Creatives Grab Coffee - #99 - Video Strategy & Retainers (ft. Innovate Media)

Episode Date: July 4, 2025

In this episode of Creatives Grab Coffee, Ben Amos from Innovate Media and Engage Video Marketing shares his journey from high school media teacher to agency owner, coach, and published author. Ben dives deep into the importance of video strategy, explaining how producers can elevate client outcomes by focusing beyond just production. He breaks down his signature seven-part video strategy framework, discusses how to incorporate strategic thinking into sales conversations, and explains how his retainer model works with select clients. Whether you’re running a corporate video agency or freelancing, this episode is packed with insights to help you grow your business through smarter, more strategic content.TIMESTAMPS00:00 – Episode Introduction and Guest Welcome03:05 – Ben’s transition from teaching to video production06:45 – Launching Engage Video Marketing and the podcast08:30 – The pivotal moment that sparked a strategy-first mindset14:00 – Ben’s 7 elements of effective video strategy21:10 – Strategy vs. production vs. management: the Venn diagram27:45 – Why Innovate Media avoids paid ad management34:16 – How to approach B2B vs B2C clients strategically42:51 – What makes a video retainer model actually work59:52 – Coaching and mentorship for video producers1:06:07 – Ben’s future goals and closing thoughtsSPONSORS:Canada Film Equipment: www.CanadaFilmEquipment.comAudio Process: www.Audioprocess.ca🎵 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2vHd8BdbkMQITFZmDJ0bo9🍏 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/creatives-grab-coffee/id1530864140🎞️ Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS – https://www.lapseproductions.comTo learn more about the show, visit: https://www.creativesgrabcoffee.com/#CreativesGrabCoffee #videographyhacks #videography #videographer #videoproduction #businesspodcast #videoproductionpodcast #lapseproductions #videomarketing #videoproductioncompany #videoproductionservices

Welcome to Creative Scrap Coffee, the podcast on the business of video production. Creative Scrap Coffee is hosted by Dario Nuri and Kirill Lazerov from Labs Productions. Our goal is to share knowledge and experiences from video production professionals around the world. Whether you're a freelancer looking to start your own business or a seasoned business owner aiming to scale your company, this is the show for you. Join us as we develop a community of like-minded creatives looking to learn and help each other grow. Welcome to the business of video production. Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee. Before we get started with the show, let's go over today's sponsors. Do you have a shoot in Toronto?

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Hey guys, welcome to another episode of Creators Grab Coffee. Today we have a very special guest. We got Ben Amos from Innovate Media and Engage Video Marketing. Ben, welcome to the show. G'day guys. Thanks for having me on the show. And yeah, we got another Australian again, this time from Queensland, which I was told is different from Melbourne, but to me it's kind of all just Australia. He said it's the sunny side part of Australia, which to us in cold Canada, all of it is sunny.

Sunny. Hey, we're a big country and there's a lot of different places you guys got to come down and visit someday. Soon. Soon. I definitely need to check out Australia. I've been once before already. So yeah, it's Dario's turn next.

My turn. Excellent. So anyways, let's just get a little bit of an intro from you. Tell us a little bit about how you got into video and a little bit about your companies. Yeah, sure. So thanks for having me on the show. So look, I started my video production company officially back in 2008. So at that stage, I left a teaching career, so I was teaching film and media studies in secondary schools, in high schools. And I just had enough of that, right? I didn't see that as the future career direction for me. And like any creative, I just wanted to go out

and just get paid to do the thing that I loved doing and that was video making. I've been doing that since I was a as a young kid with my dad's kind of giant VHS camcorder that went over one shoulder you know and had the battery pack over the other shoulder and the VHS recorder over the the other shoulder right so it was like loaded up and we had this you you know, bit of VHS kit at home because my dad was a hobbyist and I loved it from those early days of just experimenting and with tape to tape recording and stuff like that. Anyway, long story short, started the business in 2008 filming weddings, so that's what I

could do while I was still kind of picking up some teaching work on the side. And that became relatively successful to a point where I could quit my side job and focus on weddings full-time. And after about six or seven years of dedicating myself 100% to weddings and building a small team around me to do that, I kind of had enough with weddings. We had our first child and didn't want to work on weekends anymore so pivoted into corporate video production and I think it's a pretty common story in our industry. So started getting more work with corporates and commercial work around

our local area and haven't looked back really. So that was, yeah, it's been 15, 16 years of that journey and, you know, there's been lots of ups and downs along the way and, you know, started new brands and released a whole bunch of different stuff that we can talk about. But that's effectively what we do. So Innovate Media is a video strategy and production agency here on the Sunshine Coast and we help clients all around Australia, most of them within our state of Queensland, but we do, we work with clients all around the country as well. And I've got a team of there's four of us on the team.

So myself and three others. And yeah, so that's pretty much us. That's the way it's looked in this business for, I'd say the last five years, that's pretty much what we've looked like in the business. And that's just Innovate. You also have, he's got two other things. He's got podcasts, so he's a fellow podcaster, and also the video marketing agencies. So do you want to tell us a little bit about those two?

Yeah, sure. So look, back in around 2016, I think, roughly, I kind of realised that I needed to create a new brand around what I was doing. So at that stage in around 2016, I was starting to kind of be a bit more active building a bit of a personal brand, kind of by accident in a way, around sharing content that I was doing with our clients around the idea of video strategy. I'll tell you the story about what led me into that in a moment. Basically, as I was sharing more of this content and other video producers in my network around

Australia were asking me questions about how are you doing that, what are you doing, can you tell me more about that? Because I was an avid podcast listener, I decided to put it into a podcast and start interviewing other people around this world of digital marketing and strategy and marketing strategy, and video strategy as well. And so I launched the Engage Video Marketing Podcast

and kind of built with that the brand Engage Video Marketing. And that's become now the home for my coaching and mentoring that I do, the Video Strategist Masterclass, which is a course that I've been putting out into the world over the last five, six years. And now my book, which is also called Engage, which is the definitive guide to video strategy for business, which came out at the start of this year. So all of that's under the kind of banner of Engage Video Marketing. So yeah, I've kind of got two things going on.

I'm building my agency actively and also kind of putting content out and sharing information around the world of video strategy through the Engage Video Marketing brand. I don't know how you have the time for all of that. It's like, and also with a book, you're also an author as well. Like the list just keeps kind of going on and on and on. Like, how did you kind of stumble into the marketing and the strategy side of things?

Cause obviously you had a very traditional kind of start for a lot of us in this industry where you're basically going into weddings, then circumstances change, then you kind of transition over to corporate video. How did you kind of start sparking that kind of, not only interest in video marketing, but was there any specific need with certain clients

that started to come up more and more often that you kind of wanted to explore further? Like what was that discovery process like? Yeah, it's a good question. And you know, I know for many people listening watching this podcast It's probably the story I'm about to share is something that will probably resonate with them because you know back in around 2015 I was doing corporate video content. I was producing brand videos and testimonials, customer stories for local businesses around our area. And there was one particular client that became that turning point in my business, and I really

attribute it now to catapulting the new direction that we've been on ever since around this focus on video strategy. And at this time, we produced a particular video, it was actually a suite of three videos, like a brand video and two client story type videos for a furniture removalist company here on the Sunshine Coast. And the video was great, we made the video that the client expected. Everyone loved it. We got paid. We patted ourselves on the back,

and then we went off to find a new client to make another video for, right? There's no problems with that, except in this particular instance, around about six months later, I checked back on what the client had actually done with that video that everyone was so proud of at the time. Just being inquisitive, I kind of dug around

on the internet and tried to figure out, well, okay, what have you guys actually done with this video? And all that they had done is uploaded it to the top right corner of their website as a small little embedded YouTube video. And that was it, that was all I could find. And I clicked through to the YouTube watch page from that embedded video and you

can see the views, right? At that time, I remember distinctly noticing it had 34 views. It was like a gut punch for me. It was like 34 views. Clearly, there's no return on that investment. Clearly, the video that we delivered that everyone was really happy with hasn't done what it needed to do. Chances are those 34 views were mostly the team or the owner of the business and his mum watching that video. I realised then that there was something missing, something that wasn't happening with the work that we're doing with our clients. Our clients at that stage were coming to us directly for

video content. They typically weren't working through a larger agency. Because they were coming directly to us to produce a video and we weren't having any conversations with them, which I now refer to as strategic conversations, we weren't having that conversation. We were just talking about what videos they wanted and how we were going to make them and then we would go and make the videos. But because those conversations weren't having that conversation. We were just talking about what videos they wanted and how we're going to make them, and then we would go and make the videos. But because those conversations weren't happening, I felt that there was something missing there. Because the client didn't know,

and we weren't providing that advice, so we were just delivering video content for video content's sake. And that's really the biggest problem, right? So it kind of kicked off for me this self-education, this need to do better for our clients and to figure out digital marketing. I came from a creative and education background, not from a marketing background. I was still figuring out this business thing. I was still figuring out how to actually talk in business terms, right? I definitely didn't know marketing terms and

how to talk in that sort of language. So I realised I needed to educate myself and that kind of kicked off that journey over the next few years of not only educating but also then sharing what we're doing and it became the backbone of what is now engaged video marketing and now everything is in that book as well that I held up before. So that's the story. And as I've shared that story over the years through my podcast and through the coaching and the course,

it's a very common story. I don't know if it's a story that you guys have felt as well. So it happened to us too. Absolutely. The age old challenge in our industry, you know, what happens after you deliver the video and especially if it's a direct to client type situation, that's where it's most common.

Like if you're dealing with clients directly, sometimes, especially small businesses, they don't always know what to do with that content, how to promote it, how to promote themselves, which is usually a big challenge. Yeah, yeah. And especially when you're dealing with clients that are focusing on consumers, right?

It's very different when you're creating content for like B2B clients, right? Because then there are very targeted specific needs of showcasing certain things. So it's not about the views necessarily in those cases, but especially in consumer, like clients that- B2C. B2C, yeah, sorry.

Especially in B2C clients, those are the ones where this is a big challenge and like, we all know what it is, but not every video production company has the tools or the mindset or even the time to kind of like learn that. So how did you then, what were the next steps after that? Like, how did you kind kind of turn it into something as a service or offering that you can scale

or even work within your business? Yeah, that's a good question. And I think just to reflect on the B2C versus B2B, I absolutely see the need in B2B as well because so many businesses are producing video for this, businesses who serve businesses are still producing video without a real strategy behind it and not really knowing where they're going to use it.

And you're right in saying that in B2B, it's often not about views, it's about different metrics to pay attention to, to determine the value of that video. But often those conversations aren't being had even in that B2B space. But to circle back to how I first started integrating this into what we did as a video production company, really for me as I started to learn and understand more about this, the first

step really was bringing it into that sales conversation. So bringing it into those initial inquiries, those initial conversations with the client about potentially working with us. And that's really the best place to start. So if you're a video producer and someone, say, picks up the phone or they send you an inquiry or they contact you in some way and say, we want a video, your response should not be, great, well, what video do you want us to make for you? Or how do you want us to make that? Or something like that. But typically that's the response. It's like, okay cool, well what sort of video are you looking for?

What have you come to us for? But the client often doesn't know. Now sometimes they do, right? Sometimes they do, but your goal is to ask better questions in that scoping call, in that initial conversation. And if you know what questions to ask because you're focused through a strategy first mindset, then you can start to wind it back and say, look, before we start talking about what video you potentially might feel that you need, let's talk about what you actually want to achieve with that video, who you want to reach with those videos, where are you going to distribute those videos. So there are, and I can break it down for videos, where are you going to distribute those videos.

So there are, and I can break it down for you, there are seven elements that I talk about that are effective or that are needed for effective video marketing to take place. And those elements, those things that you need to consider are audience, goals, content, distribution, optimisation, metrics, and then production. So I'll give you a top level overview of each of those. So the first one is audience. So critically, knowing who it is that you need to reach with this content. Who are you selling to, who are you communicating to?

If you don't know clearly, or your client doesn't know clearly who it is that they're talking to or trying to reach, then that's the first flag that you need to sort out with them first. So understand your audience. Number two, understand your goals. This is goal for the video, specifically what do you want that audience to do, think or feel after watching or engaging with that video. But also, how does that align with overarching business goals? So whether it be top of funnel brand awareness, whether it be middle of funnel engagement goals which is mostly just about building a relationship with customers before selling

to them, or bottom of the funnel conversion goals, sales content, which is a different goal. So if you can establish those different goals, then you can be much more specific about how you're going to approach the video strategically. So goals is number two. Number three is content. So when you've decided on the audience and you've got clarity on potentially who the goals or what the goals are, then you need to kind of use that to inform more what's the message, what is the content. This is not like what does the video look like, what type of style of video. This is like what is the overarching

kind of purpose of the video as far as like what's the message you need to communicate. That's the content, right? So from content, then you go into distribution, where are you going to stick this thing online? How are you going to use it, right? Distribution obviously is like specific to like distribution platforms like YouTube. Is it going to use it? Distribution obviously is specific to distribution platforms like YouTube. Is it going to end up on YouTube as a primary distribution platform or Facebook, LinkedIn? Or is it going to be embedded onto a sales page of a website or used within an in-person sales conversation or played at a trade show at an event? There are different distribution channels that need to require different thinking.

And then you go to optimization, which is what you do in and around that video on that distribution channel in order to set it up for success, right? So optimization, then you go into metrics, what metrics or what data are you gonna pay attention to to determine the success of that video or the failure of that video. And then the last element is production, because once you've made strategic decisions around

those previous six elements, that should inform how you go about producing the content, whether it's a big budget cinematic kind of a shoot or whether it should be a smartphone on a gimbal or a live video or a TikTok style production. All of those production considerations should come from strategic decisions that have been made in those previous six elements. So I know that was a bit of a whirlwind kind of a thing. But to circle back to the start of this conversation here is those questions, asking those questions that are framed around those seven elements should be the start to that strategic conversation with the client. So ask them, who is your audience?

Do you know who you're talking to? What do you want this video to achieve? Goals, right? Okay, so what's the core message you want to communicate here to move that person to take the action that you want them to take? What platforms are you considering distributing this on? Where are you going to stick it? What are you going to do on those platforms to make sure that it actually reaches the audience? What's the measure of success for you? What data are we going to look at to know if this is successful? Okay, cool.

Well based on that, this is where you step in as a video producer. You say, this is the style of video I think we should be producing for you. Does that make sense? Oh yeah. You perfectly laid it out in terms of what happens in like the strategy portion of what you need to do for video content. Like as production companies,

we're mainly working in our businesses in that last step of the whole process. You know, those other six steps. It's not really up to us always to do that, technically speaking. We like to think that our clients are coming to us with that. Like, if you look at how it is when you work with an ad agency, for example,

that is where those first six steps are technically already covered by them. Because they've determined what the content is, they've determined how they're gonna distribute it, and then they're coming to you with very, with a very specific brief of like what they're looking for, we need like three videos that do this, this, this, and this, this is the content we're doing this, like it's very straightforward, and that's actually like a good way to even kind of think of it. If you're not able to come up with

a brief from those initial questions when you're talking to a client, then you also won't know what you're producing at the end You basically have to figure out what what you're gonna create, you know, they're just saying like I need a promotional video That's a minute long. It's very broad right You got it You got to think a little bit more strategically and I think you nailed a really good Like a good simple step-by-step process What's your next step after that because those are typically a lot of the information I need when I'm pitching to my clients.

So like in the intro call section, I usually try to get that information out of them because I just need to be able to figure out kind of where their heads at, what their vision is. And then that way I can also see what I can pitch to them in terms of content. So do you take it past that that like in terms of like promoting the content for them? Yeah, so I'll just reflect on Kierle's statement there around working with agencies and this is exactly right. Like if you're taking briefs from agencies, I think you still have the opportunity as a video producer to ask the right questions. And if they're not providing you a brief that there's clarity on those things

that we need to know, right? Then potentially it's the opportunity to push back or ask for that clarity. Because in my experience working with agencies as well, sometimes you don't, there isn't that clarity, right? Sometimes they're just shooting a brief through without having really thought it through. Sometimes there is that opportunity to elevate your role with those agency partners and ask them some of those critical questions.

Just to make sure that, again, the ultimate goal is to make sure that the content you deliver is going to work for them. That's ultimately what we want. Back to Dario's question there. Really there are three things that you need to have in place for video content to be successful. Think of it like a Venn diagram is the way I describe it. You've got the strategy design, which is what we've just talked about in a way, like we simplified it there, but having that strategic plan in place is critical. Someone needs to do that. If the agency's done that, then strategy design tick. If they haven't, then that's what you need to work on with your client.

Even if it's just a brief notes on a page that at least you've asked the questions and got the answers, right? So strategy design is one. And then content production, someone needs to actually make the right content, right? That's typically where we spend our time as video producers. And then in strategy management is the third circle in that Venn diagram. And that's like what actually happens with the content, who does the stuff diagram. And that's what actually happens with the content, who does the stuff with that content, that means it actually reaches the audience

and gets success, right? So strategy design, content production, and strategy management, it's that intersection of that Venn diagram that's the video marketing sweet spot. So as an agency, or for us as a video production agency, we typically focus on content production, right? And if the strategy design component is handled, like someone comes to us with a really clear

brief, then I know and I'm comfortable, I don't need to go very far into working with that client on strategy design. It's good, right? But for all of our clients, typically, again, unless there's a really strong strategy or agency behind it, we will incorporate some sort of strategy management conversation. Often that's a call at the end of production, like we call it a distribution and strategy call.

And it's like, well, now that we've delivered your videos, let me give you some advice about what you can do with that. So we're not taking responsibility, but we're building into our service some kind of off, maybe it's off-boarding sort of conversations of like, okay, project's complete, we've delivered the videos, let me give you some advice as a video strategist about what you do with these videos now that you've got them so that they're maximised for success. So that's in its simplest way where I think someone who's a video producer can start to integrate a strategy first mindset into what they do. It doesn't significantly change the

way you deliver the work that you do, but it does significantly improve the experience for the client so that they know that you care about the outcome of that video and you're doing what you can to set them up for success. Of course, you don't own the success of that, right, when you're doing that. You're giving advice, it's up to them to execute. That's one way, right? The other way that we can... that we do approach this

is we have a number of clients who are on some sort of a retainer or recurring revenue model with us, which we call video strategy partnerships or video content strategy partnerships. How that works is basically we are kind of like their outsourced video marketing department is the way we position that service. What we do is we have, and this is my role in the business as the lead video strategist, I have these monthly calls with them around what is their strategy, right? So we talk about what are their marketing goals, what are they doing as a business right

now, where can video fit within this. We look through that strategic framework that I talked about before. And we have that as ongoing monthly conversations so that we can plan for the next batch of video content that needs to be produced, it's aligned to their strategic goals, right? And then we, with our partnership clients, we then produce the content for them. Or in some cases, we're advising them on content

that they can produce themselves in-house. So, you know, in some cases, we're advising them on content that they can produce themselves in-house. So in some cases, that's the right content production framework to use, where it's DIY or produced in-house. And then we actually manage the distribution. I like that. Exactly, so and then for those clients as well, we either manage or consult with the distribution depending on the capacity of their team. So either we'll publish content on their behalf if they take

us up on that option. So we're kind of managing the video components of their digital strategy or we're advising them on an ongoing basis on what they're doing. And that can be training their team, like looking at, okay, so last week your social media person posted those videos. Awesome, she did a great job, but let's work on like improving some of the ways that she's doing that so that you get more engagement next time you post those, for example. So sometimes it's more of that consultative role. So for a business listening to this who's thinking about becoming more of a strategy first agency, think about how you can integrate that mostly through the lens of how can I just provide a better result, a better experience for my client, and then how can I also add

some sort of layer of monetisation to that so we get paid for that work that we do. So there's no one size fits all, but typically you're going to operate in one of those three areas of strategy design, content production, strategy management. Does that answer the question? Yeah, yeah. I'm curious though, like when you post the content for your clients, are you doing like paid marketing? Are you just like strategically posting it at, you know, certain locations or at certain times. Yeah, we deliberately don't take on paid marketing management or management of

their paid channels. We have a partner agency who we refer to when there's paid spend required. It is a bit of a minefield, right? As you're probably aware, like managing ad spends, optimising ad accounts and tweaking, all of that sort of ongoing management of paid channels requires a lot more. And we deliberately don't want to get into that because we don't want to become the experts in that, right?

So that's where we'll still be that strategic advisor, we'll still be kind of being that connection between the paid agency that we typically work with and the client. But it's up to the client and that paid agency to manage that ad spend and that sort of relationship. So that's a decision we made to kind of step out of that and not to be that I guess you'd call it a full service agency that kind of does everything. So I feel like the danger there is full service agencies tend to be, you know, master or jack of all trades master. What I like about what you do though is that, because I thought going into this call that you do like, you handled like the paid marketing channels or the paid campaigns as well. And that would have been something that is,

you do need to become like a full service agency to do that, but the way you do it, it's something that any type of video production company can easily apply to their overall business know, overall business, right? That's what I like about it. It's pretty, it's pretty easy thing to start adding to your thing. You're just basically advising your clients and just adding a little bit more strategy, a little bit more thought into the content you're creating for them. You're elevating the experience essentially at that point.

And like, yeah, I may not necessarily be like easy for everyone, but it is like something that you can start. Every video production company should start doing to elevate the experience. You know, you don't wanna just be like, all right, what do you want? Okay, here it is, bye-bye. You know, you don't, you don't,

it doesn't show clients that you care. So like trying to find other ways like this to help show them that you want them to succeed, you know, just beyond just the content that you've created for them is definitely, is definitely something everyone needs to consider. But maybe I was also, I don't know if I got it right as well, but like, do you have it like as two separate entities, like in terms of companies, or is it like all integrated together under one company necessarily under innovate media

Yeah, the work we do for clients is all under innovate media So our clients typically probably unless they see some Social media posts under the kind of brand name of engaged video marketing the engaged video marketing brand is is more Around you know that education to other video producers and other business owners. So kind of teaching them this idea that we're talking about here, video strategy. So yeah, for all of our clients, our agency clients,

it's Innovate Media, so that's how we operate. That's what I wanted to just clarify for the audience as well, just to distinguish what each one is for, just so that it's not like, oh, it's kind of like doing both businesses with the clients. Yeah. I mean, to be honest with the personal brand, I honestly don't even know why I didn't just go with Ben Amos personal brand, right? Because ultimately it is me and that idea of building a personal brand and then monetizing that through speaking courses, coaching, consulting.

You know, there's a lot of value in it just being based on your name, right? But for some reason, I don't know whether it was imposter syndrome or something, I thought it needs a brand, it needs something around it. So yeah, but that's ultimately it is engaged video marketing is just me, right? It's just my little personal brand. Going back to the strategy part of it. So you're doing it during your intro call, I'm assuming to get that information out of them.

And then you mentioned also during the off boarding. Are there any other points where you're really doing deeper dives into the strategy? Yeah, yeah, 100%. So depending on that intro call and the type of client and their needs that are perceived from those initial strategy conversations that we have. And we're not charging at that stage either.

That's that kind of sales conversation, right? That's that inquiry or scoping phase of the relationship. But for certain clients, and increasingly for more of our clients as we work with larger organisations, typically what comes out there, if they haven't worked, if they're not working with another brand agency or communications agency or a bigger agency, then there's usually a lot of gaps that we're discovering there. And so often what we'll do is direct them towards doing a video strategy workshop with us.

This is a half-day workshop that we offer, so usually three to four hours. We actually sit down with the team and go through a much deeper dive process of unpacking what is the video strategy that we advise they think about here. And the result of that half day workshop is a documented video strategy plan or roadmap, we call it, and effectively it lays out 12 months of the recommended actions that they take. And then that feeds into basically the plan that they can either choose to work with us on executing and come on board on a partnership model or they can pick something that they

need right now and we can just start with that. But we monetise that so we charge for that between $1 between 1200 and about $2,000 Australian for that workshop and Yeah, basically for certain clients that makes sense for smaller businesses That doesn't make sense so we just keep it to like the more top surface level strategic conversations to make sure that the videos we End up, you pitching, quoting on and delivering are right for them.

So it depends on the client. What's the majority of your client base? Is it a lot of B2B or B2C? We do a lot of, it's quite a mix actually. So we do a lot of work in health and in professional services specifically, but we also have a range of other clients as well. So typically, you know, professional services like our law firm clients, you know, would be a mixture of B2B and B2C.

So they're working in commercial law and also personal law. So it's kind of a bit of mixed bag. We've got health clients like physiotherapy clients and surgeons and ophthalmologists, eye doctors, eye surgeons and things. So typically they're B to C. It's a pretty mixed bag, but definitely there are different approaches to take, whether it's B2B or B2C. But I think that's the fun, right, of looking at things through a strategic lens is you can actually think critically about what is the right solution here. I think one of the biggest bug bears I have with our industry is when it seems to me that video producers or videographers will just kind of apply one shoe fits all kind of approaches. It's like I love doing corporate storytelling

or something like that. That's our bread and butter. We love telling these emotive stories. So then they basically try and fit every client into that's the type of video that they're going to do for them. And sometimes that's not the right video for a client. Sometimes that's not what they actually need. Sometimes they do need the less sexy, potentially boring sales video that just goes on a landing page next to a buy now button. They don't need a cinematic story there.

They just need something that addresses the rational objections that someone's got to buying that thing. So yeah, I think if you're looking at it through a strategy first mindset, then you can deliver a whole range of different solutions for your clients. And that makes it interesting for me. Nice. Yeah, it's definitely a good way to go about it. I'm wondering what about when, like, have you ever had like leads or clients that just

go like, I don't know the answers to these questions and they like, what do you do in that type of situation where they just don't know and it's like, maybe it's time sensitive. You just kind of like push through and go like, we'll figure it out as we go. Yeah, I mean, it happens quite a lot that they don't know the answers to the questions. Yeah, but they usually recognize, they usually recognize that they're good questions to ask, though. And sometimes when it is time sensitive, you need to just get something done, right. But by asking those questions, you

usually get clearer than you did if you didn't ask those questions, right. So it could be, for example, that they don't really know, well, they usually know the audience. Normally with a little bit of digging, you can kind of unpack, well, tell me about one of your clients that you really love working with. Okay, well, let's just say that's the audience for this video, okay?

So you can usually get clearer on the audience. Usually with a bit of advice, you can kind of steer them in the direction of what's the goal for this video? Like where does it fit within their customer journey ultimately, right? Where is it gonna be used? Distribution, if they don't know the answer

to where are they gonna use it, then that's where you can step up as a video strategist and say, well, this is where I think you should post this video. This is the channels that I think would make sense based on your audience and what I know of the kinds of content that resonate and work on that sort of platform. So here's your distribution channel that I suggest. Optimization, that's where you can figure things out and add that value to your clients. If we're going to post content on YouTube,

then we're gonna put a bit of thought with you and work with you on the thumbnail, on the title of the video. We're not just going to slap it up and call it brand video zero one version two as the title on YouTube, right? We're going to actually put some strategic thought into the title and the thumbnail

that catches attention. And you as a video producer can kind of help them understand the importance of the hook for platforms where those initial seconds are critical, right? That's the optimization element kind of a play there. So you can start to, you can advise them if they don't know the answers, right? But by asking the questions, you can unpack whether they do know the answers.

And if they don't, then that's where you can step up as a video strategist. And one thing to add to that also is that when they don't, if clients don't know the answers to a lot of these questions, that sometimes even tells you what kind of videos they actually might need at all actually even, right? If they don't know where they're kind of like pushing stuff or like another question that we've asked before is like,

have you done video content before? Like, is this your first time? Because that also gives you a sense of, you know, if they're completely new to this whole thing, you know, then you can immediately understand that sometimes when, if they haven't done any video content before and they're just kind of getting their feet wet, then you know that you can come up with some very standard stuff that they might need for their website, for landing pages and YouTube channels

and social media. So at the very least you know where you can start right? And you know as more questions and answers kind of come up over time then you can figure out what else you can provide them, right? Yeah, 100%. So in the Video Strategist Masterclass, one of the kind of frameworks or processes I share there that we use with our clients is called conducting a marketing needs analysis, right? So basically, this is like a marketing gaps analysis.

And it's based on a specific series of 15 questions that we share with our clients as a survey before that initial video strategy conversation. So not in that initial scoping kind of conversation, but if they're going to go in a deeper video strategy conversation with us, then we send that survey through first. So those 15 questions are based around unpacking where the gaps are in their current customer journey. So questions around awareness, right? So how aware are people of your brand and what you sell? Of those that are aware of your brand, like how connected are they to you and your business? So questions like that that unpack,

as we get down the bottom of the funnel, specific questions like if you make an offer to your client through a social media post or an email campaign, how likely are they to buy? How ready are they to buy? So specific questions that depending on their ranking between one, which is really bad, and 10, which is we really bad, and 10, which is, you know, we're really good at this,

you can start to get this like map really of where the gaps are in their current sales and marketing conversations. So for some brands, for example, like brand new business, they're gonna rank poorly on all of that, right? They're gonna be like, no one knows about us. We don't have any like kind of connection with our customers online. We're pretty bad at selling, we don't sell much stuff.

So you know, well, okay, potentially we can put video in all of those stages of the customer journey, right? So typically where we'd start there is go, well, first we need to build awareness, right? We need to create some content that's going to get your brand, your name out in front of people, right? So probably that's where you'd recommend they start. For other businesses, particularly more established businesses that we tend to work with,

they're actually pretty good at the sales. So if they can get a qualified, engaged prospect to pick up the phone or make an inquiry, they can sell. Their conversion rate's pretty high, so you can ask these sorts of questions. If that's the case, then your goal is not on converting more. It's not sales type content. Your goal is just creating video content that gets their brand in front of more people to

build more engagement. And then conversely, the other thing that tends to happen is we might have brands that are really well known and they get a lot of inquiry, but when you ask the right questions, it's revealed that, you know, the fact is we're actually not converting many of those. Like we, our sales team are having trouble making the sales. Then you go, right, well we need to be delivering some sales content, you know, some video tools that your sales team or your, whoever does the sales or if it's not people doing the sales, you know your websites or your landing pages need to be better converting content

So yeah, you just got to ask the right questions Yeah, let's go and talk about Retainers because you're one of the few people that seems to have gotten it, right? So tell us a little bit about how yours work and how you're able to get it to work Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if we've gotten it right I think it's still something we're always working on right because I think we seem to have gotten it right for certain types of businesses to be honest with you so certain types of businesses it really works well and to be honest certain types of leadership

within those businesses so they need to I think for a retainer to work well and for that sort of model where they see us, like I said before, is like their outsourced video marketing department. They need to kind of know their limitations and they need to see the value in what we're delivering for them over a longer period of time. So we certainly have a bunch of clients that we've had on retainer over a long period of time that that's how they see us. We've also had other clients that kind of think they're going into a retainer over a long period of time that that's how they see us. We've also had other clients that kind of think they're going into a retainer basically thinking that they're kind of tackling it like a project-based work, but just spreading it out over monthly payments. And we try and kind of educate them into that's not what this is about, that's not how this

works, but sometimes that's where we end up and then that becomes a problem, right? So we end up with issues of like having a service debt over our head where certain things that we need to deliver each month for them, they've been pushing back, they've been delaying, they've been telling us, we haven't got time this month, let's just push it back to next month and then all of a sudden we've got three or four months worth of delays. We've been charging them every three or four months and then it's like, well, now we've got to catch up, right? That's not a good situation.

So we've had those mistakes. We've been in those situations. But where it does work well, you know, not to be all doom and gloom about retainers is where we have that strategic relationship really solid with the client. So they prioritise and they value those monthly calls because we're giving them clear direction on things that are going to help them grow their business and we're listening and getting feedback from them on what's worked from the last batch of content that we've done. And then we have a system in place and they've got the capacity within

their team to do what we need on their end. So to coordinate, you know, any shooting that we need to do and not cause lots of delays there. Or for certain clients as well where we can build in the ability to produce content without needing the client to be on board. So I'll give you an example of that that's worked really well for us in the past. It's an accommodation provider like a holiday resort here on the Sunshine Coast. So they have a need for good, engaging, beautiful visuals content being released regularly through their social media.

They've got a really good social media marketing freelancer who works with them on all of their social posting. So we kind of partner in and pigeonhole in with what she does. She doesn't do video though. So we kind of give her consistent, regular new video content that's aligned with the strategic goals for the business and it works really well. In that case, what we do is we just schedule in periodic basically B-roll shoots where we go out, sometimes we have talent out on the location with them and we just produce

a whole bunch of content that builds a stock library of video footage for that accommodation provider and then we edit those into social media content on an ongoing basis with different stories, different angles, different value added pieces there. And that works really well because it kind of doesn't need the client each month to be like, okay, are you available for a shoot on this particular day and can you get your CEO to write a script and things like that. So that kind of thing works well.

Another client that works well for us is where we have a rolling schedule of we do a video podcast for them one month and we do a batch of reels type content for them another month. And that works well for basically building out this social engagement stage of their marketing content plan. So by doing that we've got enough lead time to plan for every two months doing a batch of video podcast recording. So we usually do four to six episodes in that day of filming, half a day, half a day to a day. And then the next month we come in and we have one or two

of their team who are planned and ready to bash out some reels to camera, right, some education type reels. So that's a law firm that works well for. But they've got a good, we've got a good system there, it rolls on really well. So it can work really well when you've got, you build your retainer around the idea of some sort of ongoing strategic advice,

like some, like be the video strategist they need you to be to give them that guidance, monthly calls, whatever that may be. And then some sort of content production schedule that is repeatable, isn't overly reliant on getting a lot of ducks lined up on the client's end because that is a real danger zone. And something that you can, like a content type

that you can deliver that they need on a regular consistent basis, like good social content marketing, right? Podcasts, reels, you know, engaging social media content. Maybe it's ads content as well. We have another client that is a pretty major e-commerce player and they have their own ad buyer within their team, but they need a regular cycle

of fresh new ads content. So we do a whole bunch of ads content and monthly shoots for them. And that's a good retainer as well. So yeah, there's danger zones, but there's certainly success possible in that business model. Yeah. So it seems like it's not something you can apply universally

to a lot of different types of clients. It's very, very specific. And even then, within those specific clients, it's still hyper specific to specific ones in there. Yeah, not that we've. You pretty much highlighted it. You highlighted it perfectly where it's like, everyone's thinking like, what kinds of businesses

do I need to target to do retainers? But you nailed it right on the head where it's like, everyone's thinking like, what kinds of businesses do I need to target to do retainers? But you nailed it right on the head where it's like, it's not just the right businesses that you need to target, but you have to luck out where it has the right kind of leadership that can actually understand why that's so valuable and know why they need to kind of do it. They have to have already a mindset of that's important. If you go to someone who doesn't value it right out the gate, it's going to be so hard to convert them into doing that. Like anytime you're dealing with new clients, like they want to do, you know, one-off projects, you know, just to begin and then see kind of where it goes.

And yeah, like as Dario mentioned, like from, we've talked about this many, like a few times on the show and it's very few times where retainer models work for clients and I think if you're doing kind of like more like consistent content like you are doing and you know, you have like the strategy in place where you're actually helping them, helping see what works and what doesn't work. Like everyone thinks that, you know, retainer models are just,

you're gonna create the same type of video every single month without changing anything, right? And that's not how that works. Like you have to be able to be like, all right, this is how we'll start and then we can see what works for you and then we can evolve it from there. You have to work very closely with the leadership team

to see how it will be applied, right? Yeah, and it should be something that's adapted, right? Because, you know, for a physiotherapy client that we've got, who, when we started out on Retainer with them, the initial goals that we identified or the gaps in their current customer journey was not like brand awareness, top of funnel sort of marketing content.

What they needed was they were getting a lot of referrals into their clinic, but they were the wrong sort of referrals. So they needed some sort of new client onboarding video series that pre-qualified who was right fit for them to work in their physiotherapy clinic. So now, and their admin team was spending a lot of time like kind of fielding the same questions from people that weren't the right fit, right? So, you know, because they, this physio,

they do very complex cases. They don't like do like knee injuries, right? So you don't come to them with a knee injury from a sporting thing on the weekend, but they were getting those sorts of calls all the time. So, you know, both on their website, you know, next to their contact us button and also through their admin team were able to send out videos, you know, in that first point of inquiry that basically pre-qualified whether or not they were right. But that's not where we left it.

We started there and then we moved on to some content to get their social channels engagement up and then we started to integrate some video content into some of their specific services on their product page, their services page so that people better understood what they did. Then we kind of created a brand video for them and now we're focused on some content around a new business model that they're delivering. So it's this ongoing cycle of all you know what makes sense for us to assist you with next and it works really well. So you definitely need to to be in a retainer you need to

be that strategic advisor for them. You can't just be sit back order taker of like cool what videos will we do next? Or will we just do the same as what we did last month? Excellent, let's do it again. That's not the way it works. That's a great point because a lot of the times when people think of retainers, it's like, okay, I'm gonna go in and do these specific videos.

Might be the same thing on a monthly basis, but I like how you looked at it where you also applied your strategic mindset to it and you said, all right, that particular client needed contact form videos, you did that, okay, what else can we focus on in their business where they might need video content and you just tackled it like that.

So that's a really interesting way of looking at it because I haven't heard that before. So, the approach. Solving different needs, essentially, you know, like once you've solved one, okay, now that you have that, what's the next thing that you need solved, you know, that's how I guess the only type of client would be if you're working for a podcaster, you know, maybe then you're creating the same content. Look, it's kind of, for me, it's kind of like, you know, you think about if you go to a doctor, right? You go to your GP, you go to your doctor.

And if every time you went to the doctor, they just wrote your prescription for, I don't know, antidepressants and sent you on your way, it wouldn't be a very good doctor, right? So you come in for a knee injury and he's like, yeah, it's from antidepressants. Off you go. Right? So look, in the medical industry prescription without diagnosis is malpractice. But why isn't that the case here in marketing? If we're just prescribing the same thing

to every client or every problem that they have, then that's malpractice. So we can't do that. We need to listen, we need to think, we need to apply the we need to think, we need to apply the right solution to the problem that they are currently facing or that they have in their business.

And that's where ongoing long-term success happens. Thank God we can't get sued for malpractice. Well, I don't think we can. They don't phrase it like that in our industry. It's like, oh, it's, no, I know. Can you imagine? It it like that in our industry. It's like, oh, it's no, I know. It's just the matter. Can you imagine?

It's like that the video didn't make millions of dollars. We need an explainer video. I'm suing you. Or it's like what you recommended us didn't generate millions of dollars. That's malpractice. Well, fortunately, I don't think we are exposed like that. Although I was just looking at my professional indemnity insurance

and I was like, does that cover me for that sort of stuff? But no, it's not an issue. It's all good. That's a whole other podcast right there. I am not a lawyer. Do not ask me that. You know that the retainer client you mentioned where they kept delaying stuff? How did that end up getting resolved?

Like what happened in that situation? Yeah, look, in that case, we ended up basically needing to fire that client. So, well, not fire the client, that's a bit harsh. We basically said, look, we need to wrap up this retainer. We can't keep operating like this. So we still had that service debt over our head, which is a bit of a pain in the butt basically. So, you know, effectively there was three months worth

of content by the time we stopped monthly invoicing that hadn't been delivered. And we ended up just like they moved on and in that case we ended up delivering some additional content but we ended up winning in the end to be honest. So they ended up paying for more than they got but they're happy they've moved on. So look, that client has come back to us for a project-based job. So it's not that it was bad blood. It's not that they were like, you didn't...

The wrong fit. You do the right things by us. They absolutely took ownership. They said, I know we've had so much going on. Our marketing person left, and then we had this like big international thing. And you know, they had all the excuses. And they're like, okay, we kind of realised

that this retainer thing isn't working for us. Let's end it. Not for that. Well we suggested we end it. They said yeah okay that makes sense. But they've come back, we've done another just project with them as a one off kind of thing.

So yeah they're still a good client. They just didn't retain it and fit them. Yeah. We thought it did. Sometimes people are curious about it and they wanna try things out, which is normal, right? Like they probably haven't heard of that kind of approach for content creation and they wanted to try it out, but then marketing goals shift,

either marketing goals shift or sometimes other things take more precedent and priority because that's what we've noticed sometimes with even project-based or single project videos where, you know, like they initially, we produce the video, we send them a draft, but then they're taking a little bit longer with the revisions and, you know, sending us feedback

because, you know, something else came across their plate that's just taking up all their time so that they can't do it, you know, and that's a normal thing with clients. Like even though you can push them back, you know, and everything like that, but sometimes they just get busy and then it's not the right fit for them. But like you said, you realize, you know, retainer-based approach does not work for them. One-off projects, they can handle that because they can maybe plan for it especially, they can plan for it in their schedule and their workload in terms of what they can take on

and then that's it, but the monthly maybe not. Yeah, and the other thing to recognise is sometimes retainers might have a window of time that they make sense and then they don't make sense anymore. So it might be a retainer that you have ongoing for six months or 12 months, but it's not necessarily an ongoing thing. The longest retainer that we've had ongoing now is coming up on four years, which has been a great client to have. The physiotherapy client I talked about before, it's like a year and a half and it looks like

it's still going. There's still a lot that we can do and need to do with those guys. So yeah, but we've also had retainers which we've had for about six months and then we've kind of come to the natural end of what we needed to do. Because sometimes you need to do a certain amount of stuff and then you need to kind of let them go off and Do their business right? They've kind of filled a bunch of the gaps that they needed filling in their marketing and sales with the content that we've provided They don't really need a lot more right now. They just need to keep going right so sometimes there's a natural end to it, too

Yeah, it's a go on you're free there's a natural end to it too. Yeah. It's a go on, you're free. Yeah, exactly. Go, go do your stuff. Makes perfect sense for professionals, like service professionals, like physiotherapists or lawyers. I imagine after a certain point, the only thing you could possibly do is maybe

you don't run ads for them, but I think they also have an actual capacity in terms of the amount of clients they can take. So once they're booked and they can't take anyone else, like it doesn't make sense. They don't need us. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about your video coaching. Yeah, well, thank you.

Look, the main way that I coach with video producers today is one-on-one through what I call a mentorship kind of coaching arrangement. And that's where I really get a lot of personal value as well. So the sweet spot for me is kind of like businesses in that earlier to somewhat developed stage who are looking to get to maybe $500,000, up to a million in turnover or revenue for their business or equivalent wherever, whatever country they're in, right? That's that kind of sweet spot for me, because I find that the biggest barriers

to video producers growing their business usually is not a lack of knowledge, it's a lack of execution, it's a lack of accountability and it's a lack of clarity on direction. And it's something that I've felt a lot in my past as well. So I've placed a lot of priority in mentorship and coaching in my business over the last eight years specifically and invested a lot in coaching and mentorship myself. I have my own mentor or coach that I work with on an ongoing basis as well. And the value that I get from that is that clarity,

that accountability, that direction, that sounding board. I have staff and we have our kind of staff meetings and our team kind of planning, but they don't own the business. You know, they don't make the decisions that I make. I don't have a business partner and I don't actually know what that would be like as far as like having someone else to kind of bounce ideas

off that grow the business. So I value that accountability that another person provides. So that's what I provide to others. I have a handful of clients that I coach with at this stage. And like we said before, there's a lot going on in my world as well. So my plan is not to build out that I've got heaps of coaching clients that take a lot of my time. Like, I just need the right sort of fit people. They tend to come to me. And when we have those initial conversations,

they know we're a right fit. And if we're a right fit, then we set up an arrangement. If not, then there are other ways that I support people as well through the Video Strategist Masterclass, which is teaching that idea of video strategy to video producers. And the book, if you just to spend 20 bucks or whatever it is on Amazon the book gives you got everything you might need and that's the engage the

definitive guide to video strategy for business so there's my little plug nice yeah that's awesome I don't know how you have time for everything to be honest with you. Like I'm struggling right now with all the stuff we have going on. That's amazing. It's like, yeah, like especially with all that, like to take the time to actually write a book even, I can't imagine the amount of time that goes into just that. Yeah, it was three years of pain. Oh my God. There you go. If any other video production professional wants to go into that route, take note. It takes three years at least to do it right.

Not fast to do it right. It's a bloody good feeling though to have a book. I mean it was a bucket list item for me, right? And so I don't know if I wrote it as much for me as I wanted to be a published author, I wanted to have that kind of ticked off my bucket list. But you know, certainly as it's got out into the world and you know, people are writing back and saying, you know, I got your book and you know, it's changed the way I think about this and we're implementing that. And I mean, that's validation. I love that. So only released the book in January. So, you know, there's a lot more people

that need to get this book in their hands. So yeah, hopefully someone listening, watching this podcast might, might wanna pick up a copy of the book. And if you do reach out to me and let me know you did as well. I'd appreciate that. Are you gonna give them a discount code? I don't think I can through Amazon.

There's a love code, you know, like an appreciation code. Type in creators, you have coffee, you get 10% off. Yeah, Amazon doesn't allow that. And Amazon really is the best way to get the book as well. If any listeners are in Australia and they wanna order a copy through my website, engagevideomarketing.com slash book,

then I'll ship it to Australia because the shipping costs are not ridiculous. But if I needed to ship internationally, the shipping's way more than the book costs. So order through Amazon and we'll get it that way. Can we order it here through Amazon as well or is it just Amazon, Australia? Like Amazon, everyone, right? Amazon, everyone. Oh great. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I'm gonna purchase it right after this call. Yeah.

Awesome. Cool. I think that's like a good almost segue to kind of like almost on a high note to end the episode, but like before we kind of signed off, like how did you come up with the name for the business for Innovate Media and I guess also for the book? Well, Innovate Media, I mean mean that's 16 years ago or something.

I don't really remember the conversations that I had, but I know I was just sitting with my wife, well she wasn't my wife at that stage, with my now wife, and we were just kind of bouncing ideas around. And it's interesting, like I don't even know why I decided that I needed the word media in it. I think at that stage, such early days in the world of online business and digital business, that it seemed like it was a media company that I wanted to build, right?

So it was the term new media, which was bounced around a lot. So anyway, so I felt like it needed the word media in there. I don't know why. But yeah, so innovate was, I wanted a nice easy one word that meant something about that was related to what I hope to deliver our clients. And I guess innovation has become a bit of the backbone of what we do as well in the business.

And this world of video production and video marketing is constantly innovating and changing. So we have kind of embodied that, so it's a name, right? We need to do that, you know, like, and that's the one thing in our industry we need to keep remembering to do within our business as well. It's easy to get complacent sometimes within your business. You know, you have to think of different ways

to keep pushing, pushing not only your boundaries, but pushing yourselves as well. And after all this stuff that you've done, after now being a published author, like what are some of your next steps, like what's in the future for you, Ben? Yeah, well thank you.

Look, I've got kind of two core goals or business goals anyway, and one of those is to continue to elevate the role of video strategists globally. It sounds like a big goal, but one of my core missions through my personal brand and through my podcast and my book and my coaching is to build confident video strategists and to have more people recognising the value of what we do as video strategists. And you know I first started using that term video strategist before it was really a term that

anyone was using. I certainly didn't coin the term or come up with the name but when I started using that term hardly anyone was using that term and now it's much more common, but I think it needs to be more common. I think more video producers need to build confidence as video strategists. So I aim to do that through obviously getting the book

out to more people. I love speaking and educating and speaking on stages. So my goal off the back of the book is to do more public speaking. I've been fortunate to be invited to some conferences like Social Media Marketing World over in San Diego a couple of times, do some speaking there, but I'd love to do more international speaking.

And then continue to grow my agency. Like I've been doing this for a while, and I just need to continue to kind of grow this and build this and ideally continue to build systems and processes that mean it operates more without me. And already there's a lot in my business which means I don't need to do a lot in the day to day grind. The team does most of that, which is awesome.

But I'm not at the stage where I can step back and take a couple of weeks off and you know everything keeps going in my business. So you know, I can keep going with that and yeah maybe one day retire on a beach somewhere but the beach is just down the road for us as we live on the beach. I was gonna say, you work on the beach technically already, you're living the dream. So yeah that's it, that. That's my goals. That's where I'm going. Who knows how I'm going to get there, but one foot in front of the other. It's a slow burn. Got to keep grinding. All right. So let's, I think that's a good point to end it off. Go ahead and do your plugs then I guess. So where can people find Innovative Media, Engage Video Marketing,

the book? Yeah. Everything's at engagevideomarketing.com that's relevant to what we talked about here today. So the book, you can go to engagedvideomarketing.com slash book and there's a button there to link out to Amazon, but you can obviously just search, find that in your local market. And if you're interested in any other support in any other way, for example, mentorship and things like that, best things really

just to reach out to me. So you can email ben at engagevideomarketing.com. Love having conversations with other video producers, doing cool stuff in their business all around the world. In fact, that's one of the things that's really fired me up as I've been publicly just putting myself out there through the podcast is the conversations I get to have with people like you guys who are just doing cool stuff in their business and whether they need help

or not. I just love connecting with people. Nice. And for your website, is it that.au or yeah, so it's.com? .com for engagevideomarketing.com. If you wanna check out the innovatemedia.com.au, that's the Australian agency serving Australian clients. So yeah, there's the two websites there.

What about your social media, what are your handles? Engage underscore Ben on Instagram. So I'm relatively active on Instagram. I haven't opened Facebook in probably the last two weeks. And even then I just open it you know and then shut it down with a shiver. It's an old habit. Yeah, I know. But LinkedIn as well. Active on LinkedIn. So just search Ben Amos. You'll find me on LinkedIn probably.

And yeah, so LinkedIn and Instagram. Amazing. Nice. Well, thanks, Ben, for joining us. This was a great conversation and thanks for sharing. Yeah, it's been fun. Thanks, guys. Thanks for listening to this episode of Creative Scrap Coffee. Yeah, it's been fun. Thanks guys.

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