Creating Confidence with Heather Monahan - #26: The Boldness of Equality in Corporate America with Marissa Orr

Episode Date: October 29, 2019

Marissa Orr, speaker, former executive at Google and Facebook and author of Lean Out: The Truth About Women, Power, & the Workplace, joins Heather to discuss her disenchantment with power structures in the workplace and negativity stemming from both men and women. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information.

Thank you for listening to this Podcast One production. Available on Apple Podcasts and Podcast One. Each week when you join me here, you're going to chase down our goals. Overcome adversity and set you up for a better tomorrow. This journey with me. And welcome back. I'm so glad you're here. So a lot to catch you up on in the last week.

I gave my first TED Talk, which is crazy. And I freaked out. I, you know, I've been speaking so much the past few months. I didn't anticipate getting nervous because I don't get nervous when I speak, but I will tell you, I completely lost it. And for probably a month, I've been working really intently and intensely on the talk. But it came down to that day and I just, I freaked out. Totally unexpected. Not cool. Not happy about it. But, I mean, it just, the day started off, great.

And then they, I was a first speaker. So they said, hey, Heather, why don't you jump up on the red dot and go through like the first five minutes of your talk and we'll, you know, do a mic check. And I said, yeah, great. You know, I was so excited because that would be helpful, you know, that you're getting up there before you're really getting up there. So I was in my sweats and I just jumped up there. And the first couple of minutes were great. And I was killing it. And then I completely went blank and couldn't remember what I was.

to say. That's never happened in my life that I was speechless. But I was. And I just froze standing there. And they were like, oh, whatever. You just, you know, Heather just forgot what she's going to say, whatever. And there was this woman that works with speakers that was there. And she's like, oh, you know, I have a friend that did the same thing. He was a kicker in the NFL. And it was the most important game of his life. And he just blew it. And I was so taken aback by that comment that I had to get out of there. I just said, you know what? Here's what I need. I need to leave. And I need to be around people that I know love me, that lift me up, that know what I need. And that is to, you know, let me just vent, support me and encourage me. And so the makeup artist and hairdresser that I have are awesome. And I just went to

the hotel room and they pumped me up while they were getting me ready. And I just kept going over my notes and going over my notes again and again. And I just kept focusing on the one word, you know, that transition word that I was that I couldn't, I wasn't able to grasp when I was on the stage. But I just kept focusing on that and hopes that, wow, I hope when I get back up there, that doesn't happen. You know, it was super, super stressful. Holy cow. But I got through it and right before I was going to get on stage for real, someone said, hey, here's some lavender. And I love lavender. for the win, totally calm me down. And I will tell you, everyone was freaking out backstage. It's really crazy because it all boils down to I got 10 minutes on that dot. It is going to be

out there forever, right? So if you're nervous, it's, it's just out there. If you're going to forget a line, if you're going to forget what you were talking about, there's no do-over, you know? And I guess that pressure of just the TED circle, that moment really hit me hard. So I just, you know, they called me out there and I just thought, okay, throw your arms up in the air kid and like make this thing happen. Just go. And it was one of those moments I said to myself, Heather, you feel fear. Fear is a green light. It means go. You're stepping into something big. Let's do it. And I was just petrified. So I'm so interested to know what you think when you see it. I got really good feedback. They always say that you either only only own the talk or the talk owns you. I really own the talk. And I feel very proud of what I did, especially knowing how scared I was. I just wonder if people will be able to hear that in my voice or not. I'm sure I will. But I guess we'll see. So, oh, now it's all about promoting the talk. I'm in New York right now. I just did the Nikki Glaser podcast this morning on Sirius XM.

She's the most amazing person. She's so encouraging, so sweet. And I just, she's 35. And she reminds me myself 10 years ago and it was just, it's crazy. She's, you know, struggling with all the dating and oh gosh, dating the wrong guys and, oh my gosh, way too close to home for me. But she's the best and I was so grateful for that opportunity today. Tomorrow I'm going on Gary V's show. This afternoon, I'm interviewing someone for the podcast. And, you know, so I'm just, I'm really focusing on promoting the TED Talk, even though it's not out yet, which is crazy. So the way that it works is you do your talk and then somewhere between a week, two week, three weeks, you know, Ted puts it out there. So I guess when they're ready, you know, goes into a queue until they're ready.

And, you know, it's not even yours. It's so weird. You have to sign your rights away to it. So kind of crazy, a lot of pressure. I'm relieved it's over. The problem is I thought I was so funny and I put a joke in my TED talk that, oh, I'll reveal that in my next TED talk. And I think I'm a little joker and that that was so cute. Well, now, like, seven people came up to me the minute I got off stage.

When's your next TED Talk? And all I thought is, I don't even want to do another TED Talk because it's got so stressful for me. In the end, I was freaking out. Why would I do this to myself again? And so now I sort of feel like I have no choice. I have to do another TED Talk because I put that in there. But we'll see.

Okay. So for now, what's kind of interesting is my TED Talk is a Me Too movement, misstep or mistake as a title. And basically what that's about is, listen, yeah, men. have been called out by Me Too, and that's good that they're shining a light on male harassers. However, now it's time to look at the next layer of the Me Too movement, and that's the women harassers that are out there. Not all women support other women. And in fact, Nikki shared this today. Her biggest villain she's ever had in her career, her life, has been another woman. Same with me.

So sometimes I think women expect men to harass potentially, or they're not shocked by it, where when a woman does it to you, it hurts. It cuts a lot deeper. So anyways, that's what my talks about. And I, so today, today on the show, you're going to meet my guest who has been bullied by another woman. And it's kind of surprising who this woman is. So I'm really interested to see what you think about it. I'm really so flipping excited for you guys to see my talk. I'm excited to see it. When the heck, why can't I see it? I wish, my gosh, I want to see it so bad. So I can't, I'll be sitting there with you on the couch waiting for YouTube to launch this thing, wondering, you know, sitting here just waiting, waiting, watching the clock tick.

So, okay, I can't wait for the talk to come out. I appreciate all of your support. I got so many nice messages from everyone. And it really means the world to me. And I tried to focus on that, on gratitude, on the support I was getting instead of focusing on my nerves. And in the end, I think that really paid off. And that's what helped, you know, be the catalyst to get me out there in that little red dot

when I didn't know if my feet were going to move. But again, fear is a green light means go. So just step into it and all good things will happen. Of course, you have to do your work, though, too. I mean, I definitely prepared for this. So put the time in, put the work in. Then when you feel afraid, jump on in. And let's go.

So I can't wait to hear what you think about my guess. The timing is perfect. Couldn't be better. And here we go. Hi, and welcome back. Today, I'm really excited for you to meet Someone I just met, however I did read her book, Marissa or is, you know, during her 15 years at today's top tech giants, Facebook and Google, I think you've probably heard of them. Marissa became disenchanted with a steady stream of advice coming from the mostly female leadership programs, ignoring the real concerns faced by most working women and offering prescriptions for success that hinged on acting more like a man.

She wrote Lean Out to tell another side of the story of women at work. And what's important for everyone to know is this is not an interview just for women because it's really, the book is so good and so interesting, Marissa, about the complexity at work. You're not bashing boys in this book at all, which I want people to know right out of the gates and I want anyone to tune out. Because if anything, you're coming at women in this book. What do you think about that? Well, I think the part that resonates with both men and women is that so much of it is a real cultural critique of corporate America, which anybody can relate to that's been in that world. And because I go into detail about all the problems with it and the dysfunction, I think it speaks equally to men and women. And I took on people's arguments.

A lot of them happen to be women. And I tried to focus on sort of unraveling the argument instead of attacking. the person, but yes, it's not a bashing man-hating kind of book. I love men. And I love women. And it's really just about that environment and why it causes things like the gender gap and other kind of dysfunction, like why people are so unhappy in that world. So I think it really does have stuff in there that appeals to anyone that's worked in a corporate world. And I've also gotten letters from people about, you know, being able to relate to it, even though they're not in that world, because there's some universal human things that happen in the corporate world that

happen everywhere. So it's relatable on a couple levels. All right. Let's take it back. And can you give all of us a little background into you where you're from my town now? I am from North Miami Beach, Florida. Actually, is born in L.A., but moved to Miami when I was a baby. So I grew up there, I went to school there, college there, and then I moved to New York. Wait, the same school, Cheryl Sandberg went to. You noted that in the book. I went to all the same grade schools. At elementary, middle, high school, we grew up in a few blocks away from each other, but she's 10 years older than me.

So I didn't know her growing up. And then she went to her. She loves that you put that out there, by the way. I'm sure. Well, people get confused. They're like, oh, so did you like have playdates with her? And I'm like, no, it wasn't the same. And your kids will not be having play dates after this book, but go ahead.

Perhaps not. But then she went off to Harvard two times. Which you did not do. Which I did not do. And by the way, she got two different degrees. She didn't have to repeat it. I went to University of Florida and I actually went to grad school there, moved to New York and started working at Google early on. How do you get a job at Google? That sounds so interesting. Yeah, tell me. Hot Jobs. Remember that? No. Yahoo Hot Jobs. It was like a job board in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I literally just applied through hot jobs. It was really before Google became Google. So I always joke that I got in. I was lucky to get in before they raised their standards. But, yeah, it was still a very rigorous interview process. It was like eight or ten interviews.

But, man, they had this wall of free cereal. When I was in their offices, I was like, this is my dream job. Hashtag goals. Yeah, exactly. And I spent 13 years there. work to Facebook for about a year and a half. And that was a tough transition for you. Tough is an understatement.

So really, that's the whole prolog of the book. And Astoria actually posts online too. So while I was at Google in the last few years there, I realized I was in want of something. Something just wasn't. I had a great career there. I was doing well. But I was missing a little bit of meaning or something. And I've always been really passionate about helping women and women.

and women's issues. So I decided I was really kind of disenchanted with the approach that they were taking to female leadership, not only at the company, but nationally, it was all kind of this similar perspective. So I decided to write my own perspective on it, my own point of view. And it started in a conference room with a few friends, but then it grew. And before I left Google, I presented it to maybe over a thousand people at different companies. I did it as a lecture at a couple colleges in New York. And then when... Wait, can I stop you right there?

Yeah, yeah. When you were working for Google, they would allow you to go out and present your thesis to other companies, and that was okay? Google was fantastic about that. They... I applaud that. Yeah, they were really amazing about that. And I think that's why it was such a shock when I went to Facebook, and I was expecting

that to be a similar culture. And that was not allowed at all unless you went through this big approval process. The grass is not always greener. It's not always greener. And in fact, and I tell this story in the book, too. I had this medium blog at the time. You had four people, four views on it, and they came after you. And I so resonate with that because at my old crappy career in corporate America, the GC came at me the same way saying,

shut down your personal brand, shut down your website. And it makes absolutely no sense. It's so paranoid. And for what reason I didn't understand. Because like you said, I had three posts that were read by four people. Two of which were the parents. My parents were two of them. I was scared to show it to anybody.

It was just sort of me coming out as a writer for the first time. You know, that's scary. So when I got an email from the corporate communications person, like, you have, please take down your blog post. I was dumbfounded. Like, how did they find this? And why do they care? Why do they care? Didn't say Facebook.

There was no way to know I was an employee there. I didn't talk about Facebook. It was just sort of my views about how, like, business planning affects creativity. I mean, could it be more boring? So it was really surprising. And they made me take it down. I said, well, what if I just put my initials if I changed the name? So I had to change the name.

And, of course, I don't work there anymore. I changed it back and wrote a book about it. So it didn't really, their plans didn't work out so well. Do you regret leaving Google now in hindsight? Or are you glad that this whole thing unraveled the way it did? I'm so happy. I left, but for a different reason. So I was super happy, uncomfortable, and secure and safe at Google.

That is death. Yeah, it's death. But I didn't know it at the time. Sure. I was the same way. Yeah. And so I had great friends there that are still. They're like family to me.

I had secured enough of a reputation over the years that I had a large degree of autonomy and some flexibility, not that much as I do now. But I was safe and happy and comfortable. And I think about it sometimes. scares me. What if I never went to Facebook? I would have never really pursued this dream that was, and this book that was always inside of me that I knew deep down had to be written, but probably didn't admit it to myself. Probably would have just, I don't know, the thought scares me. So sometimes I think about what else am I safe and happy and comfortable with that I

don't see? That's good perspective, right, because you're starting to open your eyes to it. But for me, I'm really interested to know, because as I mentioned when I met you, your book is really in your face. And I feel I'm an in your face kind of person and my book Confidence Creator I thought was in their face, my old employers. I was petrified of getting sued, Marissa. I used to not sleep at night. I don't sleep at night still, but for different reasons, my 12 year olds torturing me right now. But back then, I couldn't sleep because I was so afraid. I was certain that GC was going to shut me down and I was going to lose everything and all for nothing and why am I, am I crazy? How do I think I'm going to get away with this? And then I read

your book and I thought if I felt like that, you must have been living under a rock hiding from everyone. Yeah. It's so funny you say that a couple things. First of all, I was afraid someone was going to kill me actually. I bet. Yeah, especially the story I opened the book with about what happened to me at Facebook where I was bullied by a, you know, powerful woman that worked at the company. You know, she had sort of lured me over there and then it was just a terrible experience. She was a true villain when she shut the door and turned into a different person after you were there. It was horrible. That was just the beginning. I didn't go into detail about some of the more evil things because I felt it would make me look crazy. And I didn't want to give it that much

power because that's not really what the books about it. It's just the story of the journey of how I came to write it. I was afraid she was going to hire a hitman to kill me. And at the time, I had just read coincidentally, like not planned, but I just read Martha Beck's book, sociopath next door. I don't know. It's a great book, but not if you've just outed a sociopath. because I would start to like freak out every night about my doors being locked and all this kind of stuff. And I told my parents, if I die under suspicious circumstances, these are the people that need to be investigated. But you weren't kidding. You were being, you really were that afraid. For that, I probably wouldn't have been that afraid had I not really just read that book.

But I was very afraid. How did you move through that fear to push forward? You know, I work on the control of my mind all the time. And I used it as practice. Like just keep letting go of that fear because what's the alternative? Worrying about it is not going to keep her from killing me. And, you know, I don't, you know what else it is? I don't want to give her power over me.

That is a big motivating force in my life. It's not letting that kind of those people who want to have a negative kind of power over my life is not. I'm a little bit, you know, rebellious in that way. I want to share something that I saw. I can't think of the actress's name, but there was a major actress yesterday that came out. She had someone taunting her privately saying, I have naked pictures of you. And she decided, I'm not letting this person have power over me. I'm going to come out with the picture publicly.

And then footnote, you cannot have, no one will control me. And it sounds like what you're saying. Exactly right. So she had so much power over me at Facebook for some period of time that, continuing my fear of that just gives her power. And the whole point of telling that story was not to let it have power over me. I can't tell you how many women have reached out to me, though, about that story in particular to tell me they have very, very similar story. And it's not just women. It's not just women. And that's the thing. It's both. And with the whole, you know, what I write about in terms like girl and girl crime in the corporate world and the whole Me Too movement, For me, I see it. It's not about gender. It's about power.

You're absolutely right. And women in power, abused power. People abuse power, but men and women do it in different ways. It hurts more, frankly, I believe, when it's a woman because you don't expect it. It's covert and secretive. And the power in it is that the target... When you want more, start your business with Northwest Registered Agent and get access to thousands of free guides, tools, and legal forms to help you launch and protect your business. All in one place. Build your complete business

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with an in-network psychiatrist in just a few minutes. That's tachydry.com slash confidence to get matched in minutes. Is not sure what the hell is happening to them. Like, or why? Right, because it's so, and I write an article about this on my blog, but, you know, it's these constant slights and they're underhanded and they're emotional and they isolate you. And it's, you know, if you tell your manager, oh, she won't talk to me or she's leaving me out of meetings, it sounds like you're immature and petty, right? It does. But that's the power of that kind of girl-on-girl aggression is that it's so covert that it makes the victim. look crazy and feel very isolated. So I dealt with the same thing I had.

I called, you know, this is my evil villain number one. And this is the woman that fired me from corporate America. And I go to this all the time. When you are a threat, you will always be a target. And that's typically when you see that woman on woman bullying in the workplace. She would come in. I was the only other female in the conference room, as I'm sure you, the same thing at Facebook. It's predominantly men on the executive team.

And she would hug and or, you know, give a hi. Good morning to everyone and walk right by me, not saying anything. And I'll never forget this. I decided one day she's taking my power. I'm shrinking trying to make her feel better about herself. And it's not fixing the freaking problem. So I'm going to go polar opposite and try a different approach. I put on my red dress.

I glam myself to the nines. And I stood in front of the mirror before I left her work that morning. And I said, no one will let me be, you know, be the small version of me. I will be me. And when she played her little game, I said, excuse me, good morning, you missed me. I'm over here. Now, mind you, is the same woman that fires me shortly thereafter, but I was sick of, it was slowly chipping away at my confidence and eroding me. And I was done with it. And the irony is, and I'm so happy I'm sharing us with you right now, is that for the first time in corporate America, I really started becoming the most confident version of myself. So of course, I was going to get fired because you, right, when you actually are confident, you don't fit in corporate America any longer. You know, and I get this question, are you afraid? This was my truth.

This is the raw truth, like unfiltered from my brain. And so it doesn't, that part doesn't scare me. Being sued, all that stuff. It could totally happen. I'm a little naive too sometimes, probably, but I know it can happen. But at the end of the day, I told the truth. And so I can sleep at night. Anyone can sue you for anything.

Yeah. And I'll never forget this. And I want this to really connect with you. James Altiture, I was on his podcast last year when my book was dropping. I love him. He's brilliant. And he said to me, is there anything I can answer for you, Heather, when we were done? And I said, yeah, am I going to get sued?

How do I not get sued? I'm really scared. And he's like, leave the cameras on. You know, I wanted to record this. But his point was he wanted people to know, no. If you told the truth, did you maliciously attack them trying to take down their company? If they can prove that, then they would have a case. No, that wasn't the case.

And for you, same thing, because you weren't singling out. just Facebook. You know, you talk about a spectrum of different organizations, people, et cetera. So as long as you're not falsifying information, you're telling your story and you're not trying to take a company down financially, they're not going to have a case. So then you're just going to get more press and PR. Wouldn't you love right now, actually, to have Facebook come at you? Because it would put such a light on your book and people would be dying to pick it up. I thought a lot about this, actually, when I was fired, because they offered me a very, uh, small severance. It was almost like on purpose, very, you know, small for the industry. So,

um, I thought about, oh, to sign a non-disclosure. To sign, well, once you get set, like they send you the severance package and they agree to pay you whatever, you have to sign whatever's there. And in that, uh, contract or whatever, it says you won't talk about, you know, Facebook or whatever. Right. Now, when I was fired, I was already 95% done with the book proposal. And when I was fired, how did you even know how to write a book proposal. Do you know the first thing I did? I googled how to write a book. I had no I did the same thing. You did? Yeah. I mean, how else did? I didn't know where to start. And I had this burning fire inside of me that, you know, I was like, I need to start now because this is such

phoniness of what I'm, and nothing bothers me more than people who have an agenda and care about that more than they care about helping people, but, but sort of, you know, pretend. that that's their interest. And there's a lot of people like that. And there's a lot of people like that. And when it's something I care about, like women and I feel like they're getting it wrong, it sort of lit this fire under me. So I'll never forget, I started with how to write a book.

And then I had read, I did all this research and I read that if you wanted to do a narrative nonfiction, like the kind that I wanted to write, you didn't have to write the whole book in order to get a book deal to which that really appealed to the lazy part of me. Or I was like, oh, I don't have to write the whole book first. But then, of course, a book proposal is no easy undertaking. It's harder than writing the book. I spent four months writing it. I bought a book, how to write a book proposal.

And I literally followed all the steps. And people when they saw the proposal were like, who did you hire or to do this? And I was like, no, I just followed the directions. Like I had my best friend from growing up. She's a graphic designer. I had her create like one little graphic. That was it. The rest I did.

And God, I went off on a tangent. I don't even remember the, oh, so they asked me to sign this thing. But I was 95% done. I spoke to a few attorneys. And the general consensus was that I could maybe get a year or two of salary right out of it. But which was obviously super appealing. Because you're a single mother with three kids. Exactly.

And I don't get money from anyone else. Like I, you know, it's scary. Yeah, it's really scary. But if I did that, it wouldn't have been able to write the book. And I thought, no, there is no way. And the part of me that was scary, I said to them, Well, here's the thing. I didn't sign the severance agreement.

I never said this. I probably should be more prudent about what I shared. But I didn't sign the seventh agreement. They paid me anyway. And I called the attorney. Why would they do that? It's bookkeeping. Like usually people don't ever not sign the agreement.

So I don't even think there's something in place to check. I don't know. That was my guess. I can tell you right now they haven't made an amendment. Yeah. So I ask the attorney. I'm like, well, what if, you know, I write this book and then they check and see they paid me, but I didn't sign the agreement. He's like, I don't think you'll have to worry about it at

that point if your book gets out there to the point that Facebook's checking your status. It means your book's doing pretty well. And I was like, yeah, good point. Okay, let's move on. And so I didn't, and it was a nothing severance. I mean, so even if they sued me and I had to give it back. That was fine. It was fine. So, yeah, so I'm not afraid generally of that stuff because I told the truth and I feel like I can sleep at night. But one other thing that you said that I find so interesting. You said the book's very in your face and you know, you felt yours was and you're kind of an in your face. I'm the opposite, actually. I'm quite introverted and reserved. So this is shocking that you wrote this book. Yeah. I guess people are, but at the same time,

there's a lot of ironies or what's the word? I can't even think of it right now. When my friends read it, they tell me that's so funny because they hear me in their head saying it like it's so true to my voice. Although you did not narrate the audible version. I know. Why didn't you do that? I fought for it. Because they have all these rules about what kind of voices people want to listen to. And when I sent the sample, because it really is so my voice in this book, I felt so strongly that it should be actually my voice. All the audio engineers wrote back after hearing the sample, like all these complex terms. She has too much this. Basically, her voice isn't too annoying for people to listen to.

And they basically, the guy that I work with at Harper was amazing and he fought for me to be able to narrate it, but they have these rules and they said, well, if it does really well, we'll reconsider. So hopefully everyone will go out and buy it and then I can narrate the audio. I did, I have both the

paperback as well as the audible and the audio version I really liked that voice and I think it's a great voice. It worked. It worked. However. Yeah, but I agree with you. I'd rather have me telling that story. So, knowing that, you know, I'm on the outside looking in. I was never with these tech giants. And so that's obviously, everyone listening right now is very impressed that you were with these companies. And now to see

that you are no longer a part of these massive brands, you're on your own. And as we were talking, you're reinventing yourself and learning. How do I promote my book? How do I elevate myself so that I'm able to sell more books? How do I land speaking engagements? You're going through this whole rookie phase, just like I'm going through it as a rookie podcaster. How are you finding your way? It's been really fun and difficult. And I heard you say this on a podcast the other day that you've learned more in the past year and a half than you did in the entirety of your career in the corporate world. And I have to say, you know, that's absolutely true for me. And if I Google how to write a book, you can imagine I Google everything like I don't know how to do and I just

figure it out. So the learning curve is big and fun. Also, it's very skis. You know, I feel like I'm figuring it out day by day. I mean, I'm literally sort of creating the parachute on my way down. Like, I've jumped off the plane and then, you know, things come up and I figure out, what do I, you know, what do I need to do to fix this? That's the Steve Harvey story he always tells is that you have to be willing to jump and that's when your wings will come out, but not until you actually take that free fall for a little while. And on your way down, you don't know if those wings are coming out. You're just hoping, like, heck, that they do. Totally.

I didn't finish writing the book until February, and it's only June because we pushed sort of the production schedule and the release schedule out. So writing a book, man, that was really, really a hard thing. I had to rewire my entire personality to write a book because I am somebody that's typically not anymore. I've really sort of changed, but my whole life I've been sort of a procrastinator. I lacked a lot of discipline. I'm very creative, so I have this like messy brain. and I am very sort of like impulsive and I need instant gratification. These are the exact opposite behaviors and traits that you need to write a book, like literally

the opposite because this is the most long-term, disciplined kind of undertaking, delayed gratification. It took me a year and a half and you feel like, I don't know if you felt this way, but sometimes I felt like I was writing into a void, like screaming into a void because you're writing every day and nobody's reading or listening. and you have no feedback. I didn't know if I was writing like the Great American novel or like a piece of trash. So it took a lot. Everybody feels that way.

Yeah. It's hard. It took a lot of faith and a lot of like mental management and learning new behaviors. So in that respect, that's been amazing. I feel like it's enriched my life in so many other areas. What do your kids think about all of this? They're so excited. So I have a 10-year-old and 8-year-old twins.

And sometimes, so they are used to me being all dressed up, right, leaving the house, going into the city, coming home, wearing, like, you know, nice clothes. And for the past year and a half, I've been literally wearing pajamas two years now almost. Okay, I don't know that's necessarily good. Yeah, well, for me it is because Lord knows I love my pajamas. So, like, they think I do nothing all day in a way, right? They're at school, and they're like, you know, I come to pick them up if I'm wearing jeans. they're like, oh my God, where did you go today? You know, because I'm just normally, you know, wearing whatever.

So it was very abstract for them at first, right? Oh, I'm writing a book. Well, they don't see anything. But now that everything's happening, I just took them to Barnes & Noble in our town, took pictures of them with it. The twins asked that they could bring the book in for show and tell. That's great. They're really excited and they're proud.

Yeah. And your book is in airports as well as we just mentioned. I saw it yesterday when I was in the airport. That's got to be a surreal feeling. It is so surreal. So yesterday flying out here on the plane, I got, someone sent me a picture of the bookstore in the Minneapolis airport. And it was in the front rack next to Michelle Obama's book.

This, like, blew my mind. This might have been a pinnacle for me, like the champagne moment of this whole process. It felt like I won an Oscar for books, just being next to her on the shelf. The number one bestselling book in the U.S. And it was funny because I had to like no one. This was such a holy, I don't know if I'm a lot of curse, but holy crap. We'll bleep you out anyway. A holy crap moment that, and I turned to the guy on the plane that was sitting next to me.

I never talked to people on planes. Like I said, I'm also shy and introverted reserve. I just turned to him and I said, I just have to tell you. My book is next to Michelle Obama. It's like, I go, I'm sorry. I never do this, but I just have to tell you, you're the only person I could talk to right now. I was like, my book, and I showed him the picture. And he ended up buying the book on Amazon.

I was like, look at me a hustler. I sold a copy of my book on the planes, the guy next to me. So that's a great high moment. What I'm really interested in hearing is what is the low moment? When you look back over this whole process, your whole life, what is that moment where you really were at the bottom and struggling the most with your confidence? Well, that is probably that moment is probably not so much on this part of the journey. I don't know if that was what you were specifically asking. No, no, for your whole life.

Facebook comes pretty close. So at Google, like I said, I have. had a great reputation. I was a well-respected, conscientious person. I always did well. I was well-liked by people. And at Facebook, it was like I had leprosy and I was contagious. And it was like, actually, that's like not a nice thing to say. I don't know what the word is. I just felt like I was contagious. People didn't want to come near me because this story had been spun about who I was and I was painted to be this person that I didn't, I wasn't at all. And it was like, I didn't know myself anymore. I didn't recognize myself. I used to have to go back to, and again, I don't go into all these crazy stories that happened in Facebook and the book, but they were really bad. People treating you poorly. Mostly it was who I call Kimberly in the book and sort of like her cohort. It was actually like the movie Mean Girls where you had this like alpha female and then these like groveling like women around her. Oh, I'm very familiar. I literally had the same situation. Yeah. So it was like that. And I used to go back and. I used to go back and.

have lunch at Google with my friends just to be in a place where I remembered who I was. Like, people smiled at me like, hey, Marissa. And you felt better about yourself. And I was like, oh, right, I am somebody normal. So what you're saying is the people and an environment you put yourself in and surround yourself with makes all the difference for you and your confidence. So let me go a little further into that story. And then I can think about sort of what, how confidence sort of manifested in that scenario.

And I have another one that's probably even a better example. But at Facebook, you know, I was pushed to the bottom, the breaking point where my identity was completely unraveled. And I had to ask myself those questions, like, who am I? And what do I, what do I want? And it was really a moment that was the turning point of my life because when I asked myself those questions, I knew the answer was, well, I'll never be happy in corporate America. I never realized my potential. I have big dreams and I can't fulfill them in this environment. And I still didn't have the guts to quit.

Like we said, I'm a single mom of three. It felt so irresponsible, right? Like what kind of person leaves a lucrative career? Making all this money at the top companies in the world. Are you crazy? Right. We didn't even, we did not talk about the book. I have a wonderful, supportive family and I dedicate the books to my parents, but we didn't

talk about the book for a year. Like, it was not, like, we all pretended it didn't exist and I wasn't working on it because it scared my parents. They were like, what the hell is wrong with Marissa? Like, what has gotten into her? You know, I've never written anything. It's so hard to get a book out there. So it was like we didn't talk about it. So being fired was like the ultimate gift because sometimes I question, would I have had the confidence to quit?

I would think about it every weekend. I'd put spreadsheets together with budget. When can I quit? I just didn't have the nerve. So I think the confidence really came through, and I, once I was fired, and I pushed through. And I kept working on the book, and I decided I'm not going back to Google. I'm not going to get another job in this world. But I actually have another, as we're talking about it, I'm sort of thinking out loud as we're talking.

But also, I don't talk about my divorce. And I, you know, I have a great relationship with my ex-husband now, but we didn't at the time. and one really interesting story happened that I think about a lot. I had started seeing this therapist that worked at Google actually. He's like the on-site therapist. Amazing. Yeah. And I was doing a lot of soul searching about my relationship and how things had gotten to that point.

And what, you know, he would ask me, like, what is it about you that, you know, allows certain things or does certain things? And so I had said something to him. We were talking about, like, codependent personalities. And I was, like, reading a book on it. And I said to him, you know, so much of this resonates with me. Like all the things I can tick off on the list. Yep, I do that. Yep, I do that.

But one thing I can't reconcile, and it's that this book and everything on the topic says, what really underpins that kind of personality is low self-esteem. And I said to the therapist, I was like, but I was working at Google at the time. This was before any of the Facebook stuff happened. But I said to him, that one, I don't know. I don't feel like I have low self-esteem. I quite like myself. I think, you know, I've always.

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You need to be liked and your need to be, you know, approved of and validated by other people, you know, you have, I had this, like, strong need for everyone to like me and, like, be happy with what I was doing. And he said, you're also smart. He goes, have you ever thought maybe over the years? Like he said, you're so good with people and you're smart. You figured out how to get people to like you. And you're so good at it now that you mistake that as confidence. And he said, what happens? Imagine it as a house of cards.

And all these cards are made up of the validation and the adoration of everyone in your life. And you slowly take away each card. This is exactly what happened to you, the Facebook. Like what he was predicting what was about to happen. You know what? I just got the chills. You're kind of right. I'm freaking out.

You're right. I never really put those together. And they happened years apart. And he said, what happens if you take away all the cards? What's left? He said, because if it's just the cards, then that's not self-esteem. That's pseudo.

That's not real. And it kind of blew my mind. I'm like, I think you're right. What is underneath? He was right. And I was like, it sent me. I'm a big research nerd and I'm obsessed with psychology and human behavior, which you can probably tell from reading the book. So I became upset.

I'm like, what is self-esteem? was confidence. And I was like, there's a big part in the book about that. It's so interesting. And actually, that I learned all of that on this journey from that one conversation about what is, what is confidence. So for you, from what I'm seeing, what I've read and what I'm hearing, it really took you being broken down to your lowest to finally learn to create confidence. Thank you for summarizing what I just took forever to say in the most long-winded way. I think you captured it exactly, which is for me, I've always risen to my, best in the worst of circumstances. It's almost like I need, like when things are bad,

that's when I ride. I'm so good when bad stuff happens. I figure out a way to rise above. When everything is comfortable and safe and happy, I'm probably at my worst. So I think my confidence has come from these periods. And I've been through some stuff. I don't talk about it in the book and, you know, whatever. But some really, really hard things, that's where I feel like I have built my confidence from. Will that be your second book? Perhaps.

Perhaps. Maybe. I don't know. But yeah, I think when things around me, when I, when the story of who I think I am and what I'm supposed to be starts to unravel, that's always when I've gotten my confidence. Like, I don't know how to explain it otherwise. And yeah, it's kind of sucks that it's got to take these horrible things for me to kind of get it together and have confidence.

But it's really in those times. When I think about it, those are like landmark events in my life, after which I'm never the same. So people don't know. Anyone can, you know, be in the airport and see your book and look, oh, Google, Facebook. And we all put that person on a proverbial pedestal and think they have it all together. For you right now, navigating the speaking business. Becoming an author, a first time author. I mean, how are you feeling?

Super excited and grateful and super scared. I put my whole life savings on the line for all of this. That's so hard. I am so right there with you. Yeah. And it's pretty much out. So please buy a book because my kids need food. Really, why should people buy your book?

So I wrote this book because this conversation about women at work and the gender gap has been really dominated by a handful of very elite and powerful women. And naturally, they're going to see the issues through a similar perspective. But it's been limited because so many working women don't hear their voices, their challenges and concerns reflected in that conversation. So I really wrote the book to represent those voices and to tell a totally different side of this story about women, which I did. But also because there's so much BS in the corporate world because of its needs. nature is like this big power structure, people can't be honest. It like crushes truth and it punishes truth.

Well, they're all zero-sum games for power. They're zero-sum competitions for power. And no matter whether you're Google or, you know, Walmart or whatever corporate organization, they're all structured as these zero-sum competitions. And it's behaviors like putting your needs ahead of other people's. That is a behavior that wins in that environment. Putting other people's needs first is always going to be a disadvantage in the corporate world because you get crushed. It's the nature of the game.

And that's another reason I wrote this book is because I didn't know what game I was playing in that world. I was kind of like, like naive, Pollyanna going about it. Like, oh, everybody really is working hard to like make a difference in the business and make an impact. and we're all team players. And then over time, I started realizing, like, wait, that is not what this is at all. And I was kind of naive. And I write it in the book, and it's true. It's like, I really didn't care what game it was.

I just would love for people to be honest about what it is. That's a novel idea. Yeah. And one thing that really sort of like the essence of Lean in and books of that nature, one of the things that really irked me was we kept, it's sort of. posits the idea that women don't want to be leaders. And I hate that language because that's not what it is. It's women to the same, don't aspire to be corporate executives to the same degree as men. So the stat quoted in that book is 18% of women aspire to be a corporate executive or is 36% of

men. And saying that that means women don't want to be leaders, that's not true because corporate executive is not synonymous with leader. Leader is somebody who paints a vision for the future that's better. And like, I use the example of Martin Luther King, right? He was elite. Nobody's going to argue he wasn't one of the best leaders of the 20th century. People didn't work for him. They didn't, you know, they didn't follow him because the power structure required it or their

livelihood was at stake, which is. In fact, it was the opposite. It was the opposite. He led with influence. So it bothers me that we paint that story as women don't have leadership ambition. No, they don't have corporate executive ambition to the same degree as men. But sometimes they do. I certainly did.

I wanted to be the CEO. I did not mince words about it. And there's more power to you. The whole message of the book is be true to you. And so we've over-indexed our time and attention. So if only 18% of women aspire, right? I'm not saying that 18% don't have challenges or problems and that they shouldn't go for what they want. My daughter's going to be a CEO of a huge, huge conglomerate organization.

That is her nature. Like more power to her. I joke with her. I'm going to one day get a tattooed. WWSD, what would Shelby do? Because I get inspired. She is a boss. But I love that about her.

I was not like that as a child. And I sort of took issue with this idea that these more nurturing, feminine, not feminine, but the gender stereotype of a woman, that these were, we're giving women the opposite message now, that those behaviors are wrong, right? That we need to defy those boundaries and act outside of that. But that's still a prescription for women on how to behave. That's your whole premise is that we don't need to be told who to be, whether someone's something to be like a man or to be like a woman or to be this, but to just be you, like your daughter,

like just own your truth. Just own it. And the corporate world is not a place where people can be themselves and lean into, no pun intended, their natural strengths and abilities because the rules of that game don't change, whether you're a Google or a GE or whatever. There's a certain law of human dynamics and power dynamics once you get to a certain amount of people that even no matter how progressive of a company you are, you can't escape those sort of. laws of human behavior. And, you know, I went off on a total tangent here, but I think, you know, to your point, it's like lots of women want to be CEOs. I totally support that, but lots of women don't. And there's no voice to represent them because we've been told that the reason they don't want to be a corporate executive is because they're oppressed by culture and stereotypes.

Now they have one. And now they have one. And a lot of so many women have reached out to me to say, Thank you because I think another big reason I wrote this book was to, here's the feedback I get, and this is the reason I wrote it. People reach out to me to say, you put into words all these thoughts and feelings I've had in the corporate world, but I didn't know how, A, how to express them and be that other women felt the same, and you made me feel heard and understood. And that is my number one goal, is making women feel heard and understood, because I feel like we've been very dismissive of what lots of women want and need.

And instead of blaming the gender gap on stereotyping, you know, dismissing sort of women's needs as a product of culture, my whole point in the book is we should listen to them and embrace their needs. And if men and women want and need different things at work, that is okay. We should embrace that, listen to women and figure out what is it about the corporate structure that needs to change to better meet their needs instead of folks. on the ways women need to change to better meet the needs of the corporate structure. It's just common sense. So I think, you know, making a lot of women like me that felt so invisible and dismissed in that world feel hurt and understood is my ultimate goal. Well, congratulations. You did a great job. You guys need to pick up Lean Out by Marissa or you can get it everywhere, not just the airport.

Where can they find the book? It's on Amazon. It's in Barnes & Noble, some airports. and you can go to my site, marissaore.com, also for the links. And how about following you on social media? So on Twitter, I am Marissa Beth Orr, Beth, B-E-T-H, my middle name. And on, you have to forgive me, so I'm like, just to your point about building the, you know, parachute on the way down, and this is all so new to me.

Instagram also on Marissa Beth Orr, Twitter, Marissa Beth Or. Twitter, Marissa Beth Or. And on Medium, I have a bunch of articles, including the prologues. So if you want to read the story about what happens me at Facebook, you can see that at Medium, which is medium.com slash at Marissa Orr. So if you just search for Marissa or Medium, it should show up. All right. I'm going to check it out too. Thank you, Marissa. I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me. This is fun. All right. Hang with me. We'll be right back to back. I just realized that I forgot to tell you, I can't believe this has all been the same week.

It feels like the longest week of my life. But a few days ago, I'm back in New York right now. And I was in New York on Thursday of this past week to join my good friend Scott for his book party launch for Standing O Encore, which is an amazing book. You got to check it out on Amazon. And it's all about gratitude. It's all for charity. I write the foreword. Jesse Itzler wrote the cover quote. I call it in good company.

But definitely check it out Standing O Encore. This is not an ad, by the way. And so I came to New York for his event. And it was the craziest night. It was so funny. So he kicked off the event. He was speaking. And then he handed the microphone over to me.

And I was speaking. And while I was speaking, someone passed out. She's okay. The woman is okay. But I didn't really know what was going on because when you're speaking, you know, you're not really in tune with everything. I just heard a lot of commotion because what happened is the woman fell into someone else. And then that person fell into someone and that person fell.

It was like a domino effect. So there was a lot of broken glass and it was just insane. And then a puppy got caught in a door and the puppy was crying. And oh gosh, there was a lot of chaos ensuing. And when that all happened, I made a joke. I said, oh my gosh, this is perfect because everyone says at a TED talk, anything and everything can go wrong and to be prepared for it. So I want to thank everyone who's, you know, falling on the ground and getting the dog,

you know, for setting this up for me so that I won't get rattled. And I made a joke, whatever, everyone was laughing. It went really well. But what's so crazy is I wasn't nervous at my friend's book launch party versus when I was at TED and I was literally freaking out. I can't tell you how scared I was. And right when it was time for me to go on the clicker broke and the slides weren't going to work and everyone started freaking out. and I just turned around and I said listen to me right now to everybody that was backstage. I said, done is better than perfect.

And we are going out there and we'll just make it work. Just make do with what you have. And I really have lived my life like that since I left corporate America and since I got fired. You know, I didn't know if my book was going to be good. I didn't know it was going to trump Trump for number one in business biography on Amazon. Yeah, it did. But I didn't know any of that stuff. And I didn't know that I'd end up being a professional speaker.

I didn't know. I'd give a TED talk. I didn't know I'd own the TED talk. Yeah. I'm so excited. I can't, I didn't know any of this stuff. You know,

and it's just about taking the chance and going for it has really been the answer for me. And it's funny because I was speaking to a woman at the book launch party and she was telling me how she wanted to launch her own podcast. And I said, well, why, what are you waiting for? Like, well, I'm so curious. Why haven't you done it? And there was no real reason. Anyway, so I.

So I had that conversation with her and I got a note from her today. She went ahead and bought a computer and she's up and running and launching her podcast this week. So I'm super proud of her. But sometimes we just get in our own head and decide, oh, this will never work or there's too many podcasts or there's, you know, I'd never be a good TED Talk speaker. Well, I got great advice that night at the book launch party. And I was talking about how some people who are amazing speakers like the best in the world, when they do a TED Talk, it doesn't go viral or doesn't do that well. And someone told me that's because they don't really show up as their self. If you, it's hard because Ted's strict with you can't leave the circle and it's about

the idea and it's not like a normal talk and you have a time limit and there's a timer running that you have to hit that mark. I chose not to look at the timer just FYI. So I'm super interested to see how long my talk actually was because I was too stressed out. I couldn't add one more layer of problems in my mind. So I just ignored it. I don't know if that's the right move for everybody, but it worked for me. So, you know, you look at all these restrictions and it's just, I don't know, it can be tough. It definitely got in my head. But, you know, it's about taking the risk and going for it. You know, as Sarah Blakely put this note in my bag, she gave me a bunch of Spanx products when I interviewed her and there was a note from her and it just said the only risk

that you'll ever take is not taking one. And it's so true, you just have to go for it. If I failed, you know what, I still would have been proud of myself for getting up there. And I would have not forgiven myself if I had backed out. You know, that was kind of what I was thinking. So anyhow, so I had, I also have an accountability partner program on my website. That's free. You can check it out, heathermonahan.com. And I refer people to it when they're not pushing themselves, you know, because then you get an email from me each day, really kind of, you know, trying to annoy you to make sure that you fall through on your dreams and, and go after your goals. And so I had, I'd suggested to a woman that she should sign up for it because she wasn't pushing herself.

And it was so cute. She sent me a note back and said, thank you so much. I did it. However, I don't want to embarrass you. But the bounce back right after I signed up has a typo in it. And I hope I'm not offending you. Oh my gosh. I was so appreciative.

And, you know, I said to her, listen, done is better than perfect in my book. And I'm not an editor. And I so appreciate that you took the time to tell me. That's not embarrassing. You don't have to feel bad. I'm grateful, you know. So when we extend a hand to someone else and offer help to them, it's 99.999% of the time I'm going to be welcomed and appreciated.

100% of the time will be from me. So I appreciate when people help me with things that I haven't been able to fix yet for myself. So I think it's great to lend a hand to somebody else and help people improve when you can and cheer them on when you can. And I have to tell you, oh, my gosh, I had people that flew in for my TED Talk. And it just meant the world to me to see those people there cheering me on. And one of my friends that came in said that she felt like, you know what, I need to listen to my inner voice.

I really have this sense that I should go to this TED Talk. And she jumped on a plane and came. And I was so happy to see her, so happy to have her support. You know, you just never know. People assumed I would just be so confident and it would be easy and it wasn't. So having people that love me that were cheering me on meant the world. So if there's someone in your life that you think, oh, that person's got it.

You know what? Why don't you give them a hand? Why don't you cheer them on and why don't you let them know that you're supporting them? Because it really makes such a difference and you never know what's going on in someone else's life.

That is for sure. So, I'm so excited for everyone to see this. I want to, by the way, I'm dying to see my own talk. It's so annoying that we have to wait for Ted to upload this thing, but it's, I pray it's going to do well. I pray that you're going to love it.

And I can't wait to see it. And on to the next one. So until next week, who knows what's going to happen this week. I mean, I don't know how we top this past week, but there's always a chance we can. So let's just keep going. Thanks so much for being here with me. Thanks for hanging with me on the podcast. It means a world to me.

I appreciate your support so, so, so much. And I hope that this is a kickoff for a great week for you, too. Thank you.