Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - How Bryan Kohberger Was Really Caught Just Revealed

Episode Date: September 9, 2025

Stacy Chapin, the mother of Ethan Chapin, shared her story and new partnership with the DNA lab that helped solve her son's murder over the weekend at CrimeCon. Othram Labs conducted the investigative genetic genealogy on the DNA left on the knife sheath found at the home on King Rd. on November 13, 2022. Kristen Mittelman, chief development officer at Othram, spoke with Chapin at CrimeCon about how they first met in 2023 but couldn't discuss the case until now. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy sits down with Chapin and Mittelman in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can submit a claim in 8 clicks or less without having to leave your couch. To start your claim, visit: https://www.forthepeople.com/CrimeFixHost:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guests: Stacy Chapin https://www.instagram.com/ethanssmilefoundation/Kristen Mittelman https://x.com/OthramTechProducer:Jordan ChaconCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this Law and Crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. He's such a good kid. It's hard, you know, it's hard because you, you know, it's hard to know. It was just an amazing human. He loved everybody. Loved. He just, he had touched so many lives.

Ethan Chapin's mother, Stacey, is remembering her oldest triplet nearly three years after his senseless murder as she joins a woman who helped solve his case on stage to talk about their new bond. I could not hug her. And I do think that our paths were meant to intersect. Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. The story that I'm going to share with you is really, really special, although it's rooted in incredible loss and sadness. It's part of something that happened in solving the mystery of who was behind the horror on King Road that Sunday morning on November 13, 2022. That morning, as we have discussed so many times before, Evil walked into that college rental home in Moscow, Idaho, and stole the lives of four beautiful college students,

Maddie Mogan, Kili Gonzalez, Zana Kornodle, and Ethan Chapin. Even today, nearly three years later, it's still hard to believe that that photo of the four of them was taken and 12 hours or so later, they were gone. Moscow police knew they had a bona fide who done it on their hands and that they were in over their heads. So they called in Idaho State Police and the FBI to assist in what would become a massive criminal investigation watched by people around the world. There was one piece of evidence that would lead Moscow police to identify a suspect that could aid in their investigation. It was the person whose DNA was left on a K-bar knife sheath left next to the body of Maddie Mogan on her bed. Idaho State Police tested the DNA, and it didn't come back to anyone in CODIS. That's the FBI database of known felony offenders.

ISP had a contract with Offram Labs, which does investigative genetic genealogy testing, and has helped solve cold cases. But this was different. This was an active hot case. And a suspect who had murdered four college students was on the loose. Would he strike again soon? Time was absolutely of the essence. David and Kristen Middleman, they run Authrum Labs in Texas.

It was Thanksgiving, 2022, and they were taking family photos with their children when they received an urgent call. There was a case out of Idaho, and their help was needed. Kristen didn't even change into her usual suit. She and David went straight to the office. Kristen, David, and their team got to work. They accepted the DNA from the police who showed up, and they started the work of building family trees to determine whose DNA was on the snap of the nice sheath. Kristen said they built out the family trees and determined the source of the DNA likely came from a family in Pennsylvania with some Italian heritage.

That's significant because it would later be determined that Brian Co. Koeberger was the source of the DNA on the snap of that night's sheath. On December 10th, the FBI stepped in and took over the family tree search. Nine days later, the feds gave the name Brian Koberger to Moscow police and all of the pieces started to come together. Koberger drove a white Hyundai Alantra. He fit the description given by one of the surviving roommates of the man in all black with bushy eyebrows and lived nearby in Pullman, Washington.

And then there was the cell phone data showing that he'd been in Moscow late at night on many occasions leading up to the night of the murders. Koberger was arrested at his parents' home in Pennsylvania on December 30th, 2022. He pleaded guilty weeks before jury selection was set to begin just this past summer and is serving four consecutive life sentences. There's a reason crime fix is one of the top-ranked shows on YouTube right now, just like there's a reason why Morgan and Morgan is America's largest injury law firm. They're a firm with more than a thousand attorneys, and that's because they will.

a lot. Morgan and Morgan has recovered more than $25 billion for more than 500,000 clients. In the last few months, a client in Florida received $12 million after the insurance company offered just $350,000. In Pennsylvania, a client was awarded $26 million. That was 40 times the insurer's $650,000 offer. Another client in Pennsylvania received $29 million after being offered only $500,000. even if you think your case is not worth millions, why not start a claim and fight for what you deserve? Morgan and Morgan makes it truly so easy. You can start a claim from your phone and just eight clicks. So if you're ever hurt, you can easily start a claim at for the people.com slash crime fix by clicking the link below or scanning that QR code that you see on your screen.

Kristen and David Middleman. They were under a gag order just like everyone else involved in the case until mid-July, so they haven't been able to talk about this case until recently. They were at CrimeCon in Denver this past weekend, and Kristen joined Stacey Chapin, Ethan Chapin's mother on stage to talk about the technology that helped catch the person who killed her beautiful boy. Stacey and Kristen actually met just briefly at CrimeCon in 2003 a chance encounter where Stacy said she was sharing her story with other parents of murder victims when a woman who she learned was Kristen came up to her and hugged her and said, you don't have to worry and walked away. It wasn't until the gag order was lifted in mid-July

that Kristen and Stacey met. Jim and Stacey Chapin flew to Texas right after the gag order was lifted and met with David and Kristen at Othrum. I sat down with Kristen and Stacy at crime con over the weekend. So let's get back to that hug in 2023. Can you tell me about that? That's literally all the way. But even at the time, I don't think I realized what it meant. I didn't know who she was. I mean, I literally Googled her name afterwards. But the hug went on to me mean literally everything.

I didn't tell a soul. I couldn't. I didn't know if I could. I didn't even tell my kids. I told my husband and that was it. But there were a couple of our darkest days where we literally, and Kristen loved that part of the story. That was like, we relied on that hug, that we were going to get through this thing.

It meant there was something out there that we was beyond anything that we could potentially, you know, that we knew about, really. And I couldn't say more, right? I couldn't say anything. Right. But I knew I had to say something. Right. Because why do this? Why, I mean, my entire role at offer them is to advocacy for victims and to see that right next to me.

to know that I can say something to help her and to not be able to do it. I just remember that moment. And I remember walking down and telling David, you can fire me if you need to. I hugged her. I just talked to. And I said it's going to be okay because I didn't,

I could not hug her. And I do think that our paths were meant to intersect. There's a lot of commonalities that I didn't know anything about any of the families at the time outside of what had happened, right? And so we focus on the actual case. And so I didn't know your personality, your relationship with Jim, the fact that you had triplets that were two boys and a girl. There are so many commonalities in the sense that we have two boys and a girl. And we have the two older kids, our oldest was the exact same age. And so I, and I do think.

that once I got to know, Stacey and Jim, there's some weird parallels in our, in a way, we process things. Our love for our husbands. And our love for our husbands and our love for our families. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And just we're both, we're both the strong ones, I think. We're both the anchor. The anchor in a lot of ways. And so there was a lot more to relate on that I had no idea about in that room. Yeah. But I knew I had to say something to her. And the fact that it mattered, because it could have seemed so insignificant to her.

Like she said, how many people at CrimeCon are hugging her? A million people are hugging her and saying something. And so who is this one person that walks up to me and says, you know, a few words, right? Yeah. It could have meant nothing. And she could have just, when I called after the gag order, she could have said, I don't remember Kristen Middleman, right? And that could have been very much an offer. And I over the course of the years, I would Google author, right?

Like, you know, I'm like, do I reach out? Do I not? And we just couldn't. I mean, I didn't know anything I wasn't supposed to know, but I, the hug, there was something about it. And so we joke about how do we get that hug to everybody, right? Which is, I'm not hugging everybody. No, I know that.

But the idea of it. You're a scientist. When you realized what, like, what you were working on, does that change the case or do you just stick to the science? Of course, it changes the case. I knew that these were kids that were my daughter's age. I knew that there were people afraid to come back to school. My daughter was afraid to go back to school.

She was in a completely different state. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you that that doesn't affect me. Of course it affects me. What we do is the same for every case. We tested the feasibility of this case just as we would any other case. And if it wasn't feasible for the technology, we wouldn't have done it. but it was and there was so much DNA in comparison to some of these cold cases we work and that was not what was represented in the in the media now one thing that was frustrating for the middleman's

was the amount of information floating around social media about the case including the DNA on the sheath specifically the quantity the amount of DNA left on the snap of the sheath was actually a large quantity you might not be able to see it but it was a lot and we've talked about that with a DNA expert here on crime fix before. It was repeatedly described as trace DNA, and that simply wasn't true. We could have done a six times, seven times if you had

to, right? This wasn't one of those cases where you're looking at seven cells like we have in the past. And I don't, I just that is a whole piece of why it's important for potentially everybody. Because the lack of that

information caused social media to make their own interpretations of what they thought it was and it hurt it hurt a lot of people it hurts the kids involved it hurts the families involved that's what hurt it hurt you can't you know we could do all we can do is read it you can't respond you can't there's nothing you and I knew that it was fine I knew what certainty what we had done and no one else did you brought up the DNA the FBI coming into this case and this number 10 yes we work with the FBI in hundreds and hundreds of

cases. We were the only profile built. People went down this line of the FBI built a different profile. They didn't act. There's no such other profile. We were the only advanced DNA lab to test this case. And it was certain to us from the very beginning and to the FBI and to the law enforcement working in the case what the answer was, right? But I couldn't tell people that really needed to know that like Stacy. And then there was all the stuff going on in the media that we couldn't correct because the people actually working on the case were gagged. And I feel like that hurt the families the most and maybe the survivors. But it's a devastating scenario where it shouldn't be that case. As I mentioned, the FBI took over what Authrum had started on December 10th of

2022, but the middleman's had determined the suspect was in Pennsylvania. Kristen, tell me how far you took this with the genealogy work. We were able to complete the genealogy, bringing in the ancestry and all the matches that were there. And the tree that we turned over to law enforcement with our SNIP profile to start the target testing is a tree that Culberg would be found on. And it was his family. You said you found somebody that was like an Italian, had some Italian heritage in Pennsylvania.

So how this, yes, and how this technology works is you give law enforcement that at this generation and this family, these could be the people that could be possible batches to this. And then they figure out, did any one of those have the type of weapon that was used in the crime scene registered? Did they own the type of car that was seen at the crime scene? Were they in Idaho at the time of the murder or wherever the murder might have happened? And then they contextualize that and decide who is the most likely suspect. and they go about target testing for that. The technology that Authrum uses is typically used in cold cases, but the Chapins would like to make the technology more accessible to other families in their position.

They also believe it would have been helpful had the use of the technology in the case been more widely publicized in the very beginning. And I don't know. I think you have to be careful about that because I still respect the gag order and the reason why there wasn't information going out. But at the same time, like, for example, the affidavit that was released, right, if the one point on the DNA would have said in a sentence, you know, Arthurum tested and identified the perpetrator, or it's the perpetrator's DNA on the knife sheet. That doesn't solve the crime. We still need all of law enforcement to do that. But I think it would have really, you know, it would have eased a lot of. people's not only families of minds, kids' minds, it would have also quieted some social media spirals that went kind of crazy. Do you think looking back, maybe the gag order wasn't the right move? No. Because the defense wanted it. I didn't have any problem with the

guy owner. Yeah. But you would like this technology available to people, other families in your position. Anybody. It's not everybody. Everybody should. have access to this how do you want that message to get out like how how would you like how are you going to work with Kristen to maybe we're trying to define that right now right but again like in our case using it as an example if the affidavit you know or just the families will just knew that you know there there has been a hundred percent you know that um the you know the DNA has been the perpetrator has been identified by DNA on the case with athrum and that's all you you know, that's a pretty good piece of information to go forward with.

That information was not put in the probable cause affidavit because law enforcement treats it as a tip. But the gag order prevented anyone from talking about it publicly. Authrum's work only became known publicly through court documents much later on in the case. I'm not criticizing anybody. There is no criticism. There has been, but not from our family. You know, we have always supported everybody that was working on our case. But even just that tidbit of information, you know, you'd go through the next two years just a little bit easier, knowing that that's pretty solid evidence in the case. Still takes everybody else.

But that little piece of knowledge is comforting, I guess, for lack of a better word. No, it's true. And to me, this technology obviously works. We're sitting underneath a, you know, entire column of victims that have gotten answers, perpetrators that have been caught, right? And it works in cold cases, but it works even easier in real-time cases because the DNA is fresh. You're not looking a DNA that was in an ocean for 100 years or burnt or left in a sewage tank. You're looking at something that came from a yesterday's crime scene.

That's incredible. And the fact that it worked in this case and we were able to give Stacey's family and the other family the answers that they needed, get him off the street before he committed that next crime is great, but it could work for every case real time. And there really shouldn't be an excuse for not using it. Law enforcement uses any camera that might be anywhere near a crime scene to see what might have happened at the crime scene. They use any eyewitness that was at a crime scene to ask them what they saw so they could piece pieces together. Why don't they use all the information they can get from a DNA at the crime scene the same way.

We're not giving you the answer. We're giving you that investigative information about who left DNA at the crime scene. And then law enforcement comes in and they contextualize that within their investigation. And so why are we omitting a very important part of the information up front? Because there's no funding, there's no precedent,

there's no method, or we're creating all of that. And so I think Stacey and I will go create that, Yes, with Ethan at the forefront of that movement, because in his honor, I hope that there is no case that sits at a dead end in a contemporary investigation, because that's when it's most critical to catch that person real time, because they're going to commit that crime again. They're not going to stop. Most crime is serial. We all know that. Stacey said throughout the case, they really only had the information that the public had, but she said prosecutors and police always answered their questions. I thought the prosecutors were great in telling us what they could tell us.

I never questioned the fact that they couldn't, you know. We had to let, we've said it, we had to let the prosecutors do their job and our job was parents. You guys do, and we were told from the very beginning, it's going to take a long time. You have to, you're kind of at the hands of the defense to make sure that it goes through all of the stages that it has to go through. has to go through. And so we decided, okay, we're not going to let that piece of something that we cannot control impact how we feel about moving forward. Coburger was arrested in the early morning hours of December 30th, 47 days after the murders. I asked Stacey Chapin, what it was like to get that call. It was around 11 p.m. Pacific time and how she felt about sending Ethan's siblings

Mazie and Hunter back to the University of Idaho. Honestly, for us, It's probably different because we have the only kids that were headed back to university. I mean, you have to understand, you know, we'd had, well, by the time we put the kids back in school, we had 60 days. So the call, we'd told, you know, we'd made a decision that kids were going back. But Maisie was starting to be like, I don't know if it's right to go back if we do not know who this person is. And, you know, behind the scenes, Jim and I were like, that's a valid concern, right? I mean and so for us it was a relief it was a relief we just there was there it was a step in the process that moved us forward it was a just a huge relief that they

have a suspect yeah I mean absolutely and the kids was there ever obviously was there any hesitation once they had a suspect in sending Mazie and Hunter back because they had support with their friends it was just what what else were what You know, it's two 20-year-olds, right? And we'd had 60 days together because the university released them from school, gave them the grades that they had on that day. And, you know, you're still sitting around,

what are we accomplishing, you know? So we had to go back and finish what we started. We spent a lot of time as a family discussing what that looked like. But that was really the only answer. You're going to, you know, go back. finished what you started. Ethan would have only wanted that, and they graduated in May. And the greatest for me as a mom, part of the story is,

is that from that, what I consider the lowest part of our life, our kids win it on and graduated with honors, which speaks to their, you know, their resilience, you know, to the end of it. So they're amazing kids. The Chapins have worked to make some good come out of Ethan's murder. They founded the Ethan Smiles Foundation in his memory and raised money to award scholarships to other kids. Is there anything you like to say about that and about Ethan?

What do you want people to know about Ethan? Such a good kid. It's hard, you know, it's hard because you, you know, it's hard to know how he was a, it was just an amazing human. He loved everybody. Loved. He just, he had touched so many lives. We used to say, if we could touch us, I would. would help to touch as many lives in my lifetime that Ethan touched in 20 years.

He just was that kid. He was amazing. So we created a foundation to help other kids. And it's been amazing. I mean, it's really something to be able to scholarship kids in Ethan's name. How many kids have you awarded scholarships? It's 83 right now. And it's $105,000.

Yeah. I mean, that's amazing. That is amazing. Yeah. And, I mean, I assume through the tulips and donations, and I saw you were selling. Glassy babies, yes. That's a very Pacific Northwest thing. And each one is a hand-blown piece of glass.

That's a huge fundraiser for us. We do a huge auction in November. And then we just have, there's some foundations out there that have watched us, you know, I guess, in various different places that have made some very job. generous donations. So it's it's amazing. I do ever feel like he's with you and kind of he's always with us. Yeah, he'll always be with me. Yep. Yeah. I attended the session presented by Kristen and Stacey at CrimeCon and there wasn't an empty seat there. People were sitting on the floor to listen to them. It was powerful to listen to them share their story together. Well, being on stage with Kristen is

easy. I mean, that's, it feels like a natural, the next natural step in our scenario, I guess, or our journey. Good work. Yes. It's tough. I mean, I don't, you know, I feel like on most days I go through life feeling, you know, comfortable in our new normal, but like even today before we gave the speech, we were in the back kind of going over how we were going to, in the back of the stage and I started to cry and I'm like oh oh you know you just every once in while you just have to take a moment to really gather your self back together but I'm I'm honored to work with them and I mean I don't know that we realized it until we rolled into Houston and there became a I could feel it in their people that they it was good for them to have a face

associated to what they do and it was good for us because, I mean, you know, for obvious reasons, right? Like they were the science behind, you know, the DNA. You can learn more about the Ethan Smile Foundation at Ethan Smile.org and Authrum site isothrum.com. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Ann Janette Levy. Thank you so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time. Thank you.