Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - 7 Gruesome Moments in Disturbing Delphi Murders Trial

Episode Date: October 24, 2024

Jurors in Richard Allen’s double murder trial have seen gruesome crime scene and autopsy photos this week. A forensic pathologist testified about Libby German and Abby Williams . Crime scene investigators have were grilled about their handling of the scene as jurors saw video of “Bridge Guy” and heard evidence about Libby’s cell phone. Law&Crime’s Angenette Levy looks at the latest testimony in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/CrimeFixHost:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest: Lauren Matthias https://www.youtube.com/@HiddenTrueCrimeCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Jurors in Richard Allen's double murder trial hear testimony about Libby German and Abby Williams' autopsies, and they see the video of the bridge guy that the prosecution says is Richard Allen. I talk with someone who's been in the courtroom in Delphi about the latest testimony in the trial. Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy.

Jurors in Richard Allen's murder trial and Libby German and Abby Williams' families have seen some really, really awful things this week. The week started with crime scene photos that showed Libby and Abby after their bodies were found on Valentine's Day in 2017. Crime scene investigators were grilled about what they did and what they didn't do. Lauren Mathias with the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel will be here soon to tell us all about what happened. Jurors also heard testimony about Libby German's cell phone. She and Abby were crossing the Monon High Bridge that February 13th in 2017. Libby had actually posted a photo of Abby on Snapchat around 2.05 p.m. crossing the bridge.

That photo circulated on social media years ago. The photo showed Abby wearing a gray sweatshirt and red top. When Abby's body was found, she was actually wearing Libby's clothes. Libby also recorded a video of Bridge Guy at 2.13 p.m. Here's the enhanced video released by the FBI. Now, the video that the jurors saw was actually the original video, and it was longer than what I just showed you and wasn't the loop you just watched. The original video is 43 seconds long, and one of the girls can be heard saying something to the effect of, There's no path down here. We've got to go down here.

One reporter tweeted that Abby Williams' mother confirmed that the voice was her daughter's. Fox 59 reported that Libby's phone showed a change in longitude, altitude, and elevation at 2.31 p.m., which would match with the girls being led down a hill and possibly across Deer Creek. A minute later, the phone was no longer moving and didn't move again or ping again, according to a witness's testimony, which cast doubt on a defense theory that the girls were abducted

and brought back to the area and killed later. The jury also heard from several witnesses who saw Bridge Guy, and they heard from the pathologist who conducted the autopsies on Abby and Libby. Both girls' throats had been cut. The stories I cover each day here on Crime Fix show you just how scary the world can be. And one of the scariest things that can happen is if you ever get hurt. But I want you to know,

if you're ever seriously hurt or in an accident, your case could be worth millions. And that's where our sponsor, Morgan & Morgan, comes in. The firm has an army of more than 1000 lawyers who will fight for what you deserve. And they have the track record to prove it. In the past few months, Morgan & Morgan has won big verdicts like $12 million in Florida, $26 million in Philadelphia and 6.8 million in New York. All were much higher than the highest insurance company offer. Seeing if you have a case can be done in eight clicks or less, and you don't have to leave your couch to start one. Also, a really great thing, you only pay Morgan & Morgan if you win. There are no upfront fees. So if you're hurt, you can easily start a claim at ForThePeople.com slash Crime Fix. Lauren Mathias is the host of the Hidden True Crime YouTube channel, and she's been attending the trial in Delphi each day. Lauren, take me into the courtroom,

first of all, for the very latest. I know this has to be just excruciating for the family of Libby German and Abby Williams. It must be excruciating. I actually looked over at them several times to see, and there have been times where Libby's mother's hands are covering her face and her daughters are consoling her, rubbing her back. We are seeing crime scene photos, and today we saw autopsy photos. We heard how the girls died. We heard more about their wounds. We saw the wounds. It was very traumatic today in court. The pathologist, it's my understanding, testified that both girls died from deep slash wounds to their throats. It's just horrific. We know that Libby was found naked and there were sticks over her body and that Abby was wearing Libby's clothes, which I still don't quite understand. I don't know if the state will ever be able to explain that fact, but there was some

discussion about whether or not there was a sexual assault of Abby. So can you tell us a little bit about that testimony of both girls, obviously? Yes. The sexual assault kits that were done on both girls were discussed today. And it was told by the pathologist that there were no visible traumatic injuries that would show sexual assault, but that doesn't mean that there wasn't sexual assault. There were just no visible injuries. And I think it's important that he presented it that way. While there were no visible injuries or evidence that shows a sexual assault, that doesn't mean there wasn't sexual assault. And I just want to point out, you know, the fact that Libby was found nude. I mean,

that in itself, a little girl, you know, undressing, I can't imagine that that isn't sexual assault. It just had to be the most terrifying time of these poor girls' lives. And then Abby, you know, you have to think at some point, because we know there was that photo of her that's been circulating on social media for years, plus the video showing her with the clothes that she left the house in. And then she's wearing, for some reason, Libby's clothing. We don't know if they believe the killer then put her in those clothes or what. We just don't know. But talk to me a little bit about what happened when they showed the video of Bridge Guy, because that happened in the last day or two where the jurors were presented with that. We've seen the enhanced video over the years,

but we've never seen that full video. Right. The full video turns out was 43 seconds long. We watched it a few times in the courtroom. At first, the first time you see it, you can't necessarily, unless you have really good eyesight, you maybe even miss bridge guy in the background behind Abby, you have Libby filming and you have Abby sort of out on the bridge and you do see somebody in the background, but the, the cell phone is kind of going up and down. And I think that maybe this is, this is my perception that maybe she was sort of trying to pretend that she wasn't necessarily filming because then as, as Abby came across the bridge, the, the phone started to point at some gravel. And that is actually where you hear down the hill very faintly. And you don't see Abby's face. You see the gravel, you see her pants, you see quite a shaky video and you hear this voice.

What sounds like a little girl. I wrote in my notes, sounds so young where she says, there's no path as in it's so ominous. It's, it's like they realize they're at this dead end and that they're at the, on this other side of a rail road bridge, nobody else is around. And a man is stating to them down the hill and Abby, you know, stating there's nowhere to go, essentially, but saying there's no path. It's such a heartbreaking thing to hear. Because these girls, I mean, they're complying with an order from an adult. And the state's theory is that there was a firearm present to get them to comply. So you have to imagine they're just terrified. I mean, I just can't even imagine.

I can't imagine either. And the more we learn in court, the more brutal this crime becomes. It's really unfathomable. And I cannot imagine what those two girls went through in their last hour. It's just awful. There have been a number of witnesses who testified about seeing Bridge Guy. And something that's been pointed out is that none of these witnesses have been asked, was that Richard Allen? And maybe that's because that's a question for the jury to answer. But a number of people described, a number of witnesses described seeing Bridge Guy. One that testified said that she saw Bridge Guy, I guess, on a road and his legs, I guess, appeared bloody and muddy. So tell us a little bit about that testimony.

It was a woman named Sarah Carbaugh, I believe. Yes, we heard from Sarah this morning in court and Sarah testified and she testified with certainty to the point that she says that she was driving. It was around 4 p.m. because there is surveillance camera capturing her driving the direction, she says says and it was just before 4 p.m. on February 13th 2017 and she she frequented the Monon High Bridge trail daily or often she lived nearby she would walk her dog there and she says that on the side of the road she saw a man who was muddy and bloody. She repeated that it was certain that is what she saw, that he had mud, especially at the top.

And then he was bloody lower down on his pants that there was blood. And she then says that after she saw him, she learned about the two missing girls when she learned that they were then found deceased. And then she, she learned about bridge guy and saw the photo. She thought that was absolutely him. And then that is when she decided to share this with police. Now defense, uh, the cross exam was interesting and they claimed that she's allegedly changed her testimony over the years, that she originally just said muddy, muddy, muddy. Then the next interview, she said muddy. Then the next interview, she then stated bloody, but not muddy. She was fairly defiant with cross-exam, saying that her testimony has never changed, that she has always said muddy and bloody, and that if there is some interview that's missing, she actually alleged there might be missing video of a third

interview. It was quite an interesting moment in court that that's not on her and that's not her issue, but that she had always said that she saw a man who was muddy and bloody. Yeah, it sounded like she was very defensive on cross-examination and even brought up the missing videos that we've heard about the defense saying that there was a DVR that was recorded over for some reason because of the settings on it. The crime scene investigators have really been grilled in this case because the defense is alleging that the investigation was botched. There's been discussion about how many pictures were taken of the bullet found at the scene. That's going to be a major point of contention. The state says it was cycled through Richard Allen's gun. The defense is questioning that assertion. So they really were grilled by the defense team. They really were. And I actually think that the defense,

in my opinion, from what I saw, I think they won some points as these crime scene investigators were grilled. They brought up the fact that the crime scene investigators did not bring with them the sticks, which by the way, when I heard sticks originally, I was thinking like little sticks, little twigs. These are branches, like almost like giant tree branches. They were large twigs. I mean, they weren't twigs, they were sticks. And so, so picture quite large sticks, limbs almost. And they were, they were on top of the girls, both of them in different places, different placement. And they, they said that they left them and that they, they, the crime scene investigator said they,

they didn't feel like they could take them to test because they were mossy and crumbly and wouldn't necessarily do well in trying to get DNA or evidence, I guess, off of these sticks. Well, then we learned that two days later they were told to go back and get the sticks and that they actually were supposed to collect them. And clearly, because we have not heard yet of any DNA being found at the scene, the question was posed, well, couldn't the person who did this crime, couldn't they have touched these sticks? Was it not important to test them? And, you know, it was an interesting moment and it did create a lot of questions about how the crime scene was investigated. And I do think that for the defense there there were some wins there. How is the jury seeming to react to that? Because I had read some tweets, you know, late last weekend where it sounded like the jurors were kind of leaning in and really seem to be liking the style of the prosecution? Do they seem to be engaged in what the defense is doing when they ask these questions?

You know, they are actually a very engaged jury. I think they're actually really listening to the defense. You know, they're always taking notes. They're always listening. And one thing that's interesting about this trial is this is a trial where the jury and the jurors are allowed to ask questions at the end of every witness after cross-exam and redirect. They are able to submit their questions. And so you get an idea of what they're really thinking and what they're really wondering about. I have to be honest. It seems as if some of the jurors with the questions they're asking knew about this crime and perhaps some details that have, you know, sometimes I feel like some of the jurors are jumping ahead with their questions,

which make me suspicious that they know quite a bit about this crime. They're certainly listening. And there are other times where, you know, they're asking questions like what was the cell phone carrier? And I think a lot of the questions they're asking really have to do with the defense cross like today in court after, after, um, the last testimony, it was a cell phone data that was extracted. They asked so many questions about a missing photo that was found in the Snapchat cache that was allegedly posted by Libby on her Snapchat at 2.05. So that would be just minutes before 2.13 when the bridge guy video was taken. And they, they cannot, they were, the investigators were not able to find this Snapchat photo on Libby's phone.

And so there were a lot of questions this afternoon about where this photo is. And to me, it seems as if they have the same questions the defense has, because the defense is really pushing home, like, could Libby have been using another, was there another device around? Did she post another device? How could you not have this photo? And the jurors had the same questions. That's very interesting because minutes, maybe even seconds, really matter in this case. I want to go back to kind of the beginning of the week when the crime scene photos were shown, I kind of read that that was very difficult,

as I'm sure it was. This whole thing is difficult for the family to see these crime scene photos. I just can't imagine them sitting there. And I was reading, too, that some of the jurors had a really hard time, even some of the male jurors, and that Libby's eyes appeared to be blacked out. Can you talk to us a little bit about that? Yeah, there were actually audible gasps in the courtroom when they would switch to different photographs at the crime scene because they were graphic. And yes, they were censored in that they covered the victim's eyes sometimes when they did close-ups of their faces and their injuries. And then they censored parts of Libby's nude body. But that was it.

And everything else was quite graphic, and it was quite shocking, and it was quite traumatic. And yes, I looked over at Libby's mother was in the courtroom and she had her face in her hands while her daughter rubbed her back. At one point I looked over to, to Kathy Allen, who's been there every day, along with that's Richard Allen's wife, along with Richard Allen's mother and Kathy Allen seemed quite upset. Um, take that for what it is. Um, I, I imagine seeing crime scenes of little girls is going to be upsetting to most people. Richard Allen watched and watched the screen. And yeah, I will never forget that day

or what I saw. You can't forget that. And I'll just say it was it was brutal. Again, I can't imagine what those girls went through. I'll have to say this, and it goes along with what we saw today in the autopsy. It seemed as if, to me, Libby certainly had more injuries and was hurt. And I don't know what that means. I'm not a profiler, right? But targeted somehow? I don't know.

I'm not even implying that the person knew her. I don't know what that means. I'm not a profiler, right, but targeted somehow. I don't know. I'm not even implying that the person knew her. I don't know, but certainly targeted on this day or in this moment that she had more injuries than Abby had. And today at the autopsy that that that was shown to be true. She had multiple wounds on her neck while Abby just had one, she had about four to five and they explained that she had second passes, meaning the instrument that was used

to murder these girls was so, so four to five wounds, but there were second passes with the weapon on Libby, not on Abby, just on Libby. And the crime scene showed just how much bloodier and terrible it was with Libby. And we also learned, you know, Libby had blood on both of her hands at the crime scene. And people were wondering about that. And they explained today that it was likely that Libby held her own neck, that she tried to put pressure on her neck to hold it. And that is why both of her hands were bloody. So it is a day I won't forget. And, um, and, you know, and I can't imagine being family in that courtroom. They, they were, they were really brave and they clearly want to, sure to bear witness to what happened to these innocent little girls, you know, being in that courtroom.

And we haven't gotten yet to these statements that the prosecution claims that are incriminating that they say Richard Allen made while he was in custody. We believe that'll come at some later date. There is this letter, though. Have you seen the letter that he allegedly wrote while in prison or in jail, I should say, while he was in prison, being held in a prison, where he said that he wanted to officially confess and hoped he could apologize to the families or something to that effect? Have you been able to see a copy of that letter? I saw a copy of the recreation or the recreation, the recreation that was posted. And I did see that. And I'm grateful for the reporters that went to go view that and make the recreation. I have not seen the actual letter, but I did see that. And I think it shows that there's a lot more to come in this

trial. At this point, you sort of mentioned this, Anjanette, but they've hardly really mentioned Richard Allen's name. In fact, the defense has mentioned Richard Allen's name more than the prosecution has at this point. So essentially, they seem to still be setting the stage. And so to see a copy of that letter and to know that they really haven't even started to say that, you know, to assert that Richard Allen is bridge guy yet. Um, I assume there's a lot more to come. They may be setting the stage and it may be a tactic. Lauren Mathias, thank you so much for coming on. I appreciate it. Thank you, Anjanette. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix.

I'm Anjanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.