Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Johnny Depp’s Lawyer on Alec Baldwin’s Trial: ‘I Think He Has To Testify’

Episode Date: July 2, 2024

Alec Baldwin’s trial for the shooting of “Rust” cinematographer Halyna Hutchins begins next week. Baldwin faces an involuntary manslaughter charge in Hutchins’ death in October 2021. Baldwin is an A-list celebrity who’s no stranger to controversy and media attention. But how will his defense handle presenting him to a jury in the courtroom and will he testify? Law&Crime’s Angenette Levy discusses Baldwin’s upcoming trial with one of Johnny Depp’s lawyers, Ben Chew, in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW: Download the FREE Upside App at https://upside.app.link/crimefix to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas.Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest:Ben Chew https://x.com/BrownRudnickLLPCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@LawandCrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If that's a bullet that was pulled out of his shoulder, then someone loaded a live round into the gun I was holding. Alec Baldwin is preparing to go on trial to defend himself against a manslaughter charge in the death of cinematographer Helena Hutchins. So what does it take to represent an A-list celebrity at trial? Johnny Depp's lawyer is here with the scoop and his thoughts on what Alec Baldwin should be doing at trial. Should he testify? Thanks for joining me for Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. Alec Baldwin is one of Hollywood's elite. He's been in show business for

more than 40 years now. You've seen him in movies and you've seen him on TV in your living room. He can do comedy and drama. Some people love him and others not so much. That's pretty normal. He's had some encounters over the years with paparazzi and there were those terrible voicemails that became public that he left for his then 11 year old daughter, Ireland Baldwin years ago. I should note that Ireland Baldwin later roasted her dad about that on Comedy Central. So there were no hard feelings, but Alec Baldwin isn't on trial for any of those things. He faces an involuntary manslaughter charge for the shooting death of his cinematographer, Helena Hutchins, on the set of Rust back in October of 2021. It's an absolute tragedy.

Alec Baldwin will be a criminal defendant sitting in a courtroom listening to evidence being presented against him. Baldwin maintains he's not criminally responsible for Hutchins' death, even though he was holding the gun that fired and killed Hutchins. Baldwin maintains he didn't fire the gun. He talked to detectives with the Santa Fe County Sheriff's Office shortly after the shooting, and he described what happened, making several statements. Well, what's interesting, not to digress on some commentary here, that we we've done this for two weeks, and we did it the right way every day. Every day. You're on set, you rehearse, they bring you what's called a cold gun. The gun gives you the completely empty chambers, or there is a cosmetic piece.

So, for example, if you're the camera, and this is going to sound silly and specific, but if I'm pointing the gun close to the camera, you want to see into the cylinder that there's material in there, cosmetic material. So those rounds are cosmetic rounds. They put them in. Baldwin said everything had been fine all week long. He described the scene he was practicing. But this is all I know, and that is that I take the gun out in the rehearsal. He wanted very dramatic and very subtle kind of sneak up on them. I take the gun out and then as I take, as it clears, as the barrel clears, I turn and cock

the gun. I turn and cock the gun. The gun goes off. It's supposed to be a cold gun. Nothing. No flash charges, nothing. And Baldwin described the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, clearing the gun, ensuring that it was safe, and then what happened when the gun fired. Every time we've done this, I'm here to tell you, to testify that every time we've done this, she's done it right. She cleaned the barrel, they said nothing was lodged in there. We went hot when they were ready, always announced, going hot. Crew gets ready. And then all of a sudden, you're the camera, and I shoot away from you. I sit there like, bang'm like, bang, bang, bang.

And flashes are coming out. We shoot the rounds. She cleans the barrel every time, and she checks that the rounds are all cosmetic rounds or nothing in the chamber for the rehearsal. She hands me the gun. I'm assuming she's done it the right way. She's done it in the last two weeks.

I put it in the holster, and I pull it out slow for rehearsing. I don't film anything. I pull it out slow, turn, cock the pistol, bang, it goes off and she hits the ground. Baldwin made another statement describing the rehearsal and pulling the gun from the holster and cocking the gun. Hutchins and director Joel Souza were setting up the shot for the scene. There's nobody in my line. Nobody. shot for the scene. It was a very tight shot. Okay. The shot was here. Not of me. It's of me pulling the gun slowly until it turned cock. Okay.

And she's right there, vulnerable, in a position she wouldn't ordinarily be if we were shooting. And this thing, boom, she hits the ground. Now, this conversation with sheriff's detectives occurred after the shooting, as Director Joel Souza and Helena Hutchins were being treated at the hospital. And going through Baldwin's police interview, he made one statement that was particularly curious to me. That's a bullet. Yeah, so that's what comes out of. I think the question, I mean, I don't want to tell you your job, but I'm so sick about this, so sicked by this, that a bullet passed through this girl's body. She's in critical condition in a hospital right now. And I fired the gun.

And you don't think I feel really, really shitty about that. I do. But the question becomes, ask Hannah, did you commingle live bullets? What they call live rounds. When they say live rounds, that's a bullet that a police officer would shoot. Where did that come from in her kid? Did you catch that? Baldwin stated she, meaning Helena, is in critical condition at the hospital right now and I fired the gun. Baldwin said he fired the gun. Later in the interview, he said the gun went off.

A couple of months later, in an interview with ABC News anchor George Stephanopoulos, Baldwin denied firing the gun. It wasn't in the script for the trigger to be pulled. Well, the trigger wasn't pulled. I didn't pull the trigger. So you never pulled the trigger? No, no, no, no, no. I would never point a gun at anyone and pull a trigger at them. Never. Alec Baldwin may have to explain that discrepancy, or maybe he won't have to. I'll get to more on that later in the show with Ben Chu. Throughout Alec Baldwin's interview with the sheriff's detectives, he displayed some knowledge of guns from working on sets with guns in the past.

I know you said you don't own a gun, but are you experienced with shooting guns? Only as much as an actress has to be experienced. Okay, which is normally not... I mean, if you do a movie, safety with weapons is primary. You go off with people. You can walk with armaments people to ranges. I've gone to ranges in Arizona where we shot a lot of guns in a movie many years ago, and you go to a range and you shoot for a few hours,

and they teach you how to shoot shotguns, warfare, different, you know, little small guns, James Bond guns, big guns, Uzis, machine guns, whatever you're using, they make you go and rehearse for hours. Alec Baldwin also told the detectives who handed him the Colt 45 revolver that day. Right before this incident, Hannah handed you the gun and said, Colt. It wasn't David. Don't be cold. Hannah handed me the gun. It wasn't anybody else but Hannah. No, Hannah handed me the gun. And she specifically said?

I believe she said Colt. Alec Baldwin was emphatic that armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed handed the gun to him. She comes in, she hands me the gun all the time. And then what? With any shooting involved in the scene, she always hands me the gun. Never has Dave handed you the gun? Never. Okay.

But in the ABC interview, Baldwin made it sound as if Dave Halls handed him the gun. I'm handed a gun and someone declares, they said, this is a cold gun. Dave Halls? The first AD. him the gun. I'm handed a gun and someone declares, I said, this is a cold gun. Dave Hall's? The first AD. Alec Baldwin also ruled out the possibility that someone deliberately put a live round in that revolver. They've been very safety conscious here throughout. That's what puzzles me. Yeah. And I guess that's more like the question that I'm trying to get out is, do you think someone would deliberately do this? I can't imagine who would. Okay. Before Baldwin ever started talking with sheriff's detectives,

the interview room camera recorded him talking with his wife and someone else. What I am is someone who, I don't want to do this for them anymore. I don't want to be a public person. And I'm the one holding the gun in my hand that everybody was supposed to have taken care of. They always hand me a cold gun. Where are you now? Hey, everybody. I want to take a second to tell you about a great app that I've tried that will give you cash back on things like gas and food. It's called Upside. It's not a confusing rewards or point system.

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I want to bring in somebody who is no stranger to representing an A-list celebrity. He is Ben Chu. He represented actor Johnny Depp in his defamation trial against his ex-wife, Amber Heard. So Ben, first of all, thanks for coming on. What are the challenges of representing an A-list celebrity who really lives in a different world from the rest of us? They really do have a different lifestyle than most normal people. And Jeanette, first, it's great to be with you.

Thank you for having me on. It is different representing someone of Alec Baldwin's stature. They do live in a different world. They tend to be very concerned about their public image. So I can understand why he felt compelled not only to speak with the police, but also to go on national television and give an interview with George Stephanopoulos. I mean, first of all, that's not something an average person is less concerned with his or her public image than a prominent actor, entertainer or politician might be. He said something really interesting. He was he didn't I don't know if he realized he was being recorded during his interview with the sheriff's detectives, but they hadn't come in yet. And he said to someone he was talking on the phone with, I believe it was either his wife or someone he was close to. And he said, I don't want to do this anymore. I don't want to be a public person anymore. And I thought that was really interesting because he has been in the public eye for more

than 40 years now. He's an A-list celebrity. And maybe it just gets to be too much sometimes, the glare and the scrutiny. And this brought him under tremendous scrutiny. And Jeanette that's a really interesting comment. I hadn't heard that he'd made that statement. It doesn't surprise me. I've represented a few very prominent people in Hollywood and they deal with it differently. A number of them deal with that they go into semi-seclusion at times and they a lot of them have been taken advantage of by people they thought were their friends so they tend to have kind of a very close-knit group of people around them they're security security people, very, very close friends. So it is, they live in a bit, they often live in a bit of a cocoon. I think that probably gets,

I think they live in a bubble. Yeah, that's a better word. And I think that becomes tiresome with them. I remember at one point during the Deputy Heard trial, Johnny just wanted to go out and take a walk at night. It was a rare balmy night in Fairfax in May, and he wanted to go out and take a walk. And whereas you or I could go out and do that without having to make arrangements, he had to get his security ready. He had to map. They had to map out the route. It's just things that you and I take for granted, they can't do. And I can see him getting very frustrated. And this would be a traumatic event for anybody, you know, whether you're Alec Baldwin or somebody

on the street. But I think it had to be exacerbated by the fact that as a public figure, this was going to draw an enormous amount of extra scrutiny. And perhaps an ordinary person would never have even been charged under these circumstances. Well, Alec Baldwin is somebody who, you know, can ruffle some feathers. I mean, he's had brushes with the paparazzi in the past. He he can be a bit of a kind of a bruiser of sorts. You know, he's from Long Island. He's actually very eloquent when you listen to him speak in public or even in this police interview that he did with the sheriff's detectives. So he is well-spoken. You can tell he's well-read.

But at the same time, you know, he can get kind of rough and tumble when he has to. The courtroom is a much different place, though, than walking around in Manhattan or in Long Island or wherever you're representing Alec Baldwin, how do you advise him when he shows up to court every day to kind of present himself? Because this isn't going to be like the Johnny Depp trial where you show up and there are going to be alpacas running around and stuff like that. This is a trial. This is a trial where a woman lost her life. There is a much different vibe. So how do you how do you advise Alec Baldwin to present himself when he appears in court? Because he hasn't shown up for any of the pretrial hearings. That's a great question, Ingenette. I would advise him first and foremost, as you would your clients, to assume that at any at any given moment in the courtroom, there is at least one juror looking at him.

In other words, no matter who is testifying, whether the judge is speaking, no matter what's happening, there will be at least one juror and perhaps several jurors looking at him. So his demeanor, even when not speaking, is absolutely crucial. You're right. This is not going to be like the Debt Be Heard trial. There are not going to be any moments of levity at all. So this is not going to be appropriate for him to be smiling, to be joking around with his attorney, mugging for the cameras. He's going to have to have a dead serious demeanor and just assume that he is essentially the focus of everybody's attention every second he's in the courtroom and

he's going to have to behave accordingly. If that means he has to look down, that's fine. But he can't inject any levity. As you said, a young woman is dead here, and it's a tragedy. So that would be thing one. And I think to the extent, and we'll probably get to this a little later, there's going to be a momentous decision as to whether he testifies, I think he could be a very compelling witness for the reasons you say. He's telegenic. He is articulate. He is intelligent. That can be a double-edged sword. But I think if he really is dedicated to PrEP, I think he could make for a very compelling witness in his own defense. Well, now that you've gone there, let's talk about that. Because there is a question about,

like, I remember back when Johnny Depp was on the stand at trial, and a lot of people I know who work in the news business, or even my family members, you know, a lot of people are like, well, he's an actor, of course, he can get up there and he can act and he can do this or he can do that. I mean, they don't know Johnny Depp from Adam, right? I mean, none of us do. We know what we see in interviews or have seen in interviews in the past or what we've seen in maybe his films and things of that nature. But is there a concern that when you put a client on the stand that is an actor, that they act and that maybe they're not just being themselves? Yes, that is a real concern. In Johnny's case, we weren't because that was him. He wasn't acting. That was the real him.

And we knew that this was very important for him. There had been a prior trial in London where he really didn't have the opportunity to testify and to tell his story the way that system works. As you know, there's no direct examination. You're just subject to cross-examination where you're saying yes or no. So he was committed, win or lose, to telling his story in his own voice. So in that case, he wasn't acting. He was telling the truth. I won't say anything about the other side in that one way or the other, but it is a concern generally. And I would advise Mr. Baldwin if I could be so presumptuous to really be authentic and if he does testify to show his emotions because I recall shortly thereafter he really appeared genuinely devastated not only because he was in hot water, but I think he legitimately cared about Helena Hutchins.

And why wouldn't he? I mean, they got to know each other very well. You can't manufacture these things, but I think it would be very helpful for him to cry. If that's, you know, this is not the time for him to be the tough guy with several brothers, you know, from the jurors see how much this kills him inside. We have him on video on a police interview talking about what happened that day. And he talks about kind of shooting the gun. And then he talks to George Stephanopoulos in an interview with ABC News months later saying, I didn't pull the trigger. That wasn't in the script. It wasn't going to go off or whatever. So we have kind of some statements here that the jury could see as

conflicting. So do you think that he has to testify? I mean, no defendant in criminal court and in the criminal courts in our country has to testify. I mean, he has the right to not testify and take the stand. But is this something you would advise that maybe he does testify to explain what he believes happened and what was going on on that set? Because not only is he facing criminal liability, but civil liability as well. I think he has to testify. I think the original sin, and I don't mean a sin in the literal sense, but I think his mistake was giving a prior statement, certainly giving conflicting statements to the police and on national TV to George Stephanopoulos was an enormous mistake because, as you said, now you have contradictory statements.

I pulled the trigger. I didn't pull the trigger. I think he needs to explain that, explain what his recollection of the truth was. And as we talked about off camera, there is another possibility, which is that he may subjectively believe that he did not pull the trigger or do anything affirmatively to cause the bullet to hit her and the other gentleman, but that he just doesn't remember it. I mean, this happened in a split second. I mean, he's very clear on the fact that he just doesn't remember it. I mean, this happened in a split second. I mean, he's very clear on the fact that he thought the gun was not loaded. I don't think there's any reason to believe that he thought the gun was loaded or that he had any intent to put her in that kind of danger.

But I think it's a plausible scenario, and I've seen it in a civil case I handled, where the person just subjectively cannot believe that he did this because that would just exacerbate his own guilt. So I think it's quite possible that he simply doesn't remember. And unfortunately, he's made his life, if that's the truth, then he's made his life more complicated by coming out so clearly and saying, I did not pull the trigger. Because now there are going to be some jurors, especially if he doesn't testify, who think he was lying about that. because as I understand the forensic evidence, you know, does not support at least one version of his account. I think he's going to have to explain all of it. And I think the more accepting of fault and the possibility that he didn't remember everything, I think the more sympathetic the jury is going to be for him.

He repeatedly says in his police interview, you know, he explains how they rehearse and being given a cold gun and what that means and what the armor did each day that, you know, week and things of that nature. So it's interesting to listen to him recount all of this during the police interview. So and he was going to be. I didn't mean to wrap it up. I just think that's terrible for him. The more that he says that he knows what he's doing, that he has been trained and you never point a gun, you never point a

loaded gun at a person and he he also as i remember from from that interview he's talking about the wadding that can be in a gun he didn't think that even after the accident uh that there had been a bullet fired that he thought that it might be a wadding um that kept the gunpowder together and what the wadding is expelled, that can cause injury. And so she thought that actually she may have had a heart attack or suffered an injury from the wadding. All of that, I think, is really bad for him because he's no longer- He knows a lot about guns. Yes. And it was all about guns. And so now his attorney can't say, look, he's an actor. He's just an actor. You know, you had an armor. She was supposed to be the expert. Then there was another employee on the set. I mean, there are at least two people on the set who were supposed to be responsible for the gun to make sure it was safe, to make sure that it wasn't actually loaded. But it's harder for him now to make that argument because

he's like, I know you don't point a gun at a person. I know you don't pull the trigger. That's where, you know, we talked about earlier about his intelligence being a double-edged sword. He doesn't want people to think that he's an idiot or that he was careless. But in doing that as a public persona, protecting his image, I think he's really made his defense a lot more complicated. When he shows up for court, do you expect people to be there? I mean, you might have some looky-loos there hanging out, but do you expect him to put on a PR offensive at this trial? I mean, as we mentioned, this is not a civil case. This is not the Depp v. Hurd trial. Do you expect

him to have maybe supporters hanging out there, things of that nature? Or do you think this will be a little more toned down? And it's out in Santa Fe, New Mexico. It's not easy to get there. Yeah, I would hope not. I would hope that his people would definitely not encourage that and actively discourage that. I think there will be people who are curious. He has a lot of fans. He's a terrific actor. He's a great comedic actor, a famous family. So I think there's going to be a lot of media attention. You're going to be there. I mean, it's a big deal. But I really hope for his sake and really for everyone's sake, for the victim's family, that there isn't a circus-like atmosphere. I don't think there will be. I think people will understand that there's nothing happy about this. There's nothing, this isn't about, you know, Mr. Depp's case, it was about his vindication.

This isn't, there's going to be no vindication for Alec Baldwin. I mean, the best case scenario is for him, is that there's no criminal liability, but he's not going to come out of this a hero. You know, people are going to say, well, you know, he made a mistake, but he shouldn't suffer for it criminally. There's no good outcome. I mean, a young woman is dead, as you said at the beginning. I think that's that's where you start and that's where you end. So I hope everybody treats it with the solemnity that it deserves. Most certainly. And it doesn't matter if you believe after seeing the evidence that he is

not guilty or guilty. This is a tragedy. And it's a tragedy on many sides. It's the biggest tragedy for Helena Hutchins' family. It's terrible. She was a mother and a wife and a sister and a daughter. And it's tragic. And in the words of Dave Halls, the first AD, it should never, ever happen again. Ben Chu, thank you so much for coming on. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix.

I'm Anjanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.