Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Luigi Mangione Could Be Set Free For This Reason

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. On the subject of jury nullification and Luigi, for those of you who have never seen it and are just hearing the words jury nullification now. Social media is full of talk about jury nullification and luigi mangioni as users call on jurors to ignore potential evidence of his guilt and acquit him i look at jury nullification and whether it's possible in the united healthcare ceo's murder welcome to crime fix i'm anjanette levy luigi mangioni he's not even back in new york to face murder charges in

Starting point is 00:00:43 the death of united healthcare ceo brian thom. And social media is full of people calling for him to be freed. And they're discussing jury nullification, which sounds pretty technical. And I'll get into that more in a bit. Mangione currently faces a second degree murder charge in the December 4th shooting death of Brian Thompson in Manhattan. The crime was recorded on video. And so far, the NYPD says it's collected a mountain of evidence implicating Mangione in the crime, including his own words in which he takes responsibility for the shooting.

Starting point is 00:01:17 Independent journalist, Ken Klippenstein, posted the entire statement on his sub stack. To the feds, I'll keep this short because I do respect what you do for our country. To save you a lengthy investigation, I state plainly that I wasn't working with anyone. This was fairly trivial, some elementary social engineering, basic CAD, which is computer-aided design, a lot of patience. The spiral notebook, if present, has some straggling notes and to-do lists that illuminate the gist of it.

Starting point is 00:01:45 It continues later. I do apologize for any strife of traumas, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. As a reminder, the U.S. has the number one most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly number 42 in life expectancy. United is the largest company in the U.S. by market cap behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but has our life expectancy? No, the reality is these have simply gotten too powerful and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit

Starting point is 00:02:17 because the American public has allowed them to get away with it. Obviously, the problem is more complex, but I do not have space. And frankly, I do not pretend to be the most qualified person to lay out the full argument, but many have illuminated the corruption and greed, e.g. Rosenthal Moore, decades ago, and the problems simply remain. It is not an issue of awareness at this point, but clearly power games at play.

Starting point is 00:02:41 Evidently, I am the first to face it with such brutal honesty. The commissioner of the NYPD says testing on the 3D printed gun found on Mangione at the time of his arrest matched shell casings found at the crime scene. And remember those photos police released in an effort to ID the shooter? Police say they're clearly Mangione. Look at those distinctive eyes in the one in the back of the cab. Mangione is being held in a prison in Pennsylvania as he fights extradition to New York. However, Manhattan D.A. Alvin Bragg said that that could change.

Starting point is 00:03:14 Indications are that the defendant may waive, but that waiver is not complete until a court proceeding, which my understanding from court officials in Pennsylvania cannot happen until Tuesday. So until that time, we're going to continue to press forward on parallel paths and we'll be ready whether he is going to waive extradition or whether he's going to contest extradition. The DA's office is presenting evidence to a grand jury to indict Luigi Mangione for Brian Thompson's murder. So he'll be brought back to New York eventually. And that could happen later this week. And that is where he'll stand trial if he takes the case to trial. And that raises questions about the jury. Karen Friedman Agnifilo confirms she has been retained to represent Luigi Mangione in New York.

Starting point is 00:04:03 Friedman Agnifilo worked in the Manhattan DA's office for years and was the chief deputy under then DA Cyrus Vance. So she knows the office very well. She's also married to Sean Combs' attorney, Mark Agnifilo, if that name sounds familiar. Agnifilo's office says she's not commenting on the case at this time.

Starting point is 00:04:22 Now Manhattan's a big place with a large jury pool and already users on X and TikTok, they're trying to influence potential jurors, at least some of them. They're talking about what I mentioned earlier, jury nullification. Cornell's law school explains it like this. Jury nullification refers to a jury's knowing and deliberate rejection of the evidence or refusal to apply the law, either because the jury wants to send a message about some social issue that is larger than the case itself, or because the result dictated by law is contrary to the jury's sense of justice, morality, or fairness. Essentially, with jury nullification, the jury returns a not guilty

Starting point is 00:05:01 verdict, even if jurors believe beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant broke the law this can occur because a not guilty verdict cannot be overturned and jurors are protected regardless of their verdicts users of x and tick tock are talking about jury nullification as i mentioned and one tick tock user has called upon prospective jurors who aren't even close to being selected yet, to find Luigi Mangione not guilty, explaining jury nullification. Jury nullification is legal. Do not let Luigi go down for this because let's get real, it's awful odd. Even if he did it, none of us give a damn about the man that died. His wife, maybe a few of his friends,

Starting point is 00:05:46 not the rest of us, because what they did, what they've been doing is even worse. So remember, jury nullification is legal because they're most likely going to put him on trial in New York City. There's certainly a lot of anger at the health insurance industry for denial of claims. And what Luigi Mangione is accused of doing has struck a chord with some people who look at him as a folk hero. And they're sympathetic to Mangione because of his back surgery that he apparently had in 2023 to repair a painful spinal condition. There are some recent examples of jury nullification. Dr. Jack Kevorkian was acquitted in three trials in which he helped terminally ill patients end their lives. He was convicted of second degree murder in a fifth trial

Starting point is 00:06:31 after a fourth ended in a mistrial. And some consider OJ Simpson's acquittal in 1995 for the murders of his ex-wife, Nicole Brown Simpson, and her friend Ron Goldman as an act of jury nullification. So could it happen in Luigi Mangione's case? The cases I cover each day here on Crime Fix show you just how scary the world can be. And one of the scariest things that can happen is if you ever get hurt. But I want you to know if you're ever seriously hurt or in an accident, your case could be worth millions. And that's where Morgan & Morgan comes in.

Starting point is 00:07:03 The firm has more than 1,000 lawyers who will fight for what you deserve and they have the track record to prove it. In the past few months, Morgan & Morgan has won big verdicts like $12 million in Florida, $26 million in Philly, and $6.8 million in New York. All of those were much higher than the highest insurance company offer. Seeing if you have a case can be done in eight clicks or less, and you don't even have to leave your couch to start one. Also a really great thing, you only pay Morgan & Morgan if you win. There are no upfront fees. So if you're ever hurt, you can easily start a claim at ForThePeople.com slash CrimeFix. I want to bring in Nima Rahmani. He is an entertainment

Starting point is 00:07:39 lawyer, a former federal prosecutor, and just an all-around good guy, lawyer extraordinaire. So Nima, you think that jury nullification is possible in Luigi Mangione's case. I mean, that's where basically the jury just ignores the law and ignores the evidence and just says, not guilty, just because you think there's a lot of sympathy for him. And Jeanette, I've never seen so much sympathy for an accused murderer. Never. And I've been doing this more than 20 years. It's just, I mean, there's so many reasons why, which I'll get into. But I'm sure the comments below on law and crime, you're going to have people that think that he should be freed, even though they believe that he killed Thompson, the United Healthcare CEO.

Starting point is 00:08:26 And some of it may be their own issues with health insurance claims and prior authorizations and denials. A lot of people have frustrations with their health insurance company or the industry in general. And then the other reason is, let's be honest, here is someone who is less sympathetic and the whole industry that is maligned and disliked, I think this is a very real possibility in this case and something that District Attorney Alvin Bragg in Manhattan has to be concerned about. I think they are concerned about it. I mean, Kathy Hochul, the governor of New York, has been on some news programs talking about how an indictment is coming any day, that the grand jury is hearing evidence. They've been putting out, Nima, so much information about this case. Yes, it's a high profile case. I get that. But so much information like, oh, we matched the gun to the crime scene. They put that out. Oh, we found this. We found that. They've been doing it. I mean, they're putting out a lot of information. Now, granted, this is a unique case because there was a nationwide man

Starting point is 00:09:59 hunt. You don't often see somebody murdered on camera on the streets in New York City, a CEO of a health insurance company. But I think they are worried. And I think that they see the sympathy. I mean, I showed TikTok videos earlier in the show. TikTok saying, hashtag free Luigi, jury nullification. They're directing it at prospective jurors saying, you have the right to do this. So I think that they are concerned. They see what is happening and they see that, oh my God, there are so much anger at corporations and the health insurance industry over this, that there are people who do not care that Brian Thompson was murdered. There is. And Angela, I'm big on TikTok too,

Starting point is 00:10:52 spend a lot of time there. And you're absolutely right. I mean, overwhelmingly, it seems like people there are supporting Luigi Mangione, which I would never think was possible. And, you know, I think part of the issue with what you're talking about is all the resources that have been spent on this case. And again, Brian Thompson is a human being. He absolutely did not deserve to die as a wife, or it was a strange for me that he has kids. We can't have this type of, you know, vigilante justice, even if you don't like the healthcare industry. But still, I just, the resources that have been spent on this case, people on TikTok are saying, well, what if this was someone who wasn't a CEO and wasn't a millionaire, you know?

Starting point is 00:11:39 How many murders happen in New York City every year that are unsolved because they don't bring in the FBI and the governor isn't talking about it? How many trafficked women and people of color? So it's almost the backlash the other way because I understand why you can't have this type of lawlessness and assassination execution in broad daylight in midtown Manhattan, just for safety reasons, for public relations reasons. But people are saying, well, what about my loved one who's missing? Or what about my crime that's gone unsolved? How come the government isn't spending those types of resources on those other cases? And I think that that's a legitimate question. You know, I was doing some research and trying to go back in recent memory and looking at cases where jury nullification took place.

Starting point is 00:12:34 And when you kind of Google it, you don't really find that many. However, there are people who think that the OJ Simpson case is a prime example of jury nullification because the jury in that case, there were jurors interviewed afterwards who said, yeah, I think he did it, but this was for Rodney King. It was payback for Rodney King. So that, in some respects, people saw that as a sign of jury nullification, despite the fact that there were issues with the investigation and, you know, the Mark Furman aspect of it, the Marcia Clark aspect of it, the, you know,

Starting point is 00:13:09 if the glove doesn't fit, you must acquit, all that jazz. So people look at that as maybe an example of jury nullification, but you don't really see it happen all that often. Also, another example was Jack Kevorkian. You know, he acquitted. And that was on camera as well, assisted suicide. So can you think of any other cases where it would be an example of jury nullification actually happening? I think those are two of the best examples, because oftentimes, even when we have a shocking jury verdict, jurors don't come out and say, yeah, I think he did it, but I decided to completely disregard the law and the judge's instructions. Most of them don't do that. But I think OJ is probably the best example. And obviously one of the most famous cases in American

Starting point is 00:13:58 history, because you had not necessarily a defendant who was really sympathetic, but I think people in Los Angeles were really upset at the Rodney King verdicts. I mean, the first not guilty. And even in the federal case, there were still some not guilties. Only a couple of the officers were convicted. I mean, that was shocking because it was caught on video. And I think more than that, you have Furman, you have the LAPD, just the horrible racist evidence that came out. They really wanted to punish law enforcement in that case. So even though they weren't a party necessarily, or because they were investigating the case, and

Starting point is 00:14:40 I think the jurors were so fed up with the corruption and the racism in LAPD and Rampart happened around that time as well. I mean, jurors wanted to send a message that, listen, like, we're not going to side with someone that we don't like. We're not going to side with LAPD. Jack Kevorkian, of course, assisted suicide. A lot of people had a lot of sympathy for him. They thought that here's someone who's helping people during the most dire time in their life. So they wanted to send a message that we did not think

Starting point is 00:15:17 that this case should even have been prosecuted. So obviously assisted suicide, there's people on both sides that have very strong feelings about it, but it's not really too dissimilar from health insurance. There are a lot of people that have very strong feelings about it, and that may come out during jury selection and more importantly, deliberations. nullification probably if you're a defense attorney and you're going for that, I assume it's all about picking the right jury and it's going to come down to jury selection and really feeling out those jurors during voir dire. Oh, no question. You know, you want those stealth jurors, right? Jurors that are going to be on your side, but aren't going to tell the prosecution and the judge that they're on your side. So that's the type of juror that can hang a panel.

Starting point is 00:16:07 That's the type of juror that could potentially cause them to acquit. Now, obviously, we know as prosecutors, I'm a former prosecutor, I'm going to take that perspective. We need to get 12 out of 12. So if we even get one of those types of jurors, those sympathetic jurors to luigi mangi on the panel that's a huge problem because it doesn't matter if you're just looking at the evidence in the case engine it's really overwhelming right you have the video we've

Starting point is 00:16:36 talked about that his dna on the water bottle near the scene there's a fingerprint apparently on the burner phone you know You have the ballistics that match as well. So you got fingerprint, DNA, ballistics, lots of forensic evidence. A letter claiming, the manifesto claiming responsibility. So you got the motive there. It's him. So it's a very strong case in terms of the evidence. I don't know what Mangino is going to do, if he's going to push the case to trial, if it's going to take a plea. Obviously, New York doesn't have a death penalty anymore, hasn't had it for 20 years. I don't know what motivation he'll have to take any type of plea. He might just roll the dice. But it's really a strong case in terms of the

Starting point is 00:17:18 evidence that we have. And obviously, we cover a lot of murders on law and crime. Some of them are cold cases. Some of them are tough cases. This is an easy case in terms of the evidence, but in terms of the sympathy and the potential for jury nullification, not an easy case at all. He's a smart guy. Okay. Valedictorian of his class, Ivy league school. He's got a bachelor's and a master's. He planned this whole thing out. I mean, he planned it out. He's smart. Okay. He's smart. I think he, you know, if he indeed is the guy, I mean, he's accused at this point, he's charged. I think he wanted to get caught. I mean, he wrote the manifesto. He knew he was eventually going to get caught. Do you think he mapped this out in his mind?

Starting point is 00:18:06 Do you think he wanted to go to prison and was willing to go to prison? Or do you think he's got some kind of plan? Yeah, he is obviously very smart. I haven't seen someone as smart as him maybe since Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. And obviously, it appears that Mangione had read Kaczynski's manifesto. I think in some ways, it's a little bit different, obviously, it appears that Mangione had read Krasinski's Manifesto. I think in some ways it's a little bit different, obviously, a different time. And we talked about the technology, right? Krasinski was living off the grid, you know, no electricity, no water. So he was able to kind of conduct these very smart letter bombings over the course of many years.

Starting point is 00:18:44 But Mangione, obviously, he was smart. He certainly had a plan, right? He had the fake IDs, he got the burner phone, the escape path, and all that. He obviously knew where Thompson was going to be at that moment, right? He had enough sophistication to print a 3D gun. But ultimately, the question I have is, you're right. Why admit to it in writing when there's the possibility that you're going to get caught? You know, there's a manhunt out for you. And why don't you leave the country, right? You have all this cash, you have some foreign currency as well. Why are you hanging out in broad daylight at a McDonald's in Pennsylvania when you're the most wanted man in the United States? So maybe he did indeed want to

Starting point is 00:19:25 get caught. Obviously, we don't know much about him. We saw some yelling while he was being transported to his first court proceedings. So maybe there's some mental health issues. Maybe he's trying to send some sort of message here. But I think we'll know a lot more about him in the coming days and weeks. His lawyer said, his lawyer told CNN that he was mad he didn't have a lawyer and that's what that was about. But then he got into court and saw he had a lawyer and that kind of calmed him down. So I thought that was really interesting as well. Nima Rahmani, we're going to watch it unfold together. Thank you so much. Thanks, Anjanette. Talk soon. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette

Starting point is 00:20:04 Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.

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Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Luigi Mangione Could Be Set Free For This Reason

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Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Luigi Mangione Could Be Set Free For This Reason

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