Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Bryan Kohberger: 3 Key Developments In Idaho Student Murders

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

The judge in Bryan Kohberger's case issued a key ruling this week about a survey of prospective jurors that was the subject of fierce debate during two recent hearings. The ruling from Judge John Judge came days after Kohberger provided additional information about his possible alibi. Kohberger maintains his innocence in the murders of four University of Idaho students in November 2022. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy talks with defense attorney Bill Gallagher and Idaho Statesman investigative reporter Kevin Fixler about the developments in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.Get 50% off of confidential background reports at https://www.truthfinder.com/lccrimefix and access information about almost anyone!Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guests:Kevin Fixler  https://twitter.com/kfixlerBill Gallagher https://twitter.com/AGCrimLawCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoAudio Editing - Brad MaybeGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@LawandCrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He's badgering the witness. He's misstating his testimony, and I object. The witness testified he didn't care if the information was correct, Judge. Following contentious hearings in Brian Koberger's case over a survey of prospective jurors. Now let's take down the toe a little bit. Judge Judge issues a key ruling and a former police officer joins Koberger's defense team in the hope of showing he didn't kill four University of Idaho students. I have three key developments in Brian Koberger's case. Thanks for joining me for Crime

Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. There's been a little bit of movement in Brian Koberger's case. Thanks for joining me for Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. There's been a little bit of movement in Brian Koberger's case, just a little bit. Remember that big blow up over an expert for Koberger's defense team reaching out to prospective jurors and asking them questions about what they knew about the case? Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson was hopping mad and wanted the survey stopped. Here's what he said about it. So I don't want this to become personal between Ms. Taylor and myself. We are not alleging Ms. Taylor has done anything wrong. We are dealing with reality that this survey was conducted on, as we understand, 400, I'll say, innocent citizens of Latah County who were forced that

information that they may or may not have had about this case before they were called by the survey takers. And they are loaded questions. Some of the questions are factually wrong. They simply aren't true. That's what we're here about. One specific question that Dr. Brian Edelman, a trial consultant hired by the defense, posed to 400 jurors in Latah County contained false information. You acknowledged false that Mr. Coburger allegedly stalked one of the victims. That's false. You know that to be false. Which one? That Mr. Coburger allegedly stalked one of the victims. Yes, I was trying not to say that. But you knew that was false. I did. Dr. Adelman explained his methods and said there was a reason he asked the questions.

He was testing for bias in Latah County, which has a population of about 40,000 people. That's pretty small. Thompson took a very sarcastic tone with Dr. Edelman after Edelman said he felt his integrity had been questioned by Thompson. I'm sorry if you're feeling hurt about us reading this issue. I see you were almost breaking down a few minutes ago when you were talking about slide number 33, all the slides number 35. That's not the intent. And certainly, I'm surprised to see that reaction from an experienced expert such as yourself. So I apologize for that. I accept your apology. But the idea of after working really hard 15 years to develop a credible reputation and being told, watching on a Zoom, that I am tainting the jury pool

and poisoning the jury pool and contaminating the jury pool by doing what's required and standard, I'm not crying. I'm angry. Yes, it doesn't. And please go ahead and be as angry as you like as you continue your work for the defense in this case. Meanwhile, the defense took offense to Thompson accusing them of violating the court's non-dissemination order, an order the defense actually requested. We didn't violate the non-dissimilation order. You know, the information that now he's calling facts, you know, it's flip-flopping between whether or not it's a false fact or a fact that's in the survey. The information that was put in the survey is based on the public record and information, the way that state and state actors put information

into the public record that has now been disseminated. And we have not violated that order. And I do resent being accused of that. Now, after all of that back and forth, the sarcasm, the hand-wringing, and the tension. Judge Judge has ruled that the defense expert's survey can continue without modification. Judge Judge writing, information that formed the basis for six of the nine questions at issue came from the probable cause affidavit, a document filed in this case that is not sealed. The defense may continue its survey without modifications to the survey questions. Judge Judge also wrote, the non-dissemination order does not prohibit the attorneys involved in the case or their agents from making extrajudicial statements about

information contained in the public record. Judge Judge also wrote that that question containing false information, the one discussing Koberger possibly stalking one of the victims and following them on social media, the subject matter of those questions has been discussed in, quote, media items, but are now part of the public court record, so they don't violate the non-dissemination order. The family of victim Kaylee Gonsalves, of course, has not been shy about sharing their feelings about what's been going on in the case. In a statement, the family threw a little bit of shade at Judge Judge, quote, with the most far-reaching gag order in the country not allowing a victim's attorney to

speak while letting the president of the University of Idaho write a book detailing facts of the case, the judge does not seem to understand the gag order himself. Now his logic is since some of the survey questions violated the gag order, they are part of the public record. So he is now allowing the defense to continue to do a survey that may potentially taint a jury. The survey is a ruse being used by the defense in an attempt to keep the trial out of Latah County. We pray the trial stays with the citizens of Latah County and justice is served. I want to bring Bill Gallagher in. He's defended 13 death penalty cases. Bill, you and I talked weeks and weeks before this big brouhaha about the jury survey that the defense should conduct a survey, in your opinion. Then they

got called on the carpet for it. Now the judge is saying, okay, in your opinion. Then they got called on the carpet for it. Now the judge is saying, okay, you can continue with it. So what's your reaction to the judge's ruling? The reaction is, I think, that everyone sort of may have overreacted before they found out what was exactly going on. I'm sure the report judge immediately that the defense was somehow poisoning the jury pool and had given them information that the judge heard from public view. And now upon consideration and looking at exactly what these jurors were given to, listening to the arguments, the majority of those questions were taken from public documents. And that you really weren't trying to poison the jurors, but really find out what they're thinking. They know about this case and can they even walk into the courtroom and give

this gentleman a fair trial? The prosecutor contended he wasn't upset about the survey, but he said he was upset and the judge appeared to be upset as well about the fact that there was information included in the survey that wasn't true. You know, the question about, did you hear that Brian Koberger was stalking one of the victims? And then there was a question about whether or not he was following them on social media or Instagram or something to that effect. They implied that probably wasn't true as well. So, you know, is that that big of a deal though? He's contacting 400 people out of 40,000 in Latah County. He gets up there and he explains what his methodology was. And I mean, this is kind of how a survey would work. I mean, yeah, the information was false. He's saying,

look, I don't care you did a survey, but you put false information out there and this violated the non-dissemination order. What was your take on that argument? Okay. So there may be lots of strategic reasons for the way the questions were asked of those jurors. I'm sure this was not just three lawyers sitting in an office and saying, hey, what would you like to ask? This is an expert in the field, and I'm sure there's a strategy behind asking those specific questions to get information to this judge about whether a fair trial can happen in this county, because that's really what they're trying to find out. It's take a survey, come back and say, look at these results and the answers we're getting

indicate that this is not a place where you can now get a fair trial because. I get the anger, but I think it comes, you're not poisoning the case. You are not affecting the prosecutor's ability to try this case. And if they were so concerned about this getting in the media, then this would have been some form of a sealed proceeding. You wouldn't have the entire public in there giving them the opportunity to repeat that same information in newspapers, on radio, on podcasts, if you were that concerned about it with the prosecutor. So I'm not necessarily sure this prosecutor, that anger or level of discomfort is truly genuine.

I want to take a short break from this update on Brian Koberger's case to tell you about something that can help you learn more about the people you interact with every day in your life. It's a great website and it's called truthfinder.com. Truthfinder is one of the world's largest public learn more about the people you interact with every day in your life. It's a great website, and it's called truthfinder.com. Truthfinder is one of the world's largest public record search services. Truthfinder has just one goal, and that is to help you and me learn the truth about the people we meet each day. Here's how it works. Just log on to truthfinder.com and put in a name. Within minutes, maybe even seconds, you will get reports that include phone numbers, addresses, friends, family, and criminal records of the people you're searching and even more. It will also show you sex offender statuses for people who might live nearby.

The cases I cover each day make it incredibly clear that you have to do everything you can to keep you and your loved ones safe. So right now, Crime Fix viewers can get 50% off of confidential background reports at truthfinder.com slash lccrimefix. Log on to truthfinder.com slash lccrimefix and start accessing information about almost anyone. Bill, Dr. Edelman said in his testimony, he'd never seen a prosecutor get up and refer the public to a document, a public cause affidavit saying, we'll be publishing that and you can get information from there and see the facts, et cetera. I've seen prosecutors do a lot worse than that at press conferences. So did you really think that was a big deal? No, I don't think it was really a big deal. I think, though, that what the expert was probably

trying to do is just push back a little bit on the prosecutor saying you two have been disseminating information out into the public that they've used or misused. So you really shouldn't be too concerned about some of the questions we're asking these people out in the public. Of course, this whole survey is about the defense wanting to move the trial out of Latah County, and that motion will be heard later in the summer after the survey is complete and after the defense and the prosecution can file briefing on the matter. Now to the second recent development. Brian Koberger supplied information to the court as part of his possible alibi. He says he was out driving around

the morning that Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Gonsalves, Ethan Chapin, and Zanna Kernodle were brutally stabbed in a house off campus. We knew the part about him being out driving. We knew about that months ago, but now there is newer information about his habit of going out late at night to gaze at the stars and the moon and to even go hiking or running. And an expert who the defense says is helping Koberger with his defense is a former police officer. Cy Ray's bio says he spent 20 years in law enforcement as a SWAT operator, a homicide sergeant, and he also directed fugitiveions. Now he works as an expert, and he also hosts a true crime podcast called Socialite Crime Club. Ray typically works for the prosecution,

but not in this case. He's working for the defense. The defense says that Ray's testimony will show that, quote, Koberger's mobile device was south of Pullman, Washington and west of Moscow, Idaho on November 13th, 2022, that Brian Koberger's mobile device did not travel east on the Moscow-Pullman Highway in the early morning hours of November 13th. That's the long road that connects Pullman to Moscow. The defense says that Koberger went to Hawaii Park in Washington. It was a place where he went to spend a lot of time. Well, the prosecution said that Koberger's phone was likely off between the hours of 2.47 and 4.48 a.m. That's the time period in which they believe the murders occurred. The defense will rely on Cy Ray to tell the jury

there was nothing nefarious about the phone not communicating with the network that morning, that it wasn't Koberger's white Elantra seen at the King Road house the morning of the murders. Now, the Gonsalves family responded again on Facebook. Quote, we have been waiting on this information for months and it has finally arrived. It is so hard not knowing anything about the case and you find you have to cling to dates, motions, and hearings in order to figure out anything. A big part of this has been waiting on the alibi information. Now that it is here, we feel even more confident in the prosecution of the defendant. The defense's claim is that the defendant was driving late at night, hiking slash running, and stargazing. We are not sure why it has taken over a year for this to

come out as those don't seem to be complicated activities. We believe that if this alibi had any weight, it would have been submitted months ago. It is also in direct conflict with the probable cause affidavit that states that the defendant's phone was turned off between 2.47 a.m. and 4.48 a.m. So if the defendant was driving around and there is cell phone information that he was in a different place, it would be either before or after the times of the murders. Hence, not really an alibi. We continue to look forward to justice in this case and can now put this part of the proceeding behind us. Thank you for all your support for our family. And now our third key

development is an update on how much this huge murder case has cost. And it sounds really harsh to even talk about it because four young people were murdered, but this is a big case. Federal and state agencies came together to assist in the investigation and the cost is a grim reality with taxpayers footing the bill and the governor of Idaho allocating money to help the city of Moscow cover the cost. Kevin Fixler is an investigative reporter with the Idaho Statesman, and he did some digging and came up with some numbers. I want to talk to you a little bit about the cost piece that you wrote. There had been some other people who had submitted requests to the court. And as you know, it's been really frustrating covering this case because everything with any substance to it is filed under seal.

But you were able to actually get some documents. Other people had requested documents from the court and they were denied about the billing and things of that nature. So tell me a little bit about the cost piece that you did and what you found when you did some digging about how much this has cost the state of Idaho. I really didn't rely upon the court system in order to get these records. I went to almost a dozen public agencies between the University of Idaho, Latak County, Moscow City, on and on, Idaho State Police, in order to get all this information. I confirmed details with the governor's office, was able to vet information through the legislature and the funds they had guaranteed to the university. So I filed across a number of different Idaho

agencies. I did get a couple documents from the court, but really didn't rely upon them. And the high level takeaway from this is that already, as far as known costs, the Koberger case or the Idaho 4 case, however you want to think about it, the investigation before we knew who Brian Koberger was, we stand currently at just over $3.6 million. That includes the money to house him in the jail beneath the courthouse, includes the costs for his public defense, which is actually paid for by the citizens of Latak County. And it includes, you know, 600 hours of overtime that Moscow PD worked during the first six or seven weeks ahead of his arrest. It backfills a lot of the funds that Idaho State Police had expended during that investigation. One thing it does not include is any information about how much money the FBI contributed or spent. The federal agency doesn't speak to that.

They don't, as a matter of policy, they don't disclose any of their methods, including the costs associated with such investigations. The cost is not going to go down. It's just going to continue to go up as well. So we're at least a year out from trial. There's no trial date set yet. So that cost is certainly going to climb. And as you mentioned, the citizens of Latah County are footing the bill for his defense. So as the trial date approaches,

there will be increased, I'm sure, security costs added as well because people such as you and me will be traveling there. There will be a lot of media there and just an enhanced security presence wherever the trial might be held. Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. We still don't know if there will be a venue change. That's something that defense is seeking and the prosecution is fighting. That relates to that survey issue that we don't still have an order from the judge on that. But to your points, you know, this is a death penalty case. Idaho is one of the 24 states with an active death penalty option. Prosecutors have already said they intend to seek that. And what I will say is there are many studies, including in Washington and Oregon,

our neighboring states. There's another in Oklahoma. And repeatedly, it shows that death penalty cases cost, at least on average, a million dollars more than in cases where there's a murder and it's aggravated and there's an opportunity to seek the death penalty. In those cases that prosecutors did not seek that, it was much less money. And that doesn't even contemplate my story and also this conversation, the millions of dollars that will be spent over the next decades if he is convicted and the appeals process that will ensue. So according to the information that Kevin has compiled and the numbers he has, this case has cost taxpayers at least $3.6 million.

And after Kevin and I spoke, he got a little bit more information. And it turns out, on top of that $3.6 million that he discussed, the flight transporting Koberger from Pennsylvania to Idaho costs more than $22,000. And the cost, as I mentioned, will continue to rise. And that's it for this edition of Crime Fix. As we wrap up those three recent developments in Brian Koberger's case, I'm Ann Janette Levy. Thanks so much for being with us. We'll see you back here next time.