Crime Junkie - CAPTURED: Michael Townson

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

When a young mother is found brutally beaten to death in 2007, investigators are able to quickly apprehend her killer. But as the years go by, he decides to open up and reveal he has a darker past than anyone could’ve ever imagined.Memphis PD is still trying to identify the other woman Michael says he murdered around December of 1993, so if you have any information about a Black woman who may have had green eyes who went missing from downtown Memphis, call the MPD’s homicide bureau at 901-636-3300.And if you have any information on the whereabouts of Linda Little’s body, please contact the Daytona Beach Police Department and submit an anonymous tip by texting 274637. Did you know you can listen to this episode ad-free? Join the Fan Club! Visit https://crimejunkieapp.com/library/ to view the current membership options and policies.Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit: https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/captured-michael-townson/

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And the story I have for you today is about the hunt for a killer who murdered a young mother in cold blood. A man who investigators learn has a darker past than they could have ever imagined. This is the story of how they captured Michael Townsend. William Stoffer is going about his work day in Titusville, Florida when his phone starts ringing. He's not expecting a call, but he answers anyway, and he's surprised to hear it's his girlfriend's daughters on the other end. Now, it's a little before 3 p.m. on Tuesday, January 16, 2007, so the kids should just be getting off the bus

where their mom, Sherry Carmen, normally waits for them. But the kids start explaining that Sherry isn't there to meet them at the bus stop and walk them home like she always is. They say that they decided to just walk home by themselves assuming that she'd be there, but she wasn't even at the house. Her car is missing too, and there's not like a note or anything saying when she'll be back. I mean, that would immediately put me on high alert if she's always there and hasn't called. Yeah, I mean, it definitely sounds like it would be cause for concern. But William actually isn't worried because he had just spoken to Sherry on the phone like a couple of hours ago. I mean, it was some time before lunch.

And when he talked to her, there was nothing about their conversation that made him worried. Jessica Gertler reported for WREG that Sherry told him she'd slept in was getting a late start to her errands for the day, so William probably figures she's still out somewhere and just couldn't make it back in time to meet the kids. He thinks she'll probably be home soon, but he doesn't want the kids to just be totally unsupervised while they wait for her. I mean, they're seven and six and not really ages where he feels comfortable leaving them alone. So he tells them, why don't you go wait at a neighbor's and I'm going to get someone to come pick you up. So William starts making calls and it only takes him a few minutes to get a hold of Sherry's grandfather who agrees to take the kids to his house. So with all that taken care of, William gets back to work and plows through the last few hours of the day.

Now, he doesn't hear anything else from the kids or grandpa. So when he gets home at around 6pm, he's expecting everything to be normal. He's going to spend some time with Sherry, then just like crash. But as soon as he pulls into the driveway, he realizes that's not going to happen because her blue sedan is nowhere in sight. He parks his car and walks into an eerily empty house. And when he calls her name, he gets no response. As he makes his way through the home, he finds a note and it's from Sherry's grandpa, basically just saying that the kids are with him and telling Sherry to call him when she gets home. So she hasn't been home to see it.

That's what William's thinking. So he starts trying to call her as well as their friends and family to see if maybe she's with someone else. But all of his calls to her go unanswered and friends and family all say the same thing. No one has seen her. So William's frantic at this point and thinks maybe Sherry was in some kind of accident or something. I mean, it's the only explanation he can think of for why she's missing. He calls local hospitals, even a local jail too, just in case, but no luck at any of those places. I mean, he even goes so far as to drive around town looking for Sherry, but it starts getting pretty late and he's not finding her anywhere.

So he reaches out to one of his good friends and asks to crash at his place. Wouldn't he want to be at home in case Sherry turns up? Yeah, this part I didn't really understand. I think it's kind of strange. I don't know that I've ever seen anyone raise any questions about it as I was like looking into this story. But I kind of get it. Maybe he just can't sleep in the house while he's so worried about her or he feels like he needs the support of a friend. I mean, the girls are taking care of.

I don't know. Okay, but I guess I'd ask the friend to come to me. I mean, plus, if you're that shook up about things, maybe call the police next. Well, so according to a report on the case by the Brevard County Sheriff's Office at one point during his search, William does come across a deputy and asks if he's seen a vehicle matching Sherry's car. But from what I understand, the deputy just says no, tells him to contact the station if he needs help or to file a report. But to your point, from what I can tell, he never does actually file that report. I mean, I guess maybe he's just thinking like it had to have been an accident, like foul play hasn't even crossed his mind.

Probably. Now the next morning, January 17th, he's back to his search and it's about 10 30 a.m. when he heads back over to the house. This time, though, he's searching more thoroughly going through each room for signs of Sherry. And it's in the living room that he notices something he didn't see before. On the floor under a love seat is a cell phone. Now, the source material I have aren't consistent on who the phone belongs to. Like one article says it's Sherry's, but nothing else I've read refers to it as her phone. Either way, though, that's concerning.

Either it's just a stranger's phone in your house or if it is her phone, how did he not hear ring in the house unless it was turned off? And then why was it turned off? Do we know anything about this? No, so that's the thing is I don't know what the deal is here. Like could have been turned off, could have been dead, who knows. Again, I have no clue who it even really belongs to, which is one of those weird details I can't explain. But I don't really want to get too hung up on the phone because what's really important isn't the phone itself. It's what William finds on it.

You see, when he picks it up, he notices this sticky red substance on its surface and it takes him a moment. But eventually he realizes that the phone is stained with blood and as he starts frantically tearing through the rest of the house, he notices this big pile of clothes at the foot of the bed and lying on top is a bloodstained sheet. So he pulls the sheet off to get a closer look, uncovering a bloody cushion. And how the hell did he not see any of this yesterday? I have no freaking clue. The only explanation he can come up with, because of course this is the question everyone asks, is he's basically like, he just didn't notice? And maybe, I mean, again, I have no idea how big this room is. I don't know how much stuff is in it.

And to be fair, in the first day, he's not looking for those items. He was looking for Sherry. He was driving around. But I for one would think that you would notice, I don't know, a bloody sheet in your bedroom. Especially if you're looking for a missing person, someone you can't find clues on where someone could have gone. I know. I got kind of hung up on it too until I started thinking more. And really, when you break it down, the problem is William wasn't the only one in that house, right? Like the kids were there at one point, grandpa's over there. They didn't see anything either. Now, granted, they're probably not going through the bedrooms, but you think someone would have, I don't know, looked around for her.

Or again, they didn't find the phone right there in the living room. I don't know. And listen, as weird as that is, the wild part about this is that there's more. By now, William's gone through each room, searching meticulously for anything that he might have missed. And in the bedroom that he shares with Sherry, he finds her purse, her ID, and some medication on the bed. Please tell me he calls the police now. Because if he wasn't convinced of foul play before, I mean, hello? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So this is the point where he finally does call 911. And deputies from the Brevard County Sheriff's Office show up that morning. William fills them in on everything that's happened since yesterday, as well as some background on the both of them.

He explains that he and 29-year-old Sherry have been together for three years. And a year ago, they moved in together along with her three kids. And things have been going well. They have a full house and busy schedules, but their relationship is solid. So there's no reason for her to just up and leave. And now, with all of this blood in the living room, on the sheet, whatever, he is fearing the worst. When the responding officers take a look inside, they're immediately concerned that they're dealing with a homicide. I mean, just based on the sheer amount of blood on the sheet and the pillow. They get William's permission to do a full search of the house, and they find a lot of the same stuff.

But they also find a hammer and some sort of pipe, both with blood stains as well. But room by room, they don't find anything else that looks suspicious. The only thing that stands out is the laundry room. And it stands out because they can't get in, like the door is locked. Now, William says there's a key, but he isn't sure where the key is. So he just goes ahead and like kicks the door down. Like he wants to find out whatever is happening behind that door. However, according to that same report from the sheriff's office, once the door is kicked down,

the only thing that they see is just this big pile of clothes stacked on the floor, but no sherry. There also doesn't seem to be any signs of forced entry on any of the home's exterior doors or windows, which is worth noting. And since William had already checked the hospitals and the local jail, deputies are kind of left scratching their heads trying to figure out what could have happened. I'm sorry, bloody phone, bloody sheets, missing woman. Something very bad like foul play is literally the only thing that makes sense here. Yeah. And I think they're on the same page. I think they're just like, where is she?

And by this point, a couple of members of law enforcement have escorted William to the local precinct for further questioning, hoping to find out if there's anything else he can think of that might help them figure out where she is. Again, who would maybe want to come do this to her? Why she would only, whatever. And it's in that questioning that he's like, oh yeah, there is this other matter. Sherry isn't the only person that lives at the home that's unaccounted for. So there are two missing people? And he just conveniently left this part out? I mean, that seems pretty important to mention right off the bat. Yeah. So he says this other person is a man named Michael Townsend, and he had been living there for about a week.

Apparently he was a childhood friend of Sherry's who had a long history of arrests for robberies and burglaries in like the late 80s and throughout the 90s. In fact, he had just finished a 12 year sentence for a string of robberies in Orlando. Lauren Sellers reported for the Orlando Sentinel that he was released on parole about four months before this. He didn't have any income. He didn't have a place to stay. So he reached out to Sherry and she opened their home to him like no questions asked. And to me, it's odd that William didn't mention this guy sooner. Like again, there's someone else living in your home. He's not around. Sherry's not around. Like, I don't know why it didn't come up. But based on everything I've gathered, I think he was just so worried about Sherry that he kind of forgot about Michael. Especially because William tells investigators that recently there kind of been this revolving door of people crashing at their house.

Like a friend of William stayed there for a couple of weeks until mid January. And then one of Michael's friends had moved in at the same time that Michael did too. But the only one that was still living there at this time was Michael. Because William's friend had moved out and Michael's friend had actually been kicked out because he was caught stealing some speakers. But now Michael's nowhere to be found. So investigators put out an alert to other law enforcement in the area to keep an eye out for him, Sherry and Sherry's car. Meanwhile, a crime scene team starts processing the house. They meticulously go through room by room. They don't find anything significant.

That is, until they get to that laundry room. They start picking through that pile of clothes that was on the floor. When suddenly they see something that looks like human skin peeking out amongst the fabric. As gently as possible, they start peeling back the layers of clothing until finally they completely uncover a woman's body. Ashley, what is with this house? Sherry was there the whole time and everyone just missed her? I mean, well, they're pretty sure it's Sherry, but they can't make a positive ID just by looking at her face because she has been so severely beaten that she is unrecognizable. I mean, what are the odds that someone else, right?

Like it's probably her, but they can't tell by her face. So they look around her body for other identifiable marks that, you know, maybe could prove that it's her. And that's when they spot this small tattoo of a cross on her ankle. So they snap a picture of it, they go show her family, and sure enough, based on that tattoo, they confirm that it is Sherry who is under that pile of clothing. The fact that multiple investigators and her boyfriend looked at this pile of clothes and had no idea she was dead underneath it is just awful. It's wild. And I think so many people are surprised by this. But I don't know, like, I think for, you got to keep in mind, like this house, there's three adults, there's three kids, and she was well concealed.

Again, people wanted to tear apart that she wasn't found sooner. But by just taking a cursory glance, again, I don't know how much laundry is piled up in this room. That might be par for the course for them. And a pile of clothes in a laundry room isn't necessarily out of the ordinary. It's so normal. I hate folding my clothes. So the one thing that I did walk away from this, though, is I walked away being like, I don't feel like I understand decomp like I thought I did. Because how many times have we heard detectives talk about like, you know, I smelled the smell the second I knew, or this smells like permeating.

And granted, it's only been like a day or so. But I am kind of surprised that nobody smelled anything. Right? Yeah, that's, I hadn't even considered that. But again, I don't know if her being completely covered also dampened the smell. Again, we're not talking weeks or months or anything. It's just a day. But it was something that kind of stood out to me.

Anyway, now that Sherry's been found and they are pretty sure that she was murdered, investigator suspicions land squarely on Michael, who they still can't find. And Sherry's car is still missing. So they're thinking missing car, missing man seems like a good place to start. And they pour all of their efforts into trying to track this guy down. But they just can't. I mean, of course they can't, because if he does have her car, which he likely does, he has this, what, 24-hour head start.

He's probably long gone by now. Yeah, which is why investigators expand their search and send Sherry's vehicle info to law enforcement agencies across the region. Now, it takes a bit, but at 5.30 in the morning on Thursday, investigators are told to contact the Orlando Police Department, which is like an hour away. And when they do, they're told that Sherry's car has been found. But it wasn't Michael who was driving. It was this couple.

According to the police report, one of them tells police a friend introduced him to some guy who was letting them borrow his car in exchange for drugs. And I guess they like hung out with this guy for a bit and he just eventually let the couple use his car for like another trade. Now, police are pretty sure that this guy that the couple is referring to is Michael. So they ask, do you know where we can find this guy? And get this, the couple's like, well, yeah, he's just at our house. Why?

Oh, who are these people? Truly a completely random couple. What? Basically, they say after this whole exchange, Michael asked them if he could pay them to crash at their place. I guess with the money that he got from lending them his car, I don't know, and they agreed. So investigators head out to find Michael and when they do, they find him hanging out like nothing has happened.

So they ask him a few questions and he agrees to go back to Brevard County with investigators if they'll get him some food. What? Naturally, when you find out you're square in police's sights for an investigation involving your friend, you're like, hey, sure, can we grab a bite to eat before we talk? Yeah. That is unsettling. Eerie.

Yeah. But they did agree to his request and they take him through a fast food drive through. And by the time they pull into the parking lot of the precinct, Michael is saying he's innocent. He actually breaks down in tears and says that he wasn't the one who killed Cherry. But he says he did witness her murder. Now, when they go in and actually sit down for an interview, Michael elaborates. He says that it was around 1pm on the 16th and he had come back to the home to find a man standing over Cherry with a fence post pipe in his hand.

But he says that this man wasn't a stranger. It was that friend of Williams who also stayed at the house for a few weeks, the one who had moved out mid-January. But there was actually more to that story. I guess that guy was actually kicked out because he'd accused Cherry of cheating on William with Michael, though they both denied the claims and then this guy was like eventually kicked out. So Michael tells investigators that like, I guess this guy was supposed to come by and

pick up his stuff sometime that week. But he must have come that afternoon and then he thinks just gotten revenge on Cherry instead. But why did Michael flee with her car? Well, that police report from Brevard County states that when Michael saw what was happening, he says that he got scared and ran before the man could take his anger out on him next. So he says he hopped in Cherry's car and just took off. And he was so shaken up that he went out searching for drugs to calm his nerves. And eventually he met that couple and traded with them for Cherry's car.

And listen, like, it's a flimsy story, but in order to cross their teas and dot their eyes, the investigators at least have to look into this other guy. Somehow they're able to track him down that same day in Coco, but he has an alibi. He was at a court ordered rehab appointment the entire afternoon of the 16th. And just like that, we are back to Michael. Yeah, investigators go back to him. They're like, OK, so we looked at that guy. Dude has an alibi.

You want to tell us what really happened? And without even acknowledging the fact that he straight up lied the first time, Michael begins to tell a different story. He tells them now that he was at Cherry's house with her at around 1 p.m. on the 16th, just hanging out on the couch while she talked on the phone with a friend. And when she got off the phone, she then informed Michael that she had given him HIV. So they were really sleeping together then? I don't actually know. Like, again, I can't confirm whether that part was true.

And I, again, it could also be a lie because before I go any further, I want to clarify that some of my source materials claim that Cherry's autopsy report later revealed she wasn't HIV positive. So the only thing that we have to back this up is like Michael himself. And I'm not putting much stock in what he says because we've already known that he's like a proven liar, right? Right. But anyways, Michael says that even though this is a serious conversation, Cherry had just like laughed it off and her casualness made him quote snap. So in retaliation to the news, he said that he beat Cherry with a fence post pipe for what felt like an hour.

And then he wrapped part of her body in a blanket before he says he blacked out. And the next thing he knew, he was driving her car just outside of Orlando covered in blood. He says he used a water bottle to clean off his face and then he went to like go score some drugs. So seems like case closed, right? Yeah. He confessed they're ready to charge him with her murder. But before they can end their interview, he changes his story. This time he blamed Sherry's murder on the other man that had been living at the house,

but the one that was thrown out for stealing. Now, obviously, nobody's believing this guy. And later that same day, Michael is charged with first degree murder. But as his case makes its way through the legal system, his story on why he killed Sherry changes a few times, including one time where he accuses her of possessing and selling child sexual abuse material of her own children, by the way, and then trafficking them as well. But to be very, very clear, police never find any evidence of this.

And again, this dude is a known liar. On March 13th, 2008, Michael pleads guilty as part of a deal to avoid the death penalty. And he is sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole. And with that, it seems like this case is closed. Michael is never getting out and Sherry's family can at least rest easy knowing that the monster who took her from them can't hurt anyone else. But there's still more to this story. Because over a decade later, Michael asks to meet with investigative reporters

at the Sumter Correctional Institution where he's serving his life sentence. He says that he has information about some other crimes. So they go meet with him. But nothing could have ever prepared them for what Michael says next. He says Sherry wasn't his first and only victim. Michael says that he'd committed several murders in the Mid-South throughout the late 80s and early 90s. And it all began back in 1988.

His struggle with substance abuse was at its peak when he ran into a woman who was also looking to do drugs. According to more reporting by Jessica Gertler for WREG, they purchased drugs and then started fooling around near a park in Orlando when something in him, quote unquote, just snapped. And then he says he blacked out. The next thing he remembered was sitting next to the woman's dead body apparently having beat her to death.

I see a pattern here. Yeah, I mean literally almost word for word. And I know the term snapped is kind of a trope in true crime. But Michael actually tries to explain this switch that flips inside of him. He doesn't know exactly what triggers it, but says that he thinks it has something to do with the abuse he experienced as a child. He tells investigators that his parents also struggled with substance use disorder and that his stepfather physically and sexually abused him.

Now he says he doesn't remember this first woman's name, but he says he booked it out of the city that very same day. And this kind of kickstarted a twisted road trip throughout Florida, Kentucky, Tennessee and South Carolina. In each state he'd commit crimes, usually robberies and burglaries to fund his drug habit. He'd find a woman to share his drugs with and then he would kill her. He said in addition to Sherry and the woman in Orlando, he'd killed at least seven others. And while he didn't remember most of them,

there are two who stick out in his mind. One is a woman named Aline Michelle Branch, who he met in downtown Memphis in December of 1993. The second is another woman in Memphis from around the same time, but he didn't remember much of anything about her other than she was black and had green eyes, although he's not sure if she was wearing contacts that maybe tinted her eye color. Okay, but I guess my question is why confess now? He's already serving a life sentence.

Dude, yeah, investigators are literally thinking the same thing. I mean, they ask him that exact question. And Michael says he has an answer. He basically says, quote, I really have nothing to lose. What are they going to do? Give me another life sentence? End quote. Wow.

So kind of an honest criminal? Maybe, right? I don't know. But still honest to what end, this guy's a known liar. Right, exactly. Do any of these claims hold any water? So the investigators aren't sure because you're right, right? Like this guy is known to lie.

And honestly, in the beginning, it really sounds like he's just bored and wants attention because he even starts contacting reporters to try and tell his story, not just like law enforcement. So like, to me, that's a tension seeking. Right, right. And while most don't give him the time of day, one reporter, Jessica Gertler, who I've mentioned, we've used her reporting as source material for this episode, she actually does sit down with him. Now, police aren't present for this interview, but Jessica later relates to them, the story that Michael tells her, which was that shortly after those murders in Memphis,

he had beaten a woman in a cemetery in Rosdale, Mississippi, after this woman allegedly tried to rob him. So what Jessica does, her and her team start working on trying to match that story to a murder that fits the timeline and location. And it seems like maybe he's telling the truth all along, because according to an article that Jessica writes after the interview, they find a case that matches. In 1993, a 22-year-old woman named Patrice Horsley was murdered. Everything from her cause of death to the location she was found is exactly like Michael described it.

And so investigators in Rosdale, Memphis and the other locations Michael mentioned start to take a closer look into some of the confessions, into some of their unsolved homicides, because maybe he's actually telling the truth. But some can't ID his victims. And others tell investigators in Florida that they just don't see a point in charging Michael. Like he's already like behind bars for life. So like what's the point? I don't know.

I'd still want to see those cases that do have IDs like Patrice and Aline's murder like through to the end, get those convictions so those families can have that proper closure. I mean, I totally agree. But actually when it comes to Aline's murder, Memphis PD closed her case by what they call exceptional means, which basically means that they can't arrest or charge someone for a crime for some reason, but they have enough to bring charges against them. So basically in this case, they think that they know for a fact that he killed her. But since he's already serving a life sentence, they're not going to pursue additional charges.

Okay. Now in 2020, Michael is transferred to the Tomoka Correctional Institution near Daytona Beach. And it's here that he makes another request. He wants to talk to investigators from Daytona Beach Police Department. Another one. Mm-hmm. Michael tells them that on or around October 11th, 1991, he killed another woman. She was white in her 40s and only a tad shorter than his 511 frame.

She had curly brown hair and he'd met her at a bar just off the International Speedway Boulevard. He didn't remember her last name, but he was certain that her first name was Linda. And as soon as Michael says Linda, investigators' hearts sink because they know exactly who he's talking about. Linda Little was 43 years old when she disappeared on her way home from work in Daytona Beach on October 11th, 1991. She was white, had curly brown hair and stood at 511. Back in 1991, investigators had been notified of Linda's disappearance three days after she was last seen. And they'd been able to track her bike ride from the restaurant that she worked at to a bar along the very same street where Michael says he met her. Linda worked the late shift and didn't get off until about 1 a.m., so it wasn't unusual for her to stop for a drink just to kind of unwind.

I don't know when she left the bar, but the next time someone saw Linda, she was riding her bike past a nearby 7-Eleven at around 4 a.m. Her co-workers eventually contacted 9-1-1 when they couldn't get a hold of her. According to an article by Chris Graham for the Daytona Beach News Journal, despite land and water searches, interviews and more than 3,500 flyers being hung around town by her family, the initial investigation never stirred up any viable leads. Both Linda and her bike weren't found, and even though her sister and her adult son swore up and down that she wouldn't just up and leave on her own accord, police at the time concluded that foul play wasn't involved. But now investigators are both shocked and relieved to hear that they might finally solve Linda's case. But as they've always done, they're not just taking Michael's confession at face value.

They want to really dig into this claim and make sure that it's true before they notify her family. So they asked Michael for more information, and he says that even though he lived in Orlando at the time, he liked to make trips to Daytona Beach for just like weekend getaways, especially on his birthday, which just so happened to be the day after Linda was last seen. He says that he and Linda were leaving the bar in his car, presumably to him at least to go have sex, when he suggested that Linda shower first. She allegedly freaked out and was yelling at him, and for whatever reason, Let me guess, he just snapped. Yeah, just snapped. But he backhanded Linda and then choked her to death.

He then kept driving and made the two hour journey to the Georgia border where he pulled off the interstate and dumped her body behind a dumpster in a rural area. What about her bike? I don't know. I couldn't find out what happened to her bike or even if there ever was an explanation. But I do know that they immediately started trying to find Linda, at least her body in Georgia, right? Like this would be the proof that he's telling the truth. The WFTV Orlando News staff reports that they do multiple checks for Jane Doe's in the corresponding county, but they don't find any matches. Meanwhile, other investigators go back to the prison and they show Michael a picture of Linda and ask if he knows this woman. And he says he has no doubt that's the woman he killed back in 91.

So over the next two years, investigators continue building a case around Michael's confession. Now, they never make any evidence public nor do they ever find Linda's body. But I guess they have enough to move forward because on October 24th of 2022, pretty recently, they charge him with first degree murder. And two months later, he's given another life sentence. I mean, that's great, but still no charges on any of the other cases? Well, no, because other than Aline's murder, none have officially been solved. In fact, most of his alleged victims haven't even been identified. But it isn't for a lack of trying.

Officers in Memphis do a lot to try and ID the second victim Michael confessed to. They just don't have much luck. Investigators in Florida are convinced that Michael is a serial killer. They just can't call him that officially. But he could have other victims out there and their families deserve just as much justice as Linda and Sherry's. So crime junkies, it could be up to you. Memphis PD is still trying to identify the other woman Michael says that he murdered around December of 1993. So if you have any information about a black woman who may have had green eyes who went missing from downtown Memphis,

call the MPD's Homicide Bureau at 901-636-3300. And if you have any information on the whereabouts of Linda Little's body, please contact the DBPD and submit an anonymous tip by texting 274637. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. See you next week with a brand new episode. Crime junkie is an audio chuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?