Creating Confidence with Heather Monahan - #520 What He’s Really Thinking in the First 3 Dates: Flirting, Communication & Navigating the Early Days of Dating with Dating Strategist Ben Hart

Episode Date: May 13, 2025

If you’ve ever felt like dating is one giant mystery while every other area of your life has a strategy—this episode is your game-changer. I’m joined by dating strategist Ben Hart, and we’re breaking down how to stop sitting on the sidelines and start approaching your love life with the same intention, confidence, and momentum you bring to your career. From how to stop overthinking early dating stages to setting standards without pushing love away, this conversation will help you flip the script on dating and attract the kind of relationship you actually want.  In This Episode You Will Learn Dating requires intention, just like any other life goals. The small confidence-building steps that matter more than grand gestures. Why creating fictional narratives is killing your relationships. Practical tips for flirting and navigating the early stages of a new relationship. Stop treating dating as a transaction, enjoy the process and yourself. Resources + Links Sign up for a one-dollar-per-month trial period at shopify.com/monahan Download the CFO’s Guide to AI and Machine Learning at NetSuite.com/MONAHAN. Want to do more and spend less like Uber, 8x8, and Databricks Mosaic? Take a free test drive of OCI at oracle.com/MONAHAN. Get 10% off your first Mitopure order at timeline.com/CONFIDENCE. Get 15% off your first order when you use code CONFIDENCE15 at checkout at jennikayne.com. Call my digital clone at 201-897-2553!  Visit heathermonahan.com Sign up for my mailing list: heathermonahan.com/mailing-list/  Overcome Your Villains is Available NOW! Order here: https://overcomeyourvillains.com  If you haven't yet, get my first book Confidence Creator Follow Heather on Instagram & LinkedIn Ben on Instagram

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Go to bellvital.com, code BV15, that's bellvital.com. This is going to change everything. I think that dating, specifically for a lot of people, is difficult because they've developed a structure around a lot of other aspects of their life, like their work and their school and their gym routines. Like there's a lot of structure associated with it. Like you do X, you get Y.

And I think that with dating, there's not a lot of structure. A lot of people have this really unique Disney story, fairy tale attached to how it should happen. And not a lot of people actually like to think about dating so strategically. And I get why it's not an attractive thing to be like, oh, what do you mean I got to do this, this, and this? I'm like, well, you don't have to do anything. But if you think about it a little bit more strategically without focusing on the hard

truths and the details, just strategically, framework, and then think about how to progress that aspect of your life. Like, you know, if you don't think about dating or dating fundamentally with more purpose or more intention, then I don't see how you just expect things to happen. Come on this journey with me. Each week when you join me, we are going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity and set you up for a better tomorrow. I'm ready for my close-up. Hi, and welcome back. I'm so excited. You're here with me this week. Okay, so let's get to the guest right away.

Ben Hart is a globally recognized dating strategist. Ooh, that's interesting. Author and content creator with a worldwide following of over 700,000, known for his no-nonsense humorous, which I like, and heartfelt approach to dating. Ben helps people take charge of their love lives by leading with authenticity, embracing setbacks and showing up as their best selves.

He is the founder of Dating with Purpose, a coaching program and community that empowers daters to stop sitting on the sidelines and start creating meaningful connections. Who doesn't want that? A New York based entrepreneur and public speaker. Who? Ben is also the author of The Zero Mindset, a transformative guide to creativity and reinvention

with a background in psychology and biology and advanced training and personal development. Ben has spoken on stages from the United Nations to Ivy League universities, sharing tools to help people reset, rebuild, and realize what they truly want in life and relationships. Ben, thank you for being here today. Thank you Heather.

That was best. You're just, you know, the way that you hype it up, you're just such a stage person. I love it. I'm a hype. I'm like everybody's number one hype guy, right? Like I totally am. Okay, now Ben, let's get to this. I told you offline, one of my girlfriends, Vanessa, who got me to bring Nico on the show. She got me to bring you on the show.

She is a huge fan of yours. So take back to, and I've been down the rabbit hole. I love your content. I love what you're doing and love the humor that you add into dating, relationships. It makes it fun, which I think is so important. Tell us a little bit about like, how does it become a dating strategist?

Like where's all this, like how does it happen? Yeah, it's a good question. By the way, shout out to Vanessa. Shout out to Vanessa. Get right over to the show. Where did it come from? You know, honestly, I came from the entrepreneurship space. I had a startup in my 20s

and we merged with a media company. And then I started doing some consulting and I was doing some content around high level personal development, which is kind of like where my book, I wrote a book called The Zero Mindset back in 2021. It was around recalibrating points of zeros in your life so you can develop a different mindset, risk assessment, ideas of failure, what that meant, redefining it.

It niched itself into the dating world. Like I've been, I'm fascinated with the details and the intricacies of interaction, specifically in the context of attraction and dating. So I find that I've always found that super fascinating to me, I've been like, you know, and I have my own personal history of dating in New York for over 20 years. Like I kind of understand some of the things, you know,

and that's what kind of makes it maybe more unique than some others is that I try to make it fun. I started doing dating specific content in, what was it, end of 2023. I kind of took the content I was doing, which was very general, high level personal development. It was just a little too gray, if I'm being honest. I understood that too. When I started to say, I said, fuck it, let me just talk about this shit I really want to talk about. And I use TikTok as a playground for that. And then the first video I did, it just kind of started to go. And then I realized that obviously the dating

niche is a very interesting one. But I realized that I was going to quadruple down on something that I feel like if you just asked me a question, I could just kind of go on. Whereas some other topics I was like, all right, let me think I feel like if you just asked me a question, I could just kind of go on where some other topics I was like, all right, let me think about one, two, three. These are kind of things I can kind of just flow with became more of like a flow state thing for me. And that's kind of just how it really started.

And then, you know, everything for me over the last year and some change has been a result of me using TikTok as a playground. That's so interesting to me. And I love that you had the confidence or courage to pivot from what you were doing to try to lean into something new and then see that this was actually coming easier to you

and that allowed you to make that transition. Yeah, it was like a point of zero for me. I didn't know what to expect here, right? Like it was, that's one of the reasons why TikTok was big for me because it was a place where nobody knew me. And that was really important because I didn't have an identity box I've already established. Like, you know, when you're on Instagram, you know, you're all of a sudden you're a long lost

ants there. And then like other people are starting to be like, who's this dude now? You know, and TikTok was that thing for me was like, nobody knows me. Let me just say the shit I want to say and test it out there. And then when I did that, you know, after like nine, 10 months, then I brought it to Instagram. So it took you a little bit of time to get more confidence in what you were doing so that you felt you weren't an imposter. Yeah, I felt like it gave me more... It took a while for me to gain the confidence

to give it, to distribute it and talk about that around people I already knew. You know, like that's kind of the identity box, right? You establish an identity and it becomes a perceived risk when you're like, I think we can talk about that around people I already knew. You know, like that's kind of the identity box. You establish an identity and it becomes a perceived risk when you're like, well, do I want to hop out of this box? And do I care? Why do I care? Which everybody cares to a degree.

And then, you know, there was a point that it came where, where once I started to get more wildly accepted, I started to care a little bit less. So it's a journey to get to the point where you can actually take a leap. I think so. At least for me it was. I think it is. You know, I think depending how deep engulfed you are in like in an identity, I think it could be more risky for people. Yeah, I can just give the analogy for everyone listening. When I left corporate America, I wanted to go to work for myself, but I was so scared to your point. And I didn't want to hear from the naysayers. No, go back to corporate. This is what you're good at. I wanted to tune that noise out.

So I quietly was writing a book and not telling anyone. Like I was doing all these things. Like you were doing it on TikTok to build up your confidence. I was doing things silently and not letting people know. And even once I finally had it out, I still wasn't changing my profile on LinkedIn. I was still, there's trepidation. And for me, it was really around imposter syndrome.

But once you get to a place, you're like, wait a minute, I'm getting a little traction. I gotta rip the bandaid off and then you go all in. Yeah, for sure. And that takes some time sometimes with people, right? Like different people have different, the way they absorb that kind of pressure or perceived pressure from society

or their close circles. Okay, so your ideal client, the people that you work with are women. Yeah, yeah. And what is the age group that you're targeting? Quite honestly, I think it depends, right? But most of the women that do tend to follow me and the advice I tend to give is,

I would say from, you know, it kind of goes, right? I have, let me give you an example. I have one of my group that's 78. It does span a little bit depending on where kind of goes, right? I have, let me give you an example. I have one of my group that's 78. It does span a little bit depending on where you're at, right, and most people that are starting to want to date more intentionally or with purposes like they call it are people that have kind of gotten past the fun moments and want to take things a little bit more serious now.

And that tends to be more around like 28 to 55, if I were to give like an average. Okay, so you've worked with a lot of women at this point. You've got a lot of feedback in regards to what's landing with people, what's not. What are you seeing generally for people listening? Like what are some of the biggest issues that you see that you're like right away, you know,

oh, we're gonna have to deal with this with women dating? Yeah, I think the women dating thing has been very interesting for me because that became a very quick focus point in mind because I realized that their troubles are very different from a lot of the male troubles, especially in the age bracket that they want to start taking things a little more seriously.

And when they, you know, there's a struggle. So I always kind of say this reference. For men, it's most of the time, it's about their struggle is getting to date one. And for women, their struggle is typically past date one or three. And they're trying, because they've already chosen a guy that has, let's say they've cut 45 out of the 50 that have come at them and approached them. But the five that they've chosen, they start to get a little more invested in when they start to go out with them. So two specific struggles. Number one is

and they start to get a little more invested in when they start to go out with them. So two specific struggles. Number one is navigating after date one, which is like how to maintain, how to not get so attached to an outcome, how to stop telling stories about what's going on and what's not going on. Whereas I think guys have a little bit less of that as a problem. And number two, what I see being the bigger issue is sometimes a lot of women can get in their own way in terms of being approachable or open for the kind of guy they want. So those are the two the two things is like being approachable and open to the kind of guy you want, kind of like low key choosing. And then the other part is kind of like keeping and maintaining early stage up and not driving yourself crazy. OK, so give us the feedback that you have on both of those points.

Feedback in terms of like, what do people think of them? What advice do you give to women that are telling themselves stories that aren't true that are getting too attached too quickly? Like how do you respond to them on these two big issues that you're seeing? Well there's number one, I think that they get very confused because they're trying to figure out how does the guy feel? What does this mean when he does this? What happens when I don't talk to him for a week?

The reality is there's two things that qualify a guy showing interest. That means he's interested. Number one, does he take you out? And if he doesn't take you out, it's really irrelevant at that point. And number two, is there some realm of does it get to a place where he's showing committed behaviors and it leads to some kind of commitment? Because most of them when I talk to you are always looking for some sort of commitment. They don't want to just be out here and dilly dallying and have a good time. Because then at some point,

they actually do get a little bit more attached to this guy and they actually don't want to date four or five others. They're looking for one dude that they really like. That's one. Number two is one of the things I always emphasize is when I talk about past proximity, eye contact, smile, those are the three kind of like buckets that I put in for like sending, choosing signals,

stop being so face down. Because a lot of guys are not going to approach women who are not approachable. Now, sure, there's a select few of women that are going to get approached no matter what they do, but that's not a majority of women. And people have to understand that maybe you don't live in that category. Maybe you have to actually be a little more approachable, friendly, make some eye contact, crack a smile here and there, get around him. That's why I call it Pest, proximity, eye contact, smile.

So those are the kind of things I typically tend to the intricacies and the nuances of being approachable. And then like the framework of how to maintain the interest post date one. And sometimes, yes, I advise getting a little flirty, but I also understand that like, don't get so attached to a specific outcome, like trying to close a deal, like we're not closing a deal here. You gotta, you're vetting him too. And sometimes people forget that.

They forget that once they choose, they think, oh, I kind of like this guy, but you're vetting him too along the way. You should be seeing his behaviors as they unfold as he's doing for you. Oh, I love that. Yeah, because I think so often, especially if you're dealing with women

who have some success in business, they're looking at more like what you're saying as like, okay, this outcome that I want, this relationship that I want, and where are we versus that outcome instead of, wait a minute, do I want to keep showing up and choosing this person after date one, date two, and date three? Yeah. And I think that's an important question to ask. And it's also an important question to ask is when you consider like, okay, I want X,

I want X type of guy. What does X type of guy want? And I'm going to tell you, not a lot of women ask that question. That I could definitely tell you. They don't ask the question of the kind of guy I want, what is he looking for? And I think it's, listen, I think that a lot of women that I speak to, a lot of them are on my channel, it's difficult because when you're in a place where you've never really had to like understand men, you know, because a lot of men kind of have to understand the basics of women just to get to first date, which is like, well, what's going to turn on? Why did I just turn her off?

Why does she turn me down there? What was the deal? There's a part of them that have to be that. And when you've never really had to understand men, when you choose the guy, all of a sudden you just have to understand the behaviors a little bit more and make some good decisions. And sometimes that can be difficult for people. So I try to make it fun. But my method is essentially it's all about, I'm very big on accountability.

So I do put the mirror up to a lot of people and I'm not a big back rubber. And not to say that I couldn't be, but on my one-on-ones, I definitely am. I'm understanding and empathetic, but in general, you kind of have to look in the mirror. If you keep attracting F boy, I mean, there's a common denominator here, and you can't just be thinking about, it's everybody else's problem.

And I think that's very empowering. And I think that that can kind of get, the message can get a little diluted if you're not considering it actually an empowering thing, that you actually have more control than you think. That's so true. You're reminding me of a conversation I had earlier with one of my girlfriends who's married.

And I feel like this advice, it doesn't stop with dating, right, it's still in any relationship. You need to more look at yourself and how you're showing up daily to get the responses that you are getting and what can you do to change if you want a different outcome, if you want a stronger relationship

that goes for wherever you are in life. Totally. And like, you know, I don't, my point is, I also don't want to see people get caught up in this like victimhood of like, you know, for example, there's plenty of them, but like, I'll give you one. Like, you know, there's, oh, okay, a guy, I was in a situation with a guy for six months,

I don't know what to do. I'm like, why would you be in a situation for six months? You know, like that right there is a basic level of like framework of accountability. Like you don't do six months situations I don't know what to do. I'm like, why would you be in a situation for six months? You know, like that right there is a basic level of like framework of accountability. Like you don't do six months situationships with a dude when you're looking for commitment as a whole. Doesn't work. Like the fact that you actually had control

whether this goes to a situationship or not. It's not just on the man because he led you down a situationship. You kind of stayed. Okay, what is a situationship? A situationship is basically anything besides relationship. And if we're getting very general about that, that's a situat ship is basically anythin And if I were forgetting that, that's a very genera

like it's anything besides you hang out a lot, no com stuff together. It's, you together or whatever. But other things where there' and that's what most peop ship kind of. So not having the conversation or communication that we're in a committed relationship, we're together, we're not dating anybody else.

Correct. Not having that conversation. See, like if you're somebody that cares about it, right? Like if you're somebody who says, yeah, you know, for example, let's say most women are calling, yes, I am looking for, you know, I would like a commitment that leads to marriage one day and I would like to have a family. Let's just give a classic example. Okay, there's an identity that happens, right?

This is the way I like to think about it, the way I always talk about it in each of these, there's outcome and then there's, who do I need to become to get outcome? And just like anything else, right? Like if you wanna get into Harvard, you gotta become Harvard student first before you get in the Harvard.

You can't say, once I get into Harvard, then I'll change. No, it's you have to say, okay, if I wanna be that, how would somebody like that carry herself? How would she make decisions? What would she put up with? What would she not put up with? And I'm gonna tell you, a lot of people that are in that framework of commitment

or one would call maybe wife or a husband wouldn't put up with certain behaviors that are not conducive for long-term success inside relationship. And that means no long-term situationships. You don't need to do all this stuff. And they would communicate thoroughly. They wouldn't be doing all this fuckery shit that I,

excuse my language, that I always see happen. And then blame the guy because he was a narcissistic, manipulative dude. Well, give us an example so that everyone listening can relate. An example of like what I hear? Yeah. Well, I've seen this guy for, you know, this guy is nine years older than me. I was seeing this guy for six and a half months.

And now he's telling me that he doesn't know if he wants to commit. He's still feeling things out and I don't know what to do here at this point. How do I get him to commit? I said, well, you can't get him to commit number one. But number two, you stay in a situation should wait too long. You shouldn't have been in situationship. You should have required commitment in order to continue this thing at month two and a half, max three, if that's what you wanted.

And especially, it might be a little bit different. And I say that, I'm giving a specific example right now. But if somebody, if a young girl says, hey, I would like to have a family and I'd like to get married, then that is pretty much a line you should start to draw. Now, if it's not that big of a deal, if you already have kids and you already has kids

and you guys just want to find somebody to share your life with, the rules can kind of bend and twist a little bit, but at the same time, you should still be transparent and communicative about those things that are important to you. So that's kind of one situation I can kind of outline. What does the future hold for business? Ask 9 experts and you'll get 10 answers. Bull market, bear market, rates will rise or fall, inflation's up or down.

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So to your point, they don't have kids yet. They haven't been married, right? And I agree. I'm 50 with a child. It's totally different dating at different times in your life because you have, you don't have the same pressure, right? And I completely, for anyone listening right now in your 30s that wants to have a baby,

I feel you and like do it. So to that end, and it is a weird thing that happened to me when I was, I turned 30, all of a sudden I woke up one day and I wanted to have a baby. Like it happens that fast. And for men listening to understand a woman's not crazy, all of a sudden you just have this strong calling to do something, it's going to change the way you behave

and the decisions that you make as a result. Now, a few of my girlfriends in their 30s are really directive and draw a super hard line. They're beautiful, they're great people, but I watch them and I take a step back then and I look at them, I'm like, you're crazy. Legit crazy. This is how I see it. I see them as being nuts.

How can you expect a man to know in 30 days, 60 days, if he wants to marry you, you would have a baby? Like, it just seems like a lot of pressure in drawing these hard lines. So what is your advisor direction for women in their 30s that do want to have a baby, but to my point, also don't want to be a lunatic and think people can just decide in 30 days

if they're going to marry you or not. I completely agree, by the way. As far as the marriage thing goes, that's like a different category. I think you got to get to know people a little bit. And, you know, I personally, especially for somebody in the 30s, I give it around like a year before he figures out

if he wants to marry her, but, or vice versa. But at the same time, right. And on the flip side of it is like, when I say hardline the sand, I mean, there's, it's a hard line is kind of the way you communicate that hardline. Some people are like, I'm not, I don't do this past that. And then that's probably not going to make somebody very interested to keep continuing with you anyway. But if you voice your, if you communicate thoroughly about what it is you're looking for, like, Hey, I've been having a really good time with you. I really enjoy this. But at this moment, I am looking for commitment to go things forward.

That's really important to me. And if that's not where you're at, I totally get that. But that's just kind of what I'm going to need in the board. If that's not it, I totally get it. That's a different perspective to have after, you know, 10, 12 weeks. And he's not saying he's going to marry you. He's saying, yes, I want to commit to you because commitment is on a route

to make maybe something a little bit deeper than that. And so I think that's very important. I think it's important to have intentions and purpose but understand that there's a way to communicate those things that makes somebody respect it and say, yeah, that makes sense. Some guys don't really see commitment in the way that a lot of girls do.

Some guys, if they hang out with you long enough, they'll just be like, yeah, we're in a relationship. We just never talked about it. I'd be like, why do we need to talk about it way that a lot of girls do. Some guys that they hang out with you long enough to just be like, yeah, we're in a relationship. We just never talked about it. I feel like why do we need to talk about it? Whereas a lot of girls are like, no, we kind of need to communicate about it because I want to know, I want to feel secure. Then when I'm with you, you're not seeing anybody else and I'm not seeing anybody else. And the investment makes sense to me. So there's partially that.

And I think that if you communicate some of that a little more thoroughly and have some expectations, so he understands where you're coming from. And if he doesn't want to, then cool, he doesn't want to. But marriage, I think is a little bit more longer. But even just the first level of commitment. If a guy doesn't know, he wants to commit to you every three months. I mean, that's kind of a problem,

especially in your 30s. So what's the right way then for them to approach it? Because to your point, hardlining someone really aggressively, in my opinion, is not, it's going to backfire. No one wants some woman attacking him and asking to be in a relationship. However, you need to communicate your truth. You need to communicate how you feel, what's important to you and what you want. What's the right approach that you think women should take?

I think the one I just kind of mentioned seems to work very well with people because it's letting them know that you don't wanna last in this situation because you're looking for other things in your life but if that's what he's looking for, no problem. That's like a soft line that you're trying to draw because you should have some boundary here. Like you don't wanna continue in these long situationships and then waste all of a sudden you get in

one, two, three situationships and all of a sudden you got like three or four years out of a prime moment for you. I don't think that's fair enough, right? And I think that you need to communicate it in a way that's understanding after you've vetted a little bit. A lot of women that I speak to are trying to figure out commitment a little too soon, like a couple of weeks in they're like, well, I don't know, you think he's going to commit? I'm like, well, you're still betting him. You're still going to get to know him. And that's why I kind of give the framework of like the two and a half, three month mark,

because it's fair enough, you guys have one, maybe two dates a week at that point. And that's a good like 12, etc. dates in there at minimum. And if he doesn't know if he wants to commit to you by then, you kind of have to make a call on it. And you can't just say, he should have done it. Well, he's not going to control your life. And he might see things very differently. So you should take control of your life and kind of do something on it. And you can't just say, he should have done it. Well, he's not going to control your life and he might see things very differently. So you should take control of your life and kind of do something about it. It doesn't have to be a hard line, but it has to be like,

well, hey, if this is not going to continue, I totally get it. That's fair. That's respectable. And he can only say, well, I really respect that, even if he didn't want to. What do you see in regards to men and women with masculine and feminine energy in dating today? What do I see? It depends, right? I think this like idea of femininity and masculinity has gotten a little overplayed,

but you can kind of see them go both sides, right? I can see you see more productive, successful women in the workplace that have kind of developed what one would call or consider a little bit more of masculine traits. And maybe you've seen that as a result, as a response, a lot of guys have sat back a little bit more of masculine traits. And maybe you've seen that as a result, as a response, a lot of guys have sat back a little bit more and not been overly aggressive in their pursue in some sense because of a variety of reasons, which we can get into.

But I've seen a little bit of that, right? You've seen a little bit more of a lighter pull on men just because of their jobs per se and what they do. And maybe testosterone is going down. All these things are playing a role. And, you know, hypergamy tends to be typically more real than not. And there is that. And that affects how women and men choose for sure.

So when you see, because I see a lot of this and I know this has been a situation for me, when you see women that have achieved success in corporate America and are very directive and more masculine in their approach and that starts bleeding into their relationships. I'm sure you've seen this with some of your clients. How do you direct them to manage that or balance it? That's a really hard balance. I'm not going to lie about that, right? Because guys don't

have that same problem. So I have to acknowledge that first. Women tend to have that problem because they think of it as like a switch. I don't think of it as like a switch. I think of it as like you can, by the way, some of the most productive, successful women I know are highly actually more in their feminine because in my opinion, I feel like the feminine controls the chessboard and they, some people haven't really figured out how to use and they use it as like a competitive streak to like compete with men. And then they want to like shut off the switch. And that's difficult. I think starting off that switch is hard to do. And I't think that's easy and I think about it very differently. I

think about you can be this way and you don't have to see a lot of girls will come in and say well he didn't make me feel like I could be feminine enough and I said well why is it so conditional? Why is your femininity so conditional? If a guy said this to you, you'd laugh him out the room and well she didn't make me feel good enough to make me be my masculine. You'd be like, come on. And I understand that there's traits of masculinity that that go into your your job and everything else. But you have to understand also, too, a lot of times you have that framework

when you're meeting new guys. Some guys look right past you because of that, because of how hard you are on the outside and more like that. Some guys, the guys that most of the women actually looking at are gonna look past them just because it's not the most attractive thing on a superficial. And now if they get to know them, fair enough.

But you can't assume that somebody has to break those walls down so quick right off the bat. So how do you work with women to help them be more in their feminine? Where you're saying that's the most powerful place for them to be. Yeah, and I'm not going to lie, like I'm not a femininity coach, so I don't like teach them all these details about how to be more feminine. I think that would be a little bit out of my league, if I'm being honest. So I kind of, I feel like I kind of know my limits.

Like even when people call into my stream, like I have a live stream that I do on TikTok, Monday through Thursday. And they'll start going into like childhood stuff. I'm like, listen, I'm not a therapist. I'm not gonna lie to you. I'm going to stop this right here because one, I'm not qualified. Two, I don't talk about relationships. And three, I don't talk about marriage. I specifically stick to early stage dating. And I think that's important because the early stage is like, how do you start to attract the kind of guy you want? And I think a lot of the qualities I was talking about being just a little bit more, I guess we use these buzzwords like feminine or a little bit more softer, a little more open, a little more caring, a little more present, you're presenting in that light as opposed to presenting like you're a ball buster. And I think that when guys sense the ball busting,

they tend to leave. So maybe let me reaffirm the question. You talk about how a woman can flirt in different ways they can flirt. What are some of the ways you've discussed in that regard? Oh, for sure. I mean, I talk about a lot of different things, right? So a couple things I kind of made up along the way, which is the pest, which I originally talked about before,

like the basics, fundamentals of flirting. And I talked about the double bag Bonnie, which is like eye contact and looking back when you pass a dude, you know, you make eye contact, you pass them, you look back, it's like giving the keys to the key. And I talk about a lot of different ways to flirt, but like, I was talking about breaking the touch barrier. Like these, you know, eye contact smile and breaking the touch barrier,

specifically like on date one or after date or after date one. and breaking the touch barrier, specifically like on date one or after date one, are little things that you will start to see how fast they start to ignite men to want to do more for you. I feel like when you don't have those tools, it's harder to get men to be like, oh yeah, I really want to step up. Isn't it all? Honestly, yeah, a lot of men are a little bit driven by ego, but they're driven also a little bit by they want to be able to do something here. And if they don't say

they can do, there's very little they there's little ambition to want to do. And so I think that's important. That's why I kind of like I always talk about like, you know, when you're walking next to him, grab hook his arm, like little things like that, they're going to make a huge difference in how he treats you forward. So I talk about those things, which I feel like you could say could play a little bit in being a little more feminine, but it's really just being more open and flirty. But you know, it's interesting, and my girlfriend, Vanessa, was telling me about this, she's talking a lot about the looking back idea that you have. And one of the things that came to my mind was this, if someone is not super confident in themselves, I would think of myself if I was single and at a bar

and someone locked eyes with me, to look back at them at, that takes a lot of courage and confidence, don't you think? I don't know. I mean, listen, I could see a woman's perspective on that, but like, where's the L? Like, where's the L?

Like, what's the fear of? Like, what's the fear associated with it? I'm just trying to understand. I get these questions all the time, I talk about it all the time, but like, what's the L? Like, what's the fear of? Like, what's the fear associated with it? I'm just trying to understand. I get these questions all the time, I talk about it all the time, but like, what's the L you're fearing? Is that they don't look like, it's just, sometimes it's like the story

that's being framed about what's happening here. And like this story is like, one story is, oh, if I try and I don't get it, damn, that hits me. You know, I think that part of the thing is that guys are so accustomed to failure in some way, when especially when it comes to this, like they get shut down so much. Even the most like good looking throw, he gets shut down too. Believe it or not, he gets shut down more than a lot of women

think. And I think that if you redefine the story of like looking back or giving a look or just presenting yourself in an open manner, or even just even saying hi, oh my God, I know crazy, crazy theory. But even that is like when you reframe it to being like, oh, I'm just going to be like a exuberant, nice human being, as opposed to like trying to like get at measure every little outcome of your look. Like that doesn't make a lot of sense. Because of course, you're going to look back at some point, and the guy's not gonna be looking back. What is that gonna like put a thorn through your heart or something? Like what's happening here? This is just part of the thing right and like it's not like women haven't always done this in the past too

They've given some eye contact. They used to drop the handkerchief like all these things are very real And would they always work out? No, but that's a part of the interaction between men and women, you know I love that reframe. Yeah, you're right. That is not a big L and I appreciate Yeah, I get the fear. I talk to so many women, they're saying, women tell me that they don't even look at the guys they like. They can look at the guys they're not that interested in, but the guys who are interested in, they just totally avoid eye contact with them.

I said, well, I don't understand. The waffle brain of mine doesn't really get that, but I get why that maybe makes sense for you, but for any guy, guy, like, I don't understand that at all. It makes no sense. And because of right, what we were talking about before, maybe guys have gotten a little more hesitant to approach girls for a variety of reasons, but you could argue, yes, guys have gotten a little, uh, a little more risk adverse in that sense, but also on the flip side of that, and this is not me defending guys because I've met a ton of dweebs and bums and everything else. But on the flip side of that, and this is not me defending guys because I've met a ton of dweebs and bums and everything else, but on the flip side of that, I have to mention that

when guys are on social, just like a lot of girls are, they see a lot of women talking shit about a lot of men. Basically saying like, oh, they're putting their hinge profiles up and saying, this creep was in this gym looking at me, and they get this reinforced into their system. And they're like, I ain't gonna do that. Fuck that. I'm not getting put in hurt too tight. So there's this hesitancy with being a little too much where some girls would be like, oh, what are you doing?

That happens. Even just saying hi, that happens. Now again, there's a line to be drawn where guys don't know how to come off and they can do some stupid shit. Of course they can. But there is a hesitancy also because of that moment too, whereas they're fearful of some girl going on and talking shit about them or her entering the group chat. This guy was a creep. So there's the hesitancy

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So one of the questions that she was asking about is when a man pulls away, she's been dating a guy for a while, and then all of a sudden, she's not hearing from a week at a time, what is the right way to handle that, and is that normal? I think it depends, right?

That would really depend on how long we're talking. Like if she's been seeing him for like four months, or if she's been seeing him for like two weeks. She's been seeing him for two months. Two months, so he starts to pull back. So you pull him back, like not talking to her for a week. All right, and he was talking to her for more than that before.

Yeah. So something changed. Right. Right. That just means he's losing interest. It means he's lost interest or he's losing interest or he found some, most of the time that's typically the case. When a guy starts pulling back and he's not, or he's losing interest or he found some most of the time that's typically the case when a guy starts pulling back and He's not and he's any and he had an energy at first and that energy changed for whatever reason Doesn't necessarily have to be her even it could just be like why I just don't see myself Getting down on one knee for this girl and maybe

There's a lot of factors. I might he's not gonna Slam the door shut a lot of guys keep the crack open, but they're not gonna like, hey, this isn't working out. It happens, but it's rare. It happens. But it's just not as common. Whereas a lot of guys will keep the door open.

And sometimes, they may find their attention going elsewhere. Maybe there's another girl that's taking up their time and energy, and they're like, okay, well, I just don't feel over her as much, but I'm not gonna be like, I don't like you because X, Y, and Z. Okay, so I gave her different advice. Wait, this is so interesting to me.

So I was saying to her in my experience, there's a few things that can happen. And I'm super interested in your opinion on this, obviously, is I think one, something could be going on in his work life, in his business life, with his child, like with his situation that is overwhelming, consuming negative, and he's letting it negative spiral his life. And so he's not paying as much attention to her and probably other things at the time, but that it might not even have anything to do with her. So maybe that's a time to reach out to him and say, hey, just wanted to check in on you.

Like I was going to put your face on a milk cart and what's going on? Are you okay? You know, okay, that's one option. Or could it be that, you know, they started getting really close and it freaked him out and he took a step back to say, wait a minute, do I really want to get into a serious relationship at this point?

What do you think about those responses? Yeah, the second one is very valid. I agree with you. That he could have gotten really close, but not necessarily freaked out of success, just freaked out of the fact that he like didn't see he probably didn't see a future with him. He's like, I don't want to get any closer because it feels like wrong, but also feels like maybe I should take a step back here. That's possible. The first one, would you say again, the first one that, uh,

the first one I was thinking, we don't know what we want to create a story for people. We don't really until we ask them, we don't know. He could be in a custody battle right now with his child that something happened with his ex-wife and we had no idea about it. And he feels like he needs to be showing up every day for his kid and he's trying to keep work together at the same time. And he's putting her mentally on a back burner because he thinks everything's fine with her and not even like real life.

I noticed that sometimes men aren't even aware that a woman's like, what is going on over here? And if you don't communicate something to him to say, what's going on with you, he's not gonna realize that he took a big step back. Yeah, and listen, by the way, I don't disagree with that. You know, here's the thing, right? Like that could always be the case. And depending on the phase of life,

depending if he has kids, like these things matter, right? Like you're talking about a guy who's like living in the city at like 32, you're talking about a guy that's like has a house and he's 55 or 60 and he has kids. Like these things matter, right? Like you're talking about a guy who's like living in the city at like 32. You're talking about a guy that's like has a house and he's 55 or 60 and he has kids like these two different scenarios. And I want to separate those. But either way, right, let's just say, and this is this is this is a classic example, too. So this is good to actually talk. Either way, this goes,

right, we can come up with theories. And we can say, hey, he, this is the reason. And that's the reason. And that's the reason. And maybe some of those are going to overlap to be correct, but who knows, until it's communicated. So I value communication. I put it very high and I agree with you. I think that if you want to find out, go find out. And that means, hey, like you just said, hey, I was going to put your face in the motor car and haven't seen in a while. Like there's nothing wrong with that. There's just like a fear attached to that. Just like there's a fear of making eye contact with the dude. It's like, well, I don't want to, I don't want to not hear from him. Then I'm going to have to sit in my room

and just pout for a week because I can't figure out what about me he doesn't like. There's a lot of associations with that story. But either way this goes, you have to have enough kind of like yes in you to say, okay, let me reach out. Because I'm not the guy to be like, oh, just ghost his ass. I don't believe in that shit. Especially if you're starting to talk to somebody and it's been like two months, you're already getting accustomed to getting in a routine. What's the problem with communicating? So I'm big on communication.

So I don't disagree with actually both of those things you said. So it could be he lost interest, could be he's seeing another girl, could be he's going through something. It could be all those things. And all those things are valid. But unless you are willing to communicate,

especially at two months in, to figure out what it is. And by the way, you reach out and he doesn't get back to you or he gets back two days later, you know, you know. And then you can say, okay, well, now I've put my best foot forward. I tried and now I can just say, okay, well, it's not gonna work out. And that's okay.

But at least you know that you don't have to live in regret. Like, why didn't I even ask the dude? I love that. Yeah. Don't live in regret. Don't just don't make up the story to your point. Don't make up a false story that is not true because that's not fair to him or to you. And then the second thing is get rid of your past stories and just take the leap and ask.

So you don't have to wake up and say, oh gosh, I wonder what happened to that relationship. I'm never going to know. Because then you're not going to learn from it and then you're not going to wake up and say, oh gosh, I wonder what happened to that relationship. I'm never gonna know. Cause then you're not gonna learn from it and then you're not gonna be better. Oh yeah, big time. Like, you know, for the level of anxiety that a lot of women that I speak to have,

their fear of communicating exceeds that. It's like there's just high level of fear associated with saying something that's gonna scare them off. I'm like, what do you think is gonna get scared off from your communication? If you get scared off from your communication, it doesn't like you like that. Like we have to kind of make decisions kind of in some capacity, right? And like,

how could you even move forward without saying to yourself, well, at least I tried? I don't know. You know, I think that's with everybody, guys too. If they're, if they have an inability to communicate something and they're not communicating, like everyone would just be like, you're soft. What is your issue? A lot of this seems to go back to confidence and belief in yourself and knowing that if this isn't the right person, that's okay. There's gonna be, if this door closes, a better one's gonna open.

There's someone else better out there for me. Is that what you're seeing happen with a lot of these women that's afraid that there's only one? 100%. And this is kind of like in your expertise as well, I'm sure, especially with the confidence building, you know, but a lot of it is that story. And I always go back to that.

Cause this is a typical topic that I always hear is like, well, then that means this and that means this. And like, we can all draw these assumptions. Why don't there's a story that's attached to the reason why you're not doing something. And I think you need to tell a different story. You need to say, well, maybe, you know what, maybe I'm going to go and be my best self

and I'm going to communicate thoroughly. And if somebody doesn't wanna communicate that thoroughly, then maybe that's not for me. There's a more empowering way to deal with this as opposed to just being so fearful all the time. You can't kind of scare a guy that likes you away because you communicate. I just, I don't see that ever happening.

It's so good for women to hear that. I love it. Okay. What if you see women who have been dating, they're discouraged, right? Because you know this, there's not always the greatest guys out there. There's not always the greatest women out there, right? So some people might have some bad dates, bad experiences, and they're just down on dating.

Do you recommend that people take a break from it, go back to your regular life, take the focus off? Or do you say it's a numbers game, keep going through? It depends on the situation, but I will say that like, if you've just gotten your heart broken, that's one thing, then maybe you need to take a little bit off and like be like, okay, I need to regain yourself and refocus a little bit.

But like, I'm not a big proponent of like taking a lot of time off because a lot of people get really engulfed in routines and they get very comfortable in their own routines and they find it very difficult to now actually do something that's in their favor that's going to be their benefit even though they know it's going to be in the benefit. But when I talk about confidence specifically, what I talk about is building momentum within confidence. So I talk about bits of progress. And I always say, stop thinking about the big gigantic goal and really start to smallest bit of progress. Example, small bit of progress. Okay, you're an

introvert, you're an avoidant, whatever we want to call you. And you're inside and you have a very difficult time interacting with people. Small bit of progress is literally just going around certain guys. Small bit, one bit. Next time, next time is just looking at it, dude. Small bit of progress. All of a sudden, you start to see the benefit of all these small bits of progress and that starts to build a viable course of momentum for you. Then momentum starts to actually build confidence, but you don't want to overwhelm people by being like, you got to go in here and look at them and smile at them and stand next to them. They're going to be like, I would never do that. But just, you know, just get off your couch. Number one, get outside and

just take a walk. Number two, when you see a guy, maybe just stand next to him for a second, pretend number three, like these small bits of progress tend to work, right? And I've worked with women who've been like, I'm just really afraid to like, you know, I don't want to go out alone or with a friend and actually focus on this. I said, okay, well, you don't have to, you know, you could just, you do what you, you do what you want to do. But there's a beautiful thing that many women have said, you know what, Benny, I can't believe it actually, I just went to the bar and the story about going to

like a restaurant, let's just say, for example, there's a story story like, I don't want to go to a restaurant and be that girl. I was like, no, no, you're just going to restaurant to have a dish or to grab a wine. You're not going for a specific, you're just placing yourself. You're not even doing it. I don't want you to do anything. Just go. The smallest bit. And then all of a sudden, like things just start happening because they just have one bit of progress. And then, by the way, not even the fact that a guy comes up to you, a guy can just look at you and all of a sudden, a woman who has been out of the dating scene for like 20 years, I've worked with plenty of them, but they've had this moment where it's like, I don't know

how to date, it's so new, it's so different. Just putting yourself in a position where you dress up nice, you go out, you just have an hour to yourself out and you get one look from a guy. And all of a sudden you're like, wow, you know, he didn't do anything, but I kind of like the look. And then you act next, I mean, the guy smiled at me and he was talking to me, but he didn't ask my number,

but I liked it, it was really good. Those are the momentum pieces. And I just find that when you overwhelm the story with all the expectations you have, you tend to fall short of all of them. And it's really important to detach from an outcome, but just start getting engulfed in embracing the process and putting yourself in position.

You know what's so interesting to me is, you were just describing that, which I completely agree with. It reminded me, you could be talking about finding a job. You could be talking about finding your confidence. You could be talking about finding your confidence. You could be talking about starting out at the gym and finding your health, right? Like these are universal truths that can be applied to anything

and don't have to be so mysterious. It's really the same methodology to create a relationship as it is to create business and create confidence. Totally, and that's where it stemmed from. Like when I wrote the book, I've been in like the startup business world a little bit, but like,, and that's where I stem from. When I wrote the book, I've been in the startup business world a little bit, but that's kind of where this came from. It was more like, honestly, I don't say anything innovative.

It's really sometimes, my delivery is a little bit different, but it's nothing innovative. It's very, very fundamental. It's very fundamentally basic on getting specific outcomes and kind of getting engulfed in the process and enjoying the moment and having fun and doing those things. I think that dating, specifically for a lot of people, is difficult because they've developed a structure around a lot of other aspects of life, like their work and their school and their gym routines. There's a lot of structure associated

with you do X, you get Y. I think that with dating, there's not a lot of structure. A lot of people have this really unique Disney story, fairy tale attached to how it should happen. And not a lot of people actually like to think about dating strategically. And I get why it's not an attractive thing to be like, oh, what do you mean I gotta do this, this, and this? I'm like, well, you don't have to do anything.

But if you think about it a little bit more strategically without focusing on the hard truth to the details, just strategically framework and then think about how to progress that aspect of your life. If you don't think about dating or dating fundamentally with more purpose or more intention, I don't see how you just expect things to happen. I don't know what other part of your life do you expect things to happen. I think that it's a rewire of like, well, maybe I need to put some focus on it because dating has changed so drastically over the last decade that maybe it's worth with the abundance realm of what of availability of people

online and the attention you get, how do you start to focus that into a place where you can start to get some momentum in dating to your point, by the way, it's just very fundamental. It's not like anything crazy. Oh, and I love that because it's doable and you can see how you've done it in other aspects of your life. So why couldn't you do it in this aspect as well?

Right, and I just think that a lot of people don't like to think of it that way. That's my point. It's like, it's supposed to be romantic. It's supposed to be gray and mysterious and undefined and beautiful and not so thought through. But you're right. If you don't have an intention and you aren't sending that intention and taking some action steps towards it, you could be waiting a heck of a lot longer.

Oh, a lot longer. And like, you know, I always talk about like there's people who operate like leaps, you know, I use this term because like leaps, like whatever way the wind blows, I blow, you know, what are you looking for? Whatever. I don't know. We'll see. And that's okay. If you don't have any wants and desires, nobody's going to press you to want that. But like, just nobody wants to hear it later.

That's all. We just don't want to hear. I don't know why it didn't happen, but like, you know, that's all. Okay. So what is the one piece of advice that you want to leave the audience with before we wrap up? I would say the one piece of advice if I have any advice is honestly consume less and have some fun.

And I think we've gotten to a consumer culture when it comes to getting advice and getting input from people online and friend groups. And you're overly bombarded with information when it comes to this aspect of your life and it's kind of paralyzing people and it's making people very fearful and scared. And you know, one woman asked me on a podcast before, she said, well, you know, why should women listen to us? I don't think they should. In fact, they'd be better off just not listening to anybody and just going to live their life

and having some fun and without overcomplicating all this because the more you consume, all of a sudden everything becomes a problem. You're over-analyzing everything. But I heard online, what do you have to say about that? I don't have anything to say, just go live your life. How about that? Just don't listen to anybody. You'll be so much better off.

Like part of my stuff is like, I don't, even when I take my one-on-ones, I don't get you one, I have one time with you. I don't need any more. We don't need to do this every week. If you want to, fantastic. But this is not, this is not what I'm doing here. Reframe it a little bit and then you go live your life.

Don't overcomplicate this. I love how simple your advice is. And this is what I take away from this conversation is listen to you over everything. Have fun, just go out, have fun and live your life. Have some intention on what it is that you are looking for. Listen to your own self and take chances. Don't be afraid and stop overthinking. I mean, it sounds so simple. Hopefully we can all put it into motion. Ben,

tell us how can people join your groups? Where do they follow you? How can they find you? Ben Berger Yeah, I appreciate that. And thank you for summarizing it up. It actually beautifully said. You can find me at Benny Inc., B-N-N-Y-I-N-C on Instagram, TikTok, and I have a dating with purpose community that anybody can sign up for. It's a subscription, but anybody can sign up for it on my website, bennyhartink.com, and that's it. Well, thank you for the work that you are doing to bring more love into people's lives

and encourage them to believe in themselves and have more fun. You're the best, Heather, thank you. All right, guys, until next week, keep creating your confidence. You know I will be. I'm on this journey with me. I'm gonna make it my own way.

I decided to change that dynamic. I'm gonna make it my own way. I couldn't be more excited for what you're gonna hear. Start learning and growing. Inevitably something will happen. No one succeeds alone. You don't stop and look around once in a while. You could miss it.

I'm on this journey with me.