Creatives Grab Coffee - #113 Building a Values-Driven Production Company (ft. Tiny Studios)

Episode Date: April 23, 2026

Welcome back to another episode of Creatives Grab Coffee! In this episode, we are joined by Ed Rowe and Celia Hodgson from Tiny Studios. Tiny Studios is a B Corp certified production company based in London. They work across various sectors to produce impactful web and social content that truly shifts the needle. Today, we dive into their journey from freelance life to agency ownership, the importance of building a healthy on-set culture, and what it's like to navigate an agency acquisition while staying true to your core values. Chapters 00:00 Introduction to Tiny Studios 07:00 The Journey from Freelancer to Company 13:56 Building a Team and Company Structure 19:57 Navigating Client Expectations and Budgeting 29:02 Lessons Learned and Future Aspirations 29:48 Building Through Word of Mouth 34:25 Navigating Gender in the Industry 37:47 Creating Inclusive Spaces for Filmmakers 41:06 Challenging the Burnout Mentality 49:29 Understanding Client Value Propositions 53:42 The Journey of Acquisition and Integration 01:04:37 Building a Pipeline for Success 01:06:55 Navigating the Acquisition Process 01:09:59 The Value of B Corp Certification 01:16:00 Preparing for B Corp: A Guide for Businesses 01:21:04 The Importance of Documentation and Processes 01:25:01 Final Thoughts and Future Directions 01:30:02 Outro🎧 Hosts:Dario Nouri & Kyrill Lazarov — Lapse Productions, Torontohttps://www.lapseproductions.com🎙️ About Creatives Grab Coffee:Creatives Grab Coffee explores the business of video production, featuring candid conversations with studio owners and filmmakers around the world on scaling, creativity, and industry evolution.👇 Follow & Subscribe:Website – https://creativesgrabcoffee.comInstagram – https://instagram.com/creativesgrabcoffeeLinkedIn – https://linkedin.com/company/lapseproductions#CreativesGrabCoffee #videographyhacks #videography #videographer #videoproduction #businesspodcast #videoproductionpodcast #lapseproductions #videomarketing #videoproductioncompany #videoproductionservices

Welcome back to another episode of Creatives Grab Coffee. Today we're back in London with Ed and Celia from Tiny Studios. Welcome, guys. Hello. How's it going? Thanks for having us. No problem. It's been a minute since we've had more than one guest on the show.

So I'll leave it to one of you guys to decide who, but give us a little bit of a background into who you guys are and who Tiny Studios is. I'll go for this. Yeah, I feel like that's always the way when we're doing me. calls with clients. It always pulls on me. So I'll try and remember what I normally say. So we're tiny studios. We are a B-Corp production company based in London. We work with a wide range of brands across a multitude of sectors, but we really try and work with good people and brands to make impactful content. What is impactful content? I mean, obviously we're all in the world

of video production, so we probably have a better idea. But I think, well, that actually looks like for us is social content, web content, ideally stuff that really shifts the needle. And then a lot of what keeps Ed and I very busy and, like, energized is actually that the impactful content also in terms of how it is making an impact or a positive impact on the planet and the people in our industry as well, which I'm sure we will get into. But I didn't even say who I am. I'm Celia. I'm the founder of Tiny Studios. And I started it nearly five years ago. Our birthday is in a month. Congrats.

Almost birthday. Yeah. Yeah. Ed, do you want to intro yourself? Yeah. So I'm Ed, as you know. I'm the ops director at Tiny and also creative producer.

So I'm the logistics behind the organization. Backbone, basically. Is that what you say? Yeah. The crucial cog. Yeah. So is it like,

So is it kind of like both of you, like, almost running tiny studios together, or is it, like, what's the dynamic? Yeah, so I found a tiny five years ago, but then four years ago, Ed came on board as a producer, and then I think about three years ago, Ed, but correct me, if I'm wrong, you sort of came on board. And maybe it's two years now. I don't even know. It feels like a good amount of time that Ed then came on board with, as a director as well, and kind of help with the running of it. So now day to day, we both run the show. I mean, to be honest, actually, Ed runs a lot of it, and I would say I will need it.

It's kind of, that's how we slightly like split our time and our expertise. And it works very smoothly. What were you guys doing before Tiny Studios? Ed, you go first. I feel like you had an interesting time. So when I finished uni, I went straight into TV, started in the factual world, and then moved into scripted.

And I mean, it was scripted was the reason why I left TV. It was just, it wasn't what I was quite looking for. And the reason why I then came to Tiny, I was looking for a company which had a really great culture. And then that's why I came on to Tiny into the production round, but I was doing production previously in TV as well. And then to be honest, I hadn't done really anything else. So I, before Tiny started five years ago, I was kind of already running it for four years as a freelancer.

When I left school, basically, I went straight into working as a freelance videographer. I didn't go to uni and just started building up relationships with clients that way. I mean, obviously, day to day, it wasn't just as easy as that. I feel like it's easy to say that now, but obviously at the time, it's a lot of just doing other things as well as many creatives listening would probably attest to as well. And yeah, it was just a lot of like, I think I acknowledge that the industry was filled with a lot of people who were very technically talented. But actually, you wouldn't think necessarily that also just being like a really nice normal down to a person who will chat with clients about other things. And just be a really great ear on the other end of the phone if they've got any questions. Also is really valuable.

So I think that was probably something that like initially helped me as a freelancer build. yeah build connections with clients and then it got to the point where we had enough work that it made sense to incorporate as a company and build out a team as well because I was really struggling to do it all of my own. You basically answered my next question which was what was that moment that made you feel like it was time to transition from hey it's just me Celia running video production as a freelancer to I need to start a production company with a team of people. You kind of answered that, but was there any specific moments? Because it's one thing to get a lot of leads and work coming in, but that doesn't always necessarily translate to, I need to start a company from this. So what was that step?

I think I was on a personal note finding I was being limited by working solo. Like I'm someone who loves collaboration. I love bouncing off people. I was getting to a point where I would make work for my clients and they would be very complimentary and then we would kind of move on to the next and there wasn't any of that sense of like learning, growing and kind of building. Obviously that in itself is not a reason to start a company. You could go join a team like, but I think I was also then finding that clients were asking for very specific things. So maybe we were working on a project together and they were like, oh, can we have

some drone? I'd be like, yeah, no problem. And then I'd find someone who could do it or, oh, can we have some animation, sure, again, would just say yes and then find the people. So I was almost noticing myself started to project manage. And then that became really, really stressful of actually like gosh, this is a lot to be managing day-to-day solo. And to be honest, that first moment that I employed someone, it was in lockdown, they were an editor and they worked remotely. So they lived in Cornwall, which is like the other side of the UK. And I didn't. really look at the numbers. You'll start to see a pattern as to why it was crucial with someone like Ed joined the business. But very much at that time I was led on gut. I was just

like, I can't do this alone. There's too much to do. Let's hire someone. And I think that that was a similar time that I decided to change from the original name of Celia Films, rebrand and kind of strategize around becoming a company called Tiny because I think seeing someone work, I wanted to create a space that actually other creatives wanted to work and kind of could see themselves growing under, which Tiny has done, which has been amazing. So I think it was just, yeah, that need for support and collaboration. But I will say it definitely wasn't like, it took then a long time for that probably to make personal financial sense.

So you do have to slightly just like invest in other people and have faith that like the sum of many parts will down the line be better than doing it alone. So then you start the company after freelancing for a bit because you're growing. Like how, what's, what's been the journey for you since starting tiny to today? Well, yeah, many things. I think that's the same, yeah, learning by doing, growing, trying to bring in people around me who are better than me at what they do has been a real win. So the first few hires we had were editing.

and other creatives. And then obviously Ed came on kind of eight months down the line as a producer. And I think just basically trying to like put trust in other people and let them own those bits. I'm not saying I'm amazing at it. I think definitely with my first editors, I was probably super micromanagey as I like would find it easier to take the timeline from them and re-edit it than tell them how I wanted it. I can thankfully say I've learned now not to do that. but I think that's definitely been a real learning for me is actually just then also the management of people

that's not something obviously because I'd never worked anywhere before I hadn't had any experience in that so that's been something that's just taking a bit of time or you know when ed joined we didn't have any formal processes or documents or you know if people said or what happens if I need to request um you know sick time like time off for sickness and I was a bit like great question and I would always do a kind of like, I'm learning while you are, like, let me go and work that out. And I think that naivety is semi-cute for like five months and then actually is really hard for teens to be in. And I think that's why obviously then Ed came in and kind of helped formalize a lot of those processes. And as you said earlier, like the backbone of the company started to form.

But yeah, in terms of learnings over the years and what that journey's been like, it's just been pretty wild. And it is worth saying, which I didn't mention at the beginning, now five, months ago we were acquired in September by a group so that's also now also been this process of well lots more learnings and everything there and that sale process as well was obviously very interesting i want to get into that in a little bit but yeah we'll just uh throw it over to ed for a second because he's been a little quiet uh okay so ed you coming in from background where you have been on bigger productions scripted tv and whatnot now you're joining in a company that's essentially just started. What was that like, what was that process like for you

where you kind of come into a space where it's been single business owner that probably is doing 50 things and doesn't have like a structure in place? It was a, yeah, it was an interesting one because obviously there's TV sets. Everything's so structured and you do feel a bit like a cog in the work. You don't necessarily see your direct impact because they're so big. You do have a role that you don't see that effect. And the final result, so coming into a production company where you see the responsibility spread between everyone was really refreshing because you actually saw the immediate impact of what you were doing on a day to day. I think also on the team level, again being on set

and there were 150 people on set coming in and out of the door some days you'd walk on set and you're like, who are you? And actually going to a company where at the time there were four of us I was number four that had been a few of his employee

before that senior mentioned freelancer in Cornwall but yeah there was four of us in the office three of us most of the time and then one was working remotely so it was a place where what I'd seen in TV where I thought weren't perfect, that's pretty harsh.

Things that I would change if I was to it. And I was like, hey, why don't we actually try and build that into here? It's completely different side of the industry, but there are definitely really valuable learnings. So it was very different, but it allowed, I feel like because the team was so small, Tiny was very young at the time. It allowed time for thought and growth. I think now that Tiny's grown and we're five years down the line, I definitely finding that time to think about how you look at those processes

takes it's difficult to find that time, whereas at the beginning it was kind of, it was at the forefront of everything. And I mean, it is still at the forefront of everything. I don't want to say that it's not. Where would you, where would you, like when you first came on, I mean, obviously, like, you're coming from a structured, from place where everything is structured to a place or things might not be structured. Like, where do you, like, it seems like you might have had a lot of roads you could have taken. Like, where did you start first?

Like, how did you kind of analyze and say, look, okay, let's focus on this first. Let's get this in place and then we'll move on to the next thing. Like, what was that process like for you? Like, where did you decide where to start in first? I think Cid Ome is what I was probably going to say. but when I joined, I was looking at the quotes and I was like, there's no pre-production time quoted for. So that was my starting place, really.

I was like, we probably should start quoting for our pre-production time because otherwise I'm only going to be benevolable for being on set. So that was very much the start of it. And actually, I think quite quickly after that, I drew a roadmap of what, I mean, what production looks like at us,

specifically what production looks like for Tiny. And I would show that to every new employee when they came through the door. So they knew the steps. I still show it to employees when they joined now, even though it's five years old. But it does give the rough structure. And it doesn't touch on just production.

It's also kind of, I describe it as kind of the fifth phase of tiny, which is kind of once production finishes, our clients are still our clients. How can we like keep them, keep them in touch with them, make sure that they've got everything they need in that fifth stage. So that was kind of the development of it. And then really putting all those processes down on paper was the development. So, yeah, long story short, it started with simply production day to day,

making sure that we were accounting for our pre-production and all our time that we were spending on projects. But I guess Celia, you were doing, you were doing the pre-production initially, but your main role was shooting and directing. and the rest of the team's role. Again, we're shooting, directing, editing, so pre-production was not considered. Yeah.

And I think also you came in and I remember you looked at, just in terms of where your mind already was, it's like you looked at our employment contracts before you signed it yourself. And before he even signed it, he did the work basically correcting all our contracts by being like, this doesn't make sense, this doesn't work. And then that was then something that we actually bought someone on for HR

and then he worked closely with them. but also I think it's a worth note like if anyone was listening who's thinking I really want to become that quite integral part in a small company like within six months of being a tiny I remember I had my first review with Ed like personal sort of you know employee manager review and he came with basically a company strategy so like everything he wanted to talk about was actually company focus not himself which you know of course is that. like amazing because then actually I suddenly could see okay he really cares about the long-term growth of his company. I then had to encourage him to also think about what he might personally

want to like do over the next few years, not just think for the company. But I think, yeah, it was just very clear from the start that actually like his brain, your brain, was going towards the kind of structural back end and like, yeah, making sure it could just run really smoothly. Do you have anything else you want to add that before we move on to the? I don't think so. I mean, I think, yeah, I mean, going back to the kind of production, I think, and on top of Cedars mentioned there, with very much when you're freelance, freelancers for some people, I struggled with it because it was in an in-and-out job.

You were working with new people the whole time, which it works for people I'm aware, and then TV works for people. For me, I was kind of, I would finish a job and go straight onto the next because I didn't want to be sitting idols. So that's quite, I was looking for something with a bit more structure. And I think those learnings from TV is that ultimately is what I brought to Tiny at the beginning. One funny thing you guys mentioned was that you noticed immediately that there was no pricing in place for pre-production.

I remember that was one of the first tricky things to start charging for because, you know, when it comes to production days, it's even today, even today, even today. It's never, it's never exact because every project, it's different amount of pre-production needs to go into it, right? And client budgets are, they're getting tightened and tightened like crazy. So it's getting harder to kind of spread the line items a little bit. But like, for example, like production days are very easy to, are much easier to charge for. It's like, okay, two days, three-person crew, this is what it's going to cost. Pre-production is like, all right. Post is easier as well. But pre-production is when,

one of those aspects, okay, how much work is going to go into this? Is this something that we're going to have to take on or is a lot of the details already determined from the client? What kind of project is it? You know, if it's an event, it's a little bit more straightforward because, you know, you have to go capture it, do some highlights and stuff like that. So it's a little bit easier. But then if it's a more creative project, who knows how long that process could take too, right? So yeah, that's a hard one to quote for. I think it's become really useful in the last, probably the last year is really laying out roles and responsibilities in pre-production because beforehand we kind of would say, oh, it's going to take three days,

but we wouldn't necessarily lay out what that three days entailed. Whereas now if a brand knows that we are going to take the lead on finding a location house, finding with the talent, sorting schedule, sorting shot list, that's fine. But if there's an unspoken conversation on And actually their budget's small, so they need to use their team for talent. It's just making sure those conversations are laid out really clearly, even putting the contract sometimes, depending on kind of the detail on it. But just made sure that's from the get-go. It's really clear because then that helps.

Because obviously why is one day it's a three-day project, three-day pre-production, and the next time it's a eight-day pre-production. and what is, yeah, so it's just making clear for them. Yeah, I also think. Like managing expectations, yeah. Exactly. Yeah, 100%. And actually we acknowledge that the industry at the moment, as you mentioned,

is like budgets are being squashed, left, right and centre. And we want to be as flexible to stay alive in that industry. But we also have to protect the people who work on the projects, whether that's our in-house team or our freelancers. So I think the more that we can actually like explain why those days are there and explain how if they need to reduce the budget by X, we can potentially do that. But these are going to be the outcomes. And as Ed says, potentially the things they have to manage, it kind of just, yeah, helps make sure that then they're not confused down the line why maybe the quality is not what they hope for because actually they've halved the budget. It's just trying to explain that.

I feel like also Ed you have quite a good line on like if you're looking to capture something that might be one level of cost and in terms of brief fraction but if you're looking to like create something and that's those more like brand films the where they might need to like basically have you got an event capture or actually are you trying to make something new and slightly differentiating the two can help I think our partners understand the different like brackets Yeah. That's a good way to separate it in terms of how to go about it with pre-production, where it's like, is it a capture of like, for example, corporate interviews, B-roll and stuff like that at an office, that's a capture or an event, that's a capture or creation from scratch.

Yeah, completely different story, different mindset entirely. So that's a good differentiation that you've come up with. Yeah, and they kind of sit in different. budget brackets entirely. Yeah. It's a mindset shift too, right? And it's easier to talk to clients in that regard and to kind of frame it for them. Because that's the other thing.

It's always about educating the client and framing it in ways that they will understand. And everyone has that different way of doing it. So it's interesting to hear other people's ways. Yeah. I mean, I think that's something with being a B-Corp as well, we do sometimes turn down projects because it isn't a right fit. and Ed, I'm sure, can go into a bit more detail on that in a bit. But it does mean we also will turn down projects.

You know, we've tried to feel a bit more confident turning down projects to educate clients on what budgets should be. It's obviously tough. There is always a team who's going to do it for less. And I have had conversations because I'm quite close with a lot of the production industry in London. I'll sort of have conversations being like, please, like we've got to stick together.

If you say yes to that budget, which we both know is too low, Like no one's going to learn from that. But I think that's something that we're not always getting it right on. But I'm quite keen, like I think both Ed and I are quite keen to be vocal about actually what things should cost. And as you say, educate them. So actually it's not just a thing of like, oh, tiny are quite expensive. It's more like, oh no, tiny value, sustainability craft, paying humans correctly, all these things, which mean that they're probably not going to be your budget option.

in the same way that like if you're going to, I was actually going to make a sort of UK supermarket reference for that might be a bit niche. But you know what I mean? It's like there's always a budget provider. Give it a go. We have listeners in the UK. Some people might know.

Let's hear it. You know, actually I love Little, so I don't want to sort of shit on Little. But I was going to say, if you're going to go to like your Little versus your waitros, you kind of, you know where you're going to buy the thing and you know what you're going to get on both sides. So, yeah, I don't know. Let's say we're a Tesco. Yeah, I was going to say, I don't know we're waitrose. Or the Tesco Express.

Tesco Express versus Sainsbury, right? Yeah, true, because Tesco Express is open all the time, whereas the big Tesco is always closed. We wouldn't be there. We're here for you whenever you need. So you guys basically, oh, sorry, go ahead. Sorry, I was just going on the back of CDA kind of. I think the expectations is really important.

And I sometimes have gotten into the habit where I share a, share a cost. a quote with a client and they're like, I don't think it should take that long and I'm like, okay, I'll reduce that and say, just kind of reduce it rather than actually adding a discount and saying, no, it will take that time. But like, I will help you out here rather than trying to reduce it and then giving them

responsibilities because sometimes giving responsibilities to brands, things get lost. So I think, yeah, it's always about the setting expectations. That has just highlighted one of my biggest pet peeves is when people tell us how long things should take to do. But I won't, this doesn't need to be a rant podcast. In terms of like how long your post is going to take or in terms of like your, the shooting, Dario, for example. No, no, it'll be the editing.

It'll be like, oh, that's not going to take two days. That's not going to take two days to edit. And I'm like, but are you an editor? Like, we don't pluck these numbers. of nowhere. It's also, and that's the other thing is it's so meticulous. I mean, we're almost at the point where we have like data, like calculations that literally will be like, if you're getting a this long asset, we'll sort of times our time by the length of the asset and like, it's all very meticulously calculated. And I will say most of our partners trust us completely. But yeah,

we definitely do get the occasional message. We'll just be like, is it because you put like, for example like a two minute promo video you put two days of editing is that what you put in the in the in the invoice yeah we do do we do we do edit yeah we do calculate it all by time so they will know we're saying five days or eight days or two days why don't you guys just put like a total price doesn't that because I think then they they they understand it less then they're just like well what's that based on like I don't know yeah I mean we haven't

we haven't had that issue though on our end like we just placed the the total amount what they're getting, the amount of time it would take to put it together. We don't put that in there. And we haven't had really any pushback from clients on that front before. Interesting. I guess on the on the back of that, we are, there are some projects now, especially when we're working with the agency group that we're part of, that we do do that. We very much bulk costs. This is what's included within it. It's not a day breakdown. Obviously for the shoot days, it says two days, three days, whatever it may be. with post-production, it just has the assets.

So it's something that we spoke about it ages ago, see. And I think when we were really young, it didn't make sense because I'm going to see where the budgets lay. But yeah, maybe it is a conversation to explore and develop. The yearly review conversation. Yeah. By yearly review. One to add the to do's.

To be fair, I feel like these clients I'm talking about are the same ones that will say, can we remove director of photography and you're like well then okay what there will be there will be no film so i think it you'll have everything but the camera yeah i'll be like cool are you gonna shoot or i once had a why do we need kit hire question yeah there's no way yeah and i was like do you want the crew to be there with no kit that is that is that is funny i'm curious quite an easy one to knock out. I'm a little bit curious because we got a little bit of backstay on you guys.

But Celia, how did you take the company from being a freelancer? Then you start tiny studios. But then all of a sudden, like, within a year, you're hiring employees and whatnot. Like, how did you make that big transition? Or were you already pretty well established before starting tiny studios? Because you mentioned you had Celia films before that, right? Yeah. It was actually a gradual process in that I, so in 2016, start as a freelancer and then it was in

2021 that Tiny started. But all throughout that five years, I was working as a freelancer, building, nurturing those clients. And a lot of those, not a lot, but quite a few of those clients have worked with us and still continue to with Tiny. So it's very much like when, technically when I incorporated Tiny, I literally moved over all of the bank account and everything from Celia Films to Tiny. So it was like it started in quite a good place. So that moment of being a new company, nothing changed. You know, I just continued the communication with the clients, the projects that we already had planned to carried on.

And then we just rolled off of that. The biggest thing I think was the investment of around five grand at the time into the rebrand and the website and kind of coming up with the new name. but that was such a good spend of money to actually just create that sense of like we are now something different a bit bigger and I think it probably changed as well the way that I approached working for my own company

and then also could like instill those values and kind of behaviours as well within the team but yeah it was definitely a slow gradual process and then I think to be honest it also came on that thing of like what I said earlier I didn't check like I wasn't looking at the finances. I wasn't strategizing a five-year plan. I wasn't looking and saying, I've got this cash reserve to learn.

Let me now make this investment into a new employee or whatever. I literally went off of complete whim. I mean, we didn't start sorting out our cash flow until about three years ago. I would say, Ed, I feel like it was like you were at the company for a couple of years before we actually started sorting out our cash flow. So like it was just that we would, money would come in. We would like invest it in something. We'd spend it.

And then, you know, the industry went through a bit of a downturn in the UK. And that suddenly became very apparent. It was not going to be a sustainable way of working. And now we've got it all obviously much better structured. But I wouldn't, it's so hard because I get a lot of freelance creatives asking me now about should I start a production, you know, should I start a production company, when do you know is the right time. And I would say like I wouldn't advise all of the things that I did, which was basically like blind hope. But then equally, if you look at it. it as like data and numbers and all that stuff, will you ever think that you're in a position

to do it? Because at some point you are going to have to make a leap. I mean, it is also where saying, and I do always try and say this to people that at the time it was lockdown. It was COVID and I actually was back living age 21 with my parents at home. So I think people's circumstances are also always a massive thing. And I had very few outgoing costs. You know, I was being fed and I had a roof over my head. So that probably risk appetite or feeling of what a risk is to do to start like company and employ my first team member, I'm sure felt much more doable because I had that sort of safety net of being like, if it doesn't work out, I still have a home and people who can feed me. So, yeah. When you were growing the company those first four or five years, like you said it was

gradual. Were you doing like a lot of like outreach to clients or was it all like inbound elites in word of mouth? Word of mouth, yeah. I think word of mouth, trying to just do great work, be nice to the people we worked with and then they would pass that on. I would, I definitely, I had to pitch for some work. I got one big contract, so we did a lot of work with schools and still do, you know, no longer half of our work, but probably, I don't know, 30% of our work is still probably

in education, maybe less these days. Yeah, I mean, it was, yeah. I was going to say same amount of like number of work, but the site, the quantity of work, if that makes sense. We're still getting the same like briefs, number of briefs from schools and stuff, but percentage is rice compared to brands. Yeah. Yeah. But they, I got an in to like go and pitch, I think I was 19 at the time, to a schools group. So basically an organization who owned seven schools. And they were like, we're looking for someone to come and do be like our video partner for these seven schools. schools and through connections I sort of got that chance to go and pitch but I had never done anything like that and I remember being sort of stood around a boardroom where there was all these marketing managers from all the different schools plus the CEO of the school trust and I

hadn't really prepped because that used to be my style was just I don't know I didn't really know what preparation was again something I learned nicely from Ed and um just yeah it but again I just think I almost didn't know the stakes. I think I just sort of thought, I'm just going to say who I am, do what I, like say what I think we could do, show some examples. And I think that was a $15,000 project, $15,000 project for the seven schools. And when I won that, I remember just being like, I'm in the big leagues. I mean, it took about two years to complete all the work.

So obviously when you actually think about how much that was per project, it was not much at all. but it was such a sort of game-changing moment where I thought, okay, this is actually like, this is the real deal. I've kind of made a job here. So that was exciting. So getting those longer-term contracts, you said that that was a contract that basically took two years. That gave you a little bit more of a sense of stability in a way where you were able to kind

of expand the company a little bit. You knew there was a certain amount of work coming in, what the money is going to come in. And then you're like, okay, I need help. with editors, for example, so that was a little bit easier to make that transition, right? Yeah, so for that project, I brought on freelance drone operators to shoot at the seven schools, and then I think I brought on a junior creative filmmaker, freelance, who just worked with me. I think I set, you know, maybe it was like 10 days a month. But I was living with university friends at the time, and she would come into my kitchen,

and we would just be sat there doing it. It all felt quite trial and error. But yeah, that was, I guess, that starting process of like building. So that's where I was like so gradual. There was never like, I'm now going to have a full-time employee and they're going to be in a swanky office. It was like slowly learning the different tools of what building and managing would be. Bringing in people's a big.

I was going to say, we've never seen that before on the show. So polite. I know. I was just, I didn't, I'll say this. I left my charger next door and my factory's about to die. Like, you just take two seconds. Yeah, yeah, go, go. We can go ahead. We'll continue the, we'll go. We'll continue the conversation. Yeah. Yeah, I never seen that before in the show with just little, little hand. I was actually thinking that's a great way for us to communicate, Carol, in case I want to say something. But everyone's going to see it though. That's the thing. I know. So now now it's going to be like, who's this all good guy putting his hand. not in the podcast.

I don't know if it'll be showing in the recording, but that's funny. No, no, you won't see it in the recording. That's fine. I have fabulous. Good's name. Celia, it's one of the, like with you coming on, it's also one of the few times

we've had a female owned production company owner come on. So, I'm a little bit curious, like, you being a woman, how was that journey for you as well? Did you have any roadblocks because you're a girl or was it like that it wasn't like an issue? Yeah, I mean, I'm glad you mentioned it because I think it was something I acknowledged when

I was a videographer actually is that I had very few female role models who ran production companies to see like to look up to. There was no one I was like, that's what I want to do. Which probably worked well because it actually meant that I took, there were things I admired about many different production companies or business owners, female and male, and I kind of then probably use them all as a bit of an inspiration board rather than just being like, that is it. But yeah, definitely. I mean, I remember when I was a videographer, I had my first, one of the first shoots

for one of the schools we were working out where it was like a kind of directed campaign, not just like the videography capture. So I had a cinematographer with a steady cam on. and I think I had an assistant as well and we were shooting rugby and the coach kind of came over and actually I brought my friend along who just played rugby

and he just kind of, it was the time you know when you're kind of young and it was like you're almost cosplaying work I was just like why don't you come along for a day and see me do my thing and he was like okay I'll come along anyway so he came along and then when we were starting shooting

the rugby coach came over and just came over to my friend Ben and just basically was like, okay, so what's the plan? Like, what are we going to do here? And then he just turned and was like, I don't know why you're talking to me. She's in charge. And he kind of just was like, all right, nice.

But it was that like, it was just those little moments. Of course I understand with rugby as well. It is obviously a male sport. And maybe there were some assumptions there, but, or male focused. So I don't know. There would definitely have been moments. And I think outside of around that same time that I started tiny, also co-founded a community for female and non-binary filmmakers based off of exactly that feeling

of not knowing many other people in the industry to be able to talk to. Probably partly also because it was lockdown. It was a lonely time. But myself and my co-founder Izzy, who actually I met through Instagram when a year before on International Women's Day I did a call out being like, I don't know any female non-binary filmmakers. Please like, reveal yourself. And she basically popped up and was like, hey, I'm a freelance producer, we should go for a coffee.

And it was right before lockdown. We met up in London. I remember I came down to the big city and we went for a lunch and just really hit it off. And it suddenly felt like making a friend who really understood it all. So then, yeah, a year later, we started this community and now it's around 1,000 members. And it's exactly for that, like, basically amplifying female and non-bino creators in the industry. and also helping them get work. We basically see it as this like,

a lot of people put cool outs on Instagram, right? For like, we need a camera operator, whatever, and we sort of screenshot them or a whole community does, put them on the chat. And I just love the idea that these people who did the cool out might just get flooded with female and non-binary creators and not really know where they've come from. So we kind of just see it.

It's this little like, we open the door and then we just like hurry people through being like, come on, get out there. So it's just trying to make that easier. which has been very rewarding. And actually, Ed might be a nice time for you to talk about queer lens as well. Yeah. So, I mean, kind of inspired by making moves, which Cedar and Izzy set up,

I did a very similar thing for LGBTQ plus filmmakers in the industry. Kind of similar reason things why was at uni, I was into the drama scene, into the arts and the queer community. they were everywhere and it was lovely and really refreshing and inclusive environments that actually going into TV, suddenly I kind of expected it to be like that and it was lost again. So I wanted to make sure there was a space for the LGBTQ plus community within the world of production. There are some, we're currently putting together our impact report at the moment. but the stats on kind of LGBTQ plus experiences in the industry are crazy.

I'm not going to trample the stats, but a very high percentage of people go back into the closet at work and hear kind of negative comments towards them. So the idea of the group was to make sure we could create a space where an open space where people could ask and give advice and similarly share jobs, which for safe productions where they can be heard and be part of a community whether that community is LGBTQ plus or not but a really safe environment to work around

I think just adding on that something that Ed and I well actually Ed you and I've never really spoken about this but I definitely have with Izzy before that I feel very lucky the only sets I go on really are tiny's so like we've become very accustomed to to yeah, safe, inclusive, kind, you know, non-harrical, where possible sets that everyone is looked after and well-fed and not going to be working crazy long hours. And I think when I'm doing these events with making moves and I'm sure, I do you have the same with queer lens, you hear these horror stories which are not rare. That's the sad part. It's like most people's experience on these sets or like, you know, they're a freelancer getting booked on a job where they don't know the other people. This is more in short form, obviously longer form.

you build longer relationships. We're actually like they don't know rocking up at 6 a.m. at some random maybe petrol station to be taken an hour somewhere else for the random shoot location. They don't know who they're going to be with and they don't actually know that they're going to be looked after or that everyone's going to be kind. And then sadly, more often than not, you hear these stories that actually people have been, whether it is just small comments or behaviours or whatever it might be that people don't feel safe. And I think like that is a big driver for us generally when running,

tiny is like we try and almost like have that aim to help make the industry a better place as kind of our North Star and then like you know like we're talking about quoting like all of our decision making on granular sometimes really boring things will all kind of be with that in mind of like we believe that great content can be made without having to be propped up by a shit industry that doesn't care about people it's like why in what other I know there are other craft industries out there as well, but like, I don't know. It almost doesn't make sense of like, why would we just accept? Because there are a lot of people who just go, oh, it's video production.

Of course you're going to be working 5 a.m. until midnight. And, you know, then you've got to drive home and dula. That's just the industry. Like, deal with it. It's kind of why, why? Why are we having to do with that? It's a very burnout mentality. And it doesn't matter who you are in this space.

Like a lot of sets and a lot of productions go with that approach, you know, like work massive hours. And the one good thing about the corporate world is that it's kind of predetermined the structure for you. You know, your clients are coming in. Nine to five. Nine to five, baby. I'm not getting in earlier. Yeah. So true.

Like, don't get me wrong. I've had time where I want to do earlier starts because I want to skip out on the traffic is Toronto traffic is horrendous. And then the client's like, can we do it later in the day? And I'm like, all right. Can you come in right at rush hour? It's like, no. I don't want to be in the rush hour. I remember there was a set that I went on, which offered the kind of both of those comments.

But one of the crew members, she came up to me and she was like, God, like, your sets are just so nice. And I was like, what do you mean? Like, why did you say that? And she was like, well, the crew spoke to me today. And I was like, is the barn? the crew. The crew? Other crew members.

And I was like, is the bar that low? That low? Because the other heads of departments were speaking to you, that's like a good set. That same day as well, we end up wrapping at like 5.30. I think we got in at like 7, 7.30 in the morning. And I think rap was meant to be at like 6 or whatever. And I was like, the team, I was like half an hour.

I go home. It's 5.30. And they all looked to be an amazing moment. It's like, We're not Jeter out for six. It's like, we've got everything we need. You got here at seven in the morning. You don't need to stay half an hour extra.

Go home. Enjoy your evenings. But it is crazy. And again, this is the reason why I moved from TV because I was just like, how is this sustainable? It's not. And people wear it like a badge of honour, to be honest. I think like we try and be the antithesis of the macho production companies.

And that's not gendered. It's more just an energy that's like, we're going to do this or we're going to burn ourselves and we're going to do all this stuff and look at us all these crazy heavy kit rigs and stuff that aren't needed

but we think they look cool like all this stuff basically that I think we just try and go like okay yeah maybe we do need that dolly shot or whatever so fine but it's justified and it's not just there

because it looks cool in the BTS photo it's like there because it's got a reason and as I says if people could go home send them home not just like you know, long days for the sake of it. I think saying that, obviously, we also always acknowledge when hard work is needed and when sometimes you just got to do a longer day and you don't complain and you just get on with it. Like it's a balance basically and I think we've always tried to have

this slight like honesty box mentality of just like it's all give a take and we will try and give a lot. So, you know, hopefully then it balances itself out if we have to like ask the other way. or whatever it might be and pull in some favors. But it's also because you're doing everything from a business mindset as well, right? When you understand when you, like you said, you understand when you need to go that extra mile for that particular shot, when you need that extra equipment. You're not doing things just for the sake of it. You're describing a set where people are wanting to get all the cool fun toys,

but these aren't the people that look at the balance sheet at the end of the day or what's coming in or out of the bank account, you know? Yeah, yeah. Like, everyone is like, you know, you know why, Hey, producer, you know why we need this Ari kit, kid it out like crazy with everything? Because I want that BTS shot on my phone. Yeah.

Oh my gosh, yeah. I know. I feel like I've really pissed off some cinematographer's DPs sometimes where I'll just be like, do we need to shoot on the Ari though? And they're like, yes. And sometimes they're right. So I've got better at just listening to them. but I feel like equally, you know, if it is a more commercial piece, sometimes you just don't need it.

Yeah, 100%. But I like what you guys are doing also trying to think of other ways to contribute to the community, creating these spaces for people to kind of gather, network. Was the name of that organization? They each have one, actually. Yeah. Making moves and movies is for female and binary creatives in the UK, and then Queer Lens is for LGBT Plus.

creatives in London plus hopefully the UK soon is it a website or is it like a Facebook Facebook group there are both both have Instagrams the making moves community lives on Discord and you can join via the website which is found via Instagram and then

Queer Lens is on WhatsApp yes what's that great yeah the more groups like that that start popping up it would be It's really valuable for this industry because people don't talk to each other in this space. That's partially also why we started this podcast. I mean, aside from the fact that we were bored at the time during COVID is why we started it. It became that thing where we can actually just start talking to a lot of different people

and people can learn and bounce ideas off of each other. And you never know who you might meet by doing these extra initiatives. That's the key thing, right? Yeah, 100%. And actually, I really like what you're doing. here and I think it's so nice for production companies to talk to each other as well. And we've always been quite keen on, I think I mentioned it earlier, but really connecting with other London-based production companies and what's been so nice as we've shared work

with them when we can't take it on or they've shared it with us. And that I think is like, and also sometimes that's like we're all friends mentality has also really benefited us when maybe clients are trying to slightly play off to production companies off each other and actually sometimes just letting them know. know that actually like, oh, so-and-so is actually a really good mate of mine and like, we know what you're doing here. Not obviously in that way. But I think this one. I see your tricks. I like that. It happens. It all happens. So I think it's just really nice to learn off of each other. And also, I mean, some of the, you know, founders I chat to have very

different business models to us. And it's not that we take it and kind of like use that to model our own. But it's almost just great to know what other people, how other people structure things and why that might work for them with the type of niche. they have or yeah things like that is really nice i'm sure also there's a big price differences too between you guys right like we've had certain leads come in talk to us and then talk to another company that we're friends with and then but we're in like different pricing tiers right like we're in the medium they're in the they're in the luxury so like it's and then they end up coming us sometimes they go with them so it's yeah there's differences it's knowing yeah knowing your worth and also i think

knowing why, like we've got better, I'd say, Edd, knowing why people might choose tiny. And I remember a couple of years ago, we sat with that for a bit because we didn't actually know. We were like, why would a brand choose us over another production company? What are our differentiators? And I think now we know that better. We almost have more confidence with when we're chatting with partners of like what we can add. I also think like if you look back to four years ago when we were looking at the production companies that we saw I don't like the competitors because we were friends with all of them

but like who are who the same brands were going to the same production companies when I look at those now I actually think that we've got such a clearer idea of who we are that actually those brands that we were comparing ourselves, the production companies we were comparing

ourselves to four years ago as you say with the business strategies and models and stuff like it's so different now yeah it's so different which is it feels nice to have the clarity. So let's expand on that a little bit. So let's say you're first starting that where it's like, okay, why would a client come to us specifically?

How did you guys, what kind of questions did you ask yourselves and what kind of answers did you give? Oh, shit. Yeah. Got it to do. It's a whole pitch. Calling them out. I know. It's very easy to say that we know this stuff for now.

I think to be fair I think it's a lot of what we touched on earlier of like that well many actually many things to be honest obviously the values is one thing but I don't know that needs to be gone into too much like I think we so outwardly

present in a way that I often think there's a lot of natural selection where like certain clients just don't probably come our way because they probably self-select that they're not quite right but our beyond we almost see that

the quality of content we put out should be a given. Like production companies making great content. You cannot just sell yourselves on that because like isn't that the whole point of what you do? Isn't that what every production company should do? So I think in the last couple of years, we've worked really hard to actually build in processes behind that that basically make us a complete joy to work with and almost like benefits individual people at the organisations we work on with, whether it's a founder of a small startup or a marketing manager in a large organization, that we benefit their day-to-day life because they know exactly what we're doing,

why we're doing it. They can see at any stage of the process where we're at. The communication is flawless. And then hopefully, almost 99% of the time, what we deliver matches their expectations. So like, and hopefully friendly, fun people that they get on with as well. And it's like almost if you can do all of that and then make sure the content is, stunning and bonus it's sustainable and bonus we're working with diverse sets it's almost trying to make it a bit of a no-brainer if you acknowledge that all of that cannot be done for peanuts so then it's

kind of like yeah you're paying a bit more but like look at what you get on the other side I think when you're in doubt sorry I was just going to I was just going to say when you're in if you're in doubt about what makes you guys great check out what your clients have said about you on your reviews. You'll start to see certain patterns and things that come up from different clients. A lot of those reviews are AI written nowadays, Carol. I don't know. I meant them personally.

Pre-chat GPT, they might have been more genuine nowadays. Just write a five-star Google review for this vendor I use. Oh, my God. But you just see some patterns. what I was going to say see is obviously you mentioned kind of we don't need to go into the values which I'm not going to do but like our top value probably is we well as in it's just it is what you said but kind of in a value our top value probably is we champion and that everything that we've chatted about hopefully rings true to that but I think with the client side like we are

there to support and empower our clients not just deliver the content it's much more than that So I think as we said probably half an hour ago, like every decision that we make in the way that we talk about ourselves are like in line towards our kind of our mission and our goals. And we champion is probably like the one that we speak about most day today. So and that goes for the crews we work with, but also the clients we work for. Our other three values while we're here are.

We game, we're open, and we get you. And hopefully, yeah, those four feel like quite aligned with what Ed and I have been yabbering about. And they sort of underpin, I think, yeah, what we do. It sounds like you guys are doing everything right, for sure, because one thing you guys mentioned earlier in the conversation that is not super common with a lot of production companies, is that you got acquired by a larger group-owned companies. or agency, yes. So walk us through a little bit of that

because that's something very new, not only to us, but to a lot of our listeners as well. Yeah, so I'll talk a little bit about the process to getting there. And then Ed, I think it'll be really useful as well from your perspective to hear actually how that like integration process is being because you've been kind of spearheading that. But we were not looking to sell. I think like many founders, it was not something that was at all on my radar.

but I'd been aware of this social media agency spin for a while, friends of the industry, you know, again, London's small world, like just aware of these people and had always heard that Alex and Max who run it are just like incredibly nice people. So I think when they about over a year ago now kind of reached out, we'd had coffees and things before, but I could tell instantly there was a different agenda here. I think we did take it seriously, probably, just because we knew that actually what we'd heard was that they were great people. So we were like, let's at least explore what this could look like. And outwardly, we admired what's been, we're doing on the, there are 360 social agency.

So they don't do what we do, but they very much sit in an in an adjacent world where, you know, I could see why they wanted to acquire a production company, basically. They have loads of wonderful clients and they do a lot of great social content and ads and community management, all this stuff. actually they would say themselves they had they didn't they couldn't keep up with basically the need for great content and also what they could produce in house was more on the sort of lo-fi reactive stuff that again we don't really do so it was like a clever we do that sort of we do social content but it's more cinematic social content so it was like a quite a clever little fit um and yeah I think because we hadn't thought about it um I spent a little bit um I spent a lot of time, a lot of months chatting with them around what it would look like and probably

over-asked questions. I'm sure they were thinking, oh my God, this is like a nightmare that she's wanting so much detail. But I really, really wanted to understand that they understood what made us special, all these things we've spoken about about what we do and why. I was kind of like, if you're just looking to buy a production company, don't bother buying tiny because like you won't want to come with all. You won't want all of this stuff that we care about because it's not always the most commercially optimized, to be honest. But they did. And I think they also really acknowledge the brand, which is an interesting note because I think if anyone was wanting that to be the trajectory of their company, I do think like the value of brand is key.

I mean, I can't say that's the reason why they bought us. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's the reason that they thought to buy us or the fact that, you know, they've asked them about it since. And they've just said like your tiny's name kept coming up in conversations when we would ask around to find out like companies who would be great. and who are great in the production company world. And I wouldn't be surprised that's because we were like just, you know, doing a lot of our own social content, really focusing on how we appeared outwardly, not just what we were delivering for our clients as well. And yeah, then, I mean, I won't go into the nitty-gritty,

but, you know, M&A processes quite intense. So that sort of then continued for about nine months. And then in September, we announced it to the team on both sides. spin and tiny and kind of yeah kicked off the being part of an agency which was super nerve-wracking if I'm honest like Ed and I really rehearsed how we were going to tell the team because we're a really small team we were it was myself and Ed and four others at the time and again with all of the conversations with spin everything had been from my side driven to like how we could make this best for the team and like not impact them negatively at all I mean I had advisors who

would constantly be so confused why I was not finance. Like, I was never asking questions about the finances. I was just always asking questions about like, how would that impact this? And I got my lawyer to like draft in some of the most ridiculously non-binding clauses around like retaining control over certain whimsical things here and there that he was like, this is so stupid. They're never going to listen. Or like they will, but why are we spending time on this? Do you not want to just focus on getting more money for yourself kind of thing? And I was like, no, like the team needs to look. It needs to work out. But it's been so worth it because I think. in that process, been understood what we and what I care about.

And now is also meant that, I mean, obviously, you're not here chatting to the team themselves. And I don't want to speak for them. But I would say for actually for everyone, it's only been a net positive in terms of like, we now have access to 60 person, each person agency, who we can chat to. We go to events with, join their Christmas party, have them on Slack. We had a skills masterclass from someone earlier. Like, we get all of that. But we also stay in our current office day to day.

it feels still like the same old tiny and for our partners as well, that hasn't changed for them. Like they've not been affected by what's like tiny being acquired. And I think all of those things were very integral to make it a right decision. Ed, I don't know if you have thoughts on it from your side. Yeah, I mean, picking up from September, I mean, we agreed to a 100-day rule, which ultimately meant nothing was going to change within the first. 100 days. Of course, things behind the scenes that Seder and I kind of were working on were

changing, but for our team, and still with our team, like their day to stay was exactly the same and continues to be. We're still, we're still the same name. We still have the same clients. We're still in the same office. We've now just got that kind of bigger offering for our team to learn from the agency. We also, I mean, it's great because, I mean, as C said, one of, one of of our concerns, we would lose maybe some autonomy about what we did and what we didn't do, but the agency, they bought us because they know we're kind of the experts in what we do, and they trust that, and they believe in our mission. So that's been really, yeah, I mean, it's been great that we can still take on our clients. We have something called a value and vibe check.

So every project that comes through the door We look at we say is this Pretty much is this doing bad To the world around us people or planet And if there are any alarm bells We put it through a value and vibe check Some of them we will say outright no to So as they an oil company came to us and said

When you do this for us we'd be like sorry Probably not the right fit But if there are any which I'm raising some small alarm bells We'll put it to the team And ask them to vote and ultimately the team get a decision in whether we work on a project or not. But going back to the agency, they're very supportive of that. And there have been projects which we haven't gone ahead with,

but I mean, the majority actually have aligned with us anyway. So it's something that they do believe in our mission, which is great, which has made our lives super easy with that transition as well. I mean, we're starting to get to the nitty-gritty bits about production process. and where the responsibility falls on the comm side of things, etc, etc. So ask me in three months time and I'll catch you up to where we're at in three months. So you guys are still allowed to take your own projects and everything, right? Yeah.

So most of our projects at the moment are still kind of directly through Tiny. And then we support the spin team and vice versa when they need. Yeah, what's been nice is tiniest model we've never really done retainers we've always been project by project whilst we have very long-term clients some of whom we've worked with for eight years

we do never really know what's around the corner and that is very classic for a production company you know I suspect if you took a handful of production company owners yourself included well you may maybe corporates a little bit more retainer based I don't know but a lot of their project based you won't know where you are in three months

And from a personal level, that risk is huge and can be incredibly stressful when not only three months, but there would be times where we would be doing really, really well and the team would be completely booked and busy. But actually, did I hand on heart know that I could pay their salary next month? No. Did I completely trust that we would because we've done it for, you know, 48 months before? Yeah. But like, if you took time to pause and think about that, can be critical. Luckily, I didn't. But I think whilst that wasn't a driver for this joining with spin,

and I was happy, I hadn't really taken time to pause and think about that way of operating, I think it's almost been after joining, realizing that that responsibility and risk has gone, I think has been amazing and also has freed up a lot more time for big picture creative thinking, like focusing on what actually Ed and I, our time like should be best spent on. Yeah, they manage a lot more of the operational side that I found really tedious. And I think little things like that, especially given so many production company owners, I don't know if you guys find this, but most people start and run a production company because they like making films and they like shooting and they like editing and do-da-da-da-l-l-a.

And then suddenly you build a company and you get into the weeds of the admin. If you're lucky, I, you know, like me, I really enjoyed some of admin and I like managing people. And I don't mind not producing the work myself. But of course there's always a point it gets to where you think, God, I could just be doing any company at this point. Like there's nothing creative in my day to day. And I think it's been really lovely to actually bring that back in, kind of be relieved by the spin team to,

so they can focus on stuff that they're great at and we can kind of stay in all lane. I'm a little curious. I'm not sure if I might have caught that, but was there any particular or like specific offering that made you? A lot of the stuff you highlighted is basically what will make the transition from joining the team convenient. You know, a lot of like these little things that are supposed to, you know, kind of help with the operations of the company. And like you just highlighted in that aspect, was there any any tangible offering from Spin that really drove you to think about doing this partnership?

and also because you mentioned, for example, that you know, you don't know what your income is going to be like in three months time, four months time. Was that something that they highlighted to within that aspect as well? It's like. Yeah, they couldn't guarantee anything. But I think they have a whole load of clients who now need video production. And so we've been pitching in the last three months as a group

because there's another organization as well under the spin group. And that's been really great. So it's almost like this pipeline, you know, you asked earlier where we were getting our work from as Celia Films, but I guess as tiny, we were getting it a lot from word of mouth from marketing and like a tiny bit of outbound, but it was never successful. So there were sometimes these moments of, you know, we're working so much on the day to day. We haven't thought about what's happening in four months. And then you would get to maybe that time, November, say, and suddenly work disappears, but you're like, it's too late, but you just weren't there to think about it. And what's amazing is Spin have a new biz. team who are constantly working the pipeline connections and they are feeding us, you know, new biz the whole time. And they do a lot of that qualification of is this worth your time to pitch on first and stuff like that. So that's actually been a real benefit. But I mean, you know, obviously when you sell your business as well, there's obviously other financial benefits as well, which of course made it like an initial like, are we even going to consider this? And making sure that

they kind of value the company for what it is, not just like the bare bones, but also the brand, the values, the things like that that set it apart was key. Okay. So it's now become, like you've been acquired and a lot of the stuff that you don't, you weren't a big fan of like you said, the admin, they're kind of handling a lot of that more a bit now. Yeah, most of it. Ed still loves admin. So he retains, he tries to hold on to the admin, whereas I'm like, bye. I keep the debts that I enjoy and then pass on the other bits, which are a bit more time-consuming. So it's pretty early still with you guys and spin now.

So what are kind of the next steps? What's on the horizon for 2026 in terms of now, now that your goals before were what it was as tiny studios, but now because you've been acquired, I'm sure the goals and the direction you want to go is obviously shifted. Now, what is that like for you guys? To be honest, they haven't really in a good way. So we still have our same North Star, which is to create content that goes beyond the screen. And then beneath that, we've always had targets for the company that are split into financial, creative and impact. The difference is that now we have to present those to the group, which was a bit nerve-wracking when I had to do that for the first time.

No longer just a room of six people, it's suddenly presenting what we believe in and what we're aiming towards. to like 80 people. But yeah, probably the financial target has a little bit more scrutiny and actually just experts around us. I think that's what's been epic for Ed and I is that like we used to pluck these things a little bit out of thin air and go like, let's aim to hit this or whatever. And now we've got a finance team who are forecasting us for months ahead who are saying, yeah, that seems doable.

And actually, why don't you be a bit more ambitious and have you thought about this? But if you're going to do that, you need to make sure that this, you know, all of that stuff has been really cool. But for the creative and impact target, we still lead that. And I think it's all still focused on what we were saying earlier of like, can we help make the industry a better place? Obviously run a successful company in the meantime. And actually that might change maybe after a couple of years of being with spin

because things might change for them as well. But at the moment and throughout this early integration process, I think it was always going to be quite key that like, tiny is left. Like they bought tiny because they want a great production company and I think they acknowledge that if they come in

and fiddle with that too much, they might lose all the value that we have built. So I think they kind of want to let us do our thing and, you know, they try, again, yeah, they just basically trust that we know what we're doing

and that we've got the right agenda at heart. And I think for me personally, it's probably just learning to be a bit more commercially minded, but that was something that was long over. for due. So that's been a really, like, lovely learning for me.

When you were being, when you were going through the M&A acquisition process and everything, I'm sure they had to, like, evaluate your company and everything. What was one of the more surprising things that you discovered about that? To be honest, I don't know. I mean, it was all surprising because I'd just never done it before. And I just had no idea how you would come to put a number on a company. And I think maybe, not surprising, but I will say for anyone who might think you're going through that process is like you are, no one else is ever going to value your company. Okay, change that. At our stage of organisation, talking to people with a synthesized organisation, basically, normally you would

have to be hitting like, I think it's like five million EBITDA to basically get bought to make it make sense for like a private equity deal, all these kinds of things. Like small businesses are not of art in our industry are not hitting five million EBITR. And so I think basically the sentimental value for a founder is probably always going to be more than anyone externally will value it, especially, you know, we were in like a, we've been doing a lot of investment and basically we're trying to really focus in on parts of the business. So like basically we weren't preparing to sell. So the books were not, they were not, you know, created in a way to to be best for selling. So I think that's probably just something that people have to acknowledge

is that like you have to be able to look at all of the different benefits from decisions like these for both, you know, for your employees, for yourself, for the company itself, and then kind of make a best decision. But yeah, I think Ed and I spent a lot of months going back and forth on, yeah, I don't know. I've got videos basically, I did like little video diaries to myself and I found some the other day that it was like a Monday. I was like, it's Monday. And I think, yeah, I've just said out loud to some of the first time that I think I'm going to sell shiny. And then it was like, two days later, it was like, it's Wednesday. And I was crying and I was like, I should not be selling the company. So it's like, it's just like a constant yo-yo. And all

the meanwhile, you've got to keep a company running. You can't tell anyone. And Ed, actually was amazing because I could tell him, well, I had to, to be honest, it just like wouldn't have worked otherwise. And I think I remember saying, I'd just like, please keep. I was like, I think I'm going to be a bit like emotionally volatile for the next few weeks. Like, can you just try and keep the ship running smoothly, which is Ed's forte? So he cracked on. And I think that's, yeah, pretty key, to be honest. Because also, these things fall through the whole time.

And also, they shouldn't be the thing that's the most, like, almost joining spin is hopefully not the most exciting thing that happened to Tiny in the last year. I would say probably becoming B-Corp was a much more like, value affirming thing for us. It should almost just be like, we see it as like a stepping stone for where we want to go. Hopefully being a part of a bigger organisation, Ed and I being more influential

at higher levels in a larger organisation should mean that the things we care about can be said at a bigger level and kind of amplified on a larger stage. Even just like, you know, spin host events with meta. They host another event with TikTok is like, we get to come

and kind of be in these rooms that we would have never been in before, small organizations. And that's pretty cool because hopefully, yeah, we can start to, like, shake up the production side of things a little bit. A lot of big opportunities coming. Yeah. Speaking of B-Corp, like, I noticed with this podcast,

all the people we've spoken to that are B-Corp certified, they tend to be on the West Coast of North America. Like, is that a common thing out in the, UK or what as in being BECOM is it a common thing in the UK yeah because I haven't really seen it like anywhere else aside from the West Coast I only think there are I think there are only like I don't want to pluck numbers but I'm pretty sure it's like 217 that's such a plucked number but um I'm it's there on no no companies full stop production companies I don't know what the number is in the UK, in the UK.

Gosh, I didn't do that. It's not, can I look, can I fact check myself really quickly now? I'm like, that's a wild play. We could just say roughly 200. We could just say it's not a lot. It's not a lot. It's not a lot. Yeah, but if you put it out on the podcast, it's going to be flat checking. But there aren't.

2,700 in the UK. You were all. by quite a bit. He was off by a 10. Should I just try that again? Take two. There are 2,700 in the, 2,700 B-Cops in the UK, which I was not aware that there were that many. But I guess how many businesses are in the UK?

Many more. But there are quite a few agency B-Corps. On the production company side, there are fewer that I've come across. There are a handful within our network. But, I mean, spin aren't, but no. That's interesting. Yeah. So you can.

They are now by association though. But that's my follow-up question is like, does that nullify their B-corp? Because they're owned by a company that isn't B-Corp now. Two questions. It's a good question. And we're going through the process at the moment. So when you get acquired, you have to recertify. but because they've just changed the standards,

we've got two years. We'd have to recertify in three years anyway. So we're just resertifying a year early. And the way in which we can keep our B-Corp status is if we have full autonomy over our decision-making, our processes, our finances, et cetera, et cetera, which we do. So obviously, spin-see all of this, but at the end of the day, kind of we're making those decisions.

So that is how we can maintain our B-Corp status. Similarly, again, if we're maintaining autonomy over which projects we take on, again, that means we can maintain our B-Corp status. So we will be going through the process of resertifying within this year and next year, which brings it year early. But the way that I see it is B-Corp have just released their new standards. So things are changing in the B-Corp ecosystem. And B-Corp isn't a, we've got it, we're there,

we don't need to do anything else. It is very much about continuous progression. So I kind of see it more as where there are holes in our company, how we can grow and continue to kind of move forward. Yes, Celia. Thanks. I was just thinking if, do you want to just give some tips of anyone? was listening thinking of should they try and go for the process of being a B corp as a production

company yeah go for it um absolutely i mean the reason why we became B corp and the reason why i think is beneficial for people to come B corp is we were always speaking about our values and what we were doing and B corp was a means of saying we are doing what we're saying we're doing and it definitely from employee, from hiring, where we've seen the most value is the people who are applying for our roles. And generally, they stay conversations in the office. It's, the values are huge within our employees. We, it's difficult to say whether commercially it's benefited us. I've connected with a lot of B-courts. I'm in conversations with a lot of B-courps. So I like to think it has. No, maybe a bit of work has come from it.

so far, but at the end of the day, you're becoming B-Corp because you value people and planet equal to profit rather than profit over people and planet. So I think it's a really important thing to, when you're navigating your values, is that something that is truly important to you? And I guess it's also a bit about cost. What, sorry to butter, now it's just to say, it's also, I guess, if it's a small business who's considering it, it's acknowledging that there is a cost involved, but also just like a time resource to do it. I mean, I can't remember how much of your time it took up to do the certification process and to get all the documents in place.

But I think it was half probably because you'd already been pretty meticulous with having documentation. But I think, yeah, it's just a note, really, if you're a small business thinking of it, who doesn't maybe have lots of formal documentation for things, that might just be an added thing. And we all understand, right, like you've got the day-to-day job of serving your clients to be the priority. So it is just trying to find time to make it work behind the scenes.

What kind of formal documents like did you need to organize for them? Is it just? Because I think we had a conversation with another guest where it was like a kind of equipment you use. If it's like something as small as like rechargeable batteries, like that counts as part of the points that you need to get for there's like a total amount of points or something like that and that counts towards it. Yeah.

Yeah. So the old system, so the old. standards you were on a score system up to 200 points to become a you can actually ever hit 200 points because even some of the point systems they were contradictory to each other um because of the routes that they were going but in order to become a b corp you needed 80 points minimum and that could be spread across five different categories the reason why they've changed the standards is you could have you could have scored zero in one category and 80 in another category and still become b court But with the new standards, they're taking away the point system.

And it's much more focused on a pass-fail thing, but you need to score a blanket pass over all of the now eight categories. So it is going to remove those companies who might be doing really good on governance and for employees, but actually on the environment side, they're doing really badly. So that's the change that they're focusing on. With regards to the documentation, I mean, it's pretty, it's pretty thorough. Like, you need all processes written down.

You need to have all your accounts in place. But I think that's kind of what it was is like the, you know, they would say something around, do you have examples of when you might, I'm going to make something up here, but maybe like be collaborative with the client or something or whatever it might be or like allow opportunity for client or like stakeholder probably said involvement or something. And we'd be like, oh yeah, we do. At the end of every project, we asked for feedback from a client

and we like basically say how was that, was a good, bad, what can we do? That was something we already did. But it would be like, do you have that documented? So we're like, okay, we're going to go make a form that says, were you happy? So it was like things that we already did, but you just had to kind of formalize it, which is no bad thing anyway. And it doesn't take, it doesn't take ages.

But I think it was just that's almost like an example of what it might look like, like what those actual things are. And I think that's the real value in B-Corp is that it helps you spot where you might be, not failing, but like where you could improve within your company and to help kind of sculpt and build those processes to make you a better company. And I think that's a really useful way to kind of see that. And definitely when I look at the new standards, I'm like, okay, actually, it's really interesting. We haven't thought about including this on diversity or whatever it might be.

So yeah, it's definitely, it's a good pathway to learn how to better your company. Yeah, I was just thinking about that. Like even maybe just do, I was thinking for us, Carol, even just trying out the process, maybe not going through it fully just to see kind of like oh can we plug some holes in just to like and i'm wondering if even if that maybe helped you guys even with the with the acquisition because you already had all this stuff by becoming before right 100% like the data room process for an acquisition is super super intense where basically you have like two weeks to gather intense amount of documentation from like financial legal processes all this stuff and it was fantastic

to be able to basically just delve into well-ordered folders and just pull things out or like you know we'd gone through the process of building out an employee three employee handbooks basically that covered off like policies procedures and all other things related to employees so like and that was a really good process which I'd actually massively recommend to any business owners who have team is like do work with an HR consultant to build out those structures. Not just for yourself, it protects the organisation, but also actually it just means that the employees themselves feel so protected because any form of procedural thing they might have come up for them. They don't have to initially speak to you about it. They can actually just go and find the information they need

from the documentation. And then if they think it's relevant, you know, this might be like, yeah I don't know grievances or like maternity policies things like that that they might just not want to discuss at this stage but like they can see it all there but yeah there were so many things where actually like it was like requested did did did to do

and I just basically like linked all those requests to like one employee handbook and was like it's all in there and that was that saved a lot of time so yeah it's definitely good But yeah. If memory serves me, I don't, because there is a, there is a submission fee that like you can still pull together with the documents anyway

so that you have that all in line before you have to pay any fee, Dario. So if you are looking to it to, yeah, exactly sit. So if you are looking to just use it as a guide, I think you can do most of it. And actually also. I was a same. We always say that because there is a cost involved, like, being B-Corp shouldn't be the B-Lendor. It should just be like more organisations should just basically be considering people and

planet in their processes rather than need to be like, I'm a B-Corp and I'm doing all these things, which is a massive time drain. But actually it's just like if people are just building businesses consciously, that's like such a win. Yeah. And we're in the process. So as part of B-Corp, you have to do a yearly impact report, which I would advise to every every company because it's just really useful to look back on your year and kind of what

you've been doing towards the community towards the planet etc but B-coop isn't possible for everyone as Celia mentioned like it is a is a resource like it takes time on a human resource a time resource financial resource and it's important to look at your suppliers whether they're B-cop or not B-Cops obviously if you see that stamp of approval it's it's very clear and it's very clear that they're making efforts to do good in the world. But with our impact report, it's not B-Corp's obviously integrated into it, but it's not the forefront of it

because we want to make sure that it's not like, we'll only work with B-Corp's. It's actually, there are good, people are doing good things everywhere, and you don't need that stamp of approval. Obviously, it's great, but only if you've got the kind of capacity to take that challenge on.

interesting this is a B-Corp podcast at this point that's always good to hear the perspective yeah yeah we've had a few come on and uh it was like mixed from what they were telling us but I like the the fact that

I like how preparing to apply for it is uh is good because you're getting all your stuff all your ducks in a row kind of thing which is something like like a lot of us kind of put off at times just because there's so many hats we're juggling and whatnot so many things to do. So I like that aspect of it, actually.

That kind of converted me a little bit on it just now because no one really phrased it in that way. So I actually have the site open right now. It was just looking at it. But yeah. Good luck. Yeah, yeah. Might not go through it at all the way, but at least like if I can see like, okay, we got to fix this process and that process because we've been doing that a lot lately.

actually this past week we just went through all of our contracts and like rework them all and oh good Gemini is so good Gemini pro has been amazing in that regard we've been able to fix that up and just seeing what else we got to do next based on that right so yeah it's good and it's hard right when you run a creative business to actually set the time aside to do the more like admin things but then they do help you in the long run and then release time to do the other fun yeah I just find the time is hard because like for example like something as simple as like okay like organizing all of our finances to find out the margins on each project like I started that a little bit last year and I finished 24 and then I got so like burnt out doing that year that I was like I don't want to do

the other one like you all keeps saying like oh did you do 2023 I was like man I'll get to it at some point. Yeah. So time consuming, going through all the invoices and then the freelancer invoices and then trying to like see like what everything costs. I was like, yeah, get to it. Especially if you start bending yourself more with the client work as well. If you start taking on more of that, especially the day to day, it becomes a little bit

more exhausting to try to find the time for the other stuff as well because then it's like, you know, it goes back to that. Especially older stuff too where it's like it's done. like I don't really need it right now. But, you know, if we want to be acquired, it's something I need to kind of figure out. Yeah, you do need to know all the things. I hope now you guys for future projects have like a live sheet

so you don't have to do it retrospectively. That would be a good tip. I should do that. Ed, you can share, Ed, why don't you share your project finance template? Yeah. You're nice, like, kind. You guys would have to update it with your rates for Canada. But, yeah, Ed has like a little project finance sheet per project.

that will literally spit out. So when we're quoting, it will say how profitable the project will be. And it kind of lives all the information. So if we're, what we're charging freelancers will go in and all that. That can be our little gift. Say thank you for getting us all the podcast. I'll take it. I'll take it.

Anything helps. We appreciate that. And yeah, this one has been one of our longer ones as of late. You know, you guys have a lot to this year, yeah. You guys have a lot to share and a lot of like, I have an interesting story about how everything is gone. So we appreciate you guys joining us and sharing. Well, thank you so much for having us.

Yeah, I'm glad we finally got a chance to do it as well. Explain, did you explain? Sad time, lucky. Did you explain how you came up with the name already? Did we go over that? No, we didn't. Yeah. We didn't for tiny.

So it was basically, I worked with the strategist, but the idea was I wanted something that felt approachable. and basically all the things that worked about Celia films with it sounded quite approachable and friendly and like softer maybe but also the fact that the company worked a lot in education at the time I didn't want to ostracize those clients with the name change so they proposed a few options and Tiny was just it just worked and also I liked the idea of having a company name that you could remove the second part

so Tiny Studios just as like a and then that would almost become a bit of a you know, oh yeah, that's very tiny. You know, it almost could become a bit of an adjective. Like, that was always a bit of a draw. And I would love, you know, for people down the line to see our way of doing production and being like, oh, that's the tiny way. But we'll see.

Watch this case. Nice. I like that. I like that. That's great. Cool. Well, thank you guys. It's been really fun.

We appreciate it. Thank you so much. Yeah. Have a good rest of your week. Thanks for listening to this episode of Creatives Grab Coffee. Please make sure to follow and engage with us on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, and your favorite podcast app. Creatives Grab Coffee is created by LAPS Productions, a video production company based in Toronto, Canada. Creatives Grab Coffee is also sponsored by...

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