability solely and it's solely up to your faith alone, then that is discouraging for people. And that's why later on, whenever we talk about it, Christian faith is nice, is like, it's not about you. This is beautiful. Yes. This is Section 3. I like that. I know. But what you're saying is like very, I don't want to start this off by saying, yeah, I don't know. I just disagree with that. What, just because it's too much pressure on someone saying if you're not living your dreams, it's almost like prosperity gospelish?

like if if you have a tough marriage then it's your fault because you don't have enough faith no point taken that's interesting and that's not what I'm trying to say I'm saying if you're in a tough marriage having faith that

there's a you could turn a corner is what's necessary I'm not saying like I think it just ties into almost like our conversation we had this morning doing deans of like redemption it's not not all you. That's what's beautiful about our world.

You're saying you have to have faith to see any success. And I think you can have zero faith and go up to a stoplight and still get through the intersection, having zero faith. Do I think that's the best way to operate in life? No. But I can go through that intersection having complete. lack of faith in humanity and complete lack of trust. But that's crippling. And then you're like, there's a million things that you're having to go through.

It might be crippling. But I can still get through that intersection. Sure. But if you're trying to go through the intersection to go to a business meeting, then your mind is like not focused on the business meeting or the quote unquote higher thing. I know. You're crippled by.

At the foundational fact of what you're saying, you said there's zero probability I get through that intersection. That's false. Okay, it's correct. You're right. You're right. This is interesting and thank you. I'm not trying to put the pressure on the individual.

I do think faith is super powerful and it's like a seed that you can plant and that can spread. I've seen it time and time again in sports. This is what all of the great sports movies are about is like, hey, we're bad and then we were good because Tom Brady came or what, you know, he. is this source of hope and also carries it where it's like we're a championship team now where I go we're a championship team that then you go from a losing culture in a locker room this is what I almost did my dissertation on was like the the team culture and how it can be so easily swayed by just one individual sure and it's like how does that happen well it's someone having good or bad faith, you know?

Okay, thank you. Let's talk about now that we have discussed different iterations of faith that I think it's reasonable to say everyone has faith. Do you equate faith to trust? So...

Because I don't think it's the same thing and I don't think faith is hope. Okay, so here, here, here. hope is a future focused optimistic desire for a positive outcome right a positive hope it's a positive vision of the future faith is a deep rooted present tense conviction or belief in someone or something without needing physical proof i have faith in you i have faith in our marriage we've been faithful kind of interesting to think through the different iterations of that is the active reliance or confidence in someone's reliability.

I think they're close cousins. And it's interesting, I'm not saying I'm using these terms correctly. I am not trying to use them incorrectly. But let's just closely group all those, okay? Because I think that's somewhat fair. And in the definition of faith, biblically, is the word hope, is the assurance of things hope for and the conviction of things not seen. So they're grouped together.

Okay. So now that we have talked about section one, section two is why having faith in a god, not a specific one yet, that's section three, matters and how it can steer your life, okay? I had one of those moments recently where I looked at our spending and was like, wait, where is all of this going? Same. It's not even one big thing. It's all the little things that add up over time that you don't really notice. from day to day. That's honestly what led us to start using Rocket Money. It just gives you a clear picture of everything in one place. Rocket Money is a personal finance app that helps find

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know now. If getting a better handle on your finances is something you've been thinking about this year, this is a really simple way to start. Let Rocket Money help you reach your financial goals faster. Join at RocketMoney.com slash EastFam. That's rocketmoney.com slash eastfam. Rocketumoney.com slash east fam. You have faith in tangible things that you can see, like we talked about money, yada, yada, more material things. We have faith that are Carl's star.

We have faith, X, Y, Z. What is, I think, faith, when you have faith in something, it's almost like the ambiguity or the intangibility of it is correlated with the power of it, okay? So like having, like we talked about conceptualizing faith in the intersection is a small thing with small outcomes. Having faith in money that it works is a little bigger than the intersection has a little bigger amplification. It's a little less tangible, right? Now let's go up the level.

What are you mean faith in money? Because I also don't understand that. Maybe this is a weird YouTube crypto, like, or YouTube internet world that I'm in. Because like, you talk about money is not, having faith that money works. Money is a tangible thing that can be explained down to its source where it can be proven. Well, kind of. People are like, say, well, what is money? It's as, like, is it worth anything?

Well, as long as the government prints enough, but not too much of it. You know what I'm saying? It's like there's, there are these weird, subtle philosophical. parts of that. But that's what I'm almost trying to get at where now the most, if we're trying to find the highest iteration of faith, let's go to the least tangible or most ambiguous thing, which is like the spiritual realm. Okay. Bear with me. I'm talking through this and trying to condense three years of thoughts in a not insane way. I'm not. Also, I'm not trying to play devil's advocate.

It's the most valuable thing. Trying to organize your thoughts sometimes is fascinating. Yeah. Because the way you're making sense of it in your mind, it's like, oh, yeah. I mean, I've been thinking about it a long time. That doesn't mean I'm communicating well. Actually, with my buddy Matt, I gave a 20-minute speech on this because, and he was like, you need to tighten that up a little bit because you're not making sense.

But hopefully, maybe one person can help me out and do that. So, section two. having faith in the most ambiguous thing, which is spirituality, matters a lot and it can steer your life. Okay. So there's a quote, I said on my dad's funeral by A.W. Tozer who said, what comes into our minds when we think about God is the most important thing about us. So what comes to mind when you think about God? To some people, I would say,

it's highly varied. A lot of people have a lot of different quote-unquote gods, big G, little G, gods, okay? We all have a god. Do you want to explain what that means? I'm getting there, yeah. We all have a god, meaning we all have a thing that we spend

most of our energy working towards, whether you acknowledge it or not, okay? Maybe it's your kids, maybe it's money, maybe it's your image. there is one thing that most rules are attention and our focus and our energy. Okay. Let me put it another way. there's a lot of different games you can play in life. You can play the game of wealth. You can play the game of health.

You can play the game of power, the game of family, the game of travel. There's a lot of different styles with which you can play the game of life. You know what I'm saying? You can play the game of adventure, meaning my whole life is oriented around the thrill of skydiving,

whitewater rafting. That's what I'm saving money for. that's where I'm spending my time. That's the people I'm spending around is these adventure crew. Okay. So whatever game you're playing, I would say, is an indication of what your God is. I can completely disagree. Say more.

I think you can be playing a lot of games in life and still have an overarching umbrella of a religion or a faith in God and be living out your life pretty much to a biblical tea and still be playing different games. I think games are such a smaller, such a smaller low-hanging fruit. I agree. It does not matter which game you're playing. And that does not point in a direction of your God.

I don't think at all. I actually think I would argue that many different gods would all encourage you to be playing many different games. And you could be playing, say you're playing one game or five games in life that you just listed, I think you and I could be playing the same exact games and serving very different gods. I 100% agree.

Thank you for Section 2. No, that's great. Because we're not to Section 3 yet. No. No. You said games are a smaller part. I agree. But you just said verbatim.

the games you play are a direct indication of who you are serving. Indication. But that's false. I think. I could be a Buddhist playing the same exact games you're playing being a Christian. I agree. I could be an atheist. I would say it goes, let's talk concentric circles.

There's the individual, right? Then there's the God that that individual serves. And I think the style of which the game plays, is not the God, but it is an indication of the God, okay? So like... But how... That doesn't make sense. Based on what we just said.

If we could be playing the same exact games in life. What are you aiming for through that? You know what I'm saying? You could be a good person, whether you work at a bank versus whether you're a construction person or whatever. Like, aim, let's say the values, the foundation of the morals, could be the same despite what you're

actually doing. But that's different than what you just said. And that's the point I'm trying to make is you just cast it a wide statement net with no caveats. You just said the game you play indicates what God you serve. Or like... If you're orienting your whole life towards money, then the Bible would say. say you're serving the god of manna you can have a lot of money and not orient your life around

it i'm saying it could be an indication can you explain what you mean by that because i think there's the the bible says the god of money is manna yes i the the the so okay let let me this is easier um think about the greek mythology or the egyptian gods or the Norse gods. The Greeks had the God of the sun. They have the God of fertility. They had the God of harvest. They had the God of water.

Egyptians had, you know, all of their own gods as well. You can serve, so say, the God of money. I want to, like back then they were praying, literally on their knees praying, give me money, may I be successful in my career. yada yada. I think people still do that in a less visceral way now where they're like, I wake up, I check my bank account, I think about money, every interaction I have is can

this person help make me money? Can I get closer to that? I think you've misunderstood my question. Can you please explain what you mean by whatever game you're playing in life is an indicator of what you serve? What consumes your thought? Okay. So like, we know people that live in Colorado, I was just out west and it's so fascinating to me that I love all the mountains and the beaches and the sunshine and the weather

and the adventures that you can have I was enticed by that as a young man it's interesting to see a six-year-old person who still orientes their whole life around adventure they can be a Christian 100% or they can believe in whatever God

but to some extent they are idolizing what are you idolizing but I think that's false I think that's an assumption I'm not equating always, that's the case that like if you like adventure, you're idolizing adventure, but you can't. And I think that's the nuance in how you're phrasing this of there's a lot of nuance that you're understanding internally, that you're not voicing with this. And that's why that came across confusing.

And I'm asking questions. I think you and I are playing a lot of games in life. 100%. But how are we playing them too? So once you know the game, then how are you playing it, which is kind of the section 3. don't villainize the games in life of adventure and travel. And because stating that the game you play is an indicator of potentially what we would argue, the wrong God you're serving, is villainizing actually a lot of biblical context that's good,

like ambition and an adventure and curiosity. 100%. I never said they were good or bad. But you said they're a direct indication of what you're serving. Well, I mean, no. So I don't think it's the game. I think it's actually what value you're putting towards the game. I think it's a priority thing for sure.

Yes. Like what? You can, hey, I'm a Christian that is also ambitious. Depending on the day, what am I most concerned with? Is it me honoring God or is it me honoring my ambition or chasing my ambition? I think I do. It gets hairy. No, it's, no, appreciate that.

So there's all these different gods, right? Also, a book that changed my perspective on this was written by John Mark Comer called God, God has a name. Super interesting. He talks about how, hey, the Bible actually acknowledges that there's other gods. Talks about the God of manna. He talks about, you know, the fire contest that God had against Bale. Bail, I think, was the other God. And like, would that God put out the fire? Well, God or the Christian God did. Anyway, so there's like, there are multiple gods, kind of worth considering, which one are you spending the most time thinking about? Do you equate how you spend your time as being summarized to a game? I'm trying to use the most accurate term of like, when you orient your, when your whole life is set up in the direction of one thing.

So as we've grown in our career, we've not been concerned with money. You know what I'm saying? It has been a, we've been more, the higher up thing we've been concerned with was, are we enjoying the work we're doing? And then the higher up thing on that,

take another step up is, is this enjoyment moral? Is it honoring God, etc.? You know what I'm saying? So like, we can make money, we can enjoy the work, and we can honor God. God, are those all aligned?

That's the question. But if the whole thing is, I am here to make money, then you're out of alignment, at least, or you're either out of alignment or you're idolizing money. People have faith in nature as well. If you think about like the crystals, you know, that people have of like vibrations of, you put this by your bedside for fertility,

or you put this at the entrance for whatever, functuary, like, there's kind of this ambiguous spiritual realm that people have faith in as well, and it's like this unseen deal, okay? So that would be, and I think, what comes to mind when you think about God can get really interesting, even in the denominations of one certain religion. So I know Christianity best. You have like the prosperity gospel. What comes to mind when I think about God is a God who gives me a lot of material things or provides for me

abundantly, which is true. We believe in an abundant God too. That's not the point though, right? that's what comes to mind with those people who buy into that ideology what comes to my like uh there's certain denominations where it's like a really fire and brimstone god what comes to mind when i think about when they think about god is like if i if i do anything wrong i'm gonna get punished right so that comes with it a day-to-day impact of like don't do i'm on my tiptoes i'm not trying to make any mistakes. I don't want to go to hell. You see there's like a stark difference with how God can be perceived and how it might be impactful to the day to day. We have also, before I transition in this section three, talked about this confusion or tension of, well, are all like, are all

these different religions and cultures talking about the same God? Like, isn't that a possibility? You know, maybe Allah is the same name that they use for God or Allah is what they use for Jesus or Buddha or and maybe they're just all kind of talking about the same God, right? Just different names. But what I'm trying to get at with what comes to mind when you think about God is that each of those Buddha, the concept of Buddha as he's explained is different than the concept of Allah as he is explained is different than the concept of Jesus as he's explained. So now, section three is choose a God because you can have, you could choose to idolize or praise any God or anything or anyone, right? So choose something that has the longest, best, most,

in my mind, community-oriented side effects to making your God. Okay. So like if you say here in Section 3, okay, I believe that there's everyday faith, I believe that you should have faith in spirituality. If I want to say, okay, I'm going to, I know that I can choose to have faith in any God. Let me choose to have faith in money. you might be super successful and achieve that. And like you warranted your whole life around money.

Great, you got it. Now you're 60. You have no friends. You have no family. You have a big mansion with no one else living in it with you. Okay. That's not the good life in my mind. That is not the good life.

Okay. So the good life to me. How would you argue it's a 60 year old who has a family, lives in a big house and says, yeah this feels good that's great I'm just saying my whole argument is let me just explicitly state what I think the good life is and I'm just also just like bring the mind that you can you can live a lot of different lives you know I'm just saying I think I think you painted a bleak picture right for that scenario yeah yeah yeah what if that

person's perfectly happy isn't there's a that's great that's great great, but everyone ends up somewhere in life, just some people end up there on purpose. You know what I'm saying? That's what I'm advocating for is like, I'm not telling you you have to believe what I'm saying. You don't have to choose the God that I think is the most fruitful, but you should like do, you could choose your God intentionally. Right. And I'm also not here to define what certain gods are. So like I'm not here to try to create my own version of what the Bible's God is. So, like, that's also worth mentioning where I'm not trying to, like, say we define who God is because as Christians, God is already who he is. So, okay? In my mind, the good life is not

having a ton of material goods or having traveled the world the most amount of times. The good life is one where you're in relational harmony, you have a strong, you have a strong community of friends and family. You have meaningful work. You have inner peace. You have, and you have hope in a better future, okay?

So like, it's not capped in any way. And it's like community oriented, right? So now I'm talking about why I think the, Christian definition of God or concept of God is the most compelling. And I'll start with this idea of the Trinity, which is talked about in the Bible. You have God, the Father, God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, okay? But they're like three and one, right? It's kind of crazy to think that the Christian God inherently is a squad. It's a group of friends. It's three people. It's community. Okay? That's what the

trinity is and that's foundational i think to the christian belief it's like okay well if i want to if i want to have my life be fruitful with community i'm orienting my life around this certain god the christian god is inherently communal you track it am i getting too deep here i or am i not am i sounding like a crazy person. Let me just, let me just continue and you stop me if you need to. So number one, the Christian God is communal. Number two, he's sacrificial for the purpose of those around him. We talked all the time when we're dating that love is the willingness to sacrifice for someone. You know what I'm saying? And it wasn't even like, maybe that's Christian ideology, just like backdrop, but if love is the willingness to sacrifice,

and that is what unlocks relationships is love, right? Like you need that as part of your friendships. I love my friend. I love my brothers. I love my mom. Thus, I'm willing to sacrifice for them. This Christian God is the most sacrificial. You know what I'm saying?

There's this idea of Jesus is in heaven. like he's in utopia the best place you can imagine whatever that is and he says i'm going to leave this utopia and i'm going to go down to this broken earth has wars and people beating each other up and manipulation whatever that sacrifice to leave to voluntarily leave that and then he says i'm not just going to go there i'm going to get i'm going to like die this gruesome death you know i'm going to go there as a baby and then i'm going to die this gruesome death and I'm going to like make this sacrifice. And I'm not, I'm not here to make a historical argument.

I'm not here to make some like, um, anthropological argument. I am in some ways talking about one, the anecdotal experience that I've had personally, but also the, uh, the analogous symbolism of what, making that type of person your God can do to, in your life, right? if you're making your God the willingness to sacrifice, if you're making your God love,

then the side effects of idolizing that God will be community, friendships, deep relationships. We were just in church the other day watching baptism. I was almost brought to tears because you have 50-year-old men up there. I don't know what lives they lived. They might be super successful or they might be in the puddle of their own mess. We got a 50-year-old man who has some type of community.

Maybe they have kids. Maybe they have a wife. Maybe they have a girlfriend or whatever. People that report to them. And they're doing this silly thing where they put on these clothes that aren't like great for public viewing. It's not like fancy clothes.

It's like random little t-shirt, tucked in in a goofy way. And then they go into this pool in their clothes, which is kind of goofy and humiliating. And they get in this vulnerable position and almost like a dog showing their neck of saying, you win or I'm submitting to you. They go in this little thing and they let someone else dunk them, dunk them in this water. And then they pull them out. And it's like, I was almost brought the tears with the idea that no matter if this person's successful or if this person has made all the mistakes in the world, drug addict, criminal, whatever.

This is a beautiful, this is the door to the rest of goodness. They are humiliating themselves. They're being humble by doing this whole thing. They're not humiliating themselves. I think it's part of that, to be honest.

It's like, it's a silly... Interesting perspective. It's kind of a silly thing to do where you're like, what are we doing? in here? Like, why does this matter? And it's like, well, you're showing that you are not, you're putting your ego aside and you're like, hey, I am here to show you that I'm not like trying to make myself look the coolest or have some or innate speech or do, I'm putting my ego

aside and I'm saying I could be wrong here. I could be, and I want to live life differently. And I'm not doing it on my terms. Okay. That's to me, just like, a beautiful reflection of kind of this idea of the Christian guy, okay? I feel like as soon as the weather starts to shift a little, I get the urge to refresh everything in our house. Oh, yeah. Like lighter bedding, reorganizing spaces, and even just making things feel a little more functional.

Yeah, it's like a reset for the house, and Wayfair has been really helpful for that because you could find pretty much everything in one place. I'm talking furniture, decor, storage, all of it. Our style is kind of a mix of cozy and clean. I like things to feel warm, but still organized. And I was able to find pieces that actually fit that without having to dig through a million different sites.

We added a few things recently, some storage pieces to help keep things less cluttered, and a couple updates in the living space, and it's crazy how much of a difference that makes in your day-to-day. And the process is really easy. You can filter by style, price, reviews, which I always check. And it helps you narrow down to exactly what you're looking for without feeling overwhelmed. The reviews especially help. When you see thousands of five-star reviews, it gives you a lot more confidence that what you're ordering is actually going to work. in your space. And everything shows up quickly and the setup is simple, which if you've ever ordered

furniture before, you know this not always the case. It just makes updating your home feel doable instead of just like this huge project. Find furniture, decor, and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's Wayfair, W-A-Y-F-A-I-R-com. Wayfair, every style, every home. So that's the second idea. You have communal then you have the sacrificial, okay? And that's the door to the good life as far as friendships and family. You track in?

What do you think? I think this is a beautiful representation of how you're trying to make sense of faith. Okay. But I don't think this is singular. It's not resonating with you. It's not, and it doesn't have to. I think faith is very unknown,

and I think that's a huge part of it. 100%. And I think you're trying to grasp the unknown and make it known, and that's not possible. So I do think a lot of the thoughts and the ways you've come to understand your faith are in wildly different ways than I have and potentially anybody listening.

Even taking something as baptism and understanding the weight of that but describing it in the way that you did is completely different than I would. And I'm not saying yours is wrong. I think yours is right to what you understand, how you understand it, and what you need. But the way that you described it

is not how I would ever describe it to someone in my understanding and how I would feel. So for me to respond in this context to what you're explaining, I don't even want to say I disagree because I don't think there is something to disagree with because everything you're explaining has no explanation to it. I am,

this is not, thank you, thank you. I'm, I'm explaining hopefully the surface level of why I think faith is intriguing. And I think, I think there are so much, there's so much depth to baptism.

But like at the very, if I'm, if I'm going to church for the first time and I go to, on baptism Sunday, I'm like looking at this. I'm like, I have no background experience. I'm just looking at this. I'm trying to apply that for the surface level. But knowing that there is like this wonderful. And that's almost section four that we won't get to. But as soon as you believe not these stories and these practices and whatever aren't just good for your day to day, but actually true and have this whimsy of a miracle or this potential of like, oh, if I pray, it's not just this.

good daily practice of mind, like get on my knees and show my kids that I'm not God and to have time where I can be thoughtful and reflective of what I've done and hopefully change course for what I'm doing. But if I'm praying and doing all those things already have good day-to-day implications and believing also that there's a God who answers those prayers and it's like a prayer plus, people talk about meditation. It's like, oh, it's so great because it calms your mind and it, it, like, decompress your nervous system or whatever. It's like, that's fine. Let's group. Let's group prayer basic and meditation in that bucket. But now I'm believing also there's a guy that can actually change that. Then that's actually crazy. And you're like,

wow, there's, go ahead. You don't need to get defensive in what I was saying. And there's nothing to defend. What I was trying to say is everything within faith is completely unseen. explaining how you got to the place of believing in something so hard to explain is not right or wrong. Thank you. What I'm saying is because I so wholeheartedly believe in the same thing you do, which is a faith that is unseen and a faith that is good to what I believe, the way I've gotten there is completely different to anything that you have just explained. Does that make sense?

How would you describe? That we'd have to go back to stage one and talk about I think it's just it's this understanding of even you interpreting the Trinity as community

is potentially different than what I'm understanding. There's level. levels to it 100% and what I'm trying to do is like sort through those levels and kind of like explicitly state them and it's like there are there's a bigillion different ramifications of the trinity I'm saying one of them is that like inherently I would say if you look at it on paper black and white oh that's interesting it's like three people but I think your argument of like I would when you're going to choose a god I would choose the best one I would choose the one that gives you the most community and stuff that is your interpretation the only way we can actually talk through pros and cons is to lay out every religion and say what they value

and what they don't. I think there's just what I'm saying is like there's so much to your understanding that is so hard to articulate. So even you saying choose the best one for community. It's like, well, your understanding of community and religion and faith

has 34 years of buildup behind it. So the fact that you're even pointing to community as one of the greatest things of our religion has something very personal to you. Because I would argue that the greatest thing of our religion is salvation. And I would say when you're looking at the religion or God to choose, or no God to choose, I would say let's look at salvation, you know. So I think it's so independently biased. that yes, I do think it's hard to follow

because there is so much bias behind it in such a beautiful way. Does that make any sense? So how I would explain it or not, I don't think, I would explain it very biasedly to my story, just as I think you have. But I don't think it's a unbiased, factual review of faith

because it's impossible for it to be. I agree. It's interesting to think of the ramifications, though, of, like, how you're living life. That's what I'm trying to, like, get at. And so... And I don't think we've... Made any progress there?

So... I don't mean that harshly, but... I'll finish just for good measure, and then we could go back. This is... So this is another thing. You have the community aspect, you have the sacrifice aspect. You also have this character in Jesus who did not make himself a God for his own self-aggrandizement.

He didn't do it so he could have real life benefits while he was alive. A lot of the other gods that you read about benefited from them claiming to be God. Jesus did not. He was a poor guy. He did hang around some wealthy people. but died a terrible death, friends betrayed him. He didn't like benefit from saying, I'm God, right? In contrast to a lot of other gods,

including one historical figure that I did find really fascinating and I think embodies what I'm saying. There's this guy in like the 15th, 16th century, Sabatai Zevi, who was a leader that like legitimately, from my understanding, almost ruined the Judaic, the Hebrew faith, like the Jews thought this guy was the Messiah that they've been waiting on, right?

So this guy says like, yeah, actually, I am. He's like this wise teacher, great speaker, had a lot of wise things to say. People are like, are you the Messiah? Yeah, I am. Becomes rich. Everyone's idolizing him, hangs on his every word.

He gets called in by the leader of whatever country, Turkey. and the guy's like, hey, if you're the Messiah and you say who you are who you say you are, you can do miracles. The guy's like, yep. He's like, all right, well, do this miracle. And this guy, sabotage Zevi couldn't do it. Like, he could not do the miracle because he wasn't the Messiah.

So then the guy's like, okay, either rescind your faith. Like say you're not a part of this at all. Totally walk away from this whole group that has been praising you. or you die or choose death, right? And instead of, you know, committing to the bit and going all the way, he said, you're right, I'm going to rescind the faith and I'm going to stay alive. I don't choose death. In my mind, that's like he was in it for his own self.

He was in it so that he could be idolized by people so he could have the well, so he could be this leader. Jesus did not choose that route. And I think that makes him so distinct from any other spiritual leader where he's like, yeah, I'm God, but not, like, no one's freaking, I'm not reaping any benefits right now. Kind of fascinating. Worth, worth considering.

I also, lastly, sorry, I think this is last. We have a friend Justin Whitmore early who wrote a book called The Body teaches the soul. And from a spiritual aspect, maybe this is more for Section 2, like there are just these inherent practices that are really good to do that are baked in to the Christian faith specifically and honestly others as well. But like things like praying, like we talked about, there's like all these emotional benefits you get from it,

the daily practices, things like eating meals together with your friends. Like what a special time that is relationally that you have each other's attention and you're sitting around a table and you're eating sustenance. Things like even like going on walks, you know, the body teaches the soul. There's like physical benefits after you eat to go on a walk and it lowers your glucose levels and all these different sorts of things. But it also like there's like so many different layers of benefits to doing the Christian or the religious practices. and then you layer on top of those things, this idea of God, and it can have a mind-blowing effect because you're like, okay, now I'm not just doing these practices. I'm doing it towards a God who is hopeful and isn't self, like isn't in it for any other reason

than like selflessness, sacrifice community, right? So, yeah, I think that's interesting to consider. And we could talk about the problem of evil, which is interesting. We talked about this on Caitlin's podcast where, you know, maybe bad things happen because in some ways it's like a test of moral character. And if you only got rewarded when you did good things and you only did good. things because you got rewarded, then that's just like a carrot and the stick type of thing. But if it's a, hey, I'm going to do a good thing, whether there's a good or bad outcome, then that's actually like, oh, well, why are you making your decisions?

Well, it's because you want to make the right decision, not because you want to get rewarded. At the end of the day, it's a choice that you make. And there's a C.S. Lewis book called The Great Divorce. in one chapter he talks about this guy who's like trying to solve the problem of faith which maybe that's how this episode is coming across i'm not trying to solve the problem of faith i'm trying to more paint the picture of if you're going to you're going to make a choice which i think we all do make it consciously and you can't just sit on the sidelines like at some point your feet are going to be put to the fire and it's like, uh, like, there is a, there is a God that you're choosing.

So it's like either make a choice explicitly or make it inherently. And I think it's compelling to think of a God who is all about sacrifice, who is all about community, who is defined as love in the Bible to make that your conscious God. So what are your thoughts? I really enjoyed listening to how you have dissected this in your brain. Thank you for playing alone. I really appreciate it. I apologize for not

understanding it the way your brain is. Don't apologize. I hope I didn't like douse your blame at all. I didn't want to douse yours either. I've just personally been, like, when you go through a life tragedy, my dad passing away, it didn't actually feel like a tragedy to me.

And I credit that to having been in this faith game for so long and done the practices and, like, believed in a God that is hopeful. So, like, it wraps these, quote, unquote, difficult things in this beautiful foil of hope. It wraps it in, like, a covering of, like, oh, you know what, I lost my heart. dad but I'm so grateful for X, Y, and Z. And I know that I have hope that there's still going to be a beautiful day tomorrow and I'm still going to, you know, have maybe a chance at seeing them in heaven, you know? Faith has impacted me and not crippling me in those moments of losing my job nine times, of losing my dad, of like, you're like, okay, how do I keep making it through this

everyday life. Freaking, it's logging along. It's focusing on this. And I'm so compelled by and interested in, like, all these different arguments, scientifically, philosophically for, like, God and how people make sense of them. And maybe this is just how mine makes sense. But, like, even scientifically, my favorite author is Bill Bryson, who, like, is not a Christian. But he wrote this book on The Short History.

of nearly everything where he goes through astrophysicist stuff like talks about astronomy the stars all the way down to like culture all the way down to the human body and he talks about he was in an interview and he said when someone asked him about did this make you believe in god or confirm that there is no god he actually said i was actually surprised at how much room for god this leaves because science is amazing in and of itself. Drill down protons, neutrons. Those are made up of corks. Each cork is like spinning equal and opposite.

They're opposite directions. Apparently if you pull that pair of corks away, put one in the U.S., one in China, and you twist one, the other will also twist. It's like, that's like a miraculous crazy thing. And I can include this clip of where he talks about it's hard to differentiate science from science fiction at some point. It all boils down to like, do you have faith?

All of this is kind of a story that we're telling ourselves. Tell yourself a beautiful story. And that's what the Bible is to me. Jesus to me is like the greatest story. The Bible is made up of all of these incredible distilled down versions of like, here's it. If you want a story about betrayal and friendship and what that looks like, here's one on that. If you want one on like father-son relationships, here's one on that.

And their stories at their very basic level, but they're also historical, I believe, and like, and spiritual as well. And so I just think the whole topic is interesting. I'm pretty sure I made it through a lot of my thoughts, more or less grouped together. And curious to hear what you think listening. Did that make any sense at all? Help me out here. Part of what my goal is is maybe this is like iteration one of me sorting through this and being able to communicate it a little less confusing. But what a patient wife I have. Why do you want to be able to explain it? And do you think anybody really ever has? I'm not like trying to say I figured it out and I can convince people of faith. But you have said you have spent three years writing this down. You've given it to a friend

where a friend said you need to work on it. You just said this is iteration one of me trying to explain it until I can drill it down. Why do you feel so strongly that you need to? Why do you believe in God? What do you mean? Why? What? You know, is that the question you're answering? Are you answering what is faith? And what does God do for you? I am dissecting that. whole question of, oh, well, why do I believe? Okay, that's a good question. Section one. Why do I believe in God? Okay. Yeah, interesting. Section two. What God do I believe in? Section three. You know why? Because I have, we have close friends who live good lives, and they ask me, why do you believe in God? What impact could it have on my life? I think we are in this weird

cultural moment where, like, for the most part, we're living in the most prosperous time in history and yet there is this mental health struggle pandemic you could call it going on people have this meaning crisis they have this relationship crisis there's the loneliness epidemic well why the heck is that if we are living in abundance and prosperity you don't need to get defensive my answer to that question though culturally is we don't understand the god that we're believing in and so i'm trying to answer that question for my friend who has asked me that directly who doesn't necessarily believe in God, but he's like, why would I? Why would you believe in God? Okay, that's interesting. I think you already believe in a lot of different things. And I think

you are doing a phenomenal job, but you aren't God. 100% agree. So therefore, it is not your job to answer that question for your friend. Or for anybody listening. We can't. We cannot explain in a definitive way what our God is, why we believe in him, what he's done, and what faith is, because it is ambiguous. That is what the Bible is for. And if you spend your life trying to figure out that answer for someone else, I think you're missing the point of what your God is. is serving and giving you. I think there is a beauty in the podcast we know with Caitlin of saying, you know what, I have lived

my life without God and without the belief of it, of him. And I can't explain it except for when I chose to live my life for him, everything changed. And I will never, ever be able to explain why. No, but I can. Go ahead. but I can leave you with it has changed my life for the better and I know that there is salvation

but it is not your job to answer that question for someone else nor will you ever I have come to terms with that and if someone is looking for an answer from you they are missing the entire point and will never get it but okay so yes a couple different things

my initial title for my working document, which was like, just my personal diary on this topic, was in defense of faith, meaning it can be proved, it can be, and it's not. And so I told this to Noah,

and he was like, I think you're thinking about it wrong. You can't do it. It's a choice. And that's what I'm trying to, it is a personal choice that you cannot be convinced of or told or proven.

There is, there is like I could tell you that Jesus lived and you could believe that and that's historically correct and you could be convinced of that but I can't tell you that he's God and I think that's the entire point

of my pushback on this whole podcast and everything you said is I disagree with you because that's your interpretation but what you said this is what I'm trying to clarify is when I believed in God everything changed

when I'm trying to voice is what you mean by everything, what you mean by everything. And that's not a singular power I have. But I can say, here's a list of how, I'm trying to make a list of how my life has changed since I believe in God. In hopes that that list is an indication of like,

oh, yeah, then I want to hear it. I haven't heard any of them. Okay. I think that's where, I think the only thing you and I can do is, in the gentlest way to say this, do the exact opposite of what you've put on paper. Scientifically speaking, you cannot put data and statistical points to Christianity and faith. I'm sure you could to a certain extent, but... I can't make the choice for people, and I'm not trying to.

No, but what you can do is take away these bullet points that you've written out and write down how it's changed you. Maybe that's episode two on this. You don't need to tell people you need to have faith at a stop sign. Like, that's not your job to tell them that. No, I don't. They already do. I'm sorry. Faith cannot be explained.

Faith can be explained. Christian Christianity cannot. it can't be convinced and I'm not trying to I'm more trying to pull back the curtain on saying there's so many different levels we could go the Bible has 8,000 different remezes in it REMEZ it's like the hyperlinked Bible where it's like dude that the intertwining of when Jesus says this he's referring to X Y and Z and every word is so jam packed we talked about the Tamer's tree with Abraham and the Tamer's tree represents X Y and Z and there's there's representations or stories. The whole thing is so crazy, but it's not crazy unless you believe. Ask and then you

will seek and then you will find. I do think there is a counter argument to every single thing that you said from every person who has a strong faith and belief in what they believe in. So the guy who is 60 living in a castle, the guy who is 60 who's living in a castle could argue that his life is fulfilled. So your argument of faith to him has to be completely different. No, he has faith in faith of money. And what I'm advocating for is just know what you're chasing. Know what you're going after. Know who your God is.

I'm not saying, part three was me saying why my God is XYZ, who as defined in Exodus 34 is just for clarification. So I'm not making up my own definition of God. It says, the Lord, the Lord, a God merciful and gracious, slow to anger, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands. forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty,

visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, the children's children to the third and fourth generation. That's who God defined himself to be. That's the God I believe in, abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness. I'm not trying to make you frustrated. You're getting frustrated with me because I'm not. No, no, no, no.

I'm fired up because I think we're saying the same thing, which happened. It's so funny this came on the heels of, I think we see this similarly, but I'm not communicating that we do well. Let us know your thoughts. Till next time. Bye.