Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - How Cops Zeroed In On Bryan Kohberger in Idaho Murders Investigation

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

Bryan Kohberger's lead attorney, Anne Taylor, claims she still doesn't know how law enforcement identified her client as their main suspect in the murders of four University of Idaho students. Prosecutors fired back this week, stating Kohberger's team has the answer — in a letter written by the FBI on November 28, 2022. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy discusses the letter and other key dates in the investigation with retired FBI agent Bobby Chacon in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show that delves into the biggest stories in crime.If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. You can start your claim in just a click without having to leave your couch. To start your claim visit  https://ForThePeople.com/CrimeFixHost: Angenette Levy  - https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest: Bobby Chacon, Retired FBI Agent  https://twitter.com/BobbyChaconFBICRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoAudio Editing - Brad MaybeGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@LawandCrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. We're not sure how the state decides on Brian Koberger. Brian Koberger's defense team claims they're not entirely clear how law enforcement identified him as their suspect in the Idaho four murders. But prosecutors say the defense has the answer in their hands. So what is it? I'm Anjanette Levy. It's Wednesday and this is Crime Fix. Brian Koberger was arrested and charged with the murders of those four University of Idaho students nearly seven weeks after they were found stabbed to death in their house near campus. We know Koberger drove a white Hyundai Elantra that police said was seen at the house

on King Road. And the lead detective said Koberger's DNA was found on the snap of the K-Bar knife sheath left next to Maddie Mogan's body. But how did police get to him? This is what Brian Koberger's lawyer, Ann Taylor, said last month during a hearing. And the clear picture that I'm concerned about is the state's pathway of how Brian Koberger comes to their attention and is identified. I've read that PC affidavit over and over and over again, and I'm not sure. Now, in a filing this week, prosecutors essentially said the defense should already know the answer to that question. They wrote, this information can be obtained from

the TUI letter from the FBI to the state dated November 28th, 2023. So what's this TUI letter, and what does it say? Bobby Chacon is a retired FBI agent and also a lawyer. Bobby, what is a TUI letter? I think the best way people can think about a TUI letter, it's kind of like a subpoena. It is a request for documents or witnesses, usually a witness of a government agency in cases where that agency isn't a party to the proceeding. So if they're a party, then you go through the subpoena round. But it's very similar to a subpoena. It's a request for documents and or a witness to be provided in the case. So the FBI, according to the prosecution, sends this TUI letter, which should answer this

question about how Brian Koberger became the suspect in this murder case on November 28th. That's 15 days after the homicide. So I know I'm asking you to speculate a little bit, but what on earth could that letter have said and why is the FBI sending it to the prosecution? I think what's what's actually and I read the filing. I think there's a little bit of a mistake on the prosecution that they say the the FBI to a filing, I think there's a little bit of a mistake on the prosecution. They say the FBI TUI letter, I think what they mean is the response, the FBI's response to the TUI letter. I believe what happened is here, the prosecution probably sent a TUI letter to the FBI and the FBI responded to that. The FBI would not send out a TUI letter.

That's not the purpose of it. You wouldn't do that. But they responded to a TUI letter that was probably sent to them by the prosecution because the prosecution was probably trying to line up all of its information that it may need later down the case. Again, it's speculation, like you said, but they wanted to know how Brian Kohlberger was initially identified, initially put on their radar. And the FBI had something to do with that. We know through genealogy and things like that, we know the DNA. And so they probably were trying to gather in the early stages of the investigation

all the information that they felt they might need later on. And part of that was how the FBI assisted Idaho in identifying this individual. So that was going to be my next question, because we know they found Brian Koberger's DNA, a single source male DNA profile on the snap of that K-bar knife sheath that was found next to and kind of underneath Maddie Mogan's body horrifically. And, you know, it wasn't in CODIS. It wasn't in the FBI database of known felons so then they had to do some work so the FBI goes to work with Othram and they start building the trees and do they do what they do and that's how in my mind they would have figured out who the suspect was so was it possibly about the genetic genealogy information in this TUI letter, obviously

asking you to speculate again? Yeah, I think you're right. I think in my opinion, that's what it was about. It was about not only specifically to this case, but in general, how this system works, how you did what you did. I think that's what they were trying to gather. So they have those answers down the road as it moved forward. But I think you're right. And again, I think it's important in the timeline of things to not say, you know, they

found Brian Koberger's DNA on that night sheet. What they found was DNA on the night sheet. And then they did that whole thing that you just explained, that whole process, because it is a process and it is and you have to go back. And what let's remember what genealogy does. It doesn't give us a suspect. It gives us a grouping of suspects. Right. And then we have to go back. And what let's remember what genealogy does. It doesn't give us a suspect. It gives us a grouping of suspects. Right. And then we have to go out and do further investigation on the individuals that are in that pool of suspects. So it narrows it down. And then we look at each individual and then you go and try to get that individual's DNA surreptitiously, as they did here, and then match it directly. So there's there's a couple of steps in the process. So probably on November 28th, 15 days after the homicides, they know they've got this unknown male DNA profile. The feds are involved in this. The FBI is involved

because the thing is just a monster of a case happening in this little town in Idaho with the Idaho State Police involved. They know they've got some work to do. They're maybe getting a pool of suspects from the genetic genealogy work that's done. And then the next big date in this case is November 29th, because they also know that a white Hyundai Elantra, according to the police, was also seen at the crime scene. And the FBI was involved in identifying that vehicle. And then, you know, they had asked, unbeknownst to all of us at the time, they had asked law enforcement to be on the lookout for this white Hyundai Elantra. We have two Washington State University police officers putting a query in on November 29th, the day after this letter,

and they see, oh, this Brian Koberger, this student drives a white Hyundai Elantra. I kind of gathered from reading all the documents that that kind of information might have gotten passed along, but put into a pile of other information for a time. So, you know, then there are a number of days that pass on december 7th like eight days later that is when the cops release the the images of the hyundai elantra and they're like we need information about this so to me bobby correct me if i'm wrong i don't think that they made the connection with coberger and the elantra back then on November 29th, if they're asking for information from the public about it on December 7th? Well, I think you're right. And I think that people have to understand that, you know, it's easy for us to look at an investigation after the fact and see it moving in a linear

direction. But oftentimes it's not, especially that early on in an investigation. So I think what was happening is several things were happening at once. They were doing a couple of different things. The pool over here with the DNA is starting to develop. The video is starting to be enhanced. And you have different teams within the investigation doing different things. And then ultimately it all gets married up together. But I think in those early days,

you had a couple of different things going on. I think the prosecution sent that to the FBI saying, you know, tell us exactly how you're doing this because we're the ones that are responsible for prosecuting this as a murder case in our state and we want to make sure that everything you're doing is going to marry up with what you know is proper in our our laws in the state and things like that so they wanted to get that information from the fbi what is your investigative genealogy process how does that work? Even if it's not specific to this case, how are you doing it? And the prosecutors want to be

comfortable with that. And at the same time, like you said, another team is working on that DNA off that knife sheath. Another team is working on the video of that Elantra and enhancing it. And so all of these things, and then down the road, it gets married up. But I think initially, I think what we're seeing now is several things happening at one time, but they're all put together later on. Yeah. And it's important to note, too, when they first asked for the information about the Hyundai, they were saying 2011 to 2013. Then later they look back and the FBI analyst says, well, it could have been 2011 to 2016. Koberger drove a 2015. So let's move on to our next significant date.

December 7th, as I said, they asked the public for help. Here is a white Hyundai Elantra. This is what it looks like. Please call us if you know of white Hyundai Elantras in the area, etc. And then like a week later or so, Brian Koberger and his dad are driving cross country. They get pulled over twice in Indiana within, you know, several minutes of each other. These two traffic stops. The FBI says, look, we were not monitoring him at that time. So he was not under surveillance. These were kind of interdiction drugs, traffic stops because he

was obviously a bad driver. the guy is always getting pulled over um so you know even then it seems like all those pieces had not yet quite come together um even on that date so would you agree with that yeah i agree exactly what we're seeing we're seeing in parts of the investigation put together and parts not yet. But ultimately, we see them put together, but we just don't know exactly when because sometimes that's not even documented. You're just talking about it within the case team itself and saying this and that, and then you go back and document. But yeah, I think what we're doing is we're seeing the evolution of the investigation. Again, I sometimes have, you know, I have differing thoughts on those stops on whether they were coordinated. I don't think

they were coordinated. I think, as the FBI said, I just think it's, you know, it's just really suspiciously coincidental that two were close together. I think one was probably orchestrated, possibly not by the FBI, but one probably, uh, but one probably wasn't the second one probably wasn't. Um, but, but yeah, I think that I think multiple things were happening. It's always easier to look back and to impugn the investigation with all the knowledge they had, you know, ultimately, or tying them together. Ultimately, even if they had them, they hadn't connected those dots yet. We'll get back to Crime Fix in just a sec. But first, I want to tell you about our sponsor, Morgan & Morgan.

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My reading of this, the next important date, according to the probable cause affidavit, December 23rd. OK, that is eight days after the Indiana traffic stops and seven days before Brian Koberger is arrested. Brett Payne, the lead detective on this case, requests and receives Brian Koberger's cell phone records. Bobby, wouldn't that kind of probably be the day or wouldn't you say like in the days before that or maybe the day before that they had narrowed down maybe that genetic genealogy information and they see oh my god this guy drives a white elantra they get his phone records and then surveillance begins because they don't start digging through his trash his dad's trash in the pocono's for several more days yeah i think i think absolutely and and and yeah you're right think that that's exactly what happened.

And I think that on your prior question, then they go back and they say, oh, this guy was stopped twice. And then they go back and see the video, and everything starts to come together. But I think, again, like we said, he might have been in a larger pool of suspects. And then with each little piece that you're talking about,

that pool gets smaller and smaller and smaller. So you might've even been looking at somebody else at the same time and then ruled them out for whatever reason, but that pool just gets smaller and smaller. We're always accused by the defense of focusing in on one person too quickly. It's always the accusation,

but it's not always the case because a lot of times you're looking at somebody else here or there and different people in that pool has a different probability. Maybe Koberger was higher, you know, maybe, you know, and then but there were probably some other people that were lower. And then they get dropped off the list because whatever reason, alibis or whatever. And I think that all of the steps you're outlining here in this timeline, all those steps that move brian coberger higher and higher and higher on that list yeah it just seems like to me like they had they had these little pieces kind of floating around in the investigation um but it doesn't all kind of congeal and come

together until around maybe december 23rd and that's when they start, you know, the surveillance starts in Pennsylvania and then they really move in and things really start to heat up. So that's kind of my reading of all of it. I'm kind of confused as to why the defense is so confused about how their guy was identified because this is my reading of it. But they also have 51 terabytes of information to go through.

That's a lot. So, Bobby Chacon, any final thoughts? Yeah, people should remember, too, that court is not going to entertain itself with how Brian Carpenter was brought before it. That could be an issue for another court. It could be an issue for a civil proceeding. But generally, a criminal court that is looking at criminal charges, its job and that judge is looking at it. Did this defendant do the crimes he's charged with? How he got in front of the court is generally something the court will not look at. Again, false arrest, false imprisonment, all of that stuff is civil proceedings or proceedings for another court. But this court will not probably entertain issues of how his own, the only issue is his guilt or innocence on the charges that he's facing,

not how he was brought before this particular court. I think the defense personally is looking for a way to possibly file a motion to suppress some evidence. They're looking for anything, a thread to pull on, perhaps. That's my view of it. What do you think? Sure. And that's their job, right? That's their job. Of course. It's totally their job. There's nothing wrong with that. I know people tend to hate on defense attorneys, but that's literally their job. They wouldn't be doing their job if they didn't be aggressive in their defense of their client. No matter how dastardly we think this guy is, they still have a job to do. They're going to do it. And I've always faced that

challenge willingly and gladly faced that challenge when I had cases with prosecutors going to trial. It's not something that you fear. It's something that's part of the system and should be applauded. Bobby Chacon, thank you so much as always for coming on. We appreciate it. And that's it for Crime Fix on this Wednesday, February 14th, 2024. I'm Anjanette Levy.

Thanks so much for being with us. We'll see you back here tomorrow. Until then, have a great night. You can download Crime Fix on Apple, Spotify, Google, and wherever else you get your favorite podcasts and new episodes post each weeknight at 6 Eastern time on Law and Crime's YouTube channel. Daniel Camacho does our video editing. Our head of social media is Bobby Zoki. Our senior director of social media is Vanessa Vine. Savannah Williamson is one of our producers.

Diane Kay and Alyssa Fisher book our guests. And Brad Mabey is our audio editor.