Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Delphi Killer's Wife Breaks Silence on Gruesome Murders

Episode Date: August 11, 2025

Richard "Ricky" Allen is serving life sentences for the 2017 murders of Abby Williams and Libby German in Delphi, Indiana. Now a new doscuseries on Hulu is examining the case and features interviews with Abby and Libby's family and friends. Allen's wife, Kathy Allen, is also speaking about the case for the very first time publicly. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy looks at what she said along with Ricky's multiple confessions with Allen's attorney, Andrew Baldwin, in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:Take your personal data back with Incogni! Use code CRIMEFIX at the link below and get 60% off an annual plan: http://incogni.com/crimefixHost:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest:Andrew BaldwinProducer:Jordan ChaconCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondry Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Abby and Libby had gone on a walk, but we went to pick them up. They weren't there. A new series dives deep into the Delphi murders, the case against Richard Allen and the stories of Abby's and Libby's families left to mourn the girls. Plus, Alan's wife Kathy speaks publicly for the first time. My name is Kathy Allen, and I am the same. spouse of Richard Allen.

I look at what the series reveals and talk with one of Allen's trial attorneys. The guy on the Snapchat video, bridge guy. I mean, can you admit that it does sound like Richard Allen? Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. February 13, 2017 is a day that changed the small town of Belfi, Indiana forever. the city of nearly 3,000 people lost its innocence and was thrust into the international spotlight. After two young girls went out for a walk on a trail and never came home, I've told

you about the Delphi murders many, many times here on crime fix and now a new docu series on Hulu produced by ABC News Studios is taking a deep dive into the case. The man who has been convicted of murdering Abby Williams and Libby German is in prison serving life sentences for the crimes but his wife Kathy is standing by him and speaking for the first time publicly in capturing their killer, the girls on the high bridge. But just a quick refresher on the case, Abby Williams and Libby German, they were best friends that Monday they happened to be off school and it was warmer out than normal. So Abby and Libby, they asked Libby's older sister if she would drop them off at the trails, so off they went. Little did Libby's family know it would be the last time they would ever see the girls. No one could reach Libby

when they tried to call her cell phone a couple of hours later and that wasn't normal. The only clue at that point? This photo of Abby on the Monon High Bridge. Abby and Libby were reported missing that night and a search started. The two best friends were found the next day near Deer Creek. Both of their throats had been slashed.

Libby was nude and appeared to have tried to protect her throat. Abby was wearing Libby's clothes and her throat had been cut just once. This crime would be terrifying and shocking. if it happened anywhere. In a small town like Delphi, it was practically unimaginable. This is not something that would happen in a place like Delphi, Indiana, but it did. A killer was on the loose and no one knew who it was. Wasn't their neighbor, their father, their friend. And then a break. Days after the murders, Libby had recorded a man on the bridge. The search for bridge guy went on for years, and people thought it would only take days, weeks

at most. But the video wasn't crystal clear. Only a small portion of the video was released to the public back in 2017. It was enhanced. I'll show you that longer version later. In the new series, Richard Allen's wife, Kathy, she calls him Ricky, said that years had passed, and then Indiana State Police came knocking on their door. She describes him as a family man. She said that Ricky was a was off work on February 13th and she came home from work and he was laying on the couch and the news came on about Abby and Libby being missing. Then she said Ricky told her that he was out on the trail that day. She told him he should call police and he did so. Kathy said Ricky met with a conservation officer in a parking lot and they heard nothing more. Kathy said they didn't walk on the trail anymore. She said that years passed and then officers came knocking on their door to talk to Ricky. Kathy Shank, a clerk, volunteering, had found Richard Allen's name on a report that was filed away incorrectly and marked for follow-up. In October 2022, Indiana State Police came

looking for Richard Allen. I can tell you that if that picture was, I mean, you can, you can, you can sit and take anybody and say, well, if they were wearing this and wearing that, that could be done. If that picture was taken from one of the girls' phones, it's, here's the problem with that. I've never met him. No, but listen, here's the problem with that. You know why you can put a lot of people and say they're wearing blue jeans and a blue coat, but you know what the difference is? No, you said you were there. Well, sure, I didn't. We have people that saw you. Okay. Richie said you were out on the bridge yourself. There aren't that many people that saw me.

I mean, I'm sure I didn't miss that many people. If they walked behind me, I guess. Kathy Allen said that her husband, he knew something wasn't right as he was being interrogated. That interview was on October 13th, 2022. Then 13 days later, Richard Allen went to pick up his car, and the questioning resumed. Okay. So we took your gun, your 40-Cal, Cig, and we sent it down there to the lab to have it matched with an item that we located on February the 14th when we found the girls. Okay. And that item was a 40 caliber Winchester round.

We found that at the scene. Okay. The extraction marks on that round match your gun. Perfect. So... This is... Okay. Just hear me out.

I'm just trying. So this is the round. Okay. There's the extraction works. That's the best picture of them. There's actually three of them. I don't even know how my bullet would have been. bullet would have gotten out there if that's my bullet there's it's without a doubt

that this is very okay scientific so let me show you a picture of this round where it was found that's the round right there it hadn't been out there very long that is Liberty's foot it's within six inches of one of the dead girls bodies there's no way it there is I'm telling you there's not how how do how did that round get there right I don't know how the round got there. What I'm telling you is, if that is truly what you're saying it is, it's not my round.

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The new Incogny Unlimited feature even allows users to customize their data removals and tackle the toughest of breaches with the help of a team of privacy specialists. So if you care about your online safety, and you should, take your personal data back with incognite. Use the code crime fix below on the screen and get 60% off an annual plan. Ricky Allen's wife, Kathy, then enters the interview room. Don't know. How did you have a bullet from your gun get out there? I don't know. Because they said it came from our gun. I know that's what they're, believe me. That's what they're telling me. But how did it get tear from me?

I don't know. They said there was one in your box about your dresser to imagine it. They showed me that picture too. I can't explain it. And I don't... I can't either. They need to ask me and I don't know how to answer that. Richard Allen is charged with murdering Abby and Libby more than five years after the murders.

For a reason, not because... You're trying to tell somebody. You're trying to tell me. that i'm not making this round up rick it is what it is i'm done talking arrest me the hulu series touches on some of richard allen's jailhouse confessions he called his mother and his wife several times from the prison where he was being held and confessed i just wanted to apologize to you what's going on for you i did it you know i did it you know i did it what i killed i being I killed Abby and Libby.

No, you didn't. Yes, I did. No, you didn't, Darren. Yes, I did. Don't say, I don't know why. No, you didn't. No, you didn't, dear. You're not feeling wild.

There's something wrong. They've messed up your meds or something there. No. me I evidently did it no you didn't why would you say that because maybe I did no you didn't dear I think I did no you didn't they are screwing with you there and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it there's something wrong they're messing with you. They are messing with your mind. And that wasn't a one-off. Ricky Allen said that he did it many, many times. His lawyers would say it was due to the conditions he was being kept

in pre-trial, a maximum security prison, not a county jail, and he was being medicated. I did it. Captain. What? I did it. You still love me? Yes, dear, but you didn't do it. Allen's trial was held in the fall of 2021 with a jury from another county. The jurors saw the entire video of Bridge Guy recorded by Libby German. Take a look. See, this is the path.

There's no path going there, so we have to get on. The video is haunting. It shows Abby and Libby in their final moments. And you hear one of them say at the end, there's no path and a man saying, guys, down the hill. Ultimately, the jury believed that Richard Allen was that man. The new Hulu series also features interviews with Abby and Libby's family and friends,

their lives forever shattered by losing the girls. In the series, Kathy Allen says she wants true justice for the girls, and she says her husband is innocent. I want true justice for Abby and Libby, but it should not be at the expense of an innocent person. We know this bridge guy took the girls, and they proved Richard Allen was bridge guy. I want to bring in Andy Baldwin. And he is one of Richard Allen's trial attorneys. He defended him at his trial where he was ultimately convicted of murdering Abby and Libby. Thank you so much, Andy, for joining me.

I really appreciate it. First off, I want to get your thoughts on this new docu series, which has premiered recently on Hulu. Yeah, we were approached after the trial by many, you know, different formats to participate. and some type of documentary or something. And what appealed to us about the Hulu was really the attachment of ABC News to it because what we did not want, we wanted credibility with this project. And I think ABC News provided that credibility because what those that don't know about the Delphi world is it's very, very divisive.

There's two distinct camps. There's the pro-richard Allen camp and the anti-richard Allen camp, those that think that he's guilty and those that don't. And both camps are super passionate. And then there's this middle lane, I think, where people, maybe they were in the Karen Reed, you know, watching that. And then now they're looking for something new to invest their time and energy in. And those are the people that I think would like the Hulu versus if we, if what we had done was go out. And I guess had a complete defense take on this, one-sided take, then that's not, that could take away from that middle lane of people that they could say, well, I don't know how much of this I can believe. So we wanted an even-handed approach, a journalistic approach on this first, you know, docu-series.

And that's why we agreed to participate. And I thought they did a pretty good job. There's a lot of stuff that's missing. they just didn't have the time for it. It's, I'm not, I don't know how that side of the business works. So we did way more interviews in terms of hours and hours of interviews and there was a lot of detail in. And it'd be hard to get that minutia out there because it is a very, this case is steeped in facts that, you know, one fact links to the other. And you have to know the first fact before you know the second fact.

And it's very complicated. So, but I'm very pleased. And I would encourage people to go watch it because they will, when you watch it, you can watch it, you you can kind of dip your toe in the waters of Delphi and start to understand by watching it, especially the second and third episodes, why there was an injustice here. At least that's our perspective from the defense. But you're talking about how divisive this case has been, and it's been incredibly divisive. To me, it's kind of insane how divisive it's been.

And that happens sometimes in these huge, huge cases, these cases that really, really seem to grip people. And it breaks people into these almost tribal camps where you've got one side saying, no, the guy did it and then the or the gal did it. And then, you know, the other side saying, no, this person is innocent or is being railroaded. In your experience, as a criminal defense attorney, I mean, why do you think this happens? I mean, you brought up the Karen Reed case. We saw it happen in that case. We saw it happen in the Delphi case. What's your thought on that? Yeah, it's a good question. I think it has a lot to do with social media. I've done this over 30 years. I've had some big cases and there were people that were, you know, in one camp or the other, but it never got to this level of heightened scrutiny. I mean, we have people in this case that are watching it from Zimbabwe, Scotland, South Africa, Australia, all over the world. world. And they are invested in this case. And I think a lot of it, as it relates to Delphi, as it relates to the Delphi case, I think a lot of that comes from the air of mystery and secrecy that that was going on in this case for the first, whatever, seven, six, seven years before the Franks memo came out. And that's, for those that don't know, that was a 136 page memo that we put out, that

a lot of information that had never been revealed before. It was part of the filing that we needed to do. We're trying to suppress some evidence. And once that came out, then it really hit into high gear. I didn't know what I was getting into when we filed that thing in terms of how it would affect worldwide attention. I had no idea about that because we're just, we got our head down and we're just plugging away. And then the next thing you know, all this attention is out there. So as it relates to the Delphi case, I think the secrecy just created the lack of transparency. And that's been a real problem in this case over the entirety of the case is a lack of transparency. And it just breeds, you know, conspiracy theories and, and things that,

you know, people out there, they just, we are the people we want transparency. We deserve that. And we didn't get that in this case. And, you know, Karen Reid is a great example. I didn't really have time to follow that case. But the more and more I hear about it, the more and more I think, wow, this case, Adelphi is very, very similar to the Karen Reed case in so many different ways. Yeah, I mean, I think there are similarities. But Karen Reed, I mean, that was like next level for many reasons, but we won't go into that right now. Maybe you and I can talk about that off camera. But I want to let's, but I, you know, that was kind of like on steroids, the Karen Reed case. But let's go back to your Franks memo.

For our viewers who may not be familiar with what that means, you know, a Franks motion is basically when you say, hey, we want this evidence thrown out because we think the cops lied. And that's where you kind of came out and you talked about the odinist theory where there may have been some like ritualistic stuff going on with these murders, that's some odeness.

may have murdered Abby and Libby. So that's where, you know, that really caught fire. And I think on social media in particular, anytime you bring up something like that with like a conspiracy theory, a potential conspiracy theory attached to it, it just goes off like wildfire. Yeah, it does.

I would encourage anybody that's super interested in this case or even moderately interested to go online. I think you can file the, find the Franks memo by just Googling Frank's memo, Delphi or something. And it's 136 pages. And it's not, it doesn't read like a legal document. It really, and it lays out all the reasons why we, we feel that the police were deceptive when they sought a search warrant for Richard Allen's house. Just as an example, just as a brief example, the one of the people that they use in the, in the context of their probable cause affidavit to get into a citizen's house. I mean, let's talk about what that is.

They, the police filed a document, swore under oath that it was true and it was accurate. And the prosecutor, Nick McLeeland, he signed off on it as approving it. They sent this to a judge and then the judge read it and said, okay, there's enough probable cause here for us to get into a citizen's house. That's the government getting into somebody's house. That's a high bar. It should be a high bar. And that document needs to be very, very honest. It needs to be. to be very, you know, show the truth. And what we, uh, what we showed and demonstrated, uh, as it relates to Odenism is there was a whole other, uh, uh, investigation going on of very, very viable subjects. And we that should have been included. Hey, judge, here's why we want to get

into his house. But to be fair, we ought to let you know that there's all these other people that are out there. There's some debate on that from lawyers about whether that should be included. But that wasn't all. I mean, what really bothered me was one of the witnesses, her name's Betsy Blair, and Betsy saw a guy on the trail or on the bridge that they're claiming she saw Richard Allen before he followed the girls and abducted them. What they didn't tell the judge, or Tony Liggett was the sheriff at the time, what Tony Liggett did not write in the probable cause affidavit and what Nick McLean, the prosecutor, approved of in the probable cause affidavit, was leaving out this very big detail. What the person that saw Richard Allen described was a 20-year-old

boy, basically, with brown poofy hair. And that does not describe Richard Allen at all. Other things that were talked about that were contained in that document that just weren't true were three girls or four girls on the trail that said that the police say, and the probable cause affidavit says is that they saw Richard Allen. And what the probable cause affidavit doesn't say is Richard Allen is five foot five. And these girls were describing somebody that was five foot 11, wasn't short by any stretch. He's the type of short that when you see a guy like him, you're like, wow, look at that short guy. Okay.

And not one person, not one person that isn't containing that probable cause affidavit said the guy was short. And Betsy Blair also saw if Richard Allen's, the police. say that Richard Allen's vehicle was parked at this certain lot in that after he killed the girls he got on the this is their theory it's ridiculous but they that he got walked up the hill walked down a 300 north which is a pretty heavily traveled road I mean and uh after he killed these girls you know it just and he walked to his car so he the car was at the parking lot uh from one according to the police from like 1 30 until 4 p.m well betsy blair passed that parking lot when that car, when a car was there.

And the car that she described was a 1965 Mercury Comet, an old school, you know, angular car. And Richard Allen doesn't drive that. And that was not put into the probable cause affidavit. So there was just all kinds of, of dishonest things that were left out, that if you were a judge, if you were being honest, you'd say, Now, to be fair, Judge, she, the person that we're saying described Richard Allen. She didn't really describe him.

She described a 20-year-old guy with a brown poofy hair. And the car that she saw was a, was an old comet. And so that doesn't really fit Richard Allen's car. And then the judge would be like, what a good judge would be, at least would do it. Well, gosh, I'm not going to sign off on a probable cause affidavit knowing this information. So that's the purpose behind the Franks memo. And it just so happened that the Odin stuff was, you know, we were, we then, realized that, wow, there's all this strong evidence that Odinism was, that this was a ritualistic

crime scene. And we had an expert that she basically works for the federal government teaching the FBI and other state and local and federal law enforcement agencies. What does this ritualistic crime scene look like? And she testified under oath that, and she normally testifies for the police, okay, for law enforcement. She said, this is a textbook ritualistic crime scene. And nobody debated that. I mean, the state of Indiana did not put on one witness to say, this does not look like a ritualistic crime scene. They don't know. That's not, you know, these are small town police and state police that never would have encountered this bizarre crime scene where the girls were found.

You know, one thing I do have to kind of push back on a little bit, though, is the fact that, yes, they had this invest. They were looking into this odness thing or there was this investigation. going into odinism but I mean when you're you're preparing probable cause for a search warrant though I mean you're looking for probable cause for a search warrant so I mean they don't have to throw you know probable cause you know that's a that's a lower standard so like things that you're bringing up though don't seem like they should go into a search warrant for a probable cause for a search warrant that seems like almost like you know that's like defense stuff for trial I don't disagree necessarily about the Odin stuff.

I, you know, I try to be a fair guy. I think that, that stuff is, is debatable and perhaps, perhaps I could even agree with you on that. But what about that other, leaving out that the person that Betsy Blair described, she's in the probable cause affidavit, and they're using her as, you know, a tent pole of, this is, this is a lady that saw Richard Allen. and he she described somebody that did not look anything like richard allen and the car that she described did not look anything like richard allen's car that that that that i will push back with you on and i would you know i i presume that you're going to agree with me that i should have

included that yeah it's a fair point it's a fair point um fair point um thank you for pushing back by the way i love media it pushes back let's be fair i mean i just think that odinism stuff doesn't belong in in there um you know but anyway Anyway, we can move on from that. Let's go back to, I want to talk to you about Kathy Allen, kind of breaking her silence in this docu series, because I found her at the end of episode one to be really compelling. We've not heard from her except in these jail calls.

And, you know, she's talking about this man that she has loved and known for decades. She has spent her life with him. and what she is describing is not some guy that goes out on a trail and with a box cutter and corners two girls and takes them down a hill and slashes their throats. However, we have him on jail calls more than one jail call saying, babe, I did it. And so it's just really hard to reconcile. I understand, you know, your argument that he was being kept in horrific conditions, you know, the state would say, well, he was, it was for his own protection, things of that nature, you know, he was being treated with medications. And, you know, even, I think his mom was saying, they're doing something to your food, they're doing something to your meds, you know, we've got all these jail calls.

He didn't just say it once. He said it many times. So how do you square that? Well, one one simple way that the jury should have been able to hear was, and is, and this was not part of the documentary, is he was being guarded by Odenists. How about that? I mean, in the world of criminal defense, when you're able to go in front of a jury and say, how does a guy confess to something that he's not guilty of? Let's leave out the fact that he should never have been in a prison. That's totally crazy and bizarre. Let's leave out the fact that he was in solitary. I agree with you on that. I think that's not. All of that. let's leave all of that out and let's just say like from a pure criminal defense strategy perspective uh and maybe from a reality perspective as well he's being guarded by odinist and people might listen to this uh broadcast and say that defense lawyer is crazy but um we have

photos they admitted that he's being paraded around and they're these guards wearing odin patches on their uniform in odin we trust that's what it said okay two of them both wearing in odin we patches and having the symbol of Odinism on their uniform. And that is not a small thing. And I don't know if these guys had anything to do with it, but you know, you could see a scenario where we don't know what's going on inside of that prison and we don't know what's going on side of these guards. And let me tell you something that happened in this case that you may or may not know about. While Richard Allen was never videotaped ever for the first four or five months, when these guards would come and bring him Richard to us to

talk and to have private conversations, we would go into a room privately and talk and nobody was watching or anything. We went into the captain, I think it was the captain's, a conference room or something and everything was great. But then when Richard broke down, all of a sudden, the very day that he breaks down, April the 3rd, 2023, these guards walked down the hallway with Richard and he's all shackled up and looking terrible. And they have a old school camcorder on top of their shoulder and they're videotaping everything. And as they approach, I look on. on their uniforms and it says in Odin we trust and nobody's explained how that's improper or improper or anything nobody from the indiana department of corrections well then to make it even

worse i asked to go see his his where he's living his living arrangements because something was very wrong with him they would not agree to that then to make it even more worse the next time we came to see richard and the next few times i think we saw richard they put him in a room with a glass wall and they recorded with their camcorder, these guards that were wearing the Odin patches, they required us to seat Richard Allen facing them. Okay. And the way I interpret it, and so there's nothing we can do about it. There's nothing.

You know, we're trying to have a private conversation with our client, and they're facing, the camera is facing Richard Allen's lips. So they can see what he's saying. And to me, it came off as, buddy, we're watching you. We're watching you. you better you better keep you better keep on the party line there now people can say i'm crazy and that's fine but everything i'm telling you is true and when you read the franks memo everything is is is footnoted everything has got there's so many exhibits in there that support everything that

i say so before you just kind of poo poo it read it look at it and if you disagree with it that's fine i get that but that would be one example another one by the way of why you should not trust these confessions is he also confessed to shooting the girls in the back he also confessed to killing his grandchildren he doesn't even have grandchildren by the way he confessed to a lot of things it simply weren't true this uh should put some pause into anybody who's thinking that yeah we believe these uh these uh these uh so-called confessions beyond a reasonable doubt the guy on the snapchat video bridge guy i mean can you admit that it does sound like richard allen I think it sounds like Brad Holder.

I think it sounds like Richard Allen. I think it sounds like my brother Danny. I think it sounds like the guy that my neighbor across the street. I mean, to say, if that's what a jury is going to hang its hat on, then shame on them. I hope that's not what they hung their hat on. How's Kathy Allen doing? I mean, as I mentioned earlier, she's compelling in this series. I mean, she really believes in her husband.

she Kathy is as strong a woman as I've ever known and we have a lot of regrets from the trial one of my regrets is not putting her on the stand yeah I was going to ask you why didn't you call her because she told him to go to the cops she said you were on the bridge that day go to the cops yeah and and she would have been great on the stand now I think those are game time decisions we saw how the prosecution treated the daughter Brittany Rick's daughter when she was on the stand. And I think Rick, part of that analysis is, I don't think Rick was looking forward to seeing his wife up there going under cross-exam. He loves his wife so much. And, you know, part of the reason I think that there were, early on, the judge would not let in a lot of evidence. Obviously, I think people that know the case would would know that. One of the things that happened on early, very early on when he was in there is he made a phone call. I think it was to his father, or stepfather and he said, I might as well just plead guilty, like to alleviate Kathy of the trauma that she's going to go through right now because he understood that her husband was being

accused of this horrific crime and he loves her so much. He wanted her to just move on. And he privately would tell us that all the time too. So there's that going on. But Kathy's great. I mean, she's a fighter and she stands by him 1,000 percent. She knows that he didn't do this. And she's a very she's a strong Christian woman and she's she she prays a lot like I do every morning. I pray that the killers or those who know who did the killing and have information about that will come forward to a credible law enforcement officer and to end this nightmare. And we're still prayerful about that and hopeful for that outside of the legal realm. Do you think that Richard Allen gets a new trial?

You know, we trial lawyers, as I said in the documentary, are superstitious. And for me, it, you know, it, I know that we should. I know that we should. And we have a great court of appeals, 15 court of appeal of appeal judges in Indiana. It's a group of three that will ultimately make the decision. And those three people will have to be persuaded by briefing and powerful writing. We have great appellate, lawyers on this case. Mark Lehman and Stacey Ulliana, they're very skilled, very brilliant lawyers, and they've got a lot. The problem is they've got so much appellate issues to deal with that it's going to take them a while. My guess is it's going to take, if they have their briefing done by the end of the year, I think it would be pretty extraordinary. That means that they really put in the extra time because there is so much issue here, so many different appellate issues that yes, I do, I hate saying it because I'm, I'm superstitious trial lawyer, but I do feel strongly that this is going to be overturned. We will wait and see. You know, it's just a crying

shame that cameras were not allowed in that courtroom, especially since Judge Gall was part of that pilot program in Indiana where cameras were allowed. I mean, I was very hopeful when we found out about that. And I'm obviously a huge advocate of cameras in the courtroom. You know, I think that would have been a good thing. So I think that was really sad that that didn't happen. But Andy Baldwin, we will keep an eye on it. Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.

And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.