Crime Junkie - CAPTURED: Rocky Mountain Killer

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

Two notorious murder cases stay ice cold for decades, until a mysterious clue helps bring a killer to justice. For current Fan Club membership options and policies, please visit https://crimejunkieapp.com/library/. Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/captured-rocky-mountain-killer/ 

Hi, crime junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I want to tell you today takes us deep into the heart of darkness, hiding under a picturesque small town in the dead of winter. When two women are brutally murdered on the same night, their deaths leave behind a mystery as cold as ice. And for decades, a killer is allowed to walk free. That is, until a mysterious clue helps to finally bring him to justice. This is the story of Barbara Oberholzer and Annette Schnee. A little before 6.30 p.m. on the evening of January 6, 1982, a phone in Alma, Colorado rings.

A man named Jeff Oberholzer picks up the call and on the other line is his 29-year-old wife, Barbara, who everybody calls Bobby Joe. And she's calling to tell him some great news. She just got a promotion at work where she'll be going from a receptionist to office manager. Of course, Jeff is thrilled for her. A promotion means more money, more responsibility, more respect. You know, like, these are professional milestones. Totally, yeah. And Bobby Joe says that she's going to go out for some drinks with her coworkers to celebrate. She says, I'm not going to be out too late. No need to come pick me up because my coworkers are just going to give me a ride home. Because Bobby Joe works in Breckenridge, about a half an hour north of Alma, Jeff isn't expecting her home before 7.30 or like maybe eight at the earliest. I mean, yeah, like an hour or so to celebrate and then the drive home. That totally makes sense.

So in the meantime, Jeff decides he's going to use that time and do something special for her big news. He's going to make like a fancy dinner. He's pulling out all the stops here. He's lighting some candles, getting out the nice plays, doing everything he can to make Bobby Joe feel amazing. 7.30 comes and goes and then eight o'clock with no sign of Bobby Joe. Eventually, Jeff sits down and before he knows what's happening, he falls asleep. Jeff sleeps for a few hours, then wakes up just before midnight. As the haze starts to clear from his mind, he instantly remembers that Bobby Joe was supposed to be on her way home. Maybe she got back, saw him asleep and decided not to wake him up. Totally, like just let him sleep. Right. But when he goes to check their bedroom, Bobby Joe isn't there.

A bit of a chill passes over Jeff, but as he told unsolved mysteries, he doesn't panic yet. He knows that the bars don't actually close until like 2am and Bobby Joe did just get a promotion. So Jeff's thinking like, even though this is a weeknight, maybe she just got carried away. Maybe she just lost track of time. So Jeff waits. But 2am comes and goes then to 30. She should be home. As the clock keeps ticking, Jeff's heart starts to pound. Keep in mind, it's January in the Rocky Mountains, so it is freezing cold outside. We're talking like 30 degrees below zero.

It is snowing super hard and the roads are treacherous. So Jeff starts to worry that maybe something had happened on that trip between Breckenridge and Alma. According to the On the Case with Paula Zahn episode about this case called Rocky Mountain Mystery, Jeff runs to the phone and immediately calls the two colleagues Bobby Joe was out with, hoping one of them can shed some light on where she might be. But as soon as he talks to them, they tell him a story that makes his heart sink. They say Bobby Joe had left the bar alone around 7.30pm. She left alone? I thought she didn't have a car.

She didn't. She told them that she was going to hitchhike home. Did she have like an argument with her coworkers or something? Like it feels a little bit extreme to just randomly decide like not going to take your ride. I'm going to hitchhike. No, nothing like that. According to Kevin Kraft's piece for the Journal Times, it just seems that like in this place at this time, hitchhiking is just super common. To the point that there are actually these unofficial gathering spots where people go to pick up rides. It is a pretty close knit area where everybody kind of knows everybody else.

So at the time, everyone thought this was relatively safe and it's something Bobby Joe actually had done before. So with this in mind, Jeff gets in his truck and makes the drive from Alma to Breckenridge to look for her. The first place he goes is the Bell Tower Mall where both Bobby Joe's office and the bar she went to are located. And then he checks that hitchhiker spot. I just told you about Jeff can't find any trace of her. So right then at around 3am, he decides to go to the police station in Breckenridge and report Bobby Joe missing. But it doesn't quite go as planned. So this is just a shot in the dark, but let me guess, they asked him to wait. Yes. As Jeff recalls on the Sensing Murder episode about this case called Mountain Murders,

the police tell him that Bobby Joe has to be missing for 24 hours before he can file a missing person report. So feeling helpless and realizing there's not much else he can do until the sun comes up, he finally gives up, drives home and tries the best he can to get a little bit of sleep. After a miserable few hours spent tossing and turning, Jeff wakes up at dawn, more determined than ever to find his wife. He gets right on the phone and makes a ton of calls to everyone he knows to arrange a search party. But then at around 9am, before he can get back out on the road and start looking himself, the phone rings again. On the other end is a rancher, and this rancher tells Jeff some disturbing news. He says that he found Bobby Joe's driver's license on his land.

And that's all Jeff needs to hear. He knows now, beyond a shadow of a doubt that something is terribly wrong. And he knows that he needs to see exactly where her license was found to better understand what's going on. So one of Jeff's friends offers him a ride and instantly they head out to this rancher's place to go pick up the license. As they're driving to this ranch on US 285, Jeff catches this like speck of blue out of the corner of his eye, signaling to him like a beacon from the snowy field. When they pull over to check it out, Jeff makes a terrifying discovery. The blue is Bobby Joe's backpack.

Her makeup, sunglasses, and some of Jeff's business cards are there in her backpack. But even more disturbing is what's lying next to it. You see, according to Ryan Osborne's reporting for ABC7 Denver News, next to Bobby Joe's backpack is a bloody tissue. And one of Bobby Joe's cream-colored gloves that is stained red with blood. Fearing the absolute worst for his wife now, Jeff calls the police. Right away, law enforcement springs into action and they hurry out to the ranch. So how far away is the ranch from where Bobby's backpack was found? It's about five miles away, so police are thinking that because of the distance between Bobby's backpack and her driver's license,

like the most likely scenario is that someone might have been like tossing her stuff out of a car or something randomly, like trying to keep it all from being found together. Right, right. Officers collect the evidence Jeff found and talk to the rancher while searchers join Jeff's friends who are already out on skis in a snowy landscape along the main road between Alma and Breckenridge. And it's two of those skiers who make the most shocking discovery of all. At about 3 p.m., two of Jeff's friends on skis find Bobby Joe's body near the top of Hoosier Pass. According to the Judicial Homicide Task Force website, Rocky Mountain Coldcase, she's laying face up, fully dressed,

and she appears to have been shot through the chest. The searchers don't touch anything and they flag down a police car to come process the scene. But that's a monumental task in and of itself due to the weather and the terrain. Like, it's so easy to move snow around by accident and risk obscuring evidence, but they're as careful as they can be and do everything they can, even collecting vials of bloody snow as evidence. Interestingly, police only find a single set of footprints. They also notice a pair of plastic zip ties on one of Bobby Joe's wrists, leading officers to conclude that whoever killed her tried to tie her up first,

and they think that she probably tried to run from her attacker. There is a trail of blood that leads down the embankment toward her body and her head is facing the highway, while Bobby Joe's knees are bent, kind of like she was sliding, almost trying to regain control of her movements as she ran towards safety in the forest. And she almost made it. As they continue scanning the area, police come across a set of keys up in the parking lot on the top of Hoosier Pass. Hang on, when you say pass, I personally at least think of like a road passing between two mountains, but since you said there's a parking lot at the top of it, I think I'm wrong.

Yeah, so I had to look it up too because like, highway live in the Midwest, it's like flat as far as I can see. You can see your dog ran away for three days. Yeah, you're not actually too far off. So pass in this case just means it's like how you get over the mountains, the only road between Breckenridge where Bobby Joe worked and Alma where she lived goes through Hoosier Pass. Okay, so it's basically a road. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's up on top of this pass where the parking lot is, and that's where the keys are that they find.

Okay, and Bobby Joe's body is down further, right? Right, right, right. Okay, just trying to visualize it, got it. Sure, so these keys police find could belong to anyone except that they've got one distinguishing feature. According to Sensing Murder, there's a big brass hook attached to them. And we'll have a picture of this up on our website or you can see it now if you're listening from the crime junkie app. But this hook is something Jeff made for Bobby Joe so she could use it as a self-defense weapon. So finding Bobby Joe's keys makes sense with everything police know so far.

But then they find something that makes no sense. A single orange footy sock. Okay, so I guess why is that weird? You said she was still fully closed. Well, she is, but she's got a pair of white socks on and she wasn't carrying spare clothes in her backpack or anything. So was a sock found on her or next to her or what? My source material doesn't clarify exactly where the sock is found in relation to Bobby Joe's body. I'm pretty sure it wasn't on her, like I said, since she was wearing her own socks, but it has to be close enough in the vicinity that police I know bag it as evidence. And they bag that as they begin the task of getting Bobby Joe's body off the pass into the medical examiner's office for autopsy.

Right, and I'm sure it's one of those things where it's like, let's bag it just in case it may not mean anything, but it could mean something. And this orange sock is standing out in the middle of this like snowy vast space, right? Right. So while they wait for the autopsy results to come back, police set about trying to trace every movement Bobby Joe made on the night she died. As Kevin Kraft reported for the Journal Times, police learned that Bobby Joe was last seen between 730 and 8pm on that Wednesday night. Just like her friend said, she left the bar alone, then she walked to the minute mart about 100 yards away to try and hitch a ride back to Alma. So is the minute mart one of those places you said people go to to catch rides? Yeah, this is like one of those designated spots.

And according to this same article, over 50 people were there that same night doing the exact same thing as Bobby Joe. So no one really was even paying attention to her. Right, like she's not doing anything to stand out or anything. Right, like there's no reason for anyone to have noticed her or even who she got a ride from because so many people were hitching rides. Yeah. So while witnesses aren't providing any helpful information, police's hopes turn next to the autopsy findings. When the autopsy results come back four days later on January 11th, police are able to learn Bobby Joe had been shot with a large caliber handgun at close range, probably from about one or two feet away. One of the bullets grazed her right breast and the other went into the right side of her back.

The report says that neither of the gunshots was fatal on their own, but it was actually the blood loss and hypothermia from the frigid winter night that ultimately led to her death. After retrieving the bullet from Bobby Joe's body, ballistics testing shows it's a copper-jacketed hollow point fired from possibly a 38 or 357, and ultimately it's unclear based on the source material whether or not she was sexually assaulted. But the medical examiner also notes something interesting. They found that both of Bobby Joe's knees were skinned, almost as if she had fallen in an area without a ton of snow. So there could be another scene they need to find. Maybe. I mean, this is all part of investigating Bobby Joe's murder, but police are a little put off to find out that they're not the only ones investigating. According to On The Case with Paula Zahn, Jeff is out there questioning people he thinks might know something about his wife's murder. And something about this makes police uneasy.

Like, is he truly trying to help or is he trying to get in the way or get to something first? And as they dig into Jeff a little more and talk to Bobby Joe's family back in Wisconsin, the things that they learn turn that kind of like side-eye they already had into outright suspicion, especially after they learn that the family had their own doubts about Jeff. But why? All they'll say is something about Bobby Joe and Jeff's marriage has always felt off to them. They don't go into any more detail about what that might mean, though. And, I mean, we know a gut feeling isn't enough to name someone a suspect for murder. So several months go by with no arrests and no breakthroughs. The blood on the glove comes back as matching Bobby Joe's blood type, so police assume that that's hers.

It takes until July 3rd for there to be any real movement in the case. Right in the middle of the 4th of July weekend near Fair Play, Colorado, a father and his teenage son are out fishing in Sacramento Creek. Like, we're talking in the middle of nowhere. And that's when they see a woman's body floating face down in the water. When law enforcement gets to the scene, one of the first things that they pay attention to is where they are. Because, you see, they're about 10 miles south of Hoosier Pass where Bobby Joe was found murdered, you know, not that long ago, maybe like six or seven months. Right. It isn't much. Again, this distance and this familiarity is just like this little prickle of a feeling. But it stays with police as they get this woman out of the water.

Upon closer inspection, she appears to have been shot once in the back. The Rocky Mountain Cold Case website reported that this woman, like Bobby Joe, is found fully dressed. But unlike Bobby Joe, this woman's clothes are messed up. And while she's got both of her shoes on, police can't help but notice that her socks don't match. She's got on a long striped sock on her right foot, but on her left foot, she is wearing one orange footy sock. Like the same one found near Bobby Joe? They sure look the same to police. So seeing this, that feeling in police's gut grows stronger.

And they start to wonder, could these two murders be connected? According to a piece in the Colorado Springs Gazette, the woman from the creek is too decomposed for any kind of visual identification. So she's taken back to the crime lab and within just a few days, dental records give police what they've been waiting for. Her name, Annette Schnee. She's 21 years old and as police scan their files, they see that she was reported missing almost six months ago. Any doubt police had about a connection to Bobby Joe evaporates when they see the date she was reported missing. The last time anyone saw Annette alive was on January 6th. That same day Bobby Joe went missing, right?

Yep. Now they know they're looking for one killer who had two victims on that fateful night. The police records show that Annette's disappearance was actually investigated at the time it was reported. So now with her body found, officers already have the records of her last movements. There was nothing to suggest she'd run away. And according to Max Haynes article in the Lethbridge Herald, police know that Annette, like Bobby Joe, was a regular hitchhiker. And on the morning of January 6th, she hitchhiked from her home near Breckenridge to her job as a hotel maid in Frisco, about 20 minutes north. She got off work at around 3.30 that afternoon, then caught a ride back to Breckenridge so she could get ready for her second job at a bar there in town.

I mean, not the same bar where Bobby Joe was celebrating her promotion by any chance, right? It's actually not the same bar. But even if it had been, they wouldn't have seen each other because as police learn, Annette never showed up for work that night. Based on what they know from the missing person's investigation, when Annette first went missing, she did make it back to Breckenridge from Frisco because she was last seen at a local pharmacy in Breckenridge at around 4.45 p.m. on January 6th. So just over three hours before her shift at the bar was due to start, she filled the prescription and then seemed to vanish into thin air. Her roommates reported her missing on January 7th after she never came home from work. Once Annette's autopsy results come back, they show another similarity between her and Bobby Joe.

Like I said, Annette was also shot in the back and they learned it was with a large caliber handgun. Although in her case, the bullet passed right through her body and police couldn't locate it. Just like with Bobby Joe, my source material has conflicting information about whether or not Annette was sexually assaulted, since it's said that her clothes were in such disarray, I tend to believe it's likely that she was. When police break the horrible news to Annette's family, her mom, Eileen, is actually the one who can link the murders once and for all. As she tells On The Case with Paula Zahn, she confirms that the orange socks definitely belonged to Annette, and she knows this for a fact because she'd given them to Annette as a Christmas gift. Now, I'm sure police thought that this was it. This was their big break.

Yeah. With another victim and more evidence, surely they would be able to find their killer, but nothing new that they learned got them any closer to their killer. So they just had to wait for something new to pop up. And that happened in September of 1982, eight months after Bobby Joe died and two months after Annette's body was found. That's when Annette's backpack shows up. And according to Nicole Formosa, who reported for Summit Daily, her backpack is found near Hoosier Pass, not far from where Bobby Joe was murdered.

When police open it, they find Annette's keys, they find some loose change, her chapstick, a photo of a man. And here, Brad, it's worth showing you, this is the photo that they found. Okay, so it's just a black and white photo of Guy. It almost to me kind of looks mugshot style, if that makes sense. Yeah. And one eye is at least partially closed. And the other one, it's kind of squinting. His eyes remind me of when my three-year-old tries to wink.

One eye is kind of squinting, one eye is kind of closed, but we're not quite to either place yet. Well, it's not quite as like, and I'm not so focused on that. It's not quite as like posed as like a school photo, but that's like the size of it, right? It's like this small photo that you would keep in like a wallet or something. Also, there's really interesting lighting. Yeah. There's an intense shadow on one side, right? Yeah, but the problem is there's no name, there's no writing.

There's like nothing on the front, nothing on the back. So this guy is just kind of a mystery. They don't know how he's related to Annette, what it means. But that's not all they find because there's something else in Annette's backpack. Something that you're not going to believe. Police find one of Jeff Oberholzer's business cards in Annette's backpack. What? According to unsolved mysteries, when police ask him about it,

Jeff first tells them he never met Annette, and he didn't know how one of his business cards could have wound up with her stuff. But then, Jeff changes his story. Okay. He calls police back a couple of days later and tells them, you know what? After I saw Annette's picture in the paper, I just remembered. I do recognize her because I actually gave her a ride once. Jeff says he'd seen Annette hitchhiking in the summer of 81,

picked her up and gave her a card for his appliance repair business. But he says he hasn't seen her since then. I mean, Ashley, you and I have been doing this show long enough. How many times have we heard this? It seems like a completely unreal coincidence. I mean, it's like almost too unreal, right? Yeah, totally. So, I mean, my first question is, where was Jeff when Annette went missing?

Well, according to that summit daily piece that I mentioned earlier, Jeff tells police that he was at home with a friend who can confirm his alibi. And Jeff vehemently denies having anything to do with the murders. And he even passes multiple polygraph tests and lets police search his house. But nothing comes of any of it. And with no physical evidence linking him to either crime, police know they don't have enough to charge Jeff with murder. The investigation into both Bobby Joe and Annette's murders stalls.

And by Christmas of 1982, it's at a complete standstill. And that's how it stays until January of 84, when a man named Henry Lucas is briefly investigated as a possible suspect. Henry is already in jail for murdering a Jane Doe known only as orange socks. Are they only looking at him because of Annette's orange socks, or is there something else? The source material doesn't actually specify what makes police look at Henry or what makes them decide he's not their guy after all. All I can tell you is that he was looked at, he's investigated,

and then ultimately ruled out. And honestly, we could do a whole episode just about Henry and his whole situation. I mean, he's popped up in other episodes before, but that's a story for another day. After Henry's crossed off law enforcement's list, the case grinds back to a halt. And the case stays dormant all the way until March of 95, just over 13 years after the murders, when police then announce that they might finally have a suspect. According to the Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph,

his name is Thomas Luther. He's currently serving a 15-year sentence for a rape and kidnapping across the country in West Virginia, and he's just been indicted for murder. And he's got this long, horrible rap sheet. Like, this dude is bad news. Okay, but like, bad news, conviction, rap sheet, whatever. Was he even in Colorado at the time of Bobby Joe and Annette's murders? Actually, he was.

I read on ABC7 Denver News that Thomas was convicted of another rape and vicious assault that took place in February of 82 in Summit County, which is just north of Breckenridge and Alma. So law enforcement is confident that he was in the area. And it just so happens, after he was arrested for that crime, Thomas bragged to a pair of inmates that he was the person who murdered Bobby Joe and Annette. Surprise, surprise, though, when police traveled to West Virginia to talk to him, Thomas denies having anything to do with either murder.

In fact, he points out that the crimes don't fit his MO. Like Annette and Bobby Joe were both shot while Thomas mentions to law enforcement that he tends to use a hammer. And he also says something that honestly sends shivers straight down the backs of these seasoned investigators. He says, quote, they weren't my girls. End quote. Now, of course, law enforcement doesn't believe a word that's coming out of Thomas's mouth,

especially not after he fails not one, but two polygraph tests. Okay, so obviously, dude is a disgusting human being, but failing a polygraph or two isn't enough to charge him with murder, or at least not these murders. No, it's not. And so even though Thomas remains at the top of police's list, along with Jeff Oberholzer, there's really not much they can do other than go back to Colorado

and try and take comfort in the fact that Thomas isn't going to disappear. And if when they get the evidence to make a case against him, you know, he'll still be behind bars. So the case stalls yet again. Bobby Joe and Annette's murders get like bursts of publicity here and there over the years from shows like Unsolved Mysteries, even Oprah, and every time a rerun airs, police do get new tips that they investigate every single time,

but they all end up being dead ends. Despite the heartbreak and frustration, law enforcement has one beacon of hope, science. DNA technology gets better and better every year, and law enforcement keeps going back periodically to Bobby Joe's bloody glove to see what new things they can learn from it. And finally, in 1996, one of these tests yields a startling result, because remember how I told you that the blood type matches Bobby Joe?

Yeah. So it's the same blood type, but turns out the DNA shows it's not actually her blood. What? According to Kirk Mitchell's reporting for the Denver Post, the DNA actually belongs to a man. A man, police are sure killed both women. And didn't you say that police think that Bobby Joe fought her attacker? Yes, specifically because of that bloody tissue.

Yeah. So now with this man's blood on her glove, it looks like she fought hard, wounding her killer in the process. But the question remains, whose blood is it? When police test the DNA from the glove against Thomas Luther, it comes back negative. He was telling the truth after all. And it's also not a match for Jeff Oberholzer.

So with their two main suspects eliminated, police have the DNA entered into CODIS to check for any matches from the FBI and the national database, but nothing turns up there. So once a week over the next 20 plus years, the DNA is checked against the CODIS system, coming up negative every single time. And then in 2020, law enforcement in Colorado gets wind of a pioneering new crime-solving technique, genetic genealogy.

Yes. Forensic genealogists start with a massive family tree over 12,000 names and work painstakingly to narrow it down branch by branch, person by person. It takes until January of 2021 to finally get the break police have waited almost 40 years for. According to Kelly R Kirkpatrick's reporting for the flume, the forensic genealogists working with the genetic profile from Bobby Joe's glove are able to narrow down that pool of potential matches to just two names.

And one of those names is a man named Alan Lee Phillips. As police dig into Alan's background, they learn that he lived in Colorado since the early 70s and he was arrested for assault back in 73. And at the time this is going on in 2021, he's 70 years old now. So was he ever a suspect before now? No, never. So instead of risking spooking him by flat out asking for a DNA sample,

police put him under surveillance in January 2021 instead, just waiting for their moment. I mean, they literally watch his every move for six weeks until February 20th. That's when Alan seems to be having a pretty normal day. He stops off at a sonic drive-through, then he goes to the post office, where undercover officers see him throw away a brown bag. Police collect the bag, send it off for DNA testing, and they wait, calling on every last reserve of patients they have.

And just days later, the results come back. Alan's DNA is a match for the blood on Bobby Joe's glove and the bloody tissue. On February 24th, 2021, after 39 grueling years of searching, Alan Lee Phillips is arrested in Clear Creek County, Colorado, and charged with the murders of Barbara Oberholzer and Annette Schnee. But once Alan's arrested, police are stunned to see the case take one final twist. Because while Alan was never a suspect before this year, it turns out he actually came in contact with law enforcement the night of the murders.

Wait, what? Yes, this is the most bizarre, like, never heard of anything like this story before. So according to 9 News, Alan's truck got stuck in the snow on this pass on January 6th, 1982. And he only lived to tell about it because a local sheriff just happened to be on a plane, flying over the exact spot Alan was stranded. And so this guy looks out the window, saw Alan flashing his headlights in an SOS pattern, recognized what that meant and what was happening, he hurries to tell the plane's flight crew who then radio down to dispatch to help him.

Like, all of these pieces had to fall exactly into place for him to be rescued and they did. When the fire chief got out to Alan and got him out of there, he noticed that Alan had a big bruise on his face. And at the time, Alan said that he just like clocked himself on his truck door when he got out to pee because he was a little drunk in like whiteout conditions. And at the time, the fire chief didn't think anything of it, other than this guy had to be so lucky not to be dead. So no one ever put the pieces together that this dude with his massive bruise on his face,

kind of in the same area who's stuck, is stuck in the same area with the bruise on his face where two women were murdered that same day. I was gonna say, like, we're recording this in August of 2021. This arrest happened literally a couple months ago and this entire time, almost 40 years, the sheriff not only saw Alan stuck in a drift in the area from a plane, from a plane, notified other emergency personnel to help him out and the dude has a massive bruise on his face and like he was never questioned or addressed or connected or anything ever.

Well, because if you remember, like, at the time, they wouldn't take Bobby Joe's missing persons report that night, right? The plane wasn't even involved in the search, it was just a random plane. And I'm sure, you know, rescuing a guy, you guys were the hero, this poor guy almost died, that probably didn't make it on anyone's radar, like nobody even thought of that once this missing person report became a homicide, became a double homicide. It's unreal to think about. Today, Alan remains in prison pending his trial. For Bobby Joe and Annette's families, his arrest means something like closure after a nightmare spanning almost four decades.

It's a testament to time, tenacity and technology proving once again that justice can never come too late. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website crimejunkiepodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Crimejunkie is an audio chuck production. So, what do you think Chuck? Do you approve?