Creatives Grab Coffee - Scaling Your Business (Ft. MatchPoint Studio) | Creatives Grab Coffee 65

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

In this conversation, Tyler Mose from MatchPoint Studio discusses the challenges of scaling a small business and the importance of sales in sustaining and growing a company. He shares his experience in finding and training salespeople, as well as the need for constant outreach and relationship-building. Tyler also talks about the difficulties of pricing projects and the importance of focusing on higher-margin businesses. The conversation also touches on the challenges of working with videographers and the need for a strong work ethic and attitude in the industry. The conversation covers various topics related to the challenges and realities of working in the video production industry. Tyler Mose shares insights on viral marketing, the difficulty of earning a living as a freelancer, the importance of checking one's ego, and the need to find a balance between creative projects and paying the bills. They also discuss the cost of hiring voiceover artists and the challenges of maintaining profit margins in the business. The conversation concludes with a discussion on work-life integration and the importance of avoiding burnout. Chapters 00:00 Introduction 00:25 The Importance of Sales in Scaling a Business 05:56 The Challenges of Pricing Projects 08:18 Focusing on Higher-Margin Businesses 13:09 Working with Videographers: Attitude and Work Ethic 26:48 The Challenges of Freelancing 27:18 Checking Your Ego in Video Production 29:56 Navigating the Cost of Hiring Voiceover Artists 32:24 Maintaining Profit Margins in the Business 36:53 Work-Life Integration and Avoiding Burnout SPONSORS: Canada Film Equipment: www.CanadaFilmEquipment.com Audio Process: www.Audioprocess.ca Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2vHd8BdbkMQITFZmDJ0bo9 Apple: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/creatives-grab-coffee/id1530864140 Produced by LAPSE PRODUCTIONS – https://www.lapseproductions.com To learn more about the show, visit: https://www.creativesgrabcoffee.com/

Welcome to Creative Scrap Coffee, the podcast on the business of video production. Creative Scrap Coffee is hosted by Dario Nuri and Kirill Lazerov from Labs Productions. Our goal is to share knowledge and experiences from video production professionals around the world. Whether you're a freelancer looking to start your own business or a seasoned business owner aiming to scale your company, this is the show for you. Join us as we develop a community of like-minded creatives looking to learn and help each other grow. Welcome to the business of video production. Welcome to Creatives Grab Coffee. Before we get started with the show, let's go over today's sponsors. Do you have a shoot in Toronto?

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and we're all gonna have a real good time. And now, let's begin the show. Okay guys, welcome to another episode. Today we have Tyler, uh, Mosay? Mos. Mos, from Matchpoint Studio. And Tyler, we were just chatting before we hit the record button. So you were mentioning how big our company is.

We mentioned that it was just Carol and I. And then obviously we scale up and down based on the production. And then you started going into your tangent. So I'm just going to segue back into what we were talking about. Yeah, for sure. I mean, long story short, as far as on that, you know, we're small business owners, service providers,

as far as within the entrepreneurship space. And it's all sales-based. I mean, regardless of like, I think that's one thing like a lot of creatives learn really early on, if they can, you know, stomach it to be frank that, you know, hey, I'm talented, hey, I'm creative, but can I get people to actually buy this

and sustain myself and support myself? And we're basically implementing a strategy here moving forward when we hit a certain revenue number per salesperson with a book of business that they've developed and then a book of business that they're given from previous accounts a book of business that they're given from previous accounts, and then new accounts that we're farming

as far as the current moment, we're just continuing to add salespeople and just stack it and stack it and stack it to scale match point that is. How do you keep adding salespeople? Because I find that's the hardest thing for us is trying to find someone to help us sell ourselves I found that like when we were first starting out

We actually tried bringing on a salesperson, but I feel like the way they were approaching our business wasn't like in the correct I guess like what you had to you had to be in the business to kind of understand how to sell it for sure How do you find those people? Yeah, I mean one salespeople suck I mean salespeople suck but you know also like I Mean name it I could say that I've had a bad experience with you know a plumber an electrician Videographers like it's it's across the board. It's just how it goes like you can't win all the time But we find people that have either

have ad experience or have had experience as far as successfully selling some type of content as far as in the past and then we bring them on give them training and it's tough i mean from the perspective that if you're if you haven't been in production and really understand how to price it out and like the pricing tiers of it. It's a steep learning curve but I mean it's it's not rocket science like you can figure it out but yeah I mean we've gone through multiple sales people throughout the last like number of years so I mean there's not don't get me wrong like we haven't we haven't like created some like specific formula that it's like this is exactly how we're gonna develop a salesperson. I'd say maybe 30 to 40% of them only make it,

but that's how it goes. Yeah, with sales. How many are you at now? We have three total. Okay. Including yours totally. And nice. And how has the turnover been?

Because you said you've gone through quite a few over the last few years, and do you find that, for example, your current other two salespeople, have they been around for a while? Or is it kind of, just recently they jumped on? They just recently jumped on. I did it all myself. So I've been in this business, I'm 40,

I started when I was 18 working for ESPN. I did game day production at my university and quickly found out I don't wanna be in that type of business. Tough business and I'll leave it at that. Respect those people 1000% but I am not trying to, maybe in my early 20s I would have wanted to be in two, three, four cities in a week

and on the road and living out of a suitcase Constantly, but yeah not at this stage. I even like business travel anymore to be frank but anyway, we we have Have had a variety of salespeople that we have groomed throughout the years. Like I said, this is my second agency and video production animation and illustration agency. And some of them have been great. Some of them, like a lot of salespeople come in

are very confident and talk a great game. And then when the road meets the rubber, they're not developing anything or they're not bringing in the dollars because you know how it goes. It's one of those things that like, until the money's in your bank account, checks cash, cleared, all that good stuff. Like's one of those things that like until the money's in your bank account, checks cash,

cleared all that good stuff. Like you kind of just have hopes and dreams at that point. But we have had my senior executive at Matchpoint, Kevin Mallon has been with us for about six months now, has developed a pretty robust pipeline and some pretty extensive clientele as far as for us. He came from another content advertising and marketing space a pretty robust pipeline and some pretty extensive clientele as far as for us. He came from another content advertising and marketing space as far as primarily selling

a variety of white papers and information rich content as far as the companies use for lead generation. And then we have a very junior salesperson, actually my nephew Atticus Stevens, that is helping out as far as with lead generation through a variety of software systems we use as far as to find the correct contacts and then mining our actual network and then reaching out to them through those platforms. So you guys are doing like a lot of cold outreach, huh? We run a lot of campaigns as far as online for lead generation.

We run a lot of SEO campaigns and then we do a ton of campaigns as far as online for lead generation. We run a lot of SEO campaigns and then we do a ton of cold outreach. If you really wanna grow your business, you have to have a sales team. Good luck doing it on your own. In the history of the world, people have done it, but at the same time, you can only do so much. And the situation is, if you're not selling, someone else is taking business from

you and you need to be selling 24-7-365. It's just how it works. That's the part that we have a lot of trouble with is that you need to do the cold outreach and the marketing campaigns and the inbound leads, but there's only so much time in the day. marketing campaigns and like the inbound leads, but there's only so much time in the day, right? Like, so that's the part we struggle with a lot is like trying to find time to focus on everything. Cause even some starting something like a, like a marketing campaign,

there's a lot of development that goes into that. A lot of time and effort and same with something like cold outreach. I think the easiest one is definitely just the inbound leads, but even then you gotta like sit down, reply, schedule the meetings, try to close them. So how do you how would you go about it? If it's just like like us is just Carol and me running our business. What would you what would you recommend for like a company like ours to kind of like be able to make that next move?

You got to start doing it man. I mean we don't really do like cold marketing outreach as far as from the cold marketing outreach like email marketing, a lot of social content. My previous agency, we did a lot of that and like to be frank it worked for the business that we were kind of going after in that space because these people were online constantly and they were on Instagram, they were on Facebook seeing like what we were doing. But the truth is, is like they were shitty clients. Like from the perspective that like they were very low. Low budget? Low budget, yeah. low budget yeah low budget high

production value which is high service low margin low profit bad business to be in like you have to do volume at that point and like I mean I don't want to be in that business that's why the Hollywood people make the most money in this business in the production space because massive margins with it, but You got to start selling one-on-one like reaching out to people Asking for introductions as far as the people that you see other folks are connected to on LinkedIn and then you know Establishing establishing yourself as a resource compared to just like trying to force it down their throats as far as that That compared to just like trying to force it down their throats as far as that, that,

that like, you know, are you going to buy now? No. Okay. Well, you know, kiss my ass. And it's like, okay, like, this is a relationship. You need to start developing it. The biggest thing I see that happens with salespeople is someone says they're interested and they don't follow up. Hey, we're totally interested, we love your work.

When's a good time to follow up with you? Or when would you be interested? Nine months from now, call me in Q4. Okay, in my notebook or in Salesforce, add a task as far as nine months from now, follow up then. Like, it's just, just because you don't get it, get the business right now, doesn't mean you might not get it nine months,

12 months, six years from now. You just have to keep following up. Do you stay in touch with them, like bring them out to meet, like you know, lunches, stuff like that, just to stay top of mind? No, not lunches and things like that. Like just reach out via email via phone

as far as just to check in. I mean we definitely do client lunches here and there. We've done client events. We've rented suites at baseball stadiums and things along those lines. We've done various like parties at our office and things along those lines. Not a lot, but like you know enough to like stay in front of them and let them know that we're relevant and we're in business. The biggest thing is the personal touch as far as with it, face to face as far as with them and building a relationship with them that way. My previous agency, I didn't even finish, we did all this social content and all this email marketing content.

I feel like we were really just stroking the founders, the former co-founders ego the entire time with it, with putting his face out there as far as with it. But it didn't work. It literally didn't work. We had people doing it and we had salaried employees, benefited employees. This doesn't work for the margins that we're going for as far as with this you want to stay relevant on social Maybe some email marketing here and there just to let people know you're still in business because you know these agencies come and go unfortunately fortunately and unfortunately

it Sorry never mind. Hey, I'm already miss what I I gonna say the Sorry, never mind I have already missed what I was gonna say I Wanted to go into like your past a little bit like so used you were You started you started your first agency and then you stopped and you started match point I'm just curious what made you stopped that first one I didn't get along with the former co-founder anymore. He wanted to go full agency and like he was trying to get people on as far as with these like super low like social content packages or monthly retainer

packages and starting at like a thousand dollars a month and I'm just like dude I'm like I'm like we cannot scale a business if we've got like 30 people paying us a thousand dollars a month I'm like when you've got like a half million dollar payroll six hundred thousand dollar payroll as far as with it that's nothing that's like basically you have to make profit on money you can't take money and just move money as far as with it. You need to take money you need to take money and pay for whatever percentage of Service or employee or software and then you need to take a percentage of that and put it in your pocket, too and If you're just moving money and not making money on it,

you're wasting your time. You're spending your money. I figured you guys are making something at least, but it seems like it was just break even now. Well, we were making good money. We were making good money and all. But here's the situation that like you run into with these agencies too, is that like the more services you offer, the more specialists you need to do it and

When you're getting to the point that you're doing like 60 to 70 projects a month It's insane and then a lot like totally and like we had we had people start like like employees start like having like mental problems, and I'm just like having like mental problems and I'm just like and he didn't like he didn't care like I was just like dude like the problem is these people are getting work to the bone as far as within this company and like you don't care because we're just we're just like we scaled like we for sure scaled but like I don't want to brag about working 24-7.

I want to brag about doing large projects and doing less projects, but at a higher profit margin. That's how you can scale these businesses. You cannot be running around, I know there's a thousand YouTubers, probably more than that, talking about how they're making $10,000 a month to do real estate videos. Oh, I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, they don't tell you like, oh, I'm doing 40 projects a month for $250. And like, it's just, you can't scale. That's like, you know, the realtors get to the same point. It's like, you know, do you wanna be in the $200,000

average sale size, or do you wanna be in the 2 million? Do you wanna make a $6,000 profit, or do you wanna make a $60,000 profit, depending on like how you've got it set up? It's just, and usually the larger projects and the larger the larger contract value Take less time. So it's just It's you always want to be in higher margin businesses I don't care like I'll never try to sell candy bars. I'll put it that way

I think I think literally get stuck in in the productizing mindset where it's like yeah businesses that sell a product always end up making more money because you can scale bigger than a service-based business but I think there comes a point where you can't apply that to something like our industry that well because then you get into the problem you were having where it's like you do 60-70 projects but you still need manpower behind each one of those projects it's not like you're selling like a water bottle or it's like okay you just need a couple factory workers and the machines do most of the bulk labor like when it comes to a video and all that it's like yeah

people doing bulk labor not to mention the the fact that a lot of these projects are gonna be, you're gonna be like fighting, it's like a, what is that saying where you're kind of like pricing yourself downward, you know, because then you have to be competitive with other businesses who are providing very similar products, right? So you're always trying to give like as much value

to the client if you're gonna make it a product. But the other problem is, to your point Tyler, is that would you rather be doing, like for example, making $50,000 in revenue but $10,000 profit or making $500,000 revenue but still $10,000 profit, right? It's like scaling does not necessarily mean growing your workload,

it's more so growing the value you create for your business, whatever way that might be. That is the right way to kind of think, the right kind of mindset in terms of how to properly scale business. Like increase the value for your business, not the workload only. Not all revenue is good revenue.

Like not all revenue is good revenue from the perspective of like the time investment in it. Like I have a friend that told me he will not do anything anymore. And he's super successful. He told me he will not do anything that equates to a $5,000 an hour return for him. And I'm just like, you know, good for you. But like, yeah, I was like, good for you. And like, you know, you have to say no to this stuff.

It's like, I can't tell you. And this business is hard because there's always someone that will do this for less money. Like there is always someone, whatever you do, will do this for less money. We had a project we just had to say no to a couple of months ago, And I wanted it for our portfolio because it was a huge name. Like it was a huge brand

name. Like worldwide known like I won't say it but but just for discretion but they kept trying to knock us down on the price with it. And I just said I'm like, you are literally asking for like, not only every member of my team outside of sales, so five total people to be on involved in this project, and you need this from soup to nut. You need creative scripting, production, 2D animation, post-production, and there's going to be 50 rounds of edits probably just based on like legal that you're dealing with. Oh my gosh. Yeah, you deal with

some of these like pharma, med device, like large international entities. It ain't just you and the CMO or the creative director making edits on this. This is going to legal. This is going to CEO. This is going to partners. This is going to individual government entities to review. And they basically wanted us to do this for about 20% of what we initially proposed on it. I was like, how do I make this work? How do I make this work? And then I was just like, no. I'm like, what's going to happen here is what's happened in the past, Tyler. Like, don't be an idiot. Like, what's going to happen is is this is going to drive down your margins,

suck your team's time and energy and drive you nuts. And you're probably going to lose a client out of it because you're going to get annoyed at some point. But that's what bugs me about that is that it's a big client. Like we've had times where it's like a smaller client and we're like, you know what, I would like to add this piece to our portfolio because it will make it easier to pitch like a similar type of product in the future. But then you go

like, okay, it's a smaller client, smaller budget, like, you're a little more understanding. But when it's like a big like triple A client like that, you're like, Yeah, I know you have the money. Like, why are you being this like cheap? You know? Yeah. It's and I mean, that's the thing about it. And like we did this project a couple of days ago that like we walked into these people's office and I was like, I can't believe they were so hard in the negotiations on us. I'm like, wow. I'm like, they've got like every type of protein bar snack and like drink in like three huge fridges. How do you think they explored it? I know by Nicklin

diming their vendors. We had a story we have a story so one time we were doing the gold story. Yeah even I immediately thought of it. So we were doing a project one time. I forget how we got connected. We won't mention the name, but we got connected. It was a contact of mine. It was through an intermediary. It was through an intermediary who works at this big media organization.

So anyways, we got hired to shoot this. It weren't called podcasts at the time. It was called a round table discussion. Yeah, that's the new round table, podcasts are the new round table discussions. Yeah, that's hilarious. So before we film it, we're just talking with the guys and they're part of this mining company and they're showing us like these gold cubes that they had and they just put them on the table.

They just plopped it on the table. Plopped it on the table, we're playing around with them and everything. And I turned around to Carol, I'm like, do you realize, there were like 12 cubes of that. I was like, do you realize like six of those is what we're getting paid for this whole thing? I was like, well, we didn't know. We didn't know.

They said. They should just hand us like six, six of these and it would have been fine, right? And yada yada, we do the project. Months go by like followups. Where's the money? Like blah, blah, blah, blah. And it was only $3,000.

It wasn't that much. It was only $3,000 bucks. It was like one of our first projects, like way back in 2014 when we first started. Anyways, we had to like basically tell them, it's like, look, we're gonna like do a copyright strike on your YouTube video. Then they ended up paying us quickly.

But the irony is that like they had these six gold cubes that were basically their salary. each cube was worth $500 and it was like this big oh yeah they were like tiny they were like less than a centimeter and it was just funny like it's like you could just handed that and yeah they were like so cheap about like paying it's like what's going on here like totally no I hear you and like that's the thing and unfortunately like we could sit here and complain about like client issues. We have played, but complain about contractor issues.

Biggest thing I've had trouble like consistently maintaining in this business are the videographers. Like the actual people that do the onsite production, everybody else, my 2D animator, my 3D animator, copywriters, production director, my production director is rockstar. I don't know how I did this without her for so long as far as before this or before we found her. She's amazing, Courtney Burkett. But the thing too that like this is a very expensive sports play I could say very expensive sport from the perspective of like, you know, we have production vans we have

Gear we have multiple gear sets. It breaks you lose a drone and it's like It's just how it works. So it's like I always I always push back as far as from the perspective of like we're usually showing up with like about $200,000 worth of stuff for anything. Like even if it's even if it's just like, like today we're doing a project as far as with a software development company that across the street so convenient, literally across the street from our office. I was like, man, all right. But the thing is, it's just interview and B-roll, but we're literally showing up with $200,000 worth of stuff to do this.

And the tech gets upgraded quickly. It literally changes so fast. It's like, Red's coming out with a new camera every year, multiple cameras every year. And it's tough. Like it's tough, but like, you know, it's kind of like my grandfather said to me, he said to me, he goes, he was a blue collar entrepreneur. He was just like, you've been in this so long. He was just like, you're not going to do anything else at this point.

He's just like, you're not gonna do anything else at this point he's just like you're like 22 years into this man he's just like you he was like this is what you're doing for the rest of your life and I really do love what I do but sometimes like I'm so blessed to do this but sometimes I'm just like oh my god I'm like can I create a SaaS platform as far as that? Thanks me Hundreds of millions of dollars and I just hang out on the beach with my wife all day long. No No, I'm not gonna be not yet. You mentioned the videographers are tricky for you So what why is that like why you having trouble time with them? You know, I don't know what the situation with the videographers are.

I think that like actual on-site production is a mundane task. Like you're setting stuff up, you're moving like a lot of like weight as far as from the perspective of like, depending on what your setup looks like from, you know, loading up your car, dragging it in there, setting everything up, lighting everything, turning everything on, capturing all footage, breaking it all down, putting it all away, and then repeat as far as on it. There's a big difference between a good shooter

and a mid-level shooter and a beginner as far as with it, and especially how they light, how they conduct themselves as far as on-site. But I don't know, I think a lot of those people, I pay my videographers really well, but I think that a lot of them don't do this business for the money. And that's fine, but at the same time, this is a business, and we're going to treat it like that, and we have to make profit to be able to pay everyone, because I don't just want a $70,000 a month hobby. I mean, nothing against it, but like, you know, not doing that. But I don't know. Like, I don't, that's in this business from an employment perspective. Those are the only people I've ever had a problem with. Like some, because some want to do like...

I'm kind of like, like, so is it because, just to clarify what the issue might be, is it because maybe like they want to Get like a certain creative shot and you're short on time Like is that that type of argument or I think he means that's what I got Yeah, like attitude we do corporate stuff. So it's like yeah It's like you get a lot of these people that want to do like narrative docs or skate videos or like if I had in my Way, we do nothing but snowboarding videos and wakeboarding videos, but like yeah getting paid doing that and like right, uh

Yeah, go go go pro the the greatest like viral marketing I wouldn't even call it viral like consumer marketing like brand in and red bull in history uh But and nike, but uh,, but let's just say athletics brands. But I think that it's a lot of these people want to be the next big thing in production or the next like shooter as far as with it. And like, fact of the matter is, it's really hard to like earn a living in this space like once you you get out and you're a freelancer or an operator or

whatever and Yeah, I think a lot of them want to do these like super creative projects But like you got to pay the bills and you got to keep your lights on Mmm. Yeah, okay Is it kind of like the way they conduct themselves on a corporate set of like maybe an I don't care about this type attitude? Because I've heard of stories of some shooters

being like that sometimes on set. Is that kind of what you've been running into a little bit or is it a little different? Instead of getting into all that, I hope that videographers, aspiring videographers, and current videographers that are maybe watching this can really heed what I'm about to say, which is you gotta check your ego as far as with this,

like that's cool, you're an artist, everybody's an artist. Like I'm an artist from the perspective of an operator, a creative director, and then a salesperson as far as within the creative space. The videographers and shooters are artists in that perspective, the editors are artists in that perspective too, but the client doesn't care. The client wants the end product.

And if you do not want to like sell yourself for what you've deemed short, as far as doing exactly what you want to do, you just need to go through the pain of finding a way to make a living in that specific area instead of selling out per se and like doing corporate content. Because or doing like, I mean, you see all these people do like wedding videos and like we don't do that or little kids birthday videos to like get by and do their thing there as far as with it. But like, if you do not want as a creative, you need to do really what you want to do and like, figure it out. figure it out. Don't like jump on board with some company that you feel like you're just going to be there for 12 months just to get a paycheck and leave. Like go do what you

really want to do. Well said. Well said. Well said. Yeah. I mean it's the truth. Like we all got to do what we want to do. Like I mean I'm 15 years on my own at this point. I'm unemployable. Like I'm literally unemployable. Like I couldn't go back and work for somebody else. Yeah, I mean, if you've been doing it for so long on your own, of course, it doesn't make sense. But yeah, like for anyone who's like jumping into the space,

like if you're also gonna go into it with the mindset of just, it's only a paycheck, also still do a good job though if you're gonna do that, right? Like actually do the work, be part of a team, you know? That's the other thing a lot of people don't realize is it's not always sometimes about the work, it's about like being in the trenches with people, you know? And being with a team because you never know

where those connections can lead down the road. It's like, you know, it's like, hey, remember that really dry corporate shoot that we had to really get through but you know, it was still fun because this and this we did or whatever and then they call you up for some creative project a few years later down the road because they remember you were reliable,

you were great to work with, which is, that is the one thing that a lot of people in this industry need to remember is that be a fun person to work with, or be memorable at least, in a way, but in a good way hopefully. Totally, don't. Yeah, yeah, like, you know, oh, you think that like, the corporate recruitment video you're shooting

is like below you because you wanna do music videos, then don't do the corporate like go do music videos Good luck like yeah, and good luck. You'll be broke My just I always I always joke with like our interns and we get from the art schools and whatnot That say they want to do that I'm always like I'm like I'm like dude you need to realize like a lot of those people doing those music videos We had some guy trying to get us to do we get all these calls every year people like trying to get us to do music videos and I'm like I'm like sorry we don't want to get paid

and all the weed we can smoke and all the all the all the booze we can drink as far as on set I'm just like we're good man so yeah and they're always reaching out like I. We see them once in a while coming through. It's like, hey, we got this cutting edge new song that's coming out. We need a music video for it. It's like, how much do you charge? We were getting that so much at the beginning. Now it's just my inbox is filled with the voiceover actors and just spam from like,

AI. AI spam. is filled with the voiceover actors and like just spam from like I can grow yeah AI spam I can grow your SEO like stuff like that yeah generation lead generation as far as with it I had a voiceover artist call me two days ago totally hilarious he calls me and he poses he's speaking in Donald Trump's voice. And he's like, Tyler, this is President Trump. I'm calling you. We need your assistance for a campaign video that we're looking to create. He was like, we know it's going to be a huge success.

You're very talented. You and the team were absolutely enthralled to potentially be working with you. We need to chat with you. When can you meet and I'm like? And at first I was like this is this this is a robo call and then I hear the dude laugh and I'm like I'm like this is one of my buddies and I was like I was like who is this and he was about actually a voiceover artist and I was like damn

That's actually I can't stand them, but I would take his number down That guy deserves a call Yeah, man, that's wild about like with see that's the thing too is like if you go the contract route in this I mean obviously like I'm not gonna hire somebody like in I mean unless we get a client that we have to hire like a Full-time voiceover artist which I highly doubt will ever happen but Man the costs on that stuff can get pretty wild sometimes especially if you go through some of the dot-coms that are basically like You know voiceover. Yeah like voices voice bunny calm

Some of the other ones as well as far as is calm Yeah, I don't think we've used that one We usually primarily just use voice buddy, but man they jack up those rates of those people like six or seven X It's crazy as far as Yeah, because we found them individually before to like contract them. And yeah, like, and we presented the script because a lot of those, you get a quote from the site,

you don't get a quote from the actual artist within it to start. So like one, this company wanted $6,000 for like a two and a half minute read as far as on this we find the individual artist and I'm like I'm like this is what it is and he was like it's gonna be $750 and I was like Just like bro. That's a life dude. That's a business hack right there So basically use those voices to filter out who you want find those people individually and just hire them

That's a business hack right there. I'm doing that for the next one. I mean, the one we use is voices.com and the difference with that one compared to yours is that you basically post like a job where you set the budget and the rate for it and all the parameters, this is where it's gonna be broadcast, this is how long in perpetuity, yada yada.

We should get in touch with the voiceover act that we're using for our latest project and see what he would actually charge instead of what the website would charge? I think what the website does is they take a 10 or 15% commission off of it, so it's kind of standard stuff. That's why I'm saying Voices is really good because everyone understands how it works there. That's why some of them propose slightly higher rates, just to kind of compensate for those percentages. But yeah, so once we make the job posting,

where we ask people to do a five or 10 second read just so we can hear their voice to hear how it sounds, they all apply and then we just kind of go through, filter them and then choose who we want to hire. And it's actually a really good system that's helps you get access to like a larger talent pool and a reliable platform where you're not just dealing with some random cold outreach person that's like hey sorry if I'm reaching out for the 15th time you know and just tell me if

I'm a way out of left field here. How's that voice bunny said is it the same thing? Probably. I mean, it's probably. I mean, you just go in there and search like male, 30s, baritone voice. Oh, that's more search. Yeah, it's more search.

It's total search on VoiceBunny.com. Oh, OK. Yeah, so that's probably why it's more expensive, because of the back end and the development as far as in the actual site So check out check out voices calm. I think it might be a little easier for you. Okay Especially for simple and smaller type projects because yeah like not not every project can afford not every corporate video can afford a $5,000 voiceover artist when Thousand yeah can afford a $5,000 voiceover artist when the budget is $10,000. Yeah, it's for commercials.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. We'll contract that voiceover artist and then with everything else, like our costs are going to be $7,000 and we'll make $3,000. 30% margins sound good. So I mean, but that's the biggest thing as far as within this space is like, you got to maintain margins. Like we literally will not do anything anymore that, thing as far as within this space is like you got to maintain margins. Like you, we literally will not do anything anymore that, I mean, there's maybe one or two

projects a year that will go below it because I just want them for the portfolio or the relationships or we might go below like 60%. Like we're always trying to keep 60% margins but we have office space. We have a large payroll. We have production vans gear like we have Salaries benefits 401ks like entire entire we have a we have servers like it's a lot of stuff and If we go below that like it basically becomes unprofitable for us as far as at that point. So that 60% would go into all that stuff, right? And paying yours truly too.

Because I'm not just working a pay payroll. Yeah. Right. So technically that's margins on a per project basis rather than margins on total revenue. Per project. I revenue. Or project. I do it for a project. Like if you, cause if you get too grandiose as far as with that, cause I found that out real quickly

in this business, I was like, look at our average deal size because of these like eight to 10 projects a year that jack it way up. And it's like, no dude, like take away those projects and your your average deal size is super small like like very small and so we have to maintain it from a pro or from a per project perspective instead of overall because I've done I've been there I've done that as far as doing it overall and then you keep you keep our revenue's so high.

Like we're averaging a quarter of a million dollars a month, $300,000 a month. Why, why can't I pay myself? And it's like, well, it's because- The expenses. Yeah, you're taking on a ton of shitty projects, dude. Like if you cut out probably 30 to 40 percent of those you would be able to pay yourself nicely but you're just moving money you're not making money

so how big is your team right now so it's you it's three you and two other salespeople and who else is there two shooters animator a production director and then one editor as far as with it. We contract everything else out. Seven, eight people roughly? I think it's eight. Yeah, so it's seven. It's once a contract.

Oh, seven, sorry. Oh, once a contract. She's contract, but I consider her full time as far as at this point. So, but that's another thing. Nobody, at least in the US anyways, you guys are in Canada, in all my entrepreneurship classes in high school and college as far as with it, nobody

talked about employment tax. Nobody talked about unemployment tax. Nobody talked about the cost of benefits and how those continually go up every single year because it's like oh yeah I'm paying this person 75 this person 120 this person 90 okay, it's like no no no no you're actually paying them about 12 to 15 percent more than that so $90,000 employees more like 102 to 105 and then on and on and on as far as with it so it's like your margins get eaten and eaten and eaten and This is how it is it's just not why they don't teach that in in university because I was wondering myself

Okay, why why wouldn't they be teaching? They want you to be an employee? That's why well, that's one two That's one the second thing is they're only teaching you the basics or it's like most of you're not even going to get past making a business plan. So what's the point of teaching you about how to deal with employees? It's not even that, Kiril. They weren't even business people teaching it. They were just people that read about it. People that read about it.

What do they know? What do they know about a struggle and all that stuff? Selling, have you sold anything? Yeah, see that's the thing is like, everybody that tells me that they wanna start their own business, I always tell them like, good luck. Because this is a whole other lifestyle. Like yeah, you can cut out and I don't know, go play golf,, yeah, like you can, you can cut out

and I don't know, go play golf, work out, like whatever you wanna do as far as with it, like some days out of the week, maybe in the afternoon. But I've always believed in work-life integration. Like I'll tell you, like tonight, I have a networking event I have to go to and at Topgolf, pretty excited about that, never been to Topgolf.

But do you know what that is? No? It's like a golf Simulator deal where they've got it's like a bar golf. Oh, they've got a big range. Yeah. Oh, that's cool I've never been you play get you play games at it supposedly we're a big golf team so nice Yeah, Courtney is actually the best golfer on the team. She's like a 15 handicap or something like that. I'm like 26 or something like that. But anyways, and then I have a call at 9 p.m. It's a pre-production call with a surgical group and it's the only time they can do.

They're like they're a startup surgical group that a bunch of doctors left and went out on their own. Couple of surgeons focused on orthopedics. It's the only time they could do it. They're like, dude, we're like building this business. It's just how it goes as far as with it. But I always say to entrepreneurs and then freelancers too, like, you know, controlling your emotional flow in this world is more important than controlling your cash flow as far as at times because it's super challenging. You're literally doing something that has a 95% failure rate and every year you're in business that failure rate goes up. So it's hard.

I thought it goes down. Doesn't go down? It goes up. It goes up. Yeah. Entrepreneurs, a buddy of mine that's a VC told me, he was like, entrepreneurs have basically like a 10-year runway as far as with every business that they start, as far as within it,

because they burn out after 10 years, or they lose interest. How many people do you know that maybe start a nice little business and then try to start another one immediately? And then they've got a couple of businesses that are just breaking even instead of focusing on one ship as far as within. Yeah. So it's it's tough. It is

what it is though. So anyways. Interesting. Oh, on your website, it says that I think I forgot to mention this earlier before our listeners, you guys are based out of Chicago But you're also based out of Indianapolis. We have sub offices in Indianapolis we have We have an office in Indianapolis as far as just a co-working space. We're trying to build out the market down there We're running a ton of paid advertising campaigns and then adword campaigns Same in Lafayette, Indiana as far as they're like, we have physical office space,

but we're trying to build out those markets, but there's just not as much business as far as in those markets compared to Chicago. I'd like to get salespeople down there, but I don't feel comfortable like leaving a salesperson just on their own down there without me kind of, you know, looking over their shoulder the entire time to make sure they're actually doing something because salespeople are notoriously lazy as I'm

sure you all found out. Yeah, yeah, you know what? You know what? You might be right because I technically I do the sales and I do have a struggle with laziness. It's tough man. I'm getting kicked in the face all the time. He's like, yeah, I'm running errands today. Right there. Yeah, running errands. But when we start to sell, we start to sell, you know? Yeah, for sure, for sure.

No one heard me say it. There's a thing to needing sometimes when you do stretches of intense work for a while and then you need just a little bit to yourself just to kind of reset and recharge. I think that's kind of what you were mentioning as well about one of the benefits of working for yourself is that sometimes you need to be able to do that in order to be really productive in the other times as well

because it's like you can't be running on point like 24-7 constantly because you burn out is such a huge thing. And I know some freelancers in our industry here in Toronto that have dealt with burnout and I've heard how it's affected their health in many ways as well. And like you shouldn't be getting to that point because then if it if it starts to affect your health that it also

affects your longevity. Right. Because if you start burning out early, then you're not gonna be ready for the next six months that come after that, you know? You never know when work is just gonna start popping up out of nowhere, like right now June is starting to get crazy on all fronts, so it's like, you have to be ready for that.

Totally, yeah, and you can't mask it with caffeine. Like, that'll work for a while. That'll work for a little while, like you've got to I always say Entrepreneurship without exercise because I work out a ton Is a death sentence like literally so but it's kind of how it goes but fellas I got a run actually we have a shoot Yeah, I have to go right now. It's all good. It's all good. Yeah, no worries. So guys, if you want to find Tyler, you can go to matchpointstudio.com. They're based out of Chicago.

And so Indianapolis is that official? Do you want to push that or? Yeah. I mean, we're one of the highest rated production companies in Indianapolis. So we're. Oh, wow. Okay. Yeah, we have offices in Indianapolis and Lafayette, Indiana.

Nice. Nice, nice. So yeah, if you guys need to reach out to Tyler, whether you want to ask him some questions or you need to get your project done, make sure to reach out to him. And yeah, so Tyler, I know you got to run. So thanks again for coming on the show.

Hey, thanks for having me, fellas. My pleasure. Thanks for listening to this episode of Creative Scrap Coffee. Please make sure to follow and engage with us on Instagram, TikTok, LinkedIn, YouTube, and your favorite podcast app. Creative Scrap Coffee is created by Laps Productions, a video production company based in Toronto, Canada. Creative Scrap Coffee is also sponsored by...

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