Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - 7 Shocking Details from Delphi Murders Defense

Episode Date: November 6, 2024

Attorneys for Richard Allen's defense are calling witnesses after the state rested its case. Allen maintains he falsely confessed to the murders of Libby German and Abby Williams while he was in custody awaiting trial because he was kept in solitary confinement. Prosecutors claim Allen knew details only the killer would know. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy talks with author Susan Hendricks about what's happened in the courtroom in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/crimefix to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest:Susan Hendricks  https://x.com/SusanHendricksCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Richard Allen's defense makes its case to a jury in Delphi, Indiana. I have the highlights from the defense's case so far and their witnesses. Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. The jury in Richard Allen's double murder trial has heard from the prosecution

has told the jury that Allen knew details that only the killer would know. Susan Hendricks, the author of Down the Hill, will be here to fill us in soon on what's been happening in the courtroom since cameras are not allowed. Allen, of course, was not arrested and charged with the murders until October 2022 2022 after a clerk found his name on a tip sheet in a desk that appeared to have been lost and the police went back to him to talk with him. Allen's lawyers have repeatedly questioned the investigation and how it was handled and, in their opinion, mishandled. The defense called Indiana State Police Superintendent Doug Carter to the stand and asked him about his

decision to remove the FBI from the Delphi murders investigation in August of 2021. Now, the questioning didn't go much further than that after a sidebar with the judge. One of the defense's biggest challenges, refuting the 61 confessions Richard Allen made to the murders while he was in custody. The jurors have heard about Allen's alleged confessions in which he told a prison psychologist, I killed Abby and Libby. The jurors also heard phone calls between Allen and his wife and mother in which he confessed to the crimes. Allen told his wife in a phone call, I didn't do everything I said I did, but I killed Abby and Libby. At one point, Allen's wife actually hung up on him.

Alan's attorneys are trying to cast doubt on the statements that he made while he was being held in solitary confinement at the Westville prison. I want to tell you about a great app and a sponsor of Crime Fix. It's called Upside. It's a free app that gives you cash back on things like food and gas. This is not a confusing rewards program. Upside actually gives you real money back that goes straight into your bank account. Just download the Upside app, click on it, and claim an offer and pay with your debit or credit card as usual. Upside works at places like Shell, Exxon, 7-Eleven, Taco Bell, KFC, and even chipotle to find out how much you could earn click the link in the description to

download upside or scan the qr code on your screen and use our promo code crime fix and get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas that's promo code crime fix for extra cash back i want to bring in susan hendricks she's the author of down the hill and she's been attending the trial each day susan you had some really interesting thoughts that we were talking about before we started here. And one of them was about Richard Allen's daughter and his sister both testifying, and they both testified that Richard Allen never molested them. And I had said earlier in the show, this is all about casting doubt on his statements that he made. And one of those to Dr. Wallow was that he molested family members. Absolutely. It's good to see you. It's day 16.

And that was yesterday, day 15. And that was shocking for me because everyone, there's been whispers about where's the daughter? We know he has a daughter. We know that she's married. We know that she's about, I don't know, 23 years old, maybe, and doesn't live in the state. But we've always wondered. Richard Allen's mother's there. His wife is there. Never the daughter.

In the confessions that we heard, never mention of the daughter. She walks in and she goes on the stand. And I look at her and I could tell. Obviously uncomfortable. No one ever wants to be on a witness stand, obviously, but clearly it was the worst place that she could be. And I felt for her, my heart broke for her. Never did she look at her father, maybe a quick glance, but never again, maybe once and then avoided him at all costs. And I know that Richard Allen's

sister was on the stand before her and the questions were quick. And it's like, that's your brother. Yes. Same mother and father, same mother, different father. Did he molest you? No. Do you love him? Yes. Would you lie for him? No. And then the daughter got on the stand, same questions. But it was to me, I think what was most telling. And I wonder, I looked at the jury, I wonder if they saw what I saw, that number one, Kathy Allen was not in that courtroom. Her mother was not there to support her. And you could tell that she was not looking at her father. So it makes you wonder, what is her relationship with the family?

Yeah, there's an interesting dynamic there. A lot we don't know. And they obviously they kept it tight and they kept it very limited because they don't want to open the doors to possibly any other testimony. And maybe they were told by the judge, you can address these very, very specific points. And that's about it. Absolutely. Let's talk now about the neuropsychologist who testified. And this guy was brought in. I shouldn't call him this guy, but he's a very, you know, very, he's got a great resume. I mean, this is a really educated guy

and he specializes in solitary confinement. And he was brought in to basically say, or to lead the jury to believe that Richard Allen could have been just basically driven crazy for, you know, let's just put it plainly. He could have been driven nuts by solitary confinement and said just about anything. And he even used that term crazy, which I thought, wait a minute, you're a Harvard grad, but he did use that. He used it. And so it's Dr. Stuart

Grassian, NYU, Harvard Medical School, Beth Israel Hospital. I mean, you name it. So his resume was the first, I don't know, four minutes of this. And you could tell this guy's about 75 years old. He knows what he's talking about. He's a smart guy. And he specializes in solitary confinement. And of course, he goes on and on about how, of course, how terrible it can be for a psyche,

how you can be driven into delirium and what that means. And I find that the jury's questions throughout this have been the most telling for me because they're questions sometimes I want to ask. But the questions to him were telling. And one of them was, can someone be driven to this point if they spend six months, if they're normal coming in and they spend six months to a year in solitary confinement? He said, absolutely. I mean, he answered it like that. And then they said, can you go back to where you were after some time? And the answer, yes. So I wonder, would there be more objections here? And there weren't.

But I've always learned, and I told you this earlier, that usually in cases, it can be the battle of the experts. Who do you believe? There's someone on the prosecution side, there's someone on the defense side. And usually, I've heard from the best of the best that I worked with at HLN and CNN, they said, Susan, usually they cancel each other out. So there better be more evidence. But if you if you don't know, like who's right or who's wrong, but the ballistics, I think, are key. That bullet, I believe, which is like a fingerprint. That's my belief. And you have to have the jury believe that will place Richard Allen there and connect it to his gun.

And that's it. That's a big deal here. So let's talk about Dr. Eric Warren. Now, he's in Tennessee and he is the defense forensic expert. And basically, the state's expert had already testified, saying she looked at, you know, the round found at the crime scene by Libby's body or in between the girls' bodies and that she felt the ejector mark on it was the same as it would be the same as if you had fired the round and that it came, you know, most likely came from Richard Allen's gun. You know, they always use the, oh, it's consistent with, they always use that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so they bring in, the defense brings in Eric Warren to poo-poo their their experts findings. So tell us what Eric Warren

said. The guy who was the expert for the defense, he went to Vanderbilt. Again, his education was the first four minutes going on and on. But then you realize he's not certified any longer and he's just a consultant. And so essentially, the state was going to say that you're just making this up because anyone who's part of a group that now you belong to, you are rejecting this evidence where you can see the markings. So it's basically what I've learned through the months is that it can be like a fingerprint. And that bullet was connected to a gun found in Richard Allen's home. Well, the defense is trying to say that didn't happen. The expert on the stand says that he could see that it didn't happen.

And he was talking. And since I didn't get it, I always look at myself as like a juror. I'm like, they don't get it either. And it was going on and on and on. I'm thinking, is the state going to object? And he didn't. But then with the cross, he came out swinging. And this is James of the trail. He's the older gentleman, the older lawyer, which I believe, I believe Mike Patty or Becky

Patty, Libby's grandparents told me that he may have come out of retirement or, you know, he was older, but he's here and he's soft spoken. And he came out with his voice raised. What do you mean? This isn't like this. And isn't it true that you said this and that? And it was I felt like the state won today when it came to ballistics, because I believe they believe that this is their key piece of evidence, which connects Richard Allen to that crime scene. The bullet, the casing, the unspent bullet was found in between the bodies of Abby and Libby.

So this was key, the back and forth. But it was contentious, to say the least. Yeah, most certainly, because it is something that the defense is really going to have to knock out in their minds. And let's use this to kind of connect to Brad Weber, the guy who lives nearby, because it's my understanding that the defense brought up or has brought up the fact that he also owned a firearm that couldn't have been ruled out possibly. Or there was some language used about his firearm that he owned. They, you know, they didn't rule it out. Right. That they couldn't rule it out as that round between the girls bodies that they couldn't they couldn't say definitively that round couldn't have come from his gun. And he lives right now, right nearby. Right. And of course, innocent until proven guilty, Richard Allen. So you're listening to the defense's case, as I am.

And Brad Weber gets on the stand and it's clear he doesn't want to be there. I mean, he really doesn't want to be there. And he's sitting up there and he's a little disheveled with like a plaid shirt on. And this is key because during the confessions of Richard Allen that were read, well, we heard some of the confessions. It's so funny. The days kind of mesh into each other. But I heard seven confessions from Richard Allen from the prison to his wife and mother. But during these confessions, the 61 plus, he mentions that he was interrupted because a witness for the state on the stand. And this is Brian Harshman. Indiana State Police said that he said that he led them down the hill. And this is when I leaned forward.

I went, this is it. This is the story. And someone behind me coughed. I'm like, no, I want to hear this. And what Brian Harshman said on that stand, he said that Richard Allen said he was laying in wait and he followed them on the bridge. He followed them, walked them down the hill with a gun. His intent was to rape his words. His intent was to rape. He went down the hill to a certain area,

maybe a landing if you're familiar with that area in Delphi, down the hill from the Moon on High Bridge, and he was interrupted by a van. Well, that's a private drive. That's the home of the witness we're talking about. So, and the timing of this guy, he left work at 2.02. He got off work and at 2.30, it would have been him. He said he led the girls across the creek. He said he slit their throats. He said he made sure they were dead so they didn't suffer.

And he walked up to an area where he thought no one could see him. And he lived his life, his words. And that is what the testimony was from the state. So to get this time, they want to poke holes in the timeline, the defense clearly. So having him on the stand and saying, wait a minute, what time did you get off work? Isn't it true that you own ATMs? And he said, I own ATMs. And you could tell that that Baldwin was pecking and pecking and pecking to try to make this guy lose his temper. And he felt like at any moment he could, but he didn't.

And he was kind of even funny, if you will, like just, well, no, you tell me that. He said, well, open to page six from your deposition. Would you mind? He goes, do I have a choice? You know, how, how it goes in trials where it's like, it breaks up back and forth. Yeah. And, uh, but it was, he says, is it a true that on February 14th, you did not let authorities search your outhouses. You have four or five of them. He goes, right. Well, maybe, I don't know. You know, he's all over the place. But then he said, but they were all over me. They called me all the time. I don't know what day they called me. And I took a lie detector test. So he got that in. So you cut, but you could see how they of course would investigate him

initially out of the gate. I mean, he's right there. The girls are right there by his property. Right. It's proximity. So he was key on the stand. He was combative. He did not like Baldwin, but he didn't lose his temper. But I don't know what Baldwin was trying to establish. Maybe to the jurors, look, this guy's a loose cannon. I don't know if he could believe what he says. He had a lot of ATMs. He was servicing them. But McLean just stood up, stayed and said, how do you leave work? How does that work? He said, I have a badge. Like at CNN, we had a badge and it lets you out. So you know when you come, you know when you go. And he said, oh, that lets you out. It was at Subaru. He said, yes. And that's all he needed to know. And he said, no further questions because the timeline then works out. He was out that day, February 13th, 2.02 p.m., which puts him in a van at the home around

2.30 where he could have interrupted Richard Allen. That's interesting. I wonder if we'll see something about his swiping key card or something. Who knows? Maybe this guy will come back to the stand. And now that finally, let's just talk briefly about some cell phone testimony. The defense had a cell phone expert come in to talk about how Libby's phone may have had something plugged into it for a period of time. So it sounds like the jury had a lot of information to consider.

Stacey Eldridge, FBI. She worked for the FBI for 10 years. Digital evidence. I mean, she knows what she's talking about, but there's always been a question about Libby's phone. And of course, she took the video of who the state believes is Richard Allen on the bridge saying guys down the hill. And that, of course, was so much evidence throughout until someone was arrested five plus years later.

But now they're saying this phone, which was found under Abby, and shows, so the state is saying, look, it didn't move. Somehow they can connect Apple to that, or maybe the Apple Fit app, if I'm saying that correctly, I may be wrong, but that they could prove that it didn't move. And then all of a sudden, this is what I believe may have happened. I'm not sure based on what I heard from the state is, have you ever been in a bad area where you can't get texts through? And then maybe it's a time of day, or all of a sudden, you get a bunch of texts like, oh my gosh, they're all coming through at once.

Because you hit the tower again, you get service or what have you. Exactly. So I think that's what the state is saying that all of a sudden this influx came in around four o'clock in the morning, four Oh six to be exact. But so this witness on the stand today said that at 5 45 PM on the night, the girls went missing. And according to the state, they were murdered a little after 2.30, sadly. So this is 5.45 p.m. to 10.32 p.m. Wired headphones were plugged into the phone, which I don't know what that means. Obviously, it creates doubt. And we think this

is what I think they want the jurors to believe. And if you believe it, that Abby and Libby were taken from that spot, brought back, which doesn't make sense to me, because by then there was a search on for the girls. Why would you bring them back alive and kill them at the place where the search is now on? That's what they're saying, that they were taken away. It doesn't have to be Brad Weber's van. It could have been someone else's. But the cell phone has always been an issue. And I always thought that maybe it was, right, the tower.

And this is, again, battle of the experts, saying that there was some sort of headphone placed in there. Very interesting. Well, the jury is going to have a lot to consider once they actually finally get this. But you know what's great? They can ask questions, which I feel like in a way you get,

I feel like that's good for them because I know you've covered trials. Yeah. And imagine having to remember all of this. I mean, my notes are horrible. I have notes like ripped out of my notepad. I can't imagine having to remember all that. So maybe they can ask. I like that they can ask questions during. I've covered a number

of trials where that's allowed, and I actually like it. I think it's very good. It makes us speed up deliberations once they finally get there. Well, Susan Hendricks, thank you again for coming back on. We appreciate it. Thank you so much. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.