Crime, Conspiracy, Cults and Murder - Ep. 29| Children Who Murder

Episode Date: January 1, 2025

In this chilling episode, we dive into shocking cases of murder committed by children....yes, children. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Alright, before we get into a rough subject, I just want to tell you you're looking adorable today. As adorable as a new little... Tell them they look adorable, Rupert. Crime, conspiracy, serial killers, cults, and murder. All things that I love to consume, and I know you do too. You adorable little button-nose, puppy dog, intelligent, little freak. Freak! Today we are talking about some kids, you know, children.

And when you think of children, you just, you think of these innocent little humans just running around, you know, full of snot and dirt and shit. I don't know. But innocent nonetheless. But what you don't expect from them is for them to be enveloped in criminal activity, such as murder. And if you don't think that's possible, well, my lord, you are in for a shock. Because the youngest person to be tried as an adult in U.S. history was only 12. 12 years old. 12, 12 years old. In this video, we're gonna be examining

some of the most notorious cases of child murderers and why people seen as innocent and pure could fall down a path that leads to deaths. So without further ado, let's unbuckle our sleepouts go Mach 5 down the highway, slam on the brakes, and bust through this windshield into this true crime case together. Good job, good job. So the first case, we're going to,

to talk about is the case involving John Vanabless and Robert Thompson. So in 1993, Liverpool became the stage for one of the most shocking crimes in British history. John Vanablus and Robert Thompson, both just 10 years old, committed an act that would horrify the nation and spark intense debates about juvenile justice. And before their infamous crime, these boys led troubled lives marked by instability and behavioral issues. So like I said, Vonoblus and Thompson came from very challenging backgrounds. Both grew up in a working class neighborhood in Liverpool where poverty and social issues were very, very prevalent. Vinoblus in particular had a difficult home life. His parents had separated and he lived with his mother

who struggled with depression and Thompson's family situation was equally complex with reports of domestic violence and neglect. So we're not, we're not starting off on a good foot, you know, if you If you're already naturally a violent and antisocial kid, this environment's not going to help you in the future, or in this case, very soon. And school records and reports from social services indicated early signs of trouble for both boys. The exhibited destructive behavior in class and struggled academically as well, and often engaged in petty crimes such as shoplifting. And teachers would note their tendency to bully other children and their apparent lack of empathy. And despite these red flags, the extent of their potential violence remained unrecognized, which I don't know, maybe it's just because I watch way too much true crime, but if my kid was bullying the other kids or like hurting animals and stuff, you know, straight to the asylum. I'm just kidding. I'd get him to talk to somebody. So on February 12, 1993, the lives of these two boys and their young victim, James Bulger, would intersect in a tragedy that shook the nation. And the day began like any other.

at the New Strand shopping center in Butel, Merseyside. And two-year-old, James was with his mother, who momentarily lost sight of him at the butcher shop. And in those crucial moments, Vanables and Thompson spotted the toddler and made the fateful decision to lure him away. And CCTV footage would actually capture this chilling scene of the two boys,

leading James away by the hand. Anyway, only once were they stopped and challenged by witness, to which they stated James, was just their little brother. And what followed was a prolonged ordeal of unimaginable cruelty. For several hours, Vanabless and Thompson

subjected James to severe physical abuse. And they inflicted 42 separate injuries on the toddler, including devastating head trauma from a 22-pound iron bar. And in a macabre attempt to cover up their tracks, they placed James' body on a nearby railway tracks, hoping to make his body. his death appear as an accident. And the discovery of James Body sent shockwaves

through the community and ignited a massive police investigation. And initially, the perpetrator's identities remained unknown, but the breakthrough came with the analysis of the CCTV footage from the shopping center. The body was discovered on a railway line right next to a police station in Walton, Liverpool, over two miles from where he disappeared. And the grainy images of the two young boys

leading a toddler away became crucial evidence in identifying Vanables and Thompson. It's just such a, like, ugh, off-putting and eerie and heartbreaking photo. Like, I don't know. It just makes me sick to my stomach. Over the next few days, about 60 youngsters were questioned.

Then police were tipped off about two younger boys, truanting from school when James went missing. So when they said 10-year-old boys, you think, oh, well, it's got to be done. Information's come in. so we've got to go and see him and interview. But you weren't expecting that they could possibly be the ones? Oh no, I didn't.

As the investigation progressed, both boys initially denied any involvement in the crime. However, under intense questioning, their stories began to unravel. It was like pulling teeth. Everything was coming slowly. And you had to have a lot of patience to interview a guy. You saw a young boy like that. And the turning point came when Vanobles, overwhelmed by guilt, confessed to the killing and his words were, quote unquote, I did kill him. What about his mom?

Will you tell her I'm sorry? And it just revealed the weight of his actions and hinted at a glimmer of remorse, I guess. And the arrest of two 10-year-old boys for such a heinous crime just sent shockwaves through the British society. Public anger was almost unprecedented. There was a near riot the first time the two appeared in court. And the legal system faced a very unprecedented challenge, how to try children so young for a crime of this magnitude. And despite their age, the decision was made to try Venables and Thompson as adults, a move that would spark intense debate about the juvenile justice system. And the trial would begin November 1993, drawing intense media coverage and public attention. And the courtroom proceedings were a somber affair, with the gravity of the crime contrasting sharply with the youth of the defendants.

The prosecution presented a case that detailed the brutal nature of the murder, while the defense grappled with the task of representing clients who were still children themselves. Like, I don't know, I can't imagine, like, you see murderers on trial, like, you know, 20, 30, 40, 50, 50, 60 years old, and you have, like, no remorse for them, but, like, for a little 10-year-old kid, you're like, were they just confused? Is it something they saw on TV? Like, I don't know even how you justify it, but at the same time, like, they, they, you know. knew what they were doing. I mean, they planned to put him on the tracks to like cover up what they did and they lured him away. Like it was all premeditated. So it's very hard and confusing. And throughout the trial, psychological evaluations of Venables and Thompson painted a complex picture. Experts testified about their troubled backgrounds, potential personality disorders, and the impact of their upbringing on their behavior.

And these assessments raised difficult questions about culpability, rehabilitation, and the nature of evil in children. And the presiding judge in his summary described the crime as, quote, unquote, an act of unparalleled evil and barbarity. And the sentiment just echoed the public's mood and set the tone of the verdict and sentencing. And both Vinobles and Thompson were found guilty of murder and sentenced to be detained, quote unquote, at her majesty's pleasure. The judge said, which is like kind of based. And this intermediate sentence meant that they would serve a minimum of eight years before being considered for release.

And the aftermath of this trial saw continued debate about the appropriate treatment of juvenile offenders. Questions would arise about the effectiveness of rehabilitation programs for young criminals and the balance between punishment and reform. And the case became a touchstone for discussions about the nature of evil, the origins of violent behavior in children, and the responsibility of society in preventing such tragedies. And in 2001, after serving eight years, both Vanables and Thompson were released, under new identities. And this decision was met with controversy and public outcry, naturally. And authorities argued that they were now 18-year-old men and had been rehabilitated and deserved a chance at a new life.

However, many, including James Bulger's family, felt that the punishment had not fit the crime. And the release came with strict conditions at least. Both men were given new identities and relocated to an undisclosed location. And a worldwide injunction was put in place to protect their new identity. entities and a measure deemed necessary due to the high-profile nature of the case and potential threats to their safety, which I understand and it is fair as long as, you know, police are aware of them and they're being monitored. But as we will see, this protection, however, would just prove to be a point of contention in the years to come. And the years following their release have seen divergent paths from Vanables and Thompson.

While Thompson has reportedly not reoffended and maintained a low profile, Vanabla's story has taken a very dark turn. He had been recalled to prison multiple times, primarily for offenses related to child abuse images. And these reoffences have reignited public debate about the efficiency of rehabilitation for certain types of offenders and the long-term consequences of childhood trauma and criminal behavior. In the case of John Vanobles and Robert Thompson continues to cast

a long shadow over discussions of juvenile justice in the UK. And even beyond. And while the Balder case shocked the nation in 1993, an equally disturbing crime had unfolded decades earlier. And that brings us to our next case, which is the case of Mary Bell. In 1968, a young girl's actions would challenge everything society thought they knew about childhood violence.

What could drive an 11-year-old to commit murder not once, but twice? So Mary Bell was born May 26th, 1957 in Northumberland, England, to Betty and supposedly Billy Bell. And her early life was marked by severe neglect and abuse, setting the stage for the troubled child she would become. Mary's mother, a lady of the night, reportedly expressed disdain for her newborn, saying, quote unquote, take that thing away from me, indicating a profound lack of maternal attachment from the very beginning. And the extent of Mary's troubled upbringing became increasingly apparent as she grew older. Her mother attempted to give her away multiple times, subjecting her to both physical and emotional harm. In one particularly alarming incident, Mary was hospitalized after allegedly overdosing on her grandmother's medication,

raising serious concerns about her safety and well-being within her family environment. And her mother would actively ignore family attempts and offers to take Mary into custody. She would just be like, no, even though she hated her daughter, she wanted to keep her, and she would even later allow her clients. She was a lady of the night to do things to her daughter as well, which is horrendous and horrible and fucking atrocious. And these early experiences of neglect and abuse had a profound impact on Mary's psychological and emotional development. The constant rejection and lack of nurturing care likely contributed to her difficulty in forming healthy attachments and understanding empathy.

And this emotional deficit would later manifest in her interactions with others, particularly in her capacity for violence against younger children. And on May 25, 1968, just one day before her 11th birthday, Mary Bell committed her first murder. She would strangle a four-year-old boy named Martin Brown in a derelict house, supposedly with her friend Norma, who was 13. And initially, Martin's death was wrong. ruled an accident due to the presence of an empty bottle of pills found nearby.

And with an autopsy, even ruling out exfixiation. But this misclassification would later be revealed as a cunning attempt by Mary to cover up her crime, demonstrating a level of premeditation and deception unusual for a child her age. Like it's just so sad. And I mean, this is at a time where, you know, like true crime in TikToks and shows aren't a thing at this point. So she, this has to be something she is either seen or experienced to some degree. Because like how, how would she know to do this? So it's just horrible.

And in the aftermath of Martin Brown's death, Mary's behavior took an even more disturbing turn. Mary knocked on Martin's mother's door asking to see him in his coffin, saying quote unquote, Oh, I know he's dead. I want to see him in his coffin. So the morbid fascination and lack of empathy for the victim were clear indicators of Mary's psychological state. And his mother never suspected her, dismissing her as a curious child, who was just being silly. And the girl's involvement in Martin's death became more apparent when they vandalized a local nursery school. And they left behind notes claiming responsibility for the murder with chilling phrases such as, I murder so that I may come back. And we did murder Martin Brown

off, you bastard. And these actions suggested not only a desire for attention, but also a disturbing pride in their violent act. It's just like sickening. She's 11 and 13. Like I don't even understand how this happens. It's insane. And just two months after Martin Brown's murder on July 31st, 1968, Mary would strike again. And this time her victim was three-year-old Brian Howe. And Mary would strangle the boy and she would take it even further this time by mutilating his body with scissors. And the coroner noted that the manner of the attacks suggested the killer was a child due to the lack of force used. A detail that would prove crucial in the investigation.

The body would be found with a weak attempt of being covered by weeds, plants, which would point towards a child's involvement. And I remember standing on this huge concrete block looking down on the body of young Brian. And from where I was standing, I could see that he was covered with long strands of grass and weeds in a poor attempt to try and hide the body.

And as the police investigation progressed, Mary's involvement became increasingly apparent. And during questioning, she provided details about Brian Howe's murder that had not been released to the public, including mentioning the use of scissors and a Gillette razor. And this knowledge led detectives to suspect her of involvement strongly. And initially, Mary attempted to deflect blame onto an imaginary older boy, but her evasive tactics soon began to.

unravel. And throughout the investigation, Mary's behavior during the police investigation was notably calm and evasive. She displayed a striking lack of remorse, which led investigators to believe she was capable of even further violence. The emotional detachment, combined with her knowledge of the crime's details, painted a picture of a child with severe psychological issues. And the breakthrough in the case came when Mary's friend Norma eventually confessed to witnessing Mary Strangle Brian Howe. And this testimony, along with her mounting evidence, led to Mary arrest. And the revelation that an 11-year-old girl was responsible for these brutal killings also sent shot waves through the community and challenged societal perceptions of childhood

innocence once again. And Mary Bell's trial would begin December 1968, drawing significant public attention. And the court proceedings were unique and challenging, giving the defendant's young age and the severity of her crimes. And throughout the child, Mary's demeanor remained very calm and composed, a fact that unsettled many observers. and raised questions about her mental state. And psychiatrists who evaluated Mary during her trial noted that she exhibited psychopathic tendencies. No fucking shit.

And they argued that her troubled upbringing and experiences and abuse had significantly contributed to her violent behavior, which is completely fair. It's like a double-edged sword. There's literally no winning. Did she do something absolutely horrendous and awful? Absolutely. And she should be held accountable for that.

But what her mom did also should be held accountable. Like, she should also be thrown in a dark, deep hole and left to rot, in my opinion. In my opinion. But the psychological assessment played a crucial role in the trial's outcome, and the court's decision to convict Mary of manslaughter rather than murder reflected the complex nature of the case. It acknowledged the impact of her traumatic upbringing on her actions while still holding her accountable for the deaths of Martin Brown and Brian Howe. And Mary would be sentenced and detained at Her Majesty's pleasure, which was, like the last case, an indeterminate sentence that would allow for regular reviews of her progress and potential for

rehabilitation. So Mary Bell would serve 12 years in various juvenile detention centers and prisons before being released in 1980 at the age of 23. And her release was met with controversy and public outcry as well. And the decision to release her spark debates about the effectiveness of rehabilitation for juvenile offenders and the appropriate balance between punishment and reform, very similar to the previous case. And upon her release, Mary was granted anonymity and given a new identity to protect her from potential retaliation and media scrutiny. And this decision was controversial. And in the years following her release, Mary Bell had made efforts to live a quiet life under her new identity. And she largely stayed out of the public eye, though her story has periodically resurfaced in the media. And one of the

most significant developments in her post-release life was her decision to become a mother. In 1984, she gave birth to a daughter. Many questioned whether someone with her history should be allowed to raise a child, while others saw it as a sign of rehabilitation and a capacity for change. And a situation raised complex ethical issues about redemption, second chances, and long-term consequences of childhood crimes. So the story of Mary Bell raised difficult questions about childhood trauma and violence, but what happens when such trauma affects not one child, but two siblings? And that brings us to our next case. Our final. final case, which is Catherine and Curtis Jones, siblings turned killers. The case of Catherine

and Curtis Jones would test the limits of the juvenile justice system and the society's capacity for understanding and forgiveness. So Catherine Jones, who was 13 at the time and her brother Curtis, who was 12 at the time, grew up in a very troubled household in Brevard County, Florida. Their home life was marred by allegations of severe abuse and neglect, creating an environment of dysfunction and fear. The reports would suggest that the siblings endured physical and sensual abuse at the hands of a family member, a trauma that would profoundly shape their actions and future. Catherine would be the first one to say something. She had run away from her home several times at this point. And the second time she did, the Florida Department of Health

and Rehabilitation Services got involved, saying that they could take her away from the home where she was being abused. However, the family didn't believe the claims she was making and her brother Curtis was the only one who believed her story. And that was because the same thing was happening to him. In the report, you know, they said there were indicators of abuse and, um, my brother told me he believed me. And he said, I know it's true because it's happened to me too. Because the children's pleas for help and protection reportedly fell on deaf ears, they felt trapped and desperate. And their father, they claimed, ignored their allegations of abuse. And this perceived betrayal and lack of support from their primary caregiver likely contributed to their,

the growing resentment and anger. And their father's girlfriend, Sonia Nicole Spetz, became a focal point of their anger and frustration. It's possible that in their young minds, warped by trauma and fear, they saw her as an obstacle to their father's attention and a symbol of their ongoing neglect. So on January 6th, 1999,

the simmering tensions in the Jones household reached a tragic boiling point. Catherine and Curtis, driven by complex mix of jealousy, resentment, and a misguided desire for protection formulated a plan to eliminate Spets. And their actions on that day would irrevocably alter the course of their lives and shock the nation. The siblings obtained access to a nine millimeter handgun,

a weapon that would become the instrument of their desperate act. And as evening fell, they put their plan into motion. They knew what was about to happen, but official reports of the event differ slightly from how Catherine would later describe them. And in the interview with Catherine in 2009, Catherine states Curtis was in the kitchen,

while she was sitting at the table. And Spets was in the dining room when Curtis, only 12 years old, opened fire on her first. And Catherine fired the last two shots. And Spitz was hit by four of the nine shots fired, not that the children knew that at the time. And reporting from Tampa Bay 10 on WTSP.com

states that Spitz had been doing a 500 piece jigsaw puzzle and the siblings were sat at the table helping her. And Curtis would be holding his father's handgun in his lap. And amid the shooting, Spets had attempted to make a phone call, but Catherine would seize it from her before she could, taking it back to a different room where it would be out of reach before coming back to deal with the situation that they got themselves into. And in the immediate aftermath of the shooting,

the children attempted to cover up their crime. They would drag the body to the bathtub, leaving a blood trail, which they tried to clean with bleach. And this chilling display of premeditation is kind of haunting considering their young age. And Catherine had even wiped the handgun down to removed fingerprints while Curtis had a mental breakdown as their new reality began to set it. And their efforts to conceal their actions would prove futile. Overwhelmed by the gravity of the whole situation, Catherine and Curtis fled. Initially, they went to Catherine's best friend's house, then to another friend's house, and eventually into the woods, and they would stay there overnight. And their absence raised immediate suspicion, and law enforcement quickly began a search.

On the following morning, police arrested the young fugitives, bringing them in for questioning. And initially, the siblings tried to maintain their fabricated story, claiming the shooting was an accident. However, under the pressure of interrogation, their facade completely crumbled. And they confessed to the plan and murder of spets, revealing the full extent of their actions and motivations behind them. And according to Catherine, both of them claimed they were solely responsible in an attempt to save the other from repercussions. And Catherine had told Curtis to let her take the blame, but he did the opposite. Which is like, I know they'd murdered somebody, but they were. We're also like getting abused and now they're trying to save each other.

Like it's just, it's all heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking. And the arrest of Catherine and Curtis would obviously shock the community. The idea that these children so young could commit such extremely violent acts against one of their parents, no less, was a travesty. And the decision to put these children on trial would make them the youngest individuals in US history to face adult courts for first degree murder charges. It was just absolutely unprecedented. before this. There's an age matrix on Juvenile Compact.org outlining each state's age at which children can be tried as adults. And there's a column, age juvenile case can be transferred to adult

court. And in Florida, it says the minimum age is 14, but both of the Jones siblings were below that, making these untravelled waters. And according to Catherine, in an interview with Florida today, prosecutors initially offered her a deal. She could go home if she betrayed her brother and testified before him. And she refused the deal, which it is kind of sweet. It's kind of sweet. They had each other's backs, which is hard.

I had told my brother, you know, if anything happens, you know, I did it. You didn't have anything to do with it, which he did the complete opposite and took response. It was both of us back and forth. And Catherine's attorney, Kepler Funk, said previous abuse isn't a defense

for first-degree murder in Florida. Quote unquote, the only way we could have presented this was if the kids had, had been in imminent danger and acted in self-defense. We felt Kathy was a kid who still had something to offer in her life and had nothing but bad things going on. She had a horrific start to her life.

And Curtis's attorney, Tony Hernandez, had hoped for manslaughter charge and was heartbroken during his time with the young boy. And Curtis had even asked him if he could bring his Nintendo video game to prison. This case is like different than the other two. The other two were just based off of nothing, but, and I'm not,

I don't think that the stepmom was actually doing anything to the kids, but they were just taking it out on her. They're confused, you know, it's just, it's more childish, if you will, I guess, but still awful that they did that. But ultimately, faced with the possibility of a life sentence if convicted at trial, Catherine and Curtis accepted a plea deal. And they pleaded guilty to second degree murder, resulting in a sentence of 18 years in prison, followed by a lifetime probation. And this outcome, while avoiding the potential, of a life behind bars, still meant that the siblings would spend their formative teenage years and early adulthood in the prison system. And as the years passed, both Catherine and Curtis worked towards rehabilitation and personal growth within the confines of the prison system. And

they engaged in educational programs and therapy, striving to understand and come to terms with their actions and the circumstances that led them to that. And their re-entry into society as adults, having spent their adolescence behind bars, presented unique challenges and opportunities for reflection. Upon Curtis's release, he had chosen a path of faith and services. There's very little information available about his post-prison life, but Wikipedia claims he is an ordained minister. And if that's true, his journey from convicted murderer to spiritual leader offers a compelling narrative of redemption and the potential for positive change, even in the wake of a terrible action. And Catherine Jones post-release has been marked by a commitment to advocacy and mentorship for youth at risk.

in there they helped me cultivate my different teaching and we created a curriculum about who you were in Christ, what yourself I did, what yourself worked, and we were working with other broken women for them to be healed. And Catherine's efforts to use her story as a cautionary tale and a means of preventing similar tragedies just speaks to her personal growth and desire to make amends. And she's very active on Instagram and shares her efforts with anyone who wants to see. She shared that during her incarceration she would actually spend the first three years in solitary because she was so young and they didn't know what to do with a child in an adult prison so they

completely isolated her and during her incarceration that Catherine also explained personal milestones that would shape her future and she married a Navy officer who began writing to her while she was in prison a relationship that offered hope and support as she prepared for a life after release and the two have started a family proving that the connection to the outside world that likely played a significant role in her rehabilitation process and her ability to envision a constructive future beyond her criminal past.

But the case of Catherine and Curtis continues to provoke discussion and debate within the legal and social circles. And it serves as a reminder of the complexities involved in juvenile justice cases, particularly those involving severe trauma and abuse. But this sibling story at least, you know, ends on a bit more of a positive note.

If you enjoyed listening to these cases, I know some of them are rough. I guess enjoyed might not be the right word, but if you found these interesting, maybe give the video a like, let me know what other cases you want me to go over down below or any other subject matter, conspiracies, crime, you know, anything, history, I don't know. I'll go, I'll do anything. I enjoy looking into these things.

Go grab some sour candy at sour dot g-g. You can use code Chris for 10% off. And yeah, until then, I'll see you a beautiful face in the next video. All right. Bye.