Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Obsession Over Luigi Mangione Booms Across Social Media

Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad-free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. And I don't really think Luigi was evil in what he did. I truly believe the man was justified in his actions. From TikTok to X and GoFundMe, a cult following has developed for accused murderer Luigi Mangione, the man charged with murdering UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. An FBI profiler joins me to look at why so many people are backing a man accused of committing a murder captured on camera. Welcome to Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. When Brian Thompson was murdered

Starting point is 00:00:43 on the street in Manhattan on December 4th, it was recorded on video. We could see a masked man with a backpack lying in wait and then shooting Thompson from behind. Police now say that man is Luigi Mangione, a 26-year-old man from Maryland. He seems like an unlikely suspect. He was the valedictorian of his high school class at an elite private school. Mangione went to an Ivy League school, graduating from the University of Pennsylvania with a bachelor's and master's degree in computer science and engineering. This is someone who had a head start in life. He came from a good family that was financially well off. Now he's sitting in a prison in

Starting point is 00:01:20 Pennsylvania, fighting extradition to New York, where he's charged with second degree murder and a handful of other charges. Mangione's arrest unfolded in dramatic fashion earlier this week. On Monday, when Altoona police got a call that someone at a McDonald's believed a man eating a hash brown was the shooter from New York, police said they recovered a ghost gun made on a 3D printer. And the commissioner of the NYPD says that gun matched shell casings found at the scene where Brian Thompson was shot to death. Then there's the manifesto that police said they found in Luigi Mangione's backpack where he appeared to take credit for the shooting, writing, I do apologize for any strife of traumas, but it had to be done. Frankly, these parasites simply had it coming. A reminder,

Starting point is 00:02:05 the U.S. has the number one most expensive healthcare system in the world, yet we rank roughly number 42 in life expectancy. United is the largest company in the U.S. by market cap, behind only Apple, Google, Walmart. It has grown and grown, but has our life expectancy? No, the reality is these have simply gotten too powerful and they continue to abuse our country for immense profit because the American public has allowed them to get away with it. Following Mangione's arrest, Pennsylvania Governor Josh Shapiro condemned celebrations of Luigi Mangione. Brian Thompson was a father to two. He was a husband and he was a friend to many. And yes, he was the CEO of a health insurance company. In America, we do not kill people in cold blood to resolve policy differences

Starting point is 00:02:59 or express a viewpoint. I understand people have real frustration with our health care system, and I have worked to address that throughout my career. But I have no tolerance, nor should anyone, for one man using an illegal ghost gun to murder someone because he thinks his opinion matters most. In a civil society, we are all less safe when ideologues engage in vigilante justice. I want to tell you about Upside. It's a free app that gets you cash back on things like gas and restaurants. This is real cash back. It's money that appears in your Upside app that you can transfer straight into your bank account. I used Upside when I went to Dunkin' Donuts for a cup of tea. I claimed an offer for Dunkin' on the app, paid as usual using a card, and followed the steps, and got cash back.

Starting point is 00:03:58 It's so easy. You can also use Upside at places like Shell, Exxon, 7-Eleven, Taco Bell, and that's just to name a few. To find out how much you could earn, click the link in the description to download Upside or scan the QR code on your screen and use our promo code CRIMEFIX to get an extra 25 cents back on every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's promo code CRIMEFIX for extra cash back. But you don't have to go far on the internet to see there are people who disagree with Governor Shapiro, and they are celebrating Luigi Mangione and supporting what he's accused of doing, murdering Brian Thompson. Take a look at this post from X. This is Luigi Mangione,

Starting point is 00:04:36 the potential shooter of UnitedHealthcare CEO Brian Thompson. While he gets support online, the media hates him. But is he really guilty? Another post reads, just going to leave this here. Hashtag free Luigi. Hashtag free Luigi Mangione. It then has the definition of jury nullification. That's when there's clear evidence of a defendant's guilt, but a jury refuses to find a person guilty or when a jury ignores the facts of the case or the law. Even TikTok users are calling on potential jurors to find Luigi Mangione not guilty, and he's not even in New York yet. Jury nullification is legal. Do not let Luigi go down for this because let's get real, it's awful odd. Even if he did it, none of us give a damn about the man that died.

Starting point is 00:05:27 His wife, maybe a few of his friends, not the rest of us. Because what they did, what they've been doing is even worse. So remember, jury nullification is legal. Because they're most likely going to put him on trial in New York City. And people in other countries are supporting Mangione. Liberen a Luigi. Esta es una de las cientas de camisetas con mensajes para que dejen libre al asesino. There are other videos celebrating Luigi Mangione and calling for him to be freed,

Starting point is 00:05:59 also using the hashtag FreeLuigi. GoFundMe has shut down fundraisers for Luigi Mangione's defense fund. But on Give, Send, Go, a fundraiser is up and running. It's raised more than $35,000. And there are messages of support. One says, you have given me hope, my hero. People are angry at the health insurance industry and the people who run it. And there are so many people in this country who have terrible, terrible stories health care and dealing with insurance companies but Brian Thompson was a man who was shot in cold blood from behind as he walked down the street he had no idea what was coming he had children and other family members who loved him I want to bring in somebody who's perfect to talk

Starting point is 00:06:41 about this subject and all of these people fawning over Luigi Mangiano, she is a former FBI profiler. She's also formerly the head nurse of the Institute of Psychiatry at Northwestern University Hospital and the host of the award-winning podcast, Killer Psyche. She is Candice DeLong. Candice, thank you so much for joining me. I am so excited to talk to you about this.

Starting point is 00:07:03 Tell me if you would, why are people coming out of the woodwork and supporting Luigi Mangione when he is accused of murdering somebody on camera? Mm-hmm. Exactly. Well, it's, let's see, what's the word? It saddens me to see it, but this is not new. Jesse James, Billy the Kid, bad guys have always had followings. Ted Kaczynski, the Unabomber. There are people that root for the bad guy. I don't know whether it stirs up something in them

Starting point is 00:07:45 that they're good, they would never commit a murder for any reason to anybody, but it's fun in some way for them to see, yeah, yeah, you go girl or you go guy, you got that. They see the victim as the bad guy and that seems to be what's happening here brian thompson symbolizes an industry that a lot of people have a problem with you know and i understand that you know i understand that i mean i actually hosted a health show a radio show for a couple of years and people have horrible stories i mean the health health care industry the health insurance industry in this country it it's not great i mean there are a lot of problems and people who are suffering and they're it's just it's a monster of a topic that

Starting point is 00:08:37 you could talk about for days there are so many um issues it. However, murdering somebody, I mean, that is taking it to a whole other level. I mean, Luigi Mangione, if he is convicted of this crime, he is somebody who comes from a privileged background. He had the biggest head start of head starts in life. And if he's convicted, he has thrown it all away. It's gone. He will spend the rest of his life in prison. And for what? I mean, is this going to change the healthcare system

Starting point is 00:09:17 and cure the issues with it, killing a man on the street? Of course not. If I could ask him two questions, the first one would be, did you plan on getting away with this? And the second would be exactly what you're saying. What kind of statement were you trying to make? Did you think this would have a ripple effect throughout the industry? Well, it has had a ripple effect on CEOs. They're just being much more careful. I think, well, we'll be talking about Luigi quite a bit and what motivated him. But Ted Kaczynski had his followers too, and he killed three people and injured almost two dozen.

Starting point is 00:10:08 And I know you were with Ted Kaczynski the day that he was arrested. So briefly tell me about that. The search warrant was for his cabin, that little 8 by 10 shack that he lived in. We lured him out. A couple agents lured him out, grabbed him, he put up a tremendous fight. He was five foot nine, weighed 140 pounds. So it was a hell of a fight he put up, but it wasn't that difficult to subdue him and put handcuffs on him. And then he was brought down to a different cabin where I was waiting with another agent,

Starting point is 00:10:46 my boss, for what we hope would be the interrogation. But he lawyered up. And of course, as soon as he requested a lawyer, that's it, no more discussion about anything to do with the case or him. And he was handcuffed behind his back in this little, what they're called, hunter's cabin. It's maybe a 12 by 12 room with two beds, one on each side and a stove in the middle, no running water, no electricity. And we were using that for our area, our holding area. I was with him in the cabin. Door was open, some people, other agents

Starting point is 00:11:26 going in and out. But I was sitting across a table, a little pine table from him and chatting. I want to turn back now to Luigi Mangione. I think there's something very alluring about, you know, somebody who's fighting the power. And there's something that really appeals to people about that. And in some circles, this is somebody who appears to be fighting the system and fighting back, fighting the power. And he's accused of doing it in the most extreme way and and and murdering somebody taking somebody's life And you know, there's a you said like a Robin Hood aspect of this That but this is I mean, this isn't a TV show. This is real life. We're seeing the video of it. I

Starting point is 00:12:20 Mean this is is that a part of this to the psychology of this, that he is quickly a symbol of fighting the man? Yes. Yes. I think that he did something that a lot of people fantasize about getting even with the bad guy and and in the minds of all all the people that are posting these things on on social media the bad guy is not Luigi the bad guy is Thompson who represented in an evil industry as as we see it premiums can be so high people can't afford the insurance the deductibles can be so high you might as well not have insurance and it's an economic problem for a tremendous amount of Americans. So yes, he, although reasonable people would say what he did was wrong, the concept of getting even in some way with the healthcare industry is very appealing. It's like, yeah, you know? Do you think that the fact that, I mean, he's a good looking kid. I mean,

Starting point is 00:13:46 he's, I mean, he's 26, but he's a good looking kid. I mean, the eyebrows behind the mask, the distinctive eye, I mean, it almost looks like he's wearing eyeliner or something. And then he's fit. Beautiful smile. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful smile. He's, he's a fit guy. So it's almost like there's this aspect of it, too. I mean, how much of it does him being telegenic play into this? Because you see other website, GiveSendGo, has not. I mean, it's crazy to me in some aspects. I understand the anger at the health insurance industry. But how much does his looks play into this, in your opinion? That's an excellent point. I think it plays into it quite a bit. Just imagine for a moment if rather than look the way he does, he was 400 pounds, disheveled and unkempt, not attractive, and he went up and he shot that person that I just described, this imaginary shooter, shoots Brian Thompson in the back and kills him. Would this be happening? I think not to the degree that it is. He is an attractive young man. He's not only that, he's smart and accomplished

Starting point is 00:15:31 academically, athletically, socially, culturally, he had it all going on. And I think that plays in to how society sees him. It's like, yeah, you know what? I mean, this guy had it all and he fought for us. Well, this guy had it all and he ruined his own life, not to mention taking the life of a middleaged man with two children. You know, there was an interesting aspect of this, too, when the investigation, the manhunt, was underway. There were people saying, you know, typically, you know, I remember in the Idaho 4 case, internet sleuths all over the place trying to figure out who killed these four kids, these college kids. That didn't happen in this case. There were internet sleuths who were not picking up this case. They were not looking to solve this

Starting point is 00:16:32 case and figure out where the killer was. And that was mentioned in some circles online. What did you think of that? I know one of them, an Internet sleuth, a very successful one, and he was doing that, a lot regarding the gun, the shoes that he was wearing, all of that. And a lot of sleuths were doing it and giving their information to the police, but not going online about it. So it was happening, but it was subterranean is the word that comes to mind, as opposed to, I mean, a lot of the January 6th internet sleuths, they didn't make their findings public.

Starting point is 00:17:24 And I think part of the reason for that is a lot of the public thought what happened on January 6th was okay yeah the government's bad we have to fight and and the wrong person was elected that kind of thing so it was happening the sleuthing was happening good sleuthing but it was a silent movement as opposed to well that's what we're talking about this what you have seen what I have seen tick-tock and all the other platforms like getting behind this guy. He is our hero. Good for him. So the good stuff's being buried. The good sleuthing is

Starting point is 00:18:15 being buried. Candace, I know you haven't evaluated Luigi Mangione, but obviously with your background, you have to have an opinion about what was going on with Luigi Mangione for him to allegedly go from, you know, who he was to an accused murderer. There are hundreds of mental illnesses. Some of them are minor, some of them are moderate, and some of them are severe and affect the individual in a way that makes their life or other people's lives around them extremely difficult. A lot of these illnesses, if not most of them, emerge in the late teens to early to mid 20s. On rare occasion a severe mental illness will manifest in an individual's later in life, their 40s, I have seen that. But for the most part, when an individual crosses

Starting point is 00:19:15 the bridge from puberty to adulthood and then full adulthood, that's when these, what I would call ticking time bombs, take over. They emerge. Now, when I look at what we know about Luigi Mangione, superstar kid, valedictorian of an exclusive prep school, I wouldn't be surprised to find out he was on the debate team. Debate teams at prep schools are blood sport and the students that are attracted to be on the debate team frequently later in life are leaders in industry, government, medicine, law. That wouldn't surprise me if I found out that.

Starting point is 00:19:58 Then he goes on to a outstanding Ivy League prep school he gets a science degree I think he had something to do with Stanford for a while another outstanding school but what's missing in his bio is okay you've got all this great education where are you working there There is none. We have no information. Oh, he went with General Electric or Silicon Valley tech company. Google hired him. No, we're not hearing that.

Starting point is 00:20:37 Why? I think what happened is a mental illness emerged and basically took over his life it was so sad the manifesto I don't pay as much attention to what he says in the manifesto as how he said it it is disjointed he goes from one subject to another people are focusing on yeah but he's a good guy because he said a bomb would kill a lot of people. So he wasn't going to use a bomb. He didn't want to hurt any innocents. He just wanted one person dead. Oh, isn't he a good guy? Wait a minute. Let's read the whole thing. He jumps from one subject to another. He never, I don't recall him making it very clear in a manifesto exactly

Starting point is 00:21:30 why he was killing Brian Thompson. And this is a bright guy who did a tremendous amount of planning and trying to hide pre, working up to the murder, the murder itself, and then after the murder, the planning to commit the perfect murder, to get away, all that, it fell apart. He dropped his phone in the alley. Are you kidding me? Why didn't he just drop his wallet with his driver's license saying, hey, I'm Luigi Mangione and here's how to find me. That to me and then the subsequent things that followed,

Starting point is 00:22:15 he had the phony ID in his wallet that he used to check into the hospital in Manhattan. He had the weapon. Luigi, what were you thinking? Well, those tremendous mistakes speak to a disorganized mind, which could be caused by a mental illness. Now here's an important point. People may be saying, oh okay so you're saying he's crazy so he should not go to prison for killing someone. No I'm not saying that at all. People that are compelled to commit horrible crimes, murder being one, because of a mental illness they have, maybe the voices in their head are telling them you have to kill that person or the world's going to catch on fire.

Starting point is 00:23:09 So they kill that person and they truly believe this. They need to be removed from society. Anyone who commits murder does, but not in a prison. If a jury finds them that they committed the murder because of diminished capacity of some kind or the highest bar insanity they go to a mental facility and some people are in mental facilities because they committed murder they're in that facility for the rest of their life they have to be removed from society to keep society safe from them. McDonald's where he was taken into custody because an employee called 911. Apparently they were getting tons of bad reviews online.

Starting point is 00:24:12 So it's almost like, you know, up is down and down is up. Yes, it will die down for a while. And then as things move on in the judicial system, there'll be flare-ups once again. When he if, when he goes to trial, there'll be protests out front. It's just, we should expect that it's going to happen. Is it a comment on our society? Well, yes, but it's also a comment on the healthcare industry. The people I believe that are saying that we're talking about, you know, free Luigi

Starting point is 00:24:53 and all this stuff, they would never do what he did, but they like the fact that he did it. Well, it's it will be interesting to watch it play out. The saddest part of this, if he is indeed convicted, and it appears to be a mountain of evidence that they are assembling against him at this point, and the manifesto that they found, what a life, what a waste of potential. It's so sad to me. Candice DeLong, thank you so much for joining me. Oh, you're welcome. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix. I'm Anjanette Levy. Thanks so much for being with me.

Starting point is 00:25:34 I'll see you back here next time.

Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Obsession Over Luigi Mangione Booms Across Social Media

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