Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - All New Evidence in Bryan Kohberger's Idaho Murders

Episode Date: September 6, 2025

Bryan Kohberger's defense team said for years that he "maintained his innocence," but then changed his plea to guilty just weeks before jury selection in his trial for the murders of four University of Idaho students was scheduled to begin. Prosecutors and police had collected a trove of circumstantial evidence, including DNA on a knife sheath, that pointed to Kohberger as the killer. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy goes through some of it with those closest to the case in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/crimefix to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Producer:Jordan ChaconCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. What happened that night changed everything. After nearly three years, some measure of justice for the victims on King Road. And now we're seeing some of the evidence collected against the murderer in all black. Start to build this profile of all the behaviors that he did, especially around the time of the crime. He set up his device to be dumb, minimally collecting data. And those close to the investigation are sharing their stories and thoughts on the case.

Even with my almost 18 years of law enforcement, you know, I've seen some, I've seen a lot of things. And I was not prepared for that. Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. The case against Brian Coburger is closed. and that means the case file is open. For more than two years, the case had been shrouded in secrecy. A draconian gag order kept lawyers and investigators from talking about the case publicly. For weeks in late 2022, the families of Maddie Mogan, Kelly Gonsolvis, Zana Cronodle, and Ethan Chapin could only wait and hope that the monster who murdered their children could be identified through DNA testing.

And it happened. Brian Coburger was identified as the source of the DNA. on a K-bar knife sheath found next to Maddie's leg. Pennsylvania State Police moved in on the Washington State University student in the early morning hours of December 30th, 2020. Coburger maintained his innocence, as his attorneys tried again and again to have the death penalty stricken as a possible punishment

through pretrial motions and hearings. We learned that K-Berger bought a K-bar knife sheath and sharpener on Amazon more than eight months before the murders, that he was driving his white. Hyundai Alontera that night and that his cell phone was off during a two-hour time that covered the time of the murders. Then there was this eerie selfie, taken six hours after the murders in the bathroom of Coburgers' apartment in Pullman, a congratulatory thumbs up. Coburger took a lot of selfies of himself. He seemed to be obsessed with his own self-image and with serial killers, including Ted Bundy. More on that, very, very shortly. Now that Coburger has been sentenced and he's

He's in prison for the rest of his life. Those who were intimately involved in the case are free to talk about it. I've talked to several of the key players, including Moscow's police chief. And we've also obtained records that helped tell this horrific story about four lives stolen in the middle of the night for no reason at all. I knew typically when I get a phone call on a day off like that, it's usually something not good. I certainly didn't expect to hear the news that we had not only a homicide, but a quadruable homicide. And my initial reaction was quite honestly disbelief. I thought, well, you've got to be kidding me, right?

I mean, not only are homicides in Moscow very rare, but the idea that we had a quadruple homicide, my brain just didn't comprehend it initially. But the folks on the other side of the line said, well, it's a thing. So get your stuff on and get into work. And that's just what I did. Moscow police officer Mitch Nunez was the first officer to arrive at 1122, King He believes he's responding to a call for an unconscious person.

Where's she at? Yep. Where's she at? Where's she at? Yes. Yes. Where at? Up here?

Up here, up here, up here. You got a call from the number that someone didn't know for what is in the animal. I just came in checking in it and you somebody just come. I didn't check this issue as real, and I didn't check me yet, but... I appreciate... 13 and... We're clear.

We're clear. Let me just secure the outside first. There's a back entry. I was going to start taping it all off. Brian's taping outside off. Okay. Two right. Two right.

Nunez was just putting it off. I already got in there. Nunez was dispatched to a call for an unconscious woman. Instead, Hunter Johnson, Ethan Chapin's best friend, led him to Zana's bedroom, where Ethan and Zana had been attacked and brutally murdered. Hunter had seen this first and sent Bethany and Dylan out of the house. Dude. Okay, nobody's allowed to leave for now, okay?

Just stay here for me, please. You know the, can you guys, can you guys go over to the dumpster for me, please? We had a lot to do on the outside. We had our initial responding officers helping to lock down the scene as they should, and they did a great job of cordoning off the area. we had multiple people that were around that area, college age folks that we needed to identify, we needed to talk to,

we needed to start that investigation and start finding out, okay, you know, where do we go from here? Have you heard about Upside? It's a great app that gives you cash back on things like gas, groceries, and takeout. Upside gives you real money that you can transfer from the app straight into your bank account.

When I pump gas, I use Upside. I've also used it when I go out for ice cream. Here's how it was. works. Download the app, claim an offer for whatever you're buying and pay as usual using a debit or credit card and follow the steps and get paid to find out how much you could earn. Click the link in the description to download upside or scan the QR code on your screen and use our promo code crime fix to get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's promo code crime fix for an extra 25 cents back on your first gallon of gas.

and Kaylee went upstairs and she screamed because someone's in the room and she ran downstairs. And I kept calling her name and she wouldn't answer and I saw the guy. Oh my god, I just walked the door and I ran downstairs to

we don't know what's going on. All I heard was, I heard her, go upstairs like, okay, I'm going to go to sleep now because she's going upstairs. And you heard who go upstairs? Kaylee and the dog Murphy. And upstairs to the very top?

Yeah, that's where her room is. Okay. And then all of a sudden, her walking up, I heard her scream, and she ran downstairs because she saw someone. That's what I'm pretty sure she said. Someone's here, and she screamed and just ran downstairs, and I called for her name, but I jumped up and locked my door because I was so scared. And then I heard someone in the bathroom, and I heard her crying, and I heard some guys say that you're going to be okay. I'm going to help you. And I kept calling her name, but she wasn't answering.

And then I opened the door for a second, and I saw this guy. and he was not insanely tall but he was wearing all black and like this mask which is covering his forehead and his mouth and then i locked the door and i called and i didn't know what to do this is this is at four yes yes and so i just ran down to you left that right you left here she's that one with the white blinds at the very bottom i ran down there and we talked and i just we just locked the door we didn't think anything of it we're like nothing happens in moscow so we just like tried to go to bed and then we woke up and it was weird because none of them our roommates were up and we called all of them. They were not waking up. And so mean, like, this is weird. So I called and I come over and then that's what all this happened. This is Dylan's initial police interview. She would later tell police that she believed the woman crying that she heard was actually Zana. And despite reporting by other outlets that Dylan said she heard the man say, it's okay, Kaylee. I'm going to help you. Dylan never said that. How old is Kaylee? Over 21. I believe she's 21 or 22. Sorry, I don't remember. That's okay.

you're doing great I'm asking a lot of you so I appreciate you you're doing very well do you know if the other two girls are upstairs right now what we gotta do is we gotta process this whole thing

I I don't know why I be permitted to tell you right now okay let's go back I just want to make sure we're getting everything. So you're sure at about 4 this morning? Yes, it was 4.4.

You first noticed a guy. Well, I first noticed Kay, they go upstairs and scream and run downstairs. So four this morning, Kay, going upstairs. Yeah. To the way top. Yes, to her room. With Murphy, the dog. Okay.

And then you heard Kaylee scream? I heard her scream and run, like, run as fast as she could upstairs, and she said someone's here. She ran downstairs. Yes, I can hear everything. I can hear her run downstairs really fast. And then I heard Murphy barking a lot. Okay. And then I heard her going to the back.

I think it was the bathroom, and I remember her sobbing, and I just remember her in this guy's voice, and I didn't recognize saying, you're going to be okay, I'm going to help you, but it wasn't like, I don't know how to explain it. Like, it wasn't in, like, a nice way. It was, like, a weird way, like a weird tone. You're going to be okay.

I'm going to help you. Yeah. And you didn't hear anything from Kaylee anymore? No, I'm deafly. I didn't hear anything. So then I kept calling with her name. I called, or my son I called Zana, Maddie, and Katie. None of them answered.

So then I opened up the door to look, and that's nice with the guy passed by. He looked at me, but he didn't come towards me or say anything, which was really confusing to me. I don't understand that. And I'm pretty sure I went out the side door. and then I called and said she thought maybe there was a fire or like a firework. We didn't know. She heard this loud noise and there was a light, I guess. And you hear it like a pop, like a bang?

I don't know. Did you hear it bang? It's what she heard. When asked why she believed she was spared after the male suspect saw her, she said she does not know why, and she does not believe anyone ever tried to open her door during the time he was in the house, and he could have easily have done so. and why he would have passed by her room multiple times.

She volunteered that to come through the sliding glass door, the person would have had to have scaled a tall wall. She advised the suspect would have known her room, would have been occupied because he appeared to have known the layout of the house. She also said it could have been someone who was in the house last year when other girls were living in the house. Crime scene investigators processed the scene on King Road, starting the afternoon the murders were reported.

But on December 3rd, they were reported. went back and collected more evidence, including beer cans. One was collected from Bethany's bedroom. Photos were taken of her vanity. Also collected beer cans on the stairs of the home. And in the living room, a black backpack was photographed. It was leaning up against the wall. It's not uncommon for investigators to go back to a crime scene to collect other evidence for testing. Detectives also interviewed a former roommate who had lived at the house but had moved out. The report States. Sergeant Hoxie asked, while she was living there, if there were any break-ins or if she heard of a stalker. There would be times she would wake up and would see the sliding glass

door was unlocked. She thought it might have been from someone forgetting to lock the door after having people over the night before. The former roommate also told detectives, it wouldn't be hard to get into the house. Sergeant Hoxie asked why she thought someone would want to harm her friends. She thought it was someone who was watching. She was always afraid of that. She always had an uneasy, weird feeling at the house, which is one of the reasons why she didn't want to go back. She felt the house was easy to get into and easy to watch because they didn't have any blinds over the windows and the layout of the house. She had said that the sliding glass door was broken at one point. If the door was jiggled just right, the door would

unlock. If the front door was locked, you had to enter the code on the keypad, but if the deadbolt wasn't locked, the door could be opened. I tried to call Maddie and Ethan, Louisiana, and all that I'm at like 4.20. So you called? I tried to call up on me. Maddie? At what time? Um,

4.30 and 4.2. And then just, let's see one. And then even at 422. And then, Kaylee, at 4.31. It's okay, we're close to me. 4.31? Yeah.

So no answer, and then did you go to sleep after that? Yeah, I just kind of fell asleep again. I was, like, half awake. Okay, and then what, turn your day? Did you get out about what time today? I, like, woke up because my job was going to really bad. They took to my abdomen, like, six. or seven and then i just went back to bed so i didn't know one would be up anyways and i didn't

wake up until we called you guys okay moscow moscow at the time this call was generated I remember seeing anybody in there? I just don't know how I always had a lot I said a day. You heard Nunez sigh. You have to imagine he just can't believe what he and the other officers have walked into. This would be a shock, even in a big city.

Is there anything else you want for now? I can just start heading back. Yeah. As far as the Sirishman shows. Good description of the place. Okay. I'll get a couple photos and describe the entire of things. Okay.

What are you doing? Well, get you in town. We've got a quadruple homicide. Okay. Okay. Tom, 11, 22, clean the road. All right. Yep, sounds good.

And then I gotta grab my phone. You're looking for any shell casings, knives, or just any indicia, weapons used something? Weapons, signs of force, or tools to break into building, electronic devices, et cetera, et cetera. The main thing is just get the rough. Just get the body of it. Okay.

This date this time, we're dispatched here. Um, the prosecutor, when you get hold of the on-call prosecutor, tell them what we got. And let them know if we're working on a search warrant and the nature of it. And then we'll go from there. They'll have a long list. Okay. Do you want the easy with your group's names? I don't put them at this point.

Okay. I'm probably do a quick walk through and then, um, go back. Corporal Payne, when he did his first initial walkthrough of the residence, saw the sheath and recognized it immediately as something that we needed to take a look at and start processing. And then when the Idaho State Police came in, they processed the scene. That sheath was immediately turned over, literally driven straight down to the Idaho State Police Lab, Forensics Lab in Meridian, and handed directly to the specialists down there to begin work on it. and they were sort of working on it immediately. The four college students who'd enjoyed a night out after the big football game the day before were dead.

One officer said in his report that Kaylee was unrecognizable because of what had been done to her. Zana Kronodal was found in her second floor bedroom laying on her back. Wearing a sweatshirt and underwear, she was ready for bed and had more than 50 stab wounds. Many were defensive wounds on her hands and arms. Ethan had been killed in his sleep. He was in Zana's bed and had wounds on his.

legs. Moscow police called Idaho State Police to assist them in processing the scene, and we're now seeing some of the photos that CSIs from ISP took. The photos start outside. It's dark. At that time of year, it gets dark around 4.30 in the afternoon. CSIs photographed the vehicles at the house, including Ethan Chapin's Jeep. They also photographed Kaylee's Rangerover. Remember, she went to Moscow that weekend to show off her new car and to hang out with her friends. Zana's car was also photographed and Maddie's car was also examined. The photos show the side of the house where crime scene tape was wrapped around the area. The backyard with a couch and string lights is frozen in time. The string lights would actually remain on for months after the

murders. The sliding glass door potentially held clues and evidence. That's where the man in all black, entered and exited the house. It was photographed from outside and from the inside of the house. The kitchen window was also photographed. There was a handprint on it, and at that time, there was no way to know whether it was relevant to the investigation or not. There was also a footprint in the snow that piqued the interest of investigators. It was documented with a ruler to show the length of the footprint. Could this belong to the killer and did it show his path of travel. Inside the home, investigators also photographed the kitchen. The kitchen was important because the killer entered the home through the sliding glass door in the kitchen.

Anna's DoorDash meal was delivered at 3.59 a.m. The jack-in-the-box bag is on the counter. You can see inside the bag and the food has obviously been removed so we know that Zana at least ate some of it. The bag is clearly marked with her name and her fries from the meal can be seen on top of the microwave. Some are still in the carton. Out of the table shows the beer pong cups and a knife sitting next to it. That is the knife that Hunter Johnson told police he grabbed that morning for protection after discovering Ethan and Zana murdered. This is a closer shot of that knife. Other photos show a different view of the same room. It's the living room with the

sectional couch and the TV and the cubby. There are also photos of the living room that show the beer pong table and that neon good vibe sign. This leads to the stairs to the the third floor, Dylan Mortensen's bedroom, is near the staircase across from the kitchen entryway. And this photo shows the stairs to the third floor at Maddie Mogan's bedroom door to the left at the top of the stairs. So I got a text from Chief Rye on December 19th asking if I could meet with him at Moscow Police Department the next morning. And so I went to Moscow PD the next morning and met Chief Fry out in their lobby and he walked me upstairs and we went into a room that included their entire investigative team. I think there were

maybe 30 or 40 people in that room. So as soon as I walked in, I knew that they had something big and that it was somehow related to Washington State University. So they told me that they had developed a suspect based on DNA at the crime scene and that that suspect was a Washington State University graduate student by the name of Brian Coburger who lived on the WSU campus and graduate student housing. And when I heard the name, it's somewhat of an unusual name. It took me a minute, but then I remembered that I had interviewed Brian Coburger and I told the investigative team I had interviewed him previously for that intern position, and I had his resume and cover later for that position that I could provide to them.

And then after that, I collected information about his apartment where he lived and his graduate assistant student office that he shared with another Ph.D. student student. And in preparation to prepare a search warrant later, it was not a typical occupied type of an apartment. Police department, search warrant, come to the door. This is Coburgers living room. There's a love seat and a TV. There's also a closet. And inside that closet, it was pretty messy.

But what was there was interesting given what we know now. The living room is sparse for sure. There's a love seat and a TV with an entertainment center and a small coffee table. The love seat was across from the TV with a closet to the side. Now, how often Koberger sat and watched TV? We just don't know. Inside the closet, there was a vacuum cleaner. CSIs photographed it and marked it as evidence, and they didn't know at that point what it could contain.

They even photographed the canister that collects all of the stuff that it sweeps up. The closet shelves were full of papers, boxed. and other junk as if it had just been tossed in there haphazardly. It didn't appear to be in any order at all. On the other side of the closet, there was a black nitrile glove. It was photographed, and there were a couple of these. Remember, the killer was described as wearing all black. Also in the closet, a receipt from Walmart for a Dickie's Beanie and receipts from

Marshalls in Moscow from August and September. Investigators also photographed a target receipt from July 4th. that target is in Moscow. Koberger bought a fire stick. Koberger also received a number of parking tickets. Those were found in the apartment and photographed. He had told a professor he found a way

to outsmart the parking attendance. Inside Koberger's Entertainment Center, there were a number of books just kind of shoved in there. The topics all appear to be related to criminology. Investigators laid the books out to photograph them. Some of the titles were discussed in Koberger's papers,

and they seem kind of ironic, given the position he's in now. Mass incarceration on trial. Another book is entitled Why the Innocent Plead Guilty and the Guilty Go Free. One, Let the Lord Sort Them Out. This book was entitled, Unsafe in the Ivory Tower, the Sexual Victimization of College Women. The book discusses how women react when they're sexually victimized. The book was shipped to the owner in 2012, according to the receipt that is with it. Coburger wrote about research topics, offender decision making, emotionality and burglary with theft

slash material gain as the end. In one line, Coburger wrote he intended to go into a prison to conduct research. The topic will be probed by way of in-person semi-structured interviews in a correctional setting. The professor indicated that he or she would have a lot to say about that. Now, Coburger's writing is pretty formal and wonky. He was told by one professor to avoid flowery language. In another assignment, he reviewed a professor's work on sex offender's myopic decision making. He wrote another paper about the death penalty and ethics. A little bit of irony there. Coburger's classmates said he was the only student in their class who supported the death penalty. Coburger's freezer and refrigerator contained a number of vegan foods, including frozen pizza,

tater tots and almond milk and vegan cheese. The freezer looks in parts as if the food is just kind of shoved inside the door. The bedroom showed Coburger's bed and closet. There were a number of shirts hanging in the closet and a few pairs of jeans along with some other items for bedding, but not much else, just some hangers. Also in the bedroom, a computer on the desk. Around the computer, there was a bunch of dust as if it hadn't been cleaned in a while. Then there's the bathroom where Coburger took that selfie the morning of the murders. You can see the mirror where he took that selfie and the tub and tile appear to be very clean. There's no shower curtain. His lawyers would later say he threw it away frequently to prevent mold from growing. Investigators pulled

apart the drain from the tub, probably hoping to find some DNA, but they didn't find any belonging to the victims. The state police collected some items, and we held on to it. They couldn't take it into Idaho yet without a court order since it's across state lines. So we held on to those items until the court order was obtained. And then I know state police came over and picked up the evidence. We're doing a lot of communication with our campus. Students and faculty and staff were concerned and scared. It was during, this was however, during winter break.

So there were not a lot of people on campus at the time. But there were still students that would be coming back for the next semester and parents that had been following this. And so we spent a lot of effort with all of our campus partners with our Dean of Students' Office and Counseling and Psychological Services, the President's office and the Provost's office, just communicating with everyone about what we knew, what measures we're taking to keep our campus safe and, you know, a commitment to keep everyone informed with the information we had. Pullman Police Department released this surveillance video

from the morning of the murders. It shows Brian Coburger's White Alantra driving home that morning at 527 a.m. We'll slow it down for you. Take a look again. This camera is near Coburger's apartment. Eventually, Coburger was moved to Ada County in Boise after winning a change of venue motion.

And then just weeks before jury selection was set to begin, Koeberger asked to change his plea. With respect to Count 1, burglary felony, how do you plead Mr. Kohlberger, guilty or not guilty? Guilty. Prosecutors had planned to use this 3D model of the house on King Road to show jurors the strange layout of the house. The FBI actually built the model,

but now there's no need for the model house. As to count two, murder in the first degree, as it relates to the murder of Madison Mogan, how do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count three, as it relates to murder in the first degree for the murder of Kaylee Gonzalez, how do you plead guilty or not guilty?

Guilty. As to count four, the first degree murder of Xana Kurnodal, pardon me, a human being, how do you plead guilty or not guilty? Guilty. As to count five, the first degree murder of Ethan Chapin, a human being, how do you plead guilty or not guilty?

For the first time, the public is seeing some of what police saw when they went into the home on King Road. The families of Maddie and Ethan are asking a judge to permanently bar the release of the photos of Maddie and Zana's bedrooms. KTVB shared these photos that they received and they show areas inside the home, which are blurred and redacted. There are also images of the sliding glass door that Brian Koberger entered the morning of November 13, 2022, in Texas. Hent on carrying out murder. The photos also show handprints on the back window of the home, but we don't know who those belong to. Now, the Today Show also shared some of these photos from KTVB.

One showed Maddie's boots on the ground. You can also see Red Solo Cups. The photos show a typical college house that one man destroyed, turning it into a horrific crime scene. For what reason, we still don't know. And whatever reason he gave would never make sense. to any of us. The release of the photos came after this photo of Brian Coburger became public. It shows him shortly after his arrest on December 30th, 2022. Pennsylvania State Police

raided his parents' home in Pennsylvania. Coburger was wearing all black that morning. The video from 1112 King Road was recorded from this camera. The house is right next door to where Maddie, Kaylee, Zana, and Ethan were murdered. The Idaho statesman video editors speed up the video by 15 times to show the next time that Koberger pulls on to King Road at 3.38 a.m. and then leaves King Road at 3.40 a.m. I don't know. At 351 a.m., the door dash driver can be seen walking along the street. In her statement to police, she said she had trouble finding the address. She even used a flashlight to try to find the numbers on the house.

She turns around at one point, and you can see her walking back toward 1122 King Road, her flashlight in hand. Then at 356 a.m., the white, Elantra turns on to King Road again and leaves at 358 a.m. This time. frame marks the beginning of the end of Maddie Cayley, Zana, and Ethan's lives at the hands of Brian Coburger. Again, for no reason at all, Brian Coburger, dressed in all black, carrying a K-bar knife, sneaked into the house on King Road through the sliding glass door. The camera that captured,

these images also captured sounds believed to have come from Zana's bedroom. We're going to be able to be. I don't know. I'm going to be able to I'm going to be. The loud thud could have been Zana falling to the ground. Police reports reveal that Zana fought for her life. She had more than 50 stab wounds, many to her arms, hands and face.

She tried to fight off Brian Koberger. Now, all of this evidence in front of a jury would have been hard for the defense to counter. Yes, it was circumstantial evidence, but that can be very powerful. powerful when presented to a jury. All of it, the DNA, the car circling that area that morning and then speeding away would have likely been too much for the defense to counter and the death penalty, a possible firing squad, was on the table. And then there was the cell phone evidence. I spoke with two experts from Celebrate, Heather Barnhart and Jared Barnhart. They examined Koberger's cell phone and laptop. And what they had to say was pretty interesting.

I had the exact same test phone, make model, Android version, AT&T network, like everything aligned perfectly that I said to Jared, we have his exact phone. So we would replicate exactly what we found. So we would find these log files. We work with a really smart person, Josh Hickman, who is an Android expert. And we would reach out to Josh and say, do you know what this log is? What does this mean? So we recreated, not only did he physically powered off.

He turned off Wi-Fi two days prior to the murder. He powered off his phone. It was at 100% battery. We were going to testify with 100% certainty. That's what he did. Ultimately, he used incognito mode in Google Chrome to try to sort of obscure the records that could be recorded about his web history. You can manually go in and just clean things up, clear my history.

Things like that with some time, they do actually delete. But he turned off his Wi-Fi. And so making his device not able to look out there and beacon and talk to networks that he might have been here, he used NordVPN, which in and of itself, it's benign. It's not something that is necessarily a nefarious thing. Security conscious people use VPNs all the time. Sometimes people use VPNs to stream stuff from somewhere else in the world just for fun. But as you start to build this profile of all the behaviors that he did,

especially around the time of the crime, he set up his device to be dumb, minimally collecting data. And so as we started to tackle the evidence from the Android, it wasn't what's here, but very obviously what's not here. And then hyper-focusing on the minutes and hours before and after this void of time where his phone was powered off in the middle of the night. What normal would be, but it stood out to me, I've done investigations for years, and tons of mobile device extraction analysis.

And seeing pornography is not weird. Seeing what someone is interested in is not weird. But the fact that this person had non-consensual, specifically only that, not one other thing that was a consensual sex act. They were all, like, aggressive or drugged. Was there anything else around that time? time period that you found that was out of the norm or unusual on his computer so this is supposed to be his school computer and according to reports that I have read Jared and I did a really good

job of staying out of the media not reading things not listening to things but in our investigative calls he was apparently a good student he didn't miss well shouldn't say good student he was an attentive student who didn't really miss anything he showed up he had huge gaps in usage from October 12th through November 16th on his computer. However, the computer, just like Jared said, everything you do or don't do, the computer is constantly tracking it. So the computer would show that browser was in use, but then there's no history, that the system was in use, but then there's no activity.

So we know that he was cleaning up his tracks. And what that may be, who knows? And that's something that I think a lot of people want to know. do we think would be there if he hadn't cleaned up his digital tracks. The Mag Greek is now closed, but the restaurant served some vegan dishes. Law enforcement has said they found no connection to Coburger and the victims. I asked Heather and Jared about the possibility that Coburger ever visited the Mad Greek. This was the one finding that was released to the prosecution that they came back and said

the defense didn't like it, which made me think we were on to something. This is great. So there is a Google Map cache file that was recovered from the Android that showed Mad Greek. And it looked like, I actually have it in front of me, it looked almost like a review. Or if you think about if you Google in Google Maps and you look up restaurants nearby,

you could call it, you could look at get directions, you could look at a menu. So it looks like all of those things were available. Now the issue, could it have Wi-Fi in that file, absolutely, but I don't know. The issue is Mad Greek. Their Wi-Fi name was Mad Greek. So it's not helpful to see what was in that listing.

But what Jared and I had looked at a few times and I planned to keep testing this to figure it out exactly, if the prosecution said, Heather, is it likely that the user was in Moscow and on Google map said nearby restaurants or bars? And Mad Greek appeared? I would say yes. But if the defense came up and said, Heather, is it possible that from Pullman, Washington,

the suspect searched for restaurants in Moscow and this came up? Could that happen? I would say yes. So it's not like we can tie him to the location of Mad Greek, but Mad Greek. He physically saw Mad Greek on his phone. He looked up a lot of home invasions, burglaries, co-ed killings, serial killers. there was one search. I remember the first time we found it. I was sitting at the FBI and Jared was not. And I was on the phone with him. I saw something weird, Danny Rowling.

And he was like, wait a second, what's that name? And Jared looked it up and he's like, he's the Gainesville Ripper. He's a co-ed killer. Same knife. Like, there were a lot of details there that were just too eerie. And then as Jared dove into the phone, there's even more. Do you want to share that? Yeah, so again.

And I think that was November, right? The first hit for Danny Rawling? Yeah, I think so. November of 2022. Yes. On Christmas, 2022, so after the crime, late at night and into the early morning of the 26th, he was just like working through serial killers. And the site was specifically serial killer timelines.

And so it just basically has this list of a bunch of serial killers. And it seemed based on the timing of it that he was just clicking one, scanning, reading, and then going back and clicking the next one. And literally for a period of time, just reading about serial killer timelines. And it's literally a breakdown of, like, how they were raised, what their childhood was like with their parents, that somebody killed a dog when they were young or that they were beaten by the, like, it is a timeline of these people's whole lives leading up to what ultimately is them getting caught for being serial killers. but he did that into the wee hours of the morning after Christmas Day. He did search for Danny Rawling, and that one's a really chilling search because Danny Rowling used a K-bar, he sexually assaulted his victims, and he was wearing all-black, and he entered a couple of their apartments through sliding glass doors.

I did some research on that. He also searched for Harvey Glatman, Robert Hansen, Tommy Lynn Sells. Did you find any searches for Ted Bundy? Yes. We're telling the PDF, right? Yep. Ted Bundy was in this same search time. Texting, calling. Yeah, I mean, there were numerous times where it seemed like his mother was basically saying,

East Coast time saying, I'm going to bed. And then he was West Coast time, you know, still staying up and doing whatever. But it was normal that it was the most, you know, like consistent conversations between them. And there were a lot of exclamation points, too, from his mom to him. because he would confirm, like, call now. And she would say, Brian, I said I will call it 5.30, exclamation point. And he's like, now, question mark. And she would write 5.30 exclamation point.

He just had extreme obsessive behaviors. Like with his mother and father, with the abnormal porn searches, with his serial killers, wiretapping. Like even some of the terms psychopath, paranoia. One thing I would say to any family, I believe by looking at his computer that he was paranoid in the end. And I think Jared can say the same thing from looking at his phone. It's not, I don't think he was just resting easy thinking he got away with these murders. I think he knew that people were coming for him.

Now, Heather and Jared also have some thoughts on that disturbing thumbs up selfie that Brian Koberger took six hours, after the murders where he is in his bathroom, Jared noticed something specifically about Koberger's hands. Yeah, that this thumbs up with sort of the Band-Aid. As soon as I saw it, it catches your eye, you know, because his knuckles look just so white. And like it reminded me of like scrubbing your hands for days to try to get something off.

And then there's this like Band-Aid that's visible. That's, you know, like just barely visible in the picture. the hoodie picture as well. It's been like sort of a popular one in the case as well. The general behavior, as I looked at it, I would have said that criminology major and studies of criminology does not excuse you for the amount of searching, the times of day.

This wasn't a healthy, you know, like, I'm doing this from my college class type activity. It seemed very different. I think the smoking gun, there really wasn't one, but for his device, was his bookend that he put around these killings. To be awake at that time of the morning, turning your phone off and then turning it back on. And there's plenty of other records that we didn't access. you know, like the FBI did some sort of cell record mapping for where his phone was based on the cell towers, right? That wasn't anything that we were doing.

But the moment that he turned his phone back on, you know, that they can start to take over and say, and this is where he was. Right. And so for that period of time where these people were killed, he was awake and had turned his phone off. And in my opinion, had prepared by killing his Wi-Fi, using VPN, clearing on a search history. to do this. So he was obsessed in your mind with serial killers and had had basically been planning this for some time. I mean, he bought, he bought the knife,

we know in March of 2022, but then maybe actually plotting this, Heather, you're talking October, so a month prior. So, you know, he might have had the thought in his mind in March, but the actual maybe planning, and selection could have started possibly in October. Yeah, the gap of why that far back only on browser was weird to me. It didn't make much sense. And I'm not sure if that's possibly when he decided he was going to be more of an incognito browser.

Who knows? It was just really bizarre behavior. And then there were also, Jared, do you remember all of the, I saw the show or movie American and psycho just a few times and how much the guy loved himself and would take selfies in the mirror and how clean he would want to be and just examining his body. He seemed to do those same types of things. Yeah, lots of like flexing muscles, selfies half clothed, like that. There's numerous instances of that on his phone. There was also, he spent a lot of time on Reddit and And especially post-crime, he was, I mean, there's tons of history of him looking into

like the Idaho murders on Reddit. And that's actually another thing that stood out is this wasn't just someone who was like, hey, I'm interested in the case. He was going and downloading the Moscow press releases to his device, like not just taking a look at what the news said, but like almost like saving everything that they populated. There was a Reddit post that it appears. that he made based on his emails, where he was looking for ex-cons to participate in some study.

And people were like emailing him. And ultimately, you see Reddit suspends him, which I think was at time of rest and notification to the world. But there was also a really interesting sort of pattern of things where he read something on the news that said, police still looking for Hyundai Latra, white in color this year to this year. make a model. Within minutes, he searches for a car detailing place and then starts to shop for

used cars. So it was almost like, I realized that they know my car, I have to get rid of it and get something different. You know, so like, again, does a normal person look to clean their car before they sell it? Sure. He spent a lot of time on Reddit and especially post-crime. He was, I mean, there's tons of history of him looking into like the Idaho murder. on Reddit. And that's actually another thing that stood out is this wasn't just

someone who was like, hey, I'm interested in the case. He was going and downloading the Moscow press releases to his device. Like, not just taking a look at what the news said,

but like almost like saving everything that they populated. Brian Koberger is serving his four consecutive life sentences in Idaho's maximum security institution. I want to turn now to Larry Levine. He is the director and founder of Wall Street Prison Consultants,

also the author. of prison politics 101, a how to guide to get along and get by behind prison walls. Larry, welcome back to crime fix. I appreciate you coming back on. I want your response to all of this news about Brian Koberger allegedly, I say allegedly because like I haven't heard back from the prison yet, being tortured and tormented through the vents by other inmates in J Block. yeah well he's not being tortured it's more of like okay psychologically tortured but this stuff

happens they're telling him they're going to kill him they're going to get to his family they're going to rape him they're yelling through the vents they're pounding on the walls they're getting into his head but when it comes down to it they can't you know there's nothing that can be done they can't get to him and the guy's in prison he killed four kids what does he expect? He doesn't have a popular crime or anything. A bank robberer would get more respect than him, a drug dealer. This guy's got nothing coming and think of it like this. The cops hate him too. There's no question about that. And it's like when I was in custody, we had people that were there for kitty porn. And they would lie and say they were there for fraud or

drugs or something. And then the cops would be the ones that would tell the inmates what they were there for because the cops didn't like him either. So the inmates could torment him or torment them. So the cops are under no real obligation to do anything to stop this. He's just going to have to suck it up now for the rest of his life. That's a fact. The reporting is, And, you know, we heard from Chris McDonough earlier in the program, you know, he is getting this word. He has a lot of sources. He's a former law enforcement officer. You know, he is getting the word that the Coburger is complaining about this, that he doesn't like it.

You know, oh, well, I mean, this is kind of how prison works. I mean, there's like, you come in and you're a well-known defendant, you know, there's going to be a level of hazing. He is in J Block. He's in long-term restrictive housing. So he is in a cell 23 hours a day. He gets out in the rec yard for one hour a day. Every time he's moved anywhere in this prison, he is in restraints. And he gets to shower every other day.

So, you know, he's not in a good spot. And I'm assuming even though there's going to be some bad dudes in J-block, because if you're in long-term restrictive housing, you're there for a long time. there's a reason you're in those, you know, cells 23 hours a day. They're probably like, you know, the prison, the prison guards are probably like, well, this is just how it goes. You're going to kind of get hazed. You're going to get razzed. And I'm assuming it's their job to keep him safe and to keep everything in order.

But they don't care if people are harassing him through the, the vents. Cole Burger's just going to have to suck it up. Now he's facing the realities of prison life. There was a Supreme Court justice, God, 50 years ago, I think it was Thorough Good Marshall, that said that an inmate civil rights do not stop at the prison gates. So he has some civil rights, but that's the right to be safe. He is safe. He's locked in a cell. These other people can't get to him. He's filing grievances about being harassed and being hazed. Big deal. I mean, nobody cares. But eventually, I mean, he should be concerned about, I don't know, scared, concerned. He should be concerned about his life for the rest of his life because sooner or later, someone will get to him. Look at Jeffrey Dahmer. Look at Whitey Holder. Look at Ramirez, the Nightstalker. All these people were like in secure custody. And they got to every one of them. And maybe this is going through. through Coleberger's head. I don't know. But every little noise he hears the rumors, the

pounding, and it's all like going round and around in his head. And I imagine it is driving him nuts. And somebody will take him out and that person will get folk hero status for the rest of their life. I wanted to ask you about that because it is the prison's job, the Department of corrections to keep him safe it's their job to keep all of the prisoners safe but we know the reality of that you especially larry know the reality of that i've seen it in other high-profile cases they they can't always keep these people safe and sometimes they transfer them out of state they have these interstate compact deals or what have you lots there's an example yes um and so i've saw i saw it i'm watching it right now unfold in the

Pike County Massacre case in Ohio they have transferred two of the defendants in that case out of state we don't even know where Jake Wagner has been transferred because they couldn't keep him safe in an Ohio prison and he's considered a snitch so I'm kind of like I'm thinking to myself if he's in long-term restrictive housing and he's in a cell 23 hours a day he gets out in the rec yard one hour a day I'm wondering, does that mean he's kind of isolated in that rec yard? Where could he possibly be in danger? Because maybe like five years down the road, they move him into Jen Pop. No. Yikes. Where could he be in danger? Maybe.

Maybe a spaceship will land outside your studio, too. There's never, they're never, ever, ever, ever, and a million ever is going to put this into general population. they know immediately what will happen to him. But here's what will happen. You brought up an interesting point. Let's go five years down the road. It's not as popular.

It's not as high profile. Things slip through. Somebody has an opportunity. A door. Oh, my God. Somebody left the door unlocked. He was left unsupervised in the shower and someone else got in there. Somebody got to his food and put glass or poison in his food.

it's just a matter of time that someone will get to him i mean you can manipulate staff in my book prison politics 101 i teach inmate i sent a copy of it into him i teach inmates how to manipulate staff how to manipulate other in other inmates so a situation will occur that somebody eventually will get to him and that's a fact and there's nothing anybody can do about it absolutely nothing when i look at brian coberger this is not somebody who was out on the street uh doing a drug hit or something to that effect you know this is not like a a gang murder a street murder this is somebody who meticulously in his mind i mean he didn't do a good enough job to not get caught but he did a meticulous job of planning this he wanted to go into a house and kill people he was

determined to do that and we're learning more details about this and he's somebody who is like studying to get a phd so you know this is not some guy that you i think would typically think of as being a typical j block resident right so i look at it that way this is not somebody who thought i'm assuming he didn't think he was going to get caught or hoped he didn't so he is like totally probably out of his element even though he's got the criminal mind and he's in the right place he is out of his element in j block absolutely because he's with real criminals and correct and he is a real criminal but you know what i'm saying is but all right take the person who goes and commits like i'm getting a lot of people who have p pp fraud from covid they mistakenly filled out an application

and signed their name they made poor choices he knows Kowingly killed these people, and I don't think that Kohlberger, as much as I think he's a piece of crap, I don't think he went into that house knowing he was going to kill four people, because he had really no idea who was there, what room they would be in. He stumbled upon these people, and he killed people as he went through the house because they knew he was there. They discovered him. now do you really think he went there with the intent of killing her maybe not maybe he went there with the intent of raping her but in his mind because the guy's cuckoo things got out of control one thing led to another i'm not fully convinced he went in there with the intent of killing four people i mean why didn't he i agree with you i i agree with you i don't think

he went in there to kill four people i think he maybe went in there targeting one and it's in his it's spiraled out of control. I think he's not as smart as he thinks he is. But I want to go back to you sending him the book. You sent him the book. Did you ever hear back from him? No, I never heard anything back from him. I know that he got the book. The book's on Amazon because what like I sent it to puff daddy and Luigi and it got returned. I sent it to Just Lane Maxwell. She got it in. And when they return it and they reject it to Amazon. I get a notice of rejection, I never got a rejection notice on Colberger, so I know he got it. And he has a lot of time on his hands. So maybe he did read it. He should live by my book because this might just save his life one day. The families of Maddie, Kaylee, Zana, and Ethan, they're still grieving, and they're doing their best in their own ways to move forward, remembering their beautiful children. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix.

I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.