Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - 7 Big Moments in Bryan Kohberger's Fight To Move Trial: 'Burn Down The Courthouse'

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. I would say this is probably professionally the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. Brian Koberger back in court for a marathon hearing where he's fighting to move his trial for the murders of four University of Idaho students out of Latah County. It's every day, social media, books have been written, primetime television shows have happened in this case. It just doesn't stop. Prosecutors are fighting back on the request. I have the top moments from the hearing. Your Honor, at the end of the day, these surveys have given the court a factual basis to deny this motion to change venue, and we hope that's what the court decides to do. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:00:55 Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. Brian Koberger wants his quadruple murder trial moved out of Latah County. He says he simply can't get a fair shake there. Koberger's attorneys have said when they conducted a survey of people in Latah County, they found that the jury pool was tainted and biased against Koberger, with one person saying they'd burn down the courthouse if he wasn't found guilty. Koberger is accused of murdering four University of Idaho students, Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Zanna Kernodle, and Ethan Chapin, on November 13th of 2022. Judge John Judge entered a not guilty plea on Koberger's behalf last year. The now former PhD student faces the possibility of the death penalty if he's convicted.

Starting point is 00:01:37 Prosecutors want the trial held in Latah County, and so do the victim's families. The murders happened there in Moscow, in the now demolished home on King Road. Everyone involved in this case concedes that it has had a tremendous amount of media coverage, and it's not just on TV news. It's been all over social media and sites like Reddit and also on YouTube. Moscow is in Latah County, and it's a small county with a population of nearly 41,000 people. And the defense says their survey of the county revealed that most people there believe that Brian Koberger is guilty as charged. You'll hear more on that in just a moment. The defense started the hearing by discussing the

Starting point is 00:02:16 standard for being granted a change of venue. The standard here is whether there's a reasonable likelihood that pretrial publicity has affected the impartiality of prospective jurors. To establish the quantity of pretrial publicity, we will call James Todd Murphy with TrueScope. To establish effect on partiality, we will call Dr. L-Alaili to discuss the social science behind your decision making. Then we will call Dr. Brian Edelman about the survey and what it means. And finally, we will call Dr. Dare about the validity of the survey methodology. We are not calling today Scott Sunbee, but as you listen to testimony today, please keep his sworn affidavit in mind. With his 39 years of studying capital juries and teaching at the National Judicial

Starting point is 00:03:14 College, he is considered by the United States Supreme Court an expert in this area. He has published this book. It's called A Life and Death Decision, A Jury Weighs the Death Penalty. And this book is a culmination of interviews of over 1,200 capital jurors and how capital juries make decisions. Research shows that when a small community creates pressure to impose death, an Eighth Amendment violation may occur. Through these witnesses today, we want to avoid beginning a trial with, as Mr. Sunbee states, quote, a thumb on death's side of the scale. I want to thank Upside for sponsoring today's Law & Crime YouTube Takeover. Upside is a free app that gets you cash back on gas and groceries.

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Starting point is 00:04:25 on the app and get paid. You can use Upside at places like Shell, Exxon, Mobile, 7-Eleven, Taco Bell, and many, many more. To find out how much you could earn, click the link in the description to download Upside or scan the QR code on your screen and use our promo code LCTAKEOVER to get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's promo code LCTakeOver for an extra 25 cents back on your first gallon of gas. Now back to that survey that I mentioned that the defense conducted. Dr. Brian Adelman spoke with jurors in four counties, including Latah. So I think high level, you can see case recognition is very high and it's pretty

Starting point is 00:05:07 much, it's also high in Ada County. It's 93% there. It's almost everyone in Latah County, 98%, which is similar to what I saw in the George Floyd case, where it was 99%. So this is extremely high. They're pretty much the same. So Dr. Edelman is saying that basically everyone in Latah County has heard about this case. That's not a surprise. Back in the spring, Dr. Edelman's survey caused some major heartburn for prosecutors who were furious when they found out about it because they said it violated the court's non-dissemination order. But Judge Judge allowed the survey to continue.

Starting point is 00:05:41 Dr. Edelman talked about how many people in Latah County felt Brian Koberger was guilty and should be put to continue. Dr. Edelman talked about how many people in Latah County felt Brian Koberger was guilty and should be put to death. You can see people in Latah County reported that they followed the case somewhat or very closely. Almost 70 percent are closely following this case. Again, that means they're actively looking for information, passively consuming information, talking about it. So it's a big deal in this community. And there's a presumption of guilt. The burden has shifted. So 67% believe Brian Koberger is guilty of murder. And 25% reported that he's definitely guilty. So these are strong opinions. And 51% reported what I call a fixed opinion, where they reported that Koberger would have a difficult time convincing them that he's not guilty. So the burden of proof is shifted on the defendant to prove his innocence.

Starting point is 00:06:35 And that undermines due process. That's not how our system is designed to work. And also on the question of sentence, you can see that 52% believe that he should be sentenced to death. Now, the defense has made no secret of the fact that they want the trial moved to Ada County. That's in the Boise area. The population there, according to 2022 numbers, 518,907. It's the largest county in the state. Both Daybell trials were moved to Ada County, and the trials went off without a hitch, and both were convicted.

Starting point is 00:07:10 But you have a much larger jury pool in Ada County. Dr. Edelman talked about some of the things that prospective jurors in Latah County said about Brian Koberger. How would the community react if he's not convicted, if he's not guilty? And there was quite a bit of strong comments on a range of themes from people would basically kill him to they burn the courthouse down or assume that the jury failed or that he would have to prove that he was not guilty again shifting the burden so it's like i can't imagine that happening because they have so much evidence evidence against him we would be dumbfounded So it's like, I can't imagine that happening because they have so much evidence against him. We would be dumbfounded. Like, how could he not be guilty given the amount of evidence?

Starting point is 00:07:51 Several would be on the hunt for him to make sure he gets what's coming to him. And then just emotional stuff about it would be devastating to the community. Other people talked about the fear. If he didn't do it, well, who did? That means this person is still among us. It creates the same stress and fear and anxiety that people had before. So this community needs closure. So Dr. Edelman's survey revealed that emotions are still very raw in Latah County, and you can imagine that they would be. Four college kids, Maddie, Kaylee, Zanna, and Ethan were slaughtered

Starting point is 00:08:21 in that home off campus for no reason at all. They should still be here. But the issue at hand is whether Brian Koberger can get a fair trial in Latah County. The prosecution says yes, and the defense says no. Dr. Edelman discussed what he found when talking with residents in Latah County about things that they had read online. There's a lot of references to things that, you know, the defendant committed a murder in Oregon, like speculation, no evidence of that. It's just something they heard, that he talked about committing the perfect murder on a paper,

Starting point is 00:08:53 or that he hates women and he had trouble at the university he goes to with women, and people who worked with him had problems. He stalked her because she didn't respond to him people were looking at reddit comments or reddit posts he had made and from years back all that kind of stuff and then references to him you know having obsession with some of the victims um ritual animal killings and these are just a couple examples like you'll see that stuff everywhere, but the amount you see in Latah County is much higher. Like, you know, if you go through comments in Ada County, you'll see, you'll find some too. You can find examples, and I'm sure if you go to Bannock and Canyon,

Starting point is 00:09:33 you're going to see them because the case has gotten so much attention, but not to the degree you have here. And given the size of the community, it's much more significant. Dr. Brian Adelman summed up why he's recommending a change of venue based on his survey results. The crime has been seared in the community's consciousness. People have been saturated with prejudicial coverage. Many people here have direct and indirect connections to this crime. People here demonstrate they were experiencing fear and stress, panic in this community. There's significant rumors and misinformation that have been spread and people have been exposed to in this community. There's a feeling of pressure to convince, I think, given the reaction that people think the community would have if he's acquitted.

Starting point is 00:10:22 That's particularly concerning. We know from the data that jurors have closely followed the case, talked about it. They're familiar with prejudicial details. I think that the presumption of innocence has been undermined and presumption of guilt prevails in this community. And I think the pre-existing attitudes and opinions will influence how people process the evidence. Interestingly enough, the state said it had everything it needed from Dr. Adelman and didn't cross-examine him. But Special Prosecutor Ingram Beatty made some points through questioning another defense witness. Would it surprise you to find out that 60 percent of Latah County residents who were surveyed reported that they did not feel higher levels of stress or anxiety during the hunt for the killer in this case. I don't know. I don't know

Starting point is 00:11:11 what percentage I would have estimated. I just would have estimated it to be higher in Latah. Beatty also asked about Dr. Edelman's survey results about opinions of Brian Koberger. Would you be surprised to find out that in the survey when jurors were asked, potential jurors who were responding to the survey when jurors were asked, potential jurors who were responding to the survey were asked what their opinion is of Brian Koberger, the highest percentage of prospective jurors that were surveyed who had no opinion of Mr. Koberger were Latak County survey respondents. So that surprised you? That they have no opinion about whether he is guilty. I think the question is just, do you have an opinion of Mr. Kohlberger?

Starting point is 00:11:50 Well, it's a high-profile case that had a lot of coverage, and the percentages are so high of people who have an opinion. I imagine I don't have those in front of me. But in statistics, we call that a ceiling effect, when all are high and you can't re So I don't know if we're know what numbers you're

Starting point is 00:12:13 know if that applies or n case. In high profile cas can be seated in a smalle in a bigger jury pool. Th possibly summoning 1800,800 jurors. Whether the trial stays in Latah County or moves to Ada County, would bringing in a larger jury pool alleviate some of these concerns across any jurisdiction? Well, if we're talking about Latah County,

Starting point is 00:12:39 a lot of the things that I mentioned were not in the survey. So there are motions I mentioned that weren't assessed during the survey, impressions of Mr. Coworker that weren't in the survey. So it could be that 90% of people think he's a bad guy, but they don't think he's guilty. And then that still could influence judgment. So it's really hard to answer that question without, you know, I didn't make the survey. And even if I did, there'd be a lot of things that I would miss too, you know, so I can't make that determination. Now, I mentioned earlier that this case has received a lot of news coverage everywhere,

Starting point is 00:13:15 even nationally. But another defense expert testified that the amount of coverage would be magnified in a small county like Latah. Is there more saturation in Latah County or more saturation with media coverage in Ada County? Yes. A person in Latah County would be exposed to far more media coverage than people, a community in Ada County. A story, you may have heard the phrase, this story has legs. A story that is extreme, unique, atypical, has greater legs than, say, high school football scores you hear on the 10 o'clock news on a Friday night. Those would have a very fast decay of memory on consuming viewers. this type of story will remain on the mind and be of interest up to and beyond the conclusion of this case, however that might be. Finally, both sides made their final pitches to the judge. The court can also presume prejudice by looking at this case as it is. It's an extreme case that

Starting point is 00:14:22 comes out of the Haddon case in Idaho, and you can presume prejudice in an extreme case. You have heard all day long how much coverage this case garners. It's Latop County. It's bigger. It's a state of Idaho. It's nationwide. It's outside of the nation. It's continuous. It's every day. Social media, books have been written, primetime television shows have happened in this case. It just doesn't stop. Despite some of the findings in the survey, the state says that the trial should be held locally. Your Honor, the case law in this case just does not support a change of venue, given the evidence that the court has before it. The state does not disagree with counsel on what the appropriate standard is. The appropriate

Starting point is 00:15:11 standard is that the defense has the burden of showing a reasonable likelihood that the defendant's ability to get a fair trial is going to be diminished as opposed to some other county, or put another way, a reasonable likelihood that pretrial publicity will deprive him of a fair trial is going to be diminished as opposed to some other county, or put another way, a reasonable likelihood that pretrial publicity will deprive him of a fair trial. So in looking at the evidence the court has before it, we can start with Exhibit C. Those were the charts presented by Truescope, and we can see in those charts that for at least six months on one of those line graphs that compared Ada County and Latah County, Ada County had significantly more coverage than Latah County. And that more recently in the past couple of months, that line graph comes together again, and they're just a couple

Starting point is 00:15:59 points off. The fact is, Your Honor, this case has media coverage everywhere. That is something that was acknowledged by the defense, and that is something that is abundantly clear in these surveys. And the victims' families want the trial held in Latah County. Most of the victims' families, not all of them, but most of them, live closer to Latah County than they do to Boise. That means that for them traveling to this trial, which they will have a constitutional right to attend, and again, we're only asking the court to consider this in the convenience prong, will be much easier for them and more convenient for them than it would be for them to have to travel hundreds of miles to Boise. I think the court can and should consider that factor as well. I would say this is probably the most difficult decision I've ever had to make. Both sides have made really solid positions in support of that.

Starting point is 00:17:15 I know there are a lot of considerations, practical, you know, in terms of logistics and prejudicial media. So I have some work to do. I'm going to go through everything, okay? Even I thought I got most of everything, but that's going to take me a little bit of time and go through go through the law again too including the the rule itself and the interpretation of that so I'll do my best it's a. So that's probably all I should say at this point. Judge Judge did not issue a ruling. That will come at a later date. Brian Koberger remains in the Latah County Jail, where he is being held without bond. And at this

Starting point is 00:18:18 point, his trial is scheduled for June of 2025. That does it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.

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Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - 7 Big Moments in Bryan Kohberger's Fight To Move Trial: 'Burn Down The Courthouse'

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Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - 7 Big Moments in Bryan Kohberger's Fight To Move Trial: 'Burn Down The Courthouse'

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