Crime Fix with Angenette Levy - Police Chief Who Led Bryan Kohberger Case Has Message For Killer

Episode Date: July 25, 2025

James Fry was the chief of the Moscow Police Department in November 2022 when four University of Idaho students were murdered in a home near campus. Fry had investigated homicides before but ...nothing like this. He immediately knew his department needed help as the case thrust the small town into the international spotlight. The competence of the department was questioned. Then, more than six weeks later, Bryan Kohberger was arrested in Pennsylvania. Law&Crime's Angenette Levy talks with Fry about the case and Kohberger's sentencing and what he would say to him in this episode of Crime Fix — a daily show covering the biggest stories in crime.PLEASE SUPPORT THE SHOW:If your child, under 21, has been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes or fatty liver disease, visit https://forthepeople.com/food to start a claim now!Host:Angenette Levy  https://twitter.com/Angenette5Guest:Chief James FryProducer:Jordan ChaconCRIME FIX PRODUCTION:Head of Social Media, YouTube - Bobby SzokeSocial Media Management - Vanessa BeinVideo Editing - Daniel CamachoGuest Booking - Alyssa Fisher & Diane KayeSTAY UP-TO-DATE WITH THE LAW&CRIME NETWORK:Watch Law&Crime Network on YouTubeTV: https://bit.ly/3td2e3yWhere To Watch Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3akxLK5Sign Up For Law&Crime's Daily Newsletter: https://bit.ly/LawandCrimeNewsletterRead Fascinating Articles From Law&Crime Network: https://bit.ly/3td2IqoLAW&CRIME NETWORK SOCIAL MEDIA:Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lawandcrime/Twitter: https://twitter.com/LawCrimeNetworkFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/lawandcrimeTwitch: https://www.twitch.tv/lawandcrimenetworkTikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@lawandcrimeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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Starting point is 00:00:00 Wondery Plus subscribers can binge all episodes of this law and crimes series ad free right now. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts or Spotify. We just had to keep working at it until we figured everything out. Chief James Fry led the Moscow Police Department when four University of Idaho students were murdered. I talked to Fry about the case, his message to Brian Koberger and new information we're learning about the investigation. I'm Anj Coburger, and new information we're learning about the
Starting point is 00:00:25 investigation. I'm Ann Jeanette Levy and this is Crime Fix. Before I get into my discussion with Chief Fry, I want to tell you about something. Law and crime is looking to create something new for our viewers, something that you'll love and enjoy. We want to make sure that what we create is based on your opinion and your voice. So we've created a short survey to get your feedback and we'll be selecting 10 people at random who took the survey to get a free Law and Crime t-shirt. So if you want your voice to be heard, please check out the survey and let us know your thoughts. The link is in the description and pinned in the comments. Now back to my chat with Chief Frye. I just got back from Boise, Idaho, where Brian Coburger is now serving four consecutive life
Starting point is 00:01:14 sentences for the murders of Maddie Mogan, Kaylee Goncalves, Xana Curnodle, and Ethan Chapin. Coburger was booked into the Idaho Maximum Security Institution in Kuna right after the sentencing. That sentencing hearing was incredibly emotional with family members of Maddie, Kaylee, and Zanna pouring out their hearts, telling Judge Hipler about their loss and the beautiful children and siblings that were stolen from them by Brian Coburger. Coburger, as you saw, just sat there. I could see Brian Coburger very clearly. Now, while I was in Boise, I met up with James Fry. He was the chief of the Moscow Police Department when Maddie, Kaylee, Xana, and Ethan were murdered. We talked for a little bit about getting the call that day
Starting point is 00:01:55 about the murders, having a horrific case like this thrown into his lap, how it tore a wound into the soul of his beautiful little college town, and more. I'm also going to go through some of the evidence and other new information that we're learning from the investigative reports Moscow police have released. There are hundreds of documents and they reveal new details about the investigation and the things that Brian Koberger did after the murders. But first, a little bit about Chief Fry in my talk with him.
Starting point is 00:02:21 He's been a police officer for nearly 30 years. On November 13th, 2022, he got a call from one of his officers in Moscow that changed everything. There was a homicide at 1122 King Road. Four University of Idaho college students were dead. The crime scene was horrific. There was a lot of blood. Two women were in a third floor bedroom
Starting point is 00:02:41 and they were in a bed together. They were Kaylee Goncalves and Maddie Moggan. Kaylee's face was so badly damaged she was unrecognizable and Maddie Moguen had also been stabbed. On the second floor, Zana Curnodle was laying on her back on the floor of her bedroom and she'd been stabbed 50 times and had many, many defensive wounds to her hands and arms. Zana fought for her life trying to save herself and there was also a lot of blood there. In Zana fought for her life trying to save herself. And there was also a lot of blood there. In Zana's bed was her boyfriend, Ethan Chapin. He'd also been stabbed, slashed in an artery, and there was a lot of blood in that bed.
Starting point is 00:03:11 Ethan had been killed in his sleep. Less than 24 hours earlier, the four had posed for this beautiful photo with two roommates who had survived, Dylan Mortenson and Bethany Funk. Dylan and Bethany are now forever scarred by what happened in the house on King Road, and Dylan actually saw the killer
Starting point is 00:03:28 walking through the house that morning. This is a law and crime legal alert. Did you know that children are being diagnosed with serious conditions like type two diabetes and non-alcoholic fatty liver disease? And research is potentially linking ultra processed foods to these outcomes. Morgan and Morgan is stepping in to fight to hold food companies accountable.
Starting point is 00:03:48 With decades of experience fighting large corporations, they are ready to stand up for families that deserve justice. So if your child under the age of 21 has been diagnosed with type 2 diabetes or fatty liver disease, visit www.forthepeople.com slash food or scan the QR code on your screen to learn more. I'm going to get to some of the new information that we're learning from the investigative reports. But first, I want to get to Chief Fry.
Starting point is 00:04:17 I asked him about getting the call about the homicides on King Road. I think it's interesting because Moscow is an interesting town. We've had some bigger incidences, you know, 2007 we had an officer shot and killed and so we've had some stuff but nothing like this but we've had we've had to have our community heal before from tragic events that have taken place and and Moscow is a very strong strong community but it still tears tears a wound that takes a long time to heal it, if it ever does heal.
Starting point is 00:04:49 So being the chief during that time, I've been there my whole career, I went to the university, so I had a lot of pride in the community and the university. But we don't ever want anything like this to happen in our community. So I think it does add added stress. We're a small, small town. We're not in New York. We're not in Chicago. Not that that makes it any less there, but I think it's sometimes more shocking when it happens in a small rural town. Chief Fry knew right away that his small police department needed help. This was not
Starting point is 00:05:25 something that they could handle alone. Idaho State Police were called to process the scene and Fry contacted the FBI to assist with the investigation. Fry had been a detective earlier in his career, but he hadn't worked anything like this. But he knew they had some decent clues. Number one, the K-Bar knife sheaf left next to Maddie Mogin's body, and video of a white car circling the neighborhood and speeding away at 4.20 AM. I'd worked several homicides. So I knew what went into them. I knew what it took.
Starting point is 00:05:55 And I knew that we had a good foundation and a good start. So we just had to keep working at it until we figured everything out. Frye was actually out of town when he got the call about the murders, but rushed back to Moscow to oversee the investigation. Number one, I didn't go into the house. And the reason is every time you go into a crime scene, you could contaminate it. And as the chief, that wasn't my role at that time. But I've seen pictures of, took place there. It was horrific. It is horrific.
Starting point is 00:06:27 It's devastating to communities, devastating to states, devastating to a nation, honestly, and a world. I mean, this case expanded many, many miles away from Moscow, Idaho that it affected. The case took on a life of its own and word of the mystery in Moscow spread like wildfire across social media.
Starting point is 00:06:49 News media from around the world descended on this small college town of Moscow, Idaho, population 25,435. Days and weeks were passing and the killer was on the loose. College students fled the town, finishing classes remotely, but Chief Fry knew they had the DNA on the knife sheath and the the town, finishing classes remotely. But Chief Fry knew they had the DNA on the knife sheath and the FBI was using genetic genealogy to identify the suspect. But he kept that a secret. But you know, that part was stressful, just the
Starting point is 00:07:17 just the amount of stuff we had coming in at times, you know, information and stuff we were trying to do. But but also, you know, the social media, it was stressful and the national media was stressful because you want to be able to tell the story, but you also have to protect that. And there was a lot of pressure coming from that too. But, you know, we've always done it that way. We've always held as tight as we could to information
Starting point is 00:07:41 so that we could make a solid case. And I think this is another example of that. Chief Fry took a lot of heat for how he handled the media, eventually allowing Idaho State Police to assist with that task. Chief Fry didn't hold a press conference until November 16th. That was three days after the murders. And he was heavily criticized for creating a vacuum
Starting point is 00:08:00 that allowed rumors to spread. It's something that Fry says he's learned from. Number one, I would have came out with a press conference way earlier. That was a failure of mine. We were busy. We were doing a lot of stuff, but I probably really should have came out probably within four to six hours and at least give a brief statement as to what was kind of going on. But we wouldn't have given a lot of information there, but maybe it would have set the community of the ease a little bit more, but we still didn't know who did it. So is there really any ease at that point for that?
Starting point is 00:08:29 But I definitely would have done that differently. When I was in Moscow in December of 2022, it was really frustrating because it appeared that there was little information coming out and it felt like police didn't have any leads. I asked Chief Frye whether he was ever concerned that they may never solve this case. There's always a little bit, right?
Starting point is 00:08:50 But I am a very positive person. I always have been. And I was going to just keep the faith that we were going to keep working, and it wasn't going to go cold. Cases go cold because you just stop working them. And we weren't going to stop working it. On December 19, 2022, more than a month after the murders, the FBI contacted Moscow police.
Starting point is 00:09:08 They'd finished their genetic genealogy work on the DNA found on the knife sheath. The FBI told the police to look at a man named Brian Koberger. Last week, I interviewed Washington State University Police Chief Gary Jenkins, who had been the chief at the Pullman Police Department. Jenkins told me about being contacted by Chief Fry, who wanted him to come by for a briefing the next day. Jenkins said the hair on the back of his neck stood up. When he realized the suspect, Brian Koberger, was someone he had interviewed for an internship position at the Pullman Police Department in the spring of 2022. I asked Chief Fry about learning about that and the fact that Brian Koberger was studying criminal justice
Starting point is 00:09:46 and criminology. You know, when we found out he was a criminal justice major, and all that, it kind of stings us a little bit, you know, that that's that's our profession. That's what we do. That's but, you know, when, when he wanted to do that, I, you know, I don't know what his motives were for that. No one will ever know his motives for why he wanted to be an intern, why, you know, when, when he wanted to do that, you know, I don't know what his motives were for that. No one will ever know his motives for why he wanted to be an intern, why, you know, all that stuff. But it is interesting that he was studying
Starting point is 00:10:13 us in a sense. So all of the pieces started to come together after that. And on December 29 2022, police prepared to move in on Coburger at his parents home in Pennsylvania. The element of surprise would be key. So was Chief Fry worried about word of an arrest leaking out? I was and you're always worried about stuff like that,
Starting point is 00:10:34 and now you're in another state. You're in a different jurisdiction, but I tell you, I'm very proud of our agency and the individuals that worked at least on our side because it never did leak out. Brian Coburger was booked into a jail in Pennsylvania and then flown to Moscow and booked into the Laetaw County jail.
Starting point is 00:10:52 Coburger spent more than a year in the jail, one inmate recounting how Coburger would stay up all night and nap during the day. He spent hours on video calls with his mother. The inmate described Coburger as the smartest person he'd met while incarcerated, but he had odd habits. He washed his hands incessantly and showered for almost an hour each day. And one time, he said Coburger became angry when the inmate said, you suck while watching sports.
Starting point is 00:11:15 Coburger aggressively, he said, stuck his face through the bars and asked if the inmate was talking about him or his mom. But Coburger never said anything, the inmate said, about the murders. Eventually, Coburger was moved to Ada County in Boise after winning a change of venue motion. And then just weeks before jury selection was set to begin, Coburger asked to change his plea. Did Chief Fry think that that was surprising? Well, I don't know that I have insight,
Starting point is 00:11:39 but I think that's a common thing. You know, they're gonna push it out as far as they can to see if anything will stick. And that's why we have to, when we were so quiet at the beginning and we held stuff, that's part why you do that. You hold stuff so that you get everything lined up by the time that they're ready to go to trial.
Starting point is 00:12:01 And I don't know what his full reasoning on that is, but I think he wanted to have the last shot that he could give. And after everything narrowed out on him, I think he was like, okay, you know, this is going to really happen. And I don't want the death penalty. Chief Fry was in the courtroom as Brian Coburger was sentenced to those four consecutive life sentences. But we don't know, and what we may never know is why. I share the desire expressed by others to understand the why, but upon reflection, it seems to me, and this is just my own opinion, that by continuing to focus on why, we continue to give Mr. Koberger relevance. We give him agency and we give him power. The need to know what is inherently not understandable makes us
Starting point is 00:12:58 dependent upon the defendant to provide us with a reason, and that gives him the spotlight, the attention, and the power he appears to crave. The more we try to extract a reason, the more power and control we give to him. In my view, the time has now come to end Mr. Kohlberger's 15 minutes of fame. It's time that he be consigned to the ignominy and isolation of perpetual incarceration. I know there has been concern about him collaborating on books or movies or other media projects and I truly hope that someone does not stoop to affording him this spotlight that he desires
Starting point is 00:13:38 in the name of cliques, royalties, or profits. While criminal behaviorists should study him away from the spotlight in an attempt to prevent other would-be killers from acting on their worst impulses, there should be no need for that to spill over into the public eye. The great Idaho jurist, Edward Lodge, was known for trying to find something positive about every person he ever sentenced And with over a half a century as a trial judge, that was a lot of people This was often challenging and I recall in one case He said that the best he could come up with was the defendant had good penmanship Truth be told I'm unable to come up with anything redeeming about Mr.
Starting point is 00:14:27 Koberger because his grotesque acts of evil have buried and hidden anything that might have been good or intrinsically human about him. His actions have made him the worst of the worst. Even in pleading guilty, he is giving nothing hinting of remorse or redemption, nothing suggesting even a recognition or understanding, let alone regret for the pain that he has caused. And therefore, I will not attempt to speak about him further, other than to simply sentence him, so that he is forever removed from civilized society. I think there's a lot of closure today, a lot of closure for community, university, and families. And I understand there's still some families
Starting point is 00:15:11 that are upset, but it's still a closure. And just to know that Brian Koberger will never harm anybody else again. I asked Chief Frye what he would say to Brian Koberger if he had the chance. I guess I would say shame on you for taking away four lives, destroying families, destroying communities, destroying a lot of things and for why we're not sure. But you know what really comes down to I think the judge and Bill Thompson were correct is you know we don comes down to it, I think the judge and Bill Thompson were correct is
Starting point is 00:15:47 You know We don't need to give him that time of fame We need to give our victims and our families time to heal and give them the support that they need and I always say This and it's true, you know, our patrol officers did a great job that day They locked down the scene and then we we did it, you know, everybody was after so we didn't do it right. But we brought in the state police brought in Bill Thompson brought in the FBI. We did it right. And I am very proud to have been a part of that unfortunate situation. Not one fight, not one argument for seven weeks. We were on a
Starting point is 00:16:21 mission and we had goals and we knew what we wanted to accomplish and we did. Bringing in the FBI and Idaho State Police was really key to solving this case. Without either agency's assistance, Moscow police would have had a very difficult time identifying Coburger on their own. The Idaho State Police crime lab tested the knife sheath, identifying the single source male DNA, and then contacted Authram labs to start working on the genetic genealogy to ID the suspect. Then the FBI took over that process,
Starting point is 00:16:49 ultimately identifying Brian Koberger as a suspect. FBI experts also identified the white car leaving the scene as a white Hyundai Elantra, despite not having crystal clear images of the car. And they used cell phone technology to analyze Koberger's cell phone pings, which placed him within a football field of the King Road house on 23 occasions late at night
Starting point is 00:17:08 in the months leading up to the murders. I asked Chief Fry whether he thinks they would have ever been able to make an arrest if they hadn't had that DNA on the snap of the knife sheath and then used genetic genealogy to identify Brian Coburger as the suspect. We did have other things. We had the vehicle, we had the video and stuff.
Starting point is 00:17:28 As Detective Payne talked about today, I think we would have identified that eventually, but it would have taken probably longer. And every crime scene, there's something left and it's our job to go find it. And they did. And the investigators did a great job. Even after Koberger's arrest,
Starting point is 00:17:46 the FBI did some more investigation, even testing soil samples from a shovel found in Koberger's car. Did he use that to bury the K-bar knife and clothes he wore that night? An FBI report summary stated, "'The soil on the shovel is consistent with soil found in the Moscow area
Starting point is 00:18:04 based off of the experts' analysis. The report also stated the soil was likely not from anywhere east of Moscow. This finding also excluded Pennsylvania as a likely source for the soil. The report stated the soil from the shovel displayed characteristics of soil carried to the area via a water source, though this could have been recent or any point in the area's geologic history. During conversation with the analyst, he stated the exact area the sample came from would likely not be attainable due to the prominence of the mineral compounds from the sample that are found throughout the Moscow area. So that is a question that remains, where is the knife and the clothes
Starting point is 00:18:40 Brian Koberger wore to carry out the murders? Only he knows the answer and as part of the plea agreement, the prosecutor didn't feel it necessary to make it a condition that he disclosed that information. And we still don't know why Brian Coburger did this. But you know, what really comes down to it, I think the judge and Bill Thompson were correct is, you know, we don't need to give him that time of fame. We need to give our victims and our families time to heal
Starting point is 00:19:09 and give them the support that they need. And I always say this, and it's true, you know, our patrol officers did a great job that day. They locked down the scene and then we did it. You know, everybody was after, so we didn't do it right. But we brought in the state police, brought in Bill Thompson, brought in the FBI. We did it right.
Starting point is 00:19:27 And I am very proud to have been a part of that unfortunate situation. I asked Bill Thompson at a press conference why he didn't make it a condition of Coburger's plea that he revealed details of the crime and the location of the murder weapon. Judge Hipler addressed that today very well. Of course, Judge Hippler addresses everything very well, we've found.
Starting point is 00:19:54 The law does not give the court or us the power to require specific factual allocution. And just let me finish. And we recognize that. We recognize that we could have said, well, in order for us to move forward, we want a factual allocution. But I have to be perfectly candid. I don't believe that there is anything that would come out of his mouth that would be the truth.
Starting point is 00:20:18 I don't believe that there's anything that would come out of his mouth that would be anything other than self-serving. And I don't believe there's anything that would come out of his mouth, it would be anything other than self-serving. And I don't believe there's anything that would come out of his mouth that would not further victimize the families. And so that just simply wasn't a factor. We made our decision based on our assessment of law and the facts.
Starting point is 00:20:38 We made our decision based on being able to obtain accountability and certainty, not just for the victims families but for the communities for the state and that's where our obligations go. In the end and the old Harry Truman thing the buck stops on my desk well that's what I got when I was elected prosecutor 33 years ago. I never dreamed it would involve something like this but we don't sure our responsibilities just because it got big and nasty.
Starting point is 00:21:08 The new records also show that five days after the murders, Brian Koberger created a TikTok account and he did that through a VPN. That means that law enforcement would have a very difficult time seeing what Brian Koberger was looking at since he did it through a virtual private network. And that's it for this episode of Crime Fix.
Starting point is 00:21:27 I'm Anjana Levy. Thanks so much for being with me. I'll see you back here next time.

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