Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Notorious Child Killer Susan Smith Up for Parole: ‘I’d Be a Good Stepmom’

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Susan Smith spent nine days in 1994 claiming a black man carjacked her with her toddler sons, Michael and Alexander, in the backseat. Smith later confessed to rolling her car into a lake in Union County, South Carolina and allowing the boys to drown as they were strapped in their car seats. The case made headlines around the world and now, 30 years later, Smith is coming up for parole. Law&Crime’s Angenette Levy talks with Tommy Pope, the former solicitor who prosecuted Smith about the case and her bid for release in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show that delves into the biggest stories in crime.Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest: Tommy Pope  https://twitter.com/tommypopeSCCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoAudio Editing - Brad MaybeGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@LawandCrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. Whoever has my children, that they please, I mean, please bring them home. That was Susan Smith in October 1994, begging for the safe return of her two young sons, who it turned out she murdered. Now Smith's coming up for parole and the prosecutor who put her in prison is here to say whether or not he believes she should be released. Thanks for joining me for Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. The case of Susan Smith and her missing sons captured the attention of the nation. This was back, of course,

before everyone had a cell phone. It was before social media and the search for Smith's two sons, three-year-old Michael and 14-month-old Alexander, was the top story on the national news for days. Smith called police in Union, South Carolina and claimed a black man carjacked her and took the car with her two little boys in the backseat. As you saw, Smith went on national television begging for the carjacker to bring back her children. But the entire time, little Michael and Alexander, those poor defenseless little boys, were strapped in their car seats. They were dead in the backseat of their mother's car that she had let roll into the bottom of John D. Long Lake.

A jury found Smith guilty but opted to send her to prison for life instead of giving her the death penalty. Later this year, Susan Smith will be up for parole because at the time she was sentenced, life didn't mean life. She would be eligible for parole after serving just 30 years. Since she's been in prison, Susan Smith has been in some trouble. She's been caught using drugs. She's had sexual relationships, including one with a prison guard. She's lost phone and canteen privileges a number of times, but hasn't been in trouble since about 2015. One thing that I think is important to note, Susan Smith has been in prison for almost 30 years and she has not earned one educational

credit. Not one. But she has spent a lot of time talking to people who want to date her. The now-defunct outlet The Messenger reported last year that Smith told one man that she thought she'd be a good stepmom. And that man was quoted as saying back to her, you'd be great, babe. Prosecutors argued at trial that Susan Smith killed her sons because a man she was having an affair with told her in a letter that he didn't want children. Smith, meanwhile, claimed she had a psychotic breakdown and had garnered some sympathy because her stepfather had sexually abused her as a teenager. Joining me is somebody who knows more about Susan Smith's case than

anybody. He's Tommy Pope. He prosecuted Susan Smith and put her in prison. Tommy, thanks for coming on. Take me back. Yeah, thank you. Take me back to 1994 and getting that call that these two little boys were missing. Sure. So I was the elected solicitor. That's our district attorney here in South Carolina. I had two counties. I had York, which was my larger, more affluent county, and then Union County, which was my smaller county. We would have court about once a month in Union. And it really, it was just kind of a small, you know, kind of population decreasing mill town. You know, the textiles had kind of moved out. And so I had been elected, let's see, I got elected in 92. So I'd been elected just a few years. I was 30, let's see, 30 years old when I got elected.

I always laughed. I said, I got elected really to tackle the backlog. Our circuit had the worst backlog in the state. And I said, I don't know if people saw merit in me or thought I couldn't do any worse than the other guy because we had the worst backlog in the state. So I got elected in 92. It was really kind of focusing on dealing with the backlog. And again, union was smaller, didn't really ever have a problem. Actually, when this case came up, you know, the initial report of the carjacker, I'd been a law enforcement officer before I'd worked at the South Carolina Law Enforcement Division. And so when I heard the carjacker story, it just didn't really jive. I was staying in touch with the sled agents,

they would call me, I was actually in trial over in York County. I'd tell people I was doing the Lord's work. I was prosecuting the preacher who had embezzled from the daycare center. So I was doing the heavy lifting over there. But I got a call most nights on the way the investigation was going. I think it went like nine days with Susan pleading to the media and all this. And then I remember I had just finished that case and i got a call that um that the boys had been located in john d long lake so i got in the car and went down to john d long lake that night when you get to the lake and you see that vehicle pulled out of the water and these these poor little boys i mean these are the most defenseless. I mean, 14 months, three years old.

They're in their car seats. They've been placed in a lake by their mother. Most the most defenseless of victims. I just can't even imagine. Yeah. You know, it's I mean, I've been to it in my law enforcement career and in my prosecution career, I've been to a lot of crime scenes. And I went there intentionally because, you know, we'd already kind of dealt with the nine days media pressure. So you knew it was going to be OJ Simpson was going on at the time. And this was, you know, I'd had a lot of, you know, big cases, but media wise, this one, you know, Susan Smith herself had kind of drawn it along you know crying about the babies and needing help so I went down for one obviously to see what was occurring but two so that later on if I got tired or I got worn out and you know didn't want to proceed I'd remember what it was about and so

what I saw that night was a car pulled out with the two boys still in the car seats. I saw grown men crying. And again, I think it was as much of the tragedy as the heartbreak because people have been searching for those kids. People have been searching for those carjackers, working, working, working, hoping to recover those kids. And then to see it come to that, it was devastating. I always remember because I had a young son at the time, the difficulty we go through as parents swapping those car seats, I'm going to take them out of my car and put them in your car and then we're going to get the kids in. And you know, it's really a lot of work

to keep them safe. And I did see kind of some raw irony that, you know, the very devices that are supposed to protect them ultimately with the implements of their death. Yeah. You know, little Michael, three years old, Alexander, 14 months, you know, their father believed this story that a black man had carjacked his wife and kidnapped the children, taken the vehicle. Maybe he didn't want to kidnap children, but had certainly taken the vehicle. And one thing that gets me, and I remember this, I remember this very vividly. I mean, I remember this. This was back before the internet really, before social media. This was a huge story. this was on the news

every night and people were just like my god um you know i i hope they find these children i think a red flag though is this whole story about you know a black man uh carjacked me stole my car and took my children i feel like and whenever i hear that you know i've heard that over and over in other cases too. It almost takes me back to like, to kill a mockingbird. It sounds so absurd. Was that in any way a red flag for you with this case? Well, and initially I really thought, like I said, I was in trial in the other case, but I wasn't, I mean, not that I didn't care about the kids being returned, but I wasn't overly concerned that what she was saying happened had really happened. I actually thought perhaps

it was some type of domestic situation. You know, she was estranged from her husband a little bit. Maybe she hides the kids out with her cousin, you know, down at Myrtle Beach or something like that, you know, to create some drama. Because from a law enforcement standpoint, there's a reason you call them a carjacker. It's not a womanjacker, that's a kidnapper. It's not a babyjacker. Their hierarchy is they're normally looking for the car, then they may be looking for money, then maybe a female to assault. So it's so far down the line that, and then when she tells her story that he tells her, he stops long enough for her to get out, but says, I don't have time to let the kids out. Makes no sense. Like you said, you've heard of the cases where inadvertently, I steal

your car, not realizing the baby's asleep in the back. You know, you've seen some cases like that. And very often those cases, they put the baby out at the gas station or something and, you know, take off with the car. So it really wasn't over-concerning. I don't think it really hit home until we found the boys to realize that this was much bigger in a horrible, horrible way than we ever thought. When did you all realize, or when did the SLED agents realize that maybe Susan was not being honest about what had happened? You know, in a strange twist, and like you said, back then, you know, we didn't have all the different news sources we can, but she was drawn from the beginning to the opportunity and the attention

of being on the media. I remember I had raw footage from Channel 7 out of Spartanburg that was the first people on the scene to the house she went to. They had called David to come to the scene and they're about to do the video. The camera lights are off. That was back in the old days when you had a big boy like me carrying the cameras and then you had the anchor person doing the work. So the anchor person says something to the effect, so David and Susan are standing in front of them ready for the camera and she says, okay, when the lights come on, then I'm going to ask you your name and then what happened, whatever. Right before the lights come on, Susan looks at David and kind of giggles like it's exciting, like they're going to be on TV. You know what I mean?

And of course, poor David looks like a deer in the headlights. He looks like a guy who was just told your kids have been stolen. And so going through it, there were always kind of little instances, but I was going to say the media intensity, you know, because ultimately she was on every national media, you know, interviewed like the Today Show and all this stuff. And she was fine when she was getting the accolades and the sympathy. When they started questioning her a little bit, she started, you know, cracking. And so I think that media pressure helped. And then there were just slowly inconsistencies. The other thing is law enforcement always runs a dual investigation. If you tell me an alien took your child, then I'm going to go work

on the alien case too. But I'm also going to check the logical things like family members. And so, you know, sometimes people say that's offensive, but you have to check out the victim's family too, to kind of check that off the list. Fortunately, they kept that working and ultimately it proved they were looking in the right spot. You sought the death penalty, but she ended up getting life. And so do you have any inkling as to why that was? I mean, I'm not asking you to make a statement on the morality of the death penalty or anything like that. But I mean, this is a very heinous case.

And I know there was a lot out there at the time about the fact that I think Susan's stepfather had been engaged in some type of sexual relationship with her. She may have been a victim of sexual abuse, but there was also some questions about, I don't know, if it was consensual and if it was continuing. I mean, that's a whole different kind of conversation. So this is a woman who's got some major issues. Yes. And so I'll give you kind of my view because it's funny, you know, OJ was going on. OJ started before and ended after. And we got a lot of credit,

South Carolina as a whole, because they think anybody with an accent like this, you know, it's going to be like Duke's a hazard or something, you know, when we try a case. And so, you know, we had a tight window and the case went well. As far as the death penalty itself, and I know you said you're not, you know, trying to get too deep. I always said, you know, the defense, David Ruck, they did a tremendous job. Their whole goal is to make sure it is not the death penalty. You know, that's, they do death penalty defense all the time. And I always say, I'm not the yin to their yang. I don't wake up, you know, bloodthirsty every morning going, who can I execute? You know, I just view it more

almost like a military officer. If we have the death penalty in South Carolina, and I do believe in death penalty, if we have it, then you got to have people with the courage and the strength to work to apply it. Well, in this circumstance, I tried to treat Susan the same way I think anybody else should have been treated in that circumstance. If we didn't have the death penalty, whatever the most stringent penalty was, you know, whatever we would have had, that's what she deserved. I also thought if the black man had done it, they would have run me out of office if I didn't seek the death penalty. If David Smith had committed the crime, same deal. So I just thought Susan needed to be treated

in the same manner. The difficulty there is it makes people uncomfortable to think, one, a mother would do that. Two, somebody that looks like our coworker, our sister. You know, it's almost easier for us to accept if it is the bad guy, because you can figure out how it won't happen to you and I. Because every day I left work, my wife was home with our child, you know, and I never feared for my child's life.

So that was a reason, that and my time with David Smith, you know, convinced me that going forward, even though it'd been easier to kind of pull the plug and not seek the death penalty, going forward was the right move. From the jury themselves, one, back then until 1996, jurors were not told that life did not mean life. In 1996 in South Carolina, it started meaning, you know, if you got a life sentence, you'd serve life. Back then it was parole eligibility for 30 years. And that's, hence, we're talking about it now, 30 years later. So many of the jurors thought that if she was in jail, she would be remorseful. Think about the boys and that life sentence would be, you know, more appropriate. If she was remorseful, maybe about the boys and that life sentence would be, you know, more appropriate. If she was remorseful, maybe I'd agree, but you've seen from her conduct in prison, you know, sex with

guards and other things that she's been focused on Susan, you know, not that. The second thing I'd say, and again, I give the defense credit, we did not change venue. We stayed in Union County for the jury and pretty much everybody knows everybody. So there was also the component that if I give your loved one the death penalty, I'm going to see you at the grocery store, you know, later. And I think that puts some pressure on jurors too. You mentioned her conduct in prison and, you know, prison's supposed to be about rehabilitation and that, that's a whole nother conversation too. I mean, sometimes people are just kind of warehoused and sometimes they get better, sometimes they get worse, but it's also up to them to, you know,

take part in some programming or something to better themselves. And, and you're right, she's gotten in trouble with, with with for having sex with a prison guard. You know, I think she's had some other relationships when she's been in there, maybe with some inmates. She's having she's has suitors in there. You know, she has people in there. She's having these conversations on her tablet or what have you. And I think I read one where the guy said that she'd be a great mom. You know, you'd be a great mom, babe. And I just can't even imagine that. Like, I think Susan Smith needs to be kept as far away from children as humanly possible. I mean, are you going to oppose her release when she comes up for parole? Because I can't imagine, I'm not seeing many signs. She hasn't gotten into big

trouble recently, but I'm not seeing any signs. She hasn't gotten into big trouble recently, but I'm not seeing many signs that show me that there's been a whole lot of rehabilitation here. I think you assessed it well. I think, you know, if you look at her record over the 30 years, I mean, I've seen much, much worse, you know, behavior-wise, assaults on the guards, you know, contraband, things of that nature.

I think to me, her behavior is a reflection of who she is, which is really, Susan's always been about Susan. I mean, all the way even going back to, you know, laughing about we're going to be on TV or the sled agent taking her to the polygraph and her flirting with them saying, it's a beautiful day. I wish you and I were riding to the beach instead of doing this. Or, you know, she's just, I mean, it's the way she's wired. She's always been about how things affect her. I mean, and nothing more telling than, you know, what happened with the kids. But so I try not to be vindictive about parole, but I try to kind of call it the way I see it. And so normally what I tell the parole board is I believe in truth in sentencing.

The jury gave her life under the belief she would be serving in life and that that's what she needs to do. It'll be interesting. I assume we'll hear from David Smith. I always tell people, ultimately cameras were excluded from the courtroom and you kind of darned it if you do, darn if you don't, if you're a prosecutor. If I act like I want cameras, then it's because I'm a glory hound. If I act like I don't, then I've got something to hide. But in this circumstance, I said, selfishly, the only thing I wish everybody in the country, everybody in the world could have seen David Smith's testimony. Because, you know, by the time we got ready to try, we were ready right after the first of the year.

This happened kind of around Halloween. And the defense said they needed more time. And what they did, they kind of worked the public opinion. And that's when you started hearing Susan, the victim, you know, whether it was a victim of the stepfather, the victim of the husband, the victim of the boyfriend or whatever. And so by the time we get around to trial, I was having people question why I was even trying poor Susan. And I always said when David Smith took the stand in the penalty phase of death penalty case, what I would always do is basically bring the victims back to life. In other words,

I would talk about the good times, you know, and he, David talked about Michael couldn't say Dalmatians, he liked 101 diametrons, you know, and he would tell stories, tell a story about taking them to the park, tell stories, sadly or ironically, how the boys didn't like to take baths. They didn't like to get wet, which was, you know, odd in and of itself. But by the time David got through, I would then take him, basically I'd bring the loved ones alive and then go to their death again. And so David went through that whole range of emotions. And I said, if anybody could have seen that man testify, because, you know, it would have been easier for him to walk away too. But if anybody could have seen David Smith testify,

they'd know why we were in that courtroom that day. Yeah, most definitely. What a horrible case. Tommy Pope, we will keep an eye on it and see what happens at that hearing in November. Thank you so much for coming on. We appreciate it. Absolutely. Thanks for your time today. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. Thanks for being with us. We'll see you back here next time.