Creating Confidence with Heather Monahan - The Boldness of Equality in Corporate America with Marissa Orr Episode 26

Episode Date: October 29, 2019

Marissa Orr, speaker, former executive at Google and Facebook and author of Lean Out: The Truth About Women, Power, & the Workplace, joins Heather to discuss her disenchantment with power structures in the workplace and negativity stemming from both men and women. See acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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To discover how you can add ETFs to your portfolio, visit Global on Apple Podcasts and podcast one. Each week when you join me, firecast one, you're going to chase down our goals, overcome adversity and set you up for better tomorrow. After you've seen that, come on this journey with me. Hi and welcome back. I'm so glad you're here. So a lot to catch you up on in the last week I gave my first TED Talk, which is crazy. And I freaked out. I, you know, I've been speaking so much the past few months. I didn't anticipate getting nervous because I don't get nervous when I speak, but I will tell you I completely lost it.

And for probably a month I've been working really intently and intensely on the talk, but it came down to that day and I just I freaked out. Totally unexpected, not cool. Not happy about it. But I mean it just... The day started off great and then they... I was a first speaker, so they said, hey Heather, why don't you jump up on the red dot? And go through like the first five minutes of your talk and we'll, you know, do a mic check and I said, yeah, great You know, so excited because that would be helpful. You know that you're getting up there before you're really getting up there so I was in my sweats and I just jumped up there and the first couple of minutes were

great and I was killing it and then I completely went blank and couldn't remember what I was supposed to say. That's never happened in my life that I was speechless but I was and I just froze standing there and they were like, oh, whatever, you just, you know, Heather just forgot what she's going to say, whatever. And there was this woman that works with speakers that was there. And she's like, oh, you know, I have a friend that did the same thing. He was a kicker in the NFL and it was the most important game of his life. And he just blew it.

And I was so taken aback by that comment that I had to get out of there. I just said, you know what, here's what I need. I need to leave. And I needed to be around people that I know love me, that lift me up, that know what I need. And that is to let me just vent, support me, and encourage me.

And so the makeup artist and hairdresser that I have are awesome. And I just went to the hotel room and they pumped me up while they were getting me ready. And I just kept going over my notes and going over my notes again and again. And I just kept focusing on the one word, you know, that transition word that I couldn't, I wasn't able to grasp when I was on the stage, but I just kept focusing on that and hopes that, wow, I hope when I get back up there, that doesn't happen, you know, it was super, super stressful, holy cow. But I got through it and right before I was gonna get on stage for real, someone said, hey, here's some lavender and I love lavender. So lavender for the wind totally calm me down and I will tell you everyone was freaking out backstage.

It's really crazy because it all boils down to I got 10 minutes on that dot. It is going to be out there forever, right? So if you're nervous, it's it's just out there. If you're going to forget a line, if you're gonna forget what you were talking about, there's no do over, you know, and I guess that pressure of just the Ted circle, that moment really hit me hard. So I just, you know, they called me out there and I just thought, okay, throw your arms up in the air, kid, and like make this thing happen. Just go. Okay, throw your arms up in the air, kid, and like make this thing happen, just go. And it was one of those moments I said to myself, Heather, you feel fear, fear is a green light, it means go.

You're stepping into something big. Let's do it. And I was just petrified. So I am so interested to know what you think when you see it, I got really good feedback. They always say that you either own the talk or the talk owns you. I really own the talk and I feel very proud

of what I did, especially knowing how scared I was. I just wonder if people will be able to hear that if my voice or not. I'm sure I will, but I guess we'll see. So now it's all about promoting the talk. I'm in New York right now. I just did the Nikki Glaser podcast this morning on SeriousXM.

She's the most amazing person. She's so encouraging, so sweet. And I just, she's 35 and she reminds me of myself 10 years ago and it was just, it's crazy. She's struggling with all the dating and, oh gosh, dating the wrong guys and, oh my gosh, too way too close to home for me. But she's the best.

And I was so grateful for that opportunity today. Tomorrow I'm going on Gary Vee's show this afternoon. I'm interviewing someone for the podcast. And so I'm just, I'm really focusing on promoting the TED talk, even though it's not out yet, which is crazy. So the way that it works is you do your talk and then somewhere between a week, two week,

three weeks, Ted puts it out there. So I guess when they're ready, it goes into a queue until they're ready and it's not even yours. It's so weird you have to sign your rights away to it. So kind of crazy, a lot of pressure. I'm relieved it's over. The problem is I thought I was so funny and I put a joke in my

TED Talk that, oh, I'll reveal that in my next TED Talk. And I think I'm a little joker and that that was so cute. Well, now, like, seven people came up to me the minute I got off stage. When's your next TED Talk? And all I thought is, I don't even want to do another TED Talk because it's got so stressful for me. In the end, that's freaking out. Why would I do this to myself again? And so now I sort of feel like I have no choice. I have to do another TED talk because I put that in there. But we'll see, okay.

So for now, what's kind of interesting is my TED talk is, it's a Me Too movement, misstep or mistake as a title. And basically what that's about is, listen, yeah, men have been called out by Me Too. And that's good that they're shining a light on male harassers However, now it's time to look at the next layer of the me two movement And that's the women harassers that are out there not all women support other women and in fact, Nikki shared this today

Her biggest villain she's ever had in her career her life has been another woman same with me So sometimes I think women career her life has been another woman, same with me. So sometimes I think women expect men to harass potentially or they're not shocked by it, where when a woman does it to you, it hurts, it cuts a lot deeper. So anyways, that's what my talks about. And I, so today, today on the show, you're going to meet my guest who has been bullied by another woman. And it's kind of surprising who this woman is. So I'm really interested to see what you think about it. I'm really so flippant excited for you guys to see my talk. I'm excited to see it.

When the heck, why can't I see it? I wish, my gosh, I want to see it so bad. So I can't, I'll be sitting there with you on the couch waiting for YouTube to launch this thing, wondering, you know, sitting here just waiting, waiting, watching the clock tick. So, okay, I can't wait for the talk to come out. I appreciate all of your support. I got so many nice messages from everyone and it really means the world to me. And I tried to focus on that, on gratitude, on the support I was getting instead of focusing on my nerves.

And in the end, I think that really paid off. And that's what helped, you know, be the catalyst to get me out there in that little red dot when I didn't know if my feet were gonna move. But again, fear is a green light means go. So just step into it and all good things will happen. Of course, it to do your work, though, too. I mean, I definitely prepared for this. So put the time in, put the work in,

and then when you feel afraid, jump on in and let's go. So I can't wait to hear what you think about my guess. The timing is perfect, couldn't be better, and here we go. Hi and welcome back. Today I'm really excited for you to meet someone I just met. However, I did read her book. Marissa, or as you know, during her 15 years at today's top tech giants, Facebook and Google, I think you've probably heard of them. Marissa became disenchanted with a steady stream of advice coming from the mostly female leadership programs. Ignoring the real concerns faced by most working women and offering prescriptions for success that hinged on acting more like a man. She wrote Lean Out to tell another side of the story of women at work. And what's important for everyone to know is this is not an

interview just for women because it's really the book is so good and so interesting. There's about the complexity at work. You're not bashing boys in this book at all, which I want people to know right out of the gates that I want anyone to tune out. Because if anything, you're coming at women in this book. What do you think about that? Well, I think the part that resonates with both men and women is that so much of it

is a real cultural critique of corporate America, which anybody can relate to that's been in that world. And because I go into detail about all the problems with it and the dysfunction, I think it speaks equally to men and women. And I don't, I took on people's arguments, a lot of them happen to be women. And I tried to focus on deep, like sort of unraveling the argument instead of attacking the person, but yes, it's not a bashing man hating kind of book, I love men. And I love women and it's really just about that environment and why it causes things like the gender gap and other kind of dysfunction like why people are so unhappy

in that world. So, I think it really does have stuff in there that appeals to anyone that's worked in the corporate world. And I've also gotten letters from people about, you know, being able to relate to it even though they're not in that world because there's some universal human things that happen in the corporate world that happen everywhere. So it's relatable on a couple levels. All right, let's take it back and can you give all of us a little background into you where you're from my town now. I am from North Miami Beach, Florida. Actually,

I'm in LA, but moved to Miami when I was a baby. So I grew up there, went to school there, college there, and then I moved to New York. Boyed the same school, Cheryl Sandberg went to, you noted that in the book. I went to all the same grade schools at elementary middle high school, we grew up in a, you know, a few blocks late from each other, but she's 10 years older than me. So I didn't know her growing up. And then she went, she loves that you put that out there, by the way. I'm sure people get confused. They're like, oh, so did you

like have plate-aids with her? And I'm like, no, people get confused. They're like, oh, so did you like have plate-aids with her? And I'm like, no, it wasn't the same. And your kids will not be having plate-aids after this book. But go ahead. Perhaps not. But then she went off to Harvard two times, which you did not do, which I did not do. And by the way, she got two different degrees. She didn't have to repeat it. I went to University of Florida and I actually went to grad school there, moved to New York and started working at Google early on. How do you get a job at Google? That's pretty good.

That's so interesting. Yeah, tell me, hot jobs. Remember that? No. Yahoo hot jobs is like a job board in the late 90s, early 2000s. And I literally just supplied through hot jobs. It was really before Google became Google. So I always joke that I got in before I was lucky to get in before they raised their standards.

But yeah, it was, you know, still a very rigorous interview process. It was like eight or ten interviews. But man, they had this wall of free cereal when I was in their offices. I was like, this is my dream job. Hashtag goals. Yeah, exactly. And I spent 13 years there and then I worked a Facebook for about a year and a half. And that was a tough transition for you. It's tough as an understatement. So really, that's the whole prologue of the book and a story I actually post online too. So while I was at Google in the last few years there, I realized that I was in want of something. Something just wasn't, I had a great career there.

I was doing well, but I was missing a little bit of meaning or something. And I've always been really passionate about helping women and women's issues. So I decided I was really kind of disenchanted with the approach that they were taking to female leadership not only at the company, but nationally it was all kind of this similar perspective.

So I decided to write my own perspective on it, my own point of view, and it started in a conference from with a few friends, to think I grew, and before I left Google, I'd presented it to maybe over a thousand people. It's different companies. I did it as a lecture to a couple colleges in New York. And then when you try to stop you right there. Yeah, yeah.

When you were working for Google, they would allow you to go out and present your thesis to other companies and that was okay. Google was fantastic about that. They... I applaud that. Yeah, they were really amazing about that. And I think that's why it was such a shock when I went to Facebook and I was expecting that to be a similar

culture. And that was not allowed at all unless you went through this big approval process. The grass is not always greener. It's not always greener. And in fact, and I tell this story in the book too, I had this medium blog at the time when you had four people, four views on it and they came after you and I so Resonie with that because at my old crappy career in corporate America, the GC came at me the same way saying shut down your personal brand, shut down your website and it makes absolutely no sense. So paranoid. And for what reason I didn't understand, because like you said, I had three posts that were read by four people. And I showed them my parents were two of them. I was scared to show it to

anybody. It was just sort of me coming out as a writer for the first time. You know, that's scary. So when I got an email from the corporate communications person like, you, please take down your blog post, I was dumbfounded. Like, how did they find this? And why do they care? Why do they care? Didn't say Facebook, there was no way to know I was an employee there. I didn't talk about Facebook. It was just sort of my views about how like business planning affects creativity. I mean, could it be more boring? So it was really surprising. And they made me take it down. I said, well, what if I just put my initials if I change the name? So I had to change the name. I'm of course, I don't work there anymore. I changed it back and wrote a book about it. So

to really, they're, they're plans. I didn't work out so well. Do you regret leaving Google now in hindsight? Are you glad that this whole thing unravelled the way it did? I'm so happy. I left, but for different reasons. So I was super happy, uncomfortable, and secure, and safe at Google. I had... That is death.

Yeah, it's death. But I didn't know it at the time. Sure. And I was thinking, yeah, and so I had great friends that are still there, like family to me. I had secured enough of a reputation over the years that I had a large degree of autonomy and some flexibility, not that much as I do now, but I was safe and happy and comfortable and I think about to Facebook. I would have never really pursued this dream that was, and this book that was always inside of me that I knew deep down had to be written but probably didn't admit it to myself.

Probably would have just, I don't know, the thought scares me. So sometimes I think about what else am I safe and happy and comfortable with that I don't see? That's good perspective, right? Cause you're starting to open your eyes to it. So, but for me I'm really interested to because, as I mentioned when I met you, your book is really in your face. And I feel I'm an in your face kind of person. And my book confidence creator, I thought was in

their face, my old employers, I was petrified of getting sued. Marissa, I used to not sleep at night. I don't sleep at night still, but for different reasons, like my 12-year-olds torturing me right now. But back then, I couldn't sleep because I was so afraid, I was certain that GC was gonna shut me down, and I was gonna lose everything, and all for nothing, and why am I crazy? How do I think I'm gonna get away with this? And then I read your book, and I thought, if I felt like that, you must have been living under a rock hiding from everyone. Yeah, so funny. You say that a couple things. First of all, I was afraid someone was going to kill me actually. I bet. Yeah, especially the story I opened the book with about what happened to me at Facebook, or I was bullied by a powerful woman that worked at the company. She had sort of lured me over there, and then it was just a terrible experience. She was a true villain when she shut the door and turned into a different person after you were there. It was horrible. That was just the

big. I didn't go into detail about some of the more evil things because I felt it would make me look crazy and I didn't want to give it that much power because that's not really what the book's about. It's just the story of the journey of how I came to write it. I was afraid she was going to hire a hitman to kill me and at the time I had just read coincidental, like not plan but I just read Martha Beck's book, Sociopath Next Door. I don't know. It's a great book but not if you've just outed a sociopath because I would start to like freak out every night about my doors being locked and all this kind of stuff and I told my parents, if I die on just suspicious circumstances, these are the people that need to be investigated.

But you weren't kidding, you were being, you really were that afraid. For that, I probably wouldn't have been that afraid had I not really just read that book, but I was very afraid. And how did you move through that fear to push forward? You know, I work on the control of my mind all the time, and I use it as practice. Like, just keep letting go of that fear. Because what's the alternative? Worrying about is not going to keep her from killing me.

And, you know, you know what else it is? I don't want to give her power over me. That is a big motivating force in my life, is not letting that kind of those people who want to have a negative kind of power over my life is not. I'm a little bit, you know, rebellious in that way. I want to share something that I saw. I can't think of the actress's name, but there was a major actress yesterday that came out. She had someone taunting her privately saying, I have naked pictures of you. And she

decided, I'm not letting this person have power over me. I'm gonna come out with the picture publicly. And then footnote, you cannot have no one will control me. And it sounds like what you're saying. Exactly right. So she had so much power over me at Facebook for some period of time that continuing my fear of that just gives her power. And the whole point of telling that story was not to let it have power over me. I can't tell you how many women have reached out to me though about that story in particular to tell me they have very, very similar story. And it's not just women. It's not just women. And that's the thing. It's both. And with the whole, you know, what I read about in terms like girl

and girl crime in the corporate world and the whole me to movement, for me, I see it's not about gender. It's about power. You're absolutely. And women in power abuse, you know, people abuse power, but men and women do it in different ways. And women in power abuse power, you know, people abuse power, but men and women do it in different ways. And it hurts more. Frankly, I believe when it's a woman because you don't expect it. Yeah. And it's covert and secretive. And the power in it is that the target. National security experts are warning. Our aging power grid is more vulnerable than ever. January marked a third time a power station in North Carolina was damaged by gunfire. Authorities are saying the attack raises a new level of threat.

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at nextweat.com slash monahan. Nextweat.com slash monahan to get the visibility and control you need to weather any storm. Nextweat.com slash monahan. Is not sure what the hell is happening to them, like or why? Right, because it's so, and I write it an article about this on my blog. because it's so, and I write it an article about this on my blog, but you know, it's these constant slights and they're underhanded and they're emotional and they isolate you and it's, you know, if you tell your manager, oh, she won't talk to me or she's leaving me out of meetings, it sounds like you're immature and petty, right? It does. But that's the power of that kind of and petty, right? It does. But that's the power of that kind of girl and girl aggression, is that it's so covert that it makes the victim look crazy and feel very isolated.

So I dealt with the same thing I had, I called, you know, this is my evil villain number one, and this is the woman that fired me from corporate America, and I go to this all the time. When you are a threat, you will always be a target. And that's typically when you see that woman on woman bullying in the workplace. She would come in. I was the only other female in the conference room, as I'm sure you have the same thing at Facebook. It's predominantly men on the executive team. And she would hug and or, you know, give a hi, good morning to everyone and walk right by me, not saying anything. And I'll never forget this. I decided one day she's taking my power. I'm shrinking trying to make her feel better about herself and it's not fixing the freaking problem. So I'm gonna go pull her opposite and try a different approach. I put on my

red dress. I glam myself to the nines and I stood in front of the mirror before I left for work that morning and I said no one will let me be you know be the small version. I will be me and when she work that morning and I said no one will let me, you know, be the small version of me, I will be me. And when she played her little game, I said, excuse me, good morning. You missed me. I'm over here. Now, my juice is the same woman that fires me shortly thereafter. But I was sick of, you know, it was slowly chipping away at my confidence and eroding me. And I was done with it. And and the irony is and I'm so happy I'm sharing this with you right now is that for the first time in corporate America I really started becoming the most confident version of myself so of course I was going to get fired because you write when you

actually are confident you don't fit in corporate America any longer. You know and I get this question are you afraid? This was my truth. This is the raw truth like unfiltered from my brain. And so it doesn't that part doesn't scare me being sued all that stuff. It could totally happen. I'm a little naive too sometimes probably, but I know it can happen. But at the end of the day, I told the truth. And so I just leave anyone can sue you for anything. Yeah, and I'll never forget this. And I want you this to really connect with you. James Altature, I was on his podcast last year when my book was dropping. I love him.

He's brilliant. And he said to me, is there anything I can answer for you Heather when we were done? And I said, yeah, am I gonna get sued? How do I not get sued? I'm really scared. And he's like, leave the cameras on. I want to record this.

But his point was he wanted people to know, no, if you told the truth, did you maliciously attack them trying to take down their company? If they can prove that, then they would have a case. No, that wasn't the case for you same thing, because you weren't singling out just Facebook. You know, you talk about a spectrum of different organizations, people, etc. So as long as you're not falsifying information, you're telling your story, and you're not trying to take a company down financially, they're not going to have a case. So then you're just going to get more press and PR. Wouldn't you love right now actually to have

Facebook come at you? Because it would put such a light on your book, and people would be dying to pick it up. I thought a lot about this actually when I was fired because they offered me a very small severance. It was almost like on purpose very, you know, small for the industry. So I thought about to sign a non-disclosure. Well, once you get, like they send you the severance package and they agree to pay whatever you have to sign whatever's there. And in that contractor, whatever, it says you won't talk about, you and in that contractor whatever it says you won't talk about you know Facebook or whatever right now when I was fired I was already 95% done with the book proposal and when I was fired how do you even

know how to write a book proposal you know the first thing I did I googled how to write a book I had no I did the same thing. You did? Yeah, I mean, how else I didn't know where to start. And I had this burning fire inside of me that, you know, I was like, I need to start now because this is such phoniness of what I'm, and nothing bothers me more than people who have an agenda and care about that more than they care about helping people, but, but sort of, you know, pretend that that's their interest. And there's a lot of people like that. And there's a lot of people like that. And when it's something I care about, like women and I'm feel like they're getting it wrong, it's sort of like this fire under me. So I'll never forget I started with

how to write a book. And then I had read, I did all this research and I read that if you wanted to do a narrative nonfiction, like like the kind that I wanted to write, you didn't have to write the whole book in order to get a book deal to which that really appealed to do a narrative nonfiction, like the kind that I wanted to write, you didn't have to write the whole book in order to get a book deal to which that really appealed to the lazy part of me. Or I was like, oh, I don't write the whole book first, but then of course a book proposal is no easy under game. It's better than writing the book.

Writing the book. Writing it, I bought a book, how would I write a book proposal? And I literally followed all the steps. And people when they saw the proposal were like, who did you hire to do this? Or you know, I was like, no, I just followed the directions. Like, I had my best friend from growing up. She's a graphic designer. I had her create like one little graphic. That was it. The rest I did. And God, I went off on a tangent. I don't even remember the quote. So they asked me to sign this thing, but I had not, I was 95% done.

I spoke to a few attorneys, and the general consensus was that I could maybe get a year or two of salary right out of it, but which was obviously super appealing, because you're a single mother with three kids. Exactly, and I don't get money from anyone else. Like I, you know, that's scary. Yeah, it's really scary,

but if I did that it wouldn't have been able to write the book and I thought no there is no way. And the part of me that was scary I said to them well here's the thing I didn't sign the severance agreement. I never said this I probably should be more prudent about what I shared but I didn't sign the severance agreement they paid me anyway. And I called the attorney. Why would they do that? A book, it's bookkeeping. Like usually people, people don't ever not sign the agreement. So I don't even think there's something in place to check. I don't know, that was my guess. I can tell you right now that they haven't made an amendment. Yeah. So I asked the attorney, I'm like, well, what if, you know, I write this book and then they check and see they paid me,

but I didn't sign the agreement. He's like, I don't think you'll have to worry about it at that point. If your book gets out there to the point that Facebook's checking your status, it means your book's doing pretty well. And I was like, yeah, good point. Okay, let's move on. And so I didn't, and it was a nothing severance. I mean, so even if they sued me and I had to give it back, it was fine. It was fine. So, yeah. So I'm not afraid generally of that stuff because I told the truth and I feel like I can sleep at night. But one other thing that you said that I find so interesting, you said the book's very in your face and you know, you felt yours was and you're kind of in your face. I'm the opposite actually. I'm quite introverted and reserved. So this

is shocking that you wrote this book. Yeah, I guess people are, but at the same time, there's a lot of ironies or, what's the word I can't even think of right now. When my friends read it, they tell me that's so funny because they hear me in their head saying it like it's so true to my voice. Although you did not narrate the audible version. I know, I really do. Why did you do that? I fought for it because they have all these rules about what kind of voices people want to listen to and when I sent the sample because it really is so my voice in this book,

I felt so strongly that it should be actually my voice. All the audio engineers wrote back after hearing the sample like all these complex terms. I don't... She has too much this, basically her voices and too annoying for people to listen to. And they basically... The guy that I work with at Harper's is amazing. And he fought for me to be able to narrate it, but they have these rules. And they said, well, if it does really well, we'll reconsider. So hopefully everyone will go out and buy it. And then I can have a narrative audio. I did... I have both the I'm going to go out and buy it and then I can never narrow the audio. I did, I have both the paperback as well as the audible and the audio version. I really liked that voice and I think it did work. It's a great voice.

It let me how epic it. Yeah, but I agree with you. I'd rather have you telling that story. So knowing that, you know, I'm on the outside looking in, I was never with these tech giants. And so that's obviously everyone listening right now is very impressed that you are with these companies. And now to see that you are no longer a part of these massive brands you're on your own. And as we were talking, you're reinventing yourself

and learning, how do I promote my book? How do I elevate myself so that I'm able to sell more books? How do I land speaking engagements? You're going through this whole rookie phase, just like I'm going through sell more books. How do I land speaking engagements? You're going through this whole rookie phase, just like I'm going through it as a rookie podcaster. How are you finding your way? It's been really fun and difficult. And I heard you say this on a podcast the other day that you've learned more in the past year and a half than you did in the entirety of your

career in the corporate world. And I have to say, you know, that's absolutely true for me. And if I Google, how to write a book, you can imagine. I Google everything like I don't know how to do. And I just figure it out. So the learning curve is big. And fun, also, it's very scary. I feel like I'm figuring it out day by day. I mean, I'm literally sort of creating the power

shoot on my way down. Like, I've jumped off the plane and then things you know, things come up and I figure out, what do I, you know, what do I need to do to fix this? That's the Steve Harvey story he always tells is that you have to be willing to jump and that's when your wings will come out, but not until you actually take that free fall for a little while and on your way down, you don't know if those wings are coming out. You're just hoping like heck that they do. Totally. And also, I didn't finish writing the book until February. And it's only June because we pushed sort of the production schedule and the release schedule out.

So, writing a book, man, that was really, really hard. I had to rewire my entire personality to write a book because I am somebody that's typically not anymore. I've really sort of changed, but my whole life I've been sort of a procrastinator. I lacked a lot of discipline. I'm very creative, so I have this like messy brain and I am very sort of like impulsive and I need instant gratification. These are the exact opposite behaviors and traits that you need to write about. Like literally the opposite because this is the most long-term discipline kind of undertaking delayed gratification. It took me a year and a half and you feel like, I don't know if you felt this way, but sometimes I felt like I was writing into a void, like screaming into a void because you're writing every day and nobody's reading or listening. You have no feedback. I didn't know if I was writing like the great American

novel or like a piece of trash. So it took a lot. Everybody feels that way. Yeah, it's hard. It took a lot of faith and a lot of like mental management and learning new behaviors. So in that respect, that's been amazing. I feel like it's enriched my life in so many other areas. What are your kids think about all of them? They're so excited. So I have a 10-year-old and 8-year-old twins. And sometimes, so they are used to me getting, being all dressed up, right? Go, you know, leaving the house, going into the city, coming home, wearing like, you know, nice clothes. And for the past year and a half, I've been literally wearing pajamas two years now. Almost.

Okay, I don't know that's necessarily good. Yeah, well, for me it is because Lord knows I love my pajamas. So they think I do nothing all day in a way, right? They're at school and they're like, I come to pick them up if I'm wearing jeans. They're like, oh my God, where did you go today? You know, because I'm just normally wearing whatever. So it was very abstract for them at first, right? Oh, I'm writing a book. Well, they don't see anything, but now that everything's happening, I just took them to Barnes and Noble in our town, took pictures of them with it. They, the twins asked that they

could bring the book in for show and tell. That's great. They're really excited and they're and they're proud. Yeah. And your book is in airports as well as we just mentioned I saw it yesterday when I was in the airport. That's got to be a surreal feeling. It is so surreal. So yesterday flying out here on the plane, I got someone sent me a picture of the bookstore in the Minneapolis airport and it was in the front rack next to Michelle Obama's book. This like blew my mind. This might have been a pinnacle for me like the Champaillais moment of this whole process. It felt like I wanted Oscar for books just being

next to her on the show. The number one best-selling book in the US. And it was funny because I had to like know what this was such a holy, I don't know if I'm gonna to curse, but holy crap. We'll believe you out on the holy crap moment that crap moment that, and I turned to the guy in the plane that was sitting next to me. I never talked to people on planes. Like I said, I'm also shy and introverted reserved. I just turned to him and I said, I just have to tell you, my book is next to Michelle Obama. It's like, I go, I'm sorry, I never do this, but I just have to tell you, you're the only person I can talk to right now.

I was like, my book and I showed him the picture and he ended up buying the book on Amazon. I was like, look at me, a hustler. I sold a copy of my book on the planes, the guy next to me. So that's a great, high moment. What I'm really interested in hearing is, what is the low moment when you look back over this whole process, your whole life? What is that moment where you really were at the bottom and struggling the most with your confidence? Well, that is probably that moment is probably not so much on this part of the journey. I don't know if that was what you were supposed to know

no, not for your whole life. Facebook comes pretty close so I don't at Google like I said I had a great reputation. I was a well-respected, conscientious person. I always did well. I was well-liked by people. And at Facebook, it was like I had leprosy and I was contagious. And it was like, actually, that's not a nice and sad, I don't know what the word is. I just felt like I was contagious. People didn't want to come near me because this story had been spun about who I was and I was painted to be this person that I didn't I wasn't at all.

And it was like I didn't know myself anymore. I don't recognize myself. I used to have to go back to and again I don't go into all these crazy stories that happen if Facebook and the book, but they were really bad. I'm going to treat you poorly. Is mostly it was who I call Kimberly in the book and sort of like her cohort. It was actually like the movie Mean Girls where you have this like alpha female and then these like groveling like women around her.

Oh, I'm very familiar. Yeah. I literally had the same situation. Yeah, so it's like that. And I used to go back and have lunch at Google with my friends just to be in a place where I remember who I was like people smiled at me like, Hey Marissa. And you felt better about yourself. And I was, like, people smiled at me, like, hey, Marissa! And you felt better about yourself.

And I was like, oh, right. I am somebody normal, right? So what you're saying is the people and environment you put yourself in and surround yourself with makes all the difference for you and your confidence. So let me, let me go a little further into that story and then I can think about sort of what, how confidence sort of manifested in that scenario. And I have another one that's probably been a better example. But I Facebook, you know, I was pushed to the bottom, the breaking point where my identity was completely unraveled.

And I had to ask myself those questions like, who am I? And what do I want and it was really a moment that was the turning point of my life because when I asked myself those questions I knew the answer was well never be happy and corporate America or never realized my potential I have big dreams and I can't fulfill them in this environment and I still didn't have the guts to quit. Like I told, like we said, I'm a single mom of three. It felt so irresponsible, right?

Like what kind of person leaves a lucrative career? I understand, right. Making all this money at the top companies in the world. Are you crazy? Right. We didn't even, we did not talk about the book. And I have a wonderful supportive family and I dedicate the books to my parents,

but we didn't talk about the book for a year. Like it was not, like we all pretended it didn't exist and I wasn't working on it because scared my parents. So they were like, what the hell is wrong with Marissa? Like what has gotten into her? You're never written anything. It's so hard to get a book, you know, get a book out there. So it was like we didn't talk about it. So being fired was like the ultimate gift because sometimes I question would I have had the confidence to quit? I would think about it every weekend. I'd put spreadsheets together with budget. When can I quit? I just didn't have the nerve. So I think the confidence really came through and I once I was fired and I pushed through and I kept working on the book and I decided I'm not going back to Google. I'm not going to get another job in this world, but actually of another, as we're talking

about, I'm sort of thinking out loud as we're talking, but also I don't talk about my divorce and I have a great relationship with my ex-husband now, but we didn't at the time. And the one really interesting story happened that I think about a lot. I had started seeing this therapist that worked at Google actually, it's like the on-site therapist. Amazing.

Yeah. And I was doing a lot of soul searching about my relationship and how things had gotten to that point. And what, you know, he would ask me, like, what is it about you that, you know, allows certain things or does certain things? And so I had said something to him, we were talking about like codependent personalities and I was like reading a book on it and I said to him, you know, so much of this resonates

with me, like all the things I can tick off on the list. Yep, I do that, yep, I do that. But one thing I can't reconcile and it's that this book and everything on the topic says what really underpins that kind of personality is low self esteem. And I said to the therapist, I said, but and I was working at Google at the time. So it's before any of the Facebook stuff happened, but I said to him, that one, I don't know. I don't feel like I have low self esteem. I quite like myself. I think that, you know, I've always had friends and, you know, I'm doing well at work. I think I'm doing all right. And he said to me something that I'll never forget

and change the way I think about all of this. He said, well, we've talked a lot about... You should know what that means already. That's the best kind of notification. That's the sound of another sale on Shopify. And the moment another business dream becomes a reality. Shopify is a commerce platform revolutionizing millions of businesses worldwide. Whether you're selling books or courses, Shopify is simplifies selling online and in person so you can focus on successfully growing your business. Shopify covers every sales channel from in person PO system to all in one ecommerce platforms platforms and even lets you sell across social media marketplaces like TikTok, Facebook, and Instagram.

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to like you and you're so good at it now that you mistake that as confidence. And he said, what happens? Imagine it as a house of cards and all these cards are made up of the validation and the adoration of everyone in your life and you slowly take away each card. This is exactly what happened to you. Yeah, the Facebook like what he he was predicting what was about to happen You know what I just got the chills you're kind of right freaking out. I'm right unbelievable

I never really put those together that and they happened years apart and he said what happens if you take away all the cards What's what's left? He said because if it's just the cards then that's not self-esteem that's pseudo that's that's not real and I it kind of blew my mind like I think you're I think you're right what is under what is underneath he was right and I was like it sent me I'm a big research nerd and I'm obsessed with psychology and human behavior which you can probably tell from reading the book. But so I became obsessed on like, what is self-esteem, what is confidence? And I was like, there's a big part in the book about this.

So interesting. And actually, I learned all of that on this journey from that one conversation about what is confidence. So for you, from what I'm seeing, what I've read and what I'm hearing, it really took you being broken down to your lowest to finally learn to create confidence. That thank you for summarizing what I just took

forever to say in the most long-winded way. I think you captured it exactly, which is, for me, I've always risen to my best in the worst of circumstances. It's almost like I need, like, when things are bad, that's when I ride. Like that's I'm so good when bad stuff happens. I figure out a way to rise above. When everything is comfortable and safe and happy, I'm probably at my

work. So I think my confidence has come from these periods and I've been through some stuff. I don't talk about it in the book and you know whatever, but some really really hard things That's where I feel like I have built my confidence for that be your second book Perhaps perhaps and maybe I don't know, but yeah, I think when things around me be when I When the story of who I think I am and what I'm supposed

to be starts to unravel, that's always when I've gotten my confidence. I don't know how to explain it otherwise. Yeah, it's kind of sucks that it's got to take these horrible things for me to kind of get it together and have confidence, but it's really in those times. When I think about it, those are like landmark events in my life, after which I'm never the same. So people don't know, anyone can, you know, be in the airport and see your book and look, oh, Google Facebook, and we all put that person on a proverbial pedestal and think they

have it all together. For you right now, navigating the speaking business, becoming an author, author first time author. I mean how are you feeling? It's super excited and grateful and super scared. I put my whole life savings on the line for all of this. That's so hard. I am so right there with you. Yeah and it's pretty much out. So please buy a book because my kids need food. Really why should people buy your book? So I wrote this book because this conversation about women at work and the gender gap has been really dominated by a handful of very elite and powerful women. And naturally they're going to see the issues through a similar perspective. But it's been limited because so many working women don't hear their voices,

their challenges, and concerns reflected in that conversation. So I really wrote the book to represent those voices and to tell a totally different side of this story, which I did. But also because there's so much BS in the corporate world because of its nature, it's like this big power structure. People can't be honest. It like crushes truth and it punishes truth. Well, they're all zero-sum games for power. They're zero-sum competitions for power. And no matter whether you're Google or, you know, Walmart or whatever, corporate organization, they're all structured as these

zero-some competitions and its behavior is like putting your needs ahead of other people. That is a behavior that wins in that environment. Putting other people's needs first is always going gonna be a disadvantage in the corporate world because you get crushed. It's the nature of the game. And that's another reason I wrote this book is because I didn't know what game I was playing in that world. I was kind of like Pauliant, like Naive, Pauliana going about it like, oh everybody really

is working hard to like make a difference in the business and make an impact and we're all team players and then over time I sort of really like wait that is not what this is at all and I was kind of naive and I write it in the book and it's true it's like I really didn't care what game it was I just would love for people to be honest about what it is and that's a novel idea. Yeah, and one thing that really sort of like the essence of Lena and books of that nature, one of the things that really irked me was we kept, it sort of posits the idea that women don't want to be leaders, and I hate that language because that's not what it is. It's women to the women, don't aspire to be corporate executives

to the same degree as men. So the stack quote in that book is 18% of women aspire to be a corporate executive or 36% of men. And saying that that means women don't want to be leader, that's not true because corporate executive is not synonymous with leader. Leader is somebody who paints a vision for the future that's better and like I used the example Martin Luther King, right? He was a lead. Nobody's an argue. He

wasn't one of the best leaders of the 20th century. People didn't work for him. They didn't, you know, they didn't follow him because the power structure required it or their livelihood was at stake, which is in fact it was the opposite. It was the opposite. He led with influence. So it bothers me that we paint that story as women don't have leadership ambition. No, they don't have corporate executive ambition to the same degree as men. But sometimes they do. I certainly did. I wanted to be the CEO. There was, I did not mince words about it. And there's more power to you. The whole message of the book is be true to you. And so we've over indexed our time

and attention. So if only 18% of women aspire, right? I'm not saying that 18% don't have challenges or problems and that they shouldn't go for what they want. My daughter is going to be a CEO of a huge, huge conglomerate organization. That is her nature. Like more power to her. I joke with her. I'm gonna, one day get a tattoo, WWSD, what would Shelby do? Because I get inspired. She is a boss. But I love that about her. I was not like that as a child and I sort of took issue with this idea that these more nurturing, feminine, not feminine, but the gender stereotype of a woman, that these were giving women the opposite message now,

that those behaviors are wrong, right? That we need to defy those boundaries and act outside of that. But that's still a prescription for women on how to behave. That's your whole premise is that we don't need to be told who to be, whether someone's saying to be like a man or to be like a woman or to be this, but to just be you, like your daughter, like just own your truth.

Just own it. And the corporate world is not a place where people can be themselves and lean into, no pun intended, their natural strengths and abilities because the rules of that game don't change whether you're a Google or a GE or whatever. There's a certain law of like human dynamics and power dynamics. Once you get to a certain amount of people that, even no matter how progressive of a company, you can't escape those sort of laws of human behavior. And I went off in a total tangent here, but I think, it's your point.

Lots of women want to be CEO. I totally support that, but lots of women don't. And there's no voice to represent them, because we've been told that the reason they don't want to be a corporate executive is because they're oppressed by culture and stereotypes. Well, now they have one. And now they have one, and I, a lot of so many women

have reached out to me to say thank you, because I think another big reason I wrote this book was to, here's the feedback I get, and this another big reason I wrote this book was to, here's the feedback I get and this is the reason I wrote it. People reach out to me to say, you put into words all these thoughts and feelings I've had in the corporate world, but I didn't know how, A, how to express them and B that other women felt the same. And you made me feel heard and understood.

And that is my number one goal. Is the making women feel heard and understood because I feel like we've been very dismissive of what lots of women want a need and instead of blaming the gender gap on stereotypes, you know, dismissing sort of women's needs as a product of culture, my whole point in the book is we should listen to them and embrace their needs. And if men and women want a need different things at work, that is okay. We should embrace that, listen to women,

and figure out what is it about the corporate structure that needs to change to better meet their needs instead of focusing on the way as women need to change to better meet the needs of the corporate structure. It's just common sense. So I think, you know, making a lot of women like me that felt so invisible and dismissed in that world, feel heard and understood is my, my ultimate goal. Well, congratulations.

You did a great job. You guys need to pick up lean out by Marissa or you can get it everywhere, not just the airport. Yeah. Where can they find the book? It's on Amazon. It's in Barnes & Noble, some airports, and you can go to my site merissaor.com also for the links. And how about following you on social media?

So on Twitter, I am Merissa Beth Orr, BethBETH, my middle name, and on, you have to forgive me. So I'm like just your point about building the, you know, parachute on the way down. And this is also new to me. Instagram also, a Marissa Beth or Twitter Marissa Beth or on Medium. I have a bunch of articles, including the prologues. If you want to read the story about what happens to me at Facebook, you can see that at medium, which is medium.com slash at Marissa or. So if you just search for Marissa or Medium, it should show up. All right. I'm going to check it out too.com slash at Marissa or so if you just search for Marissa or medium

it should show up. Alright I'm gonna check it out too thank you Marissa I appreciate it. Thanks so much for having me this is fun. Alright hang with me we'll be right back. So I just realized that I forgot to tell you, I can't believe this has all been the same week. It feels like the longest week of my life, but a few days ago, I'm back in New York right now, and I was in New York on Thursday of this past week to join my good friend Scott for his book party launch for Standing O Encore, which is an amazing book. You get to check it out on Amazon. And it's all about gratitude. It's all for charity. I wrote, write the four word, Jesse Itzler, wrote the cover quote. I call it In Good Company, but um, definitely check it out standing oh, encore, this is not an ad by the way.

And so I came to New York for his event. And it was the craziest night. It was so funny. So he kicked off the event. He was speaking and then he handed the microphone over to me. And I was speaking and while I was speaking, someone passed out. She's okay, the woman is okay. But I didn't really while I was speaking, someone passed out. She's okay, the woman is okay.

But I didn't really know what was going on because when you're speaking, you know, you're not really in tune with everything, I just heard a lot of commotion because what happened is the woman fell into someone else and that person fell into someone and that person felt. It was like a domino effect. So there was a lot of broken glass and it was just insane. And then a puppy got caught in a door and the puppy was crying. And oh gosh, there was a lot of chaos ensuing. And when that all happened, I made a joke.

I said, oh my gosh, this is perfect because everyone says at a TED talk, anything and everything can go wrong and to be prepared for it. So I want to thank everyone who's, you know, falling on the ground and getting the dog, you know, for setting this up for me so that I I won't get rattled. And I made a joke, whatever everyone was laughing, it went really well. But what's so crazy is I wasn't nervous at my friend's book launch party versus when I was at TED and I was literally freaking out. I can't tell you how scared I was. And right when it was time for me to go on the the clicker broke and the slides weren't gonna work and everyone started freaking out.

And I just turned around and I said listen to me right now to everybody that was backstage. I said, done is better than perfect. And we are going out there and we'll just make it work. Just make do with what you have. And I really have lived my life like that since I left corporate America and since I got fired. You know, I didn't know if my book was gonna be good. I didn't know it was gonna trump trump for number one in business biography on Amazon.

Yeah, it did. But I didn't know any of that stuff. And I didn't know that I'd end up being a professional speaker. I didn't know, I'd give a TED talk. I didn't know I'd own the TED talk. Yeah, I thought it stated. I can't, I didn't know any of this stuff.

You know, and it's just about taking the chance and going for it has really been the answer for me. And it's funny because I was speaking to a woman at the book launch party and she was telling me how she wanted to launch her own podcast and I said, well, why what are you waiting for? Like, well, I'm so curious. Why haven't you done it? And there was no real reason. Anyway, so I had that conversation with her and I got a note from her today. She went ahead and bought a computer and she's up and running and launching her podcast.

This speaks some super proud of her. But sometimes we just get in our own head and decide, oh, this will never work or there's too many podcasts or there's, you know, I'd never be a good TED Talk speaker. Well, I got great advice that night at the Book Lunch Party and I was talking about how some people who are amazing speakers like the best in the world, when they do a TED Talk, it doesn't go viral or doesn't do that well and Someone told me that's because they don't really show up as their self if you it's hard because

Ted strict with you can't leave the circle and it's about the idea and it's not like a normal talk and you have a time limit And there's a timer running that you have to hit that mark I chose not to look at the timer just FYI so I'm super interested to see how long my talk actually was because I was too stressed out. I couldn't add one more layer of problems in my mind so I just ignored it. I don't know if that's the right move for everybody, but it worked for me.

So, you know, you look at all these restrictions and it's just, I don't know, it can be tough. It definitely got in my head. But, you know, it's about taking the risk and going for it, you know, that Sarah Blakely put this note in my bag to give me a bunch of sphinx products when I interviewed her and there was a note from her and it just said the only risk that you'll ever take is not taking one.

And it's so true, you just have to go for it. If I had failed, you know what, I still would have been proud of myself for getting up there. And I would have not forgiven myself if I had backed out. You know, that was kind of what I was thinking. So anyhow, so I had, I also have an accountability partner program on my website. That's free. You can check it out. Heathermontahan.com. And I refer people to it when they're not pushing themselves, you know, because then you get an email from me each day, really kind of, you know, trying to annoy you

to make sure that you fall through on your dreams and go after your goals. And so I had suggested to a woman that she should sign up for because she wasn't pushing herself. So it was so cute. She sent me a note back and said, thank you so much. I did it.

However, I don't want to embarrass you, but the bounce back right after I signed up has a typo in it sent me a note back and said thank you so much. I did it. However, I don't want to embarrass you, but the bounce back right after I signed up has a typo in it and I hope I'm not offending you. Oh my gosh, I was so appreciative. And, you know, I said to her, listen, done is better than perfect in my book. And I'm not an editor and I so appreciate

that you took the time to tell me. That's not embarrassing. You don't have to feel bad. I'm grateful, you know. So when we extend a hand to someone else and offer help to them, it's 99.99% of the time going to be welcomed and appreciated, and 100% of the time will be for me. So I appreciate when people help me with things that I haven't been able to fix yet for myself.

So I think it's great to lend a hand to somebody else and help people improve when you can and cheer them on when you can. And I have to tell you, oh my gosh, I had people that flew in for my TED Talk and it just meant the world to me to see those people they are cheering me on. And one of my friends that came in said that she felt like, you know what, I need to listen to my inner voice. I really have the sense that I should go to this TED Talk and she jumped on a plane and came and I was so happy to see her, so happy to have her support.

You know, you just never know. People assumed I would just be so confident and it would be easy and it wasn't. So having people that love me, that were cheering me on, meant the world. So if there's someone in your life that you think, oh, that person's got it, you know what? Why don't you give them a hand? Why don't you cheer them on and why don't you let them know that you're supporting them

because it really makes such a difference. And you never know what's going on in someone else's life. That is for sure. So, so excited for everyone to see this. I want to, by the way, I'm dying to see my own talk. It's so annoying that we have to wait for Ted to upload this thing, but I pray it's going to do well. I pray that you're gonna love it. I can't wait to see it. On to the next one. So until next week, who knows what's gonna happen this week? I mean,

I don't know how we top this past week, but there's always a chance we can. So let's just keep going. Thanks so much for being here with me. Thanks for hanging with me on the podcast. It means the world to me. I appreciate your support so, so, so much. And I hope that this is a kick off for a great week for you too. Thank you. This episode is brought to you by the YAP Media Podcast Network. I'm Holla Taha, CEO of the award-winning digital media empire YAP Media, and host of

YAP Young & Profiting Podcast, a number one entrepreneurship and self-improvement podcast where you can listen, learn, and profit. On Young & Profiting Podcast, I interview the brightest minds in the world, and I turn their wisdom into actionable advice that you can use in your daily life. Each week we dive into a new topic like the art of side hustles, how to level up your influence and persuasion and goal setting. I interview A-list guests on Young & Profiting. I've got the best guests.

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