Crime Junkie - INFAMOUS: The Bricca Family

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

When the Bricca family is found murdered in their home, rumors and speculation follow every turn of the investigation. Although a suspect seems clear from the start, a lack of evidence and closure leaves Cincinnati residents on edge through the mid-late 60s. For even more detail on this case, check out JT Townsend’s book, Summer’s Almost Gone: The Haunting Case of the Bricca Family!You can learn more about The Good segment and even submit a story of your own by visiting The Good page on our website! Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit: crimejunkiepodcast.com/infamous-the-bricca-family/ Don’t miss out on all things Crime Junkie!Instagram: @crimejunkiepodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @CrimeJunkiePod | @audiochuckTikTok: @crimejunkiepodcastFacebook: /CrimeJunkiePodcast | /audiochuckllcCrime Junkie is hosted by Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat. Instagram: @ashleyflowers | @britprawatTwitter: @Ash_Flowers | @britprawatTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more!

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Britt. And the story I have for you today will leave you scratching your head, just like I have been. Because it's about a family that met an untimely end, a crime scene that doesn't make much sense, and someone who either got away with murder

or spent the rest of his life haunted by the rumor he did. This is the story of the Bricca family. You guys, your neighbors probably know more about you than you think they do. And I don't say that to be creepy, it's just true. Like you probably know more about them than they think you do. Because even if you're not close, neighbors kind of notice things about your routine, and it's all just based on proximity. Like when you get home from work, when do your lights normally go out? If you're out every Saturday doing yard work in the summer,

who walks your dog, like that type of thing. Yes, oh my goodness, there's this family who lives a couple blocks away from us that have two little sausage dogs, a bloodhound, and also their cats. Okay, sure. Like, we follow them on their walks, and it's like an everyday thing.

We see them march past our house, this little parade. I have this full adult man in my neighborhood who like I can set my watch to the time he like zooms by on his scooter. I swear he like gets home from work and he's like, scooty time. But you get the point. So the same is true for the Bricca family in Cincinnati, Ohio.

None of the neighbors are particularly close to Jerry, Linda or their four-year-old daughter, Debbie. I mean, aside from maybe some babysitting every now and then, some friendly conversation in the driveway, no one on quiet suburban Greenway Avenue would call themselves friends with this family. Still, the neighbors have been noticing that their routines have been off lately. For instance, come Tuesday, September 27th, 1966,

trash day was Monday, their cans were out like clockwork Sunday evening, but Monday came and went, and then no one brought the cans in. And now the cans are still out there on the curb all day on Tuesday. And this is not the routine, I imagine. Not the routine.

And it's not even just the trash cans though. 23-year-old Linda hasn't been seen working in their front yard like normal Debbie's not playing outside Their two dogs aren't barking like they always do like the dogs for me is like the one that I flag I know the dogs that bark in the neighborhood exactly and possibly most telling several of their lights have been left on Since Sunday night and they're not changing It's like the same stinking lights. And I'm sure some of this could have probably just been written off like,

oh, they went out of town for the weekend or whatever, except that doesn't work because Jerry's car is still sitting right there in the driveway. So by Tuesday, the neighbors start talking, like, have you seen them? It's so weird, isn't it? Like, do you think they're okay? And they probably waited out just a little.

But by 10 p.m. that night, those who are concerned have had enough waiting. And specifically, it's one of the women on the street who really notices and takes action. Of course it is. Our antennas are always up. We make the best detectives, first of all. But also, this is like mid-'60s we're talking, so we're in like gender roles central here.

Men are going to work, she's at home, all the women on the street are probably home most of the day. They're staying home with the kids or doing the housework or whatever. They are there to notice these things. They are the ones who are noticing how unusual things at the Brickhouse have been. So one of these women is like, hey hubby, like gonna need your help for a sec, can you go over for me and see what's up?

According to JT Townsend's book, Summer's Almost Gone, which was the primary source material for this episode, this husband, he walks up to the Bricca's front door, rings the doorbell, nothing. Not even barks from the dogs dogs who can always be heard loudly announcing visitors. So he walks over to the garage, he pulls up the garage door and he sees Linda's car sitting there inside, which is like even a worse sign because now he knows, right, we've got Jerry's car, we've got Linda's car.

Like, yes. So this man goes and grabs a neighborhood buddy who basically says like, Hey, let's try and track them down before we go calling police or jumping to any conclusions. Maybe this is just a misunderstanding. They call Jerry's workplace where he's a project engineer with a large, like, chemical company. And, although it is late into the evening, there is someone still there who can confirm that not only is Jerry not there right now, Jerry hasn't been to work Monday or Tuesday, though he was supposed to be.

Not good. A call is also placed to an 18 year old who regularly babysits for the family. She hasn't seen them either, but she senses how worrisome this is, so she and her father head to the Brick-A-Home to see what they can do to help. So all four, the two neighbors, the babysitter, her dad,

they meet in front of the house, and then three of them decide to walk around to the back just in case they spot anything. So out in the backyard, the babysitter finds more cause for concern. Her heart beats a little faster as she makes her way to the back window, but it completely stops

when she peers inside the family room. Because, I mean, this is such an eerie sight. The dogs are sitting there, holding almost perfectly still. Now they're alive, they're just like there. And in that book, JT Townsend uses the word comatose. Weird. Isn't it? And it's that sight that squashes any lingering hope

that this is all just a misunderstanding. These are not super friendly dogs, so the fact that they haven't been reacting at all to the knocking and the doorbell ringing is like, honestly straight-up terrified. Whatever is inside this home, whatever happened to the family, they're sure in that moment that it's bad. So they walk back around to the front of the house, they decide they have to get inside. So they crack the unlocked door open, but they don't even make it past the front threshold

because instantly all three of them are like smacked in the face with this overwhelming smell of decay. One of the neighbors has a flashlight with them and he shines the light inside and up a short staircase, he catches sight of what looks like a foot. So they immediately close the door, they go call police, and when two patrol officers respond, that's when they finally learn what's inside the house.

Now it is this tri-level type house. So you've got a short staircase that heads up to the top floor and then another short staircase that leads to the lower family room. And they decide to go upstairs first. They go straight to the primary bedroom and there they find a man and a woman, presumably 23 year old Linda and 28 year old Jerry. They're lying on the floor between the bed and the wall and Jerry is face down in what looks like his work clothes. He has a gray slacks on, a long sleeve shirt, dark socks,

and then he's got this separate sock, or maybe even a pair of socks, depending on what you read, that is stuffed in his mouth, and there's like white tape stuck to his jaw on his left cheek. But most glaringly, he has several obvious stab wounds in his back, and Linda is obvious stab wounds in his back. And Linda is laying partially on top of him. Now, she is face-up wearing a negligee and a robe. She's barefoot. Her top is pulled down, exposing her chest. A towel is covering the right side of

her chest, but it can't hide the numerous stab wounds to the left side. She's got them on her chest, on her neck, even her head. And they can tell that blood is pooled on the floor beneath both of them. And there are actually two distinct pools of blood on the bed as well. Are they bound in any way? So they're not at the time that they're found,

but they had been, they can tell, because they both have like ligature marks. Okay. So remember, these are like two patrol officers that are finding them. Out of their league. Well above their pay grade, so they've got to call in backup.

Though before they do, they peek in the smaller bedroom, which is right next door to the primary. And there, laying on her stomach with her arms stretched out above her is the little girl. Debbie. Now she's wearing her PJs and a robe. She's got a single red sock on. Her other sock is in the bed, and from her positioning,

it looks like she had been dragged to where she was. And like her dad, she had been stabbed in the back. So it's not long before Greenway Avenue is lit up with emergency lights as police cars gather around this small home. Right from the start, it is pretty chaotic. The Bricca's house is in Green Township, which is just a few blocks northwest

of where Cincinnati PD's jurisdiction ends. So you have Green Township cops, but then a few Cincinnati investigators show up as well, creating this weird tension because even though it should technically be a Green Township case, Cincinnati is much more equipped to handle an investigation like this. Like they have more access to resources.

They've probably done something at least closer to this before. But on top of this, both jurisdictions are part of Hamilton County. And so some of those guys show up too. And just adding to the chaos are first responders from the fire department who are like traipsing around the scene.

And they're not following any proper protocols according to Townsend's book. Like, one detective even sees a firefighter who like picks up a briefcase without gloves, only to realize like, oh crap, like I shouldn't be just like, picking things up, so he puts it down and... Why are they even there? I honestly have no idea. I don't know if it was like a...

Emergency services, alcohol or something? Sometimes when I, like EMT calls, they'll call. I have no idea, but there's like, there is no fire. I honestly feel like everyone just showed up to this. I think this is just like such a wild scenario that that everyone from any department ever is all hands on deck Yeah, now it takes nearly two hours But eventually the investigation is given to Hamilton County and everyone else is basically told to like get the hair I'm like like we need space. Right. So from here, a bunch of things happen kind of all at once.

Fans and lights are brought in, blowing the smell out, kind of illuminating the whole home against the pitch black night. The dogs are removed, seemingly unhurt, and the neighbors who went up to the door initially are brought back inside to ID the bodies to confirm that they are in fact Jerry, Linda, and Debbie. And right away there are a few things that stick out to investigators.

First, a bunch of the drawers in the house are open. Dresser drawers are pulled out, so are the ones in the living room. Jerry's billfold is lying on his nightstand empty, so at first this kind of feels like a robbery gone very, very wrong, but something bothers them about that. Actually, a lot bothers them about this scene. And they know in that moment that nothing about this case is gonna be straightforward or easy. Other than the contents of Jerry's billfold, nothing major appears to be missing.

I mean, Jerry's even still wearing his wedding band. So if they weren't looking for valuables, what were they looking for? Precisely. Also with how violent the deaths were, you would expect there to be some signs of a frantic attack, like a struggle, lamps knocked over, blood on the walls. But there's nothing like that.

Everything is like perfectly in its place. And here's what everyone thinks is so odd. So there's no report of any blood outside of the bedrooms, and there's no back spatter on the walls. Which you would usually see with like multiple stab wounds. Right. So for anybody who's like not aware, back spatter happened when you pull out, blood comes with it.

Right. And that would then like go essentially behind whoever's stabbing, back spatter. Yeah. I mean, you would see that, but apparently there's none of that in the room, which doesn't make sense. I mean, if they were like tied up with that, like if there wasn't a like struggle, would there still be spatter? I mean, I'm pretty sure. And it is so weird because to your point, like there isn't a struggle.

Like it's almost when I, when I like, from what I know about the scene, it's almost like they were asleep. But if they were asleep, in my mind, like you wouldn't have need to bind them. Like with, with ligatures the way that they were, like, and if they're not asleep, that they would have been fighting or moving you would think and honestly I like forget them being asleep because if you remember the women or the girls the Debbie and her mom Linda they had their robes on so I don't think they would have been like we're getting ready right in bed Jerry's still in his work

clothes and what I didn't tell you the TV in the family room was still on when everyone came in like it almost is like they Were watching TV when whatever happened happened so Regardless if they were tied up and awake which I think we can say like yes, and yes There should definitely be the back spatter that is missing. Yes unless someone for like straight-up hours Meticulously came in and cleaned.

So, yeah, which how? Now, based on the size and shape of the stab wounds, investigators know that they are looking for a knife, but a thorough search of the house doesn't turn up any kind of bloody blade anywhere. According to an article in the Cincinnati Post, one knife is missing from a set in their home. So they kind of begin to think that that

could be the murder weapon. And they think that it's possible the killer took that with him in a newspaper, because apparently there were two newspapers outside of the house. But really, there should have been three. Again, they're missing for, like, multiple days. And so, like, the paper delivery, there's one paper that should be there.

They know was delivered. They actually checked with the newspaper., there's one paper that should be there. They know was delivered. They actually checked with the newspaper, but it's not there. So what they're thinking is that this person took the newspaper, like wrapped the knife in it and then actually threw it in the garbage. Because you remember, it's trash day. It was trash day. So they think that that's gone with the trash. Which I think it's pretty telling that they didn't bring a weapon with them.

They used a weapon already inside the house, because that feels like they didn't come there to kill anybody. Maybe, maybe not. I think it depends on if they knew the family or not. So like stick with me here. So investigators eventually find out that the knife that's missing is this, it's a six and a half inch blade, but the handle has this decorative carving. So it actually might be something

that the family keeps out on display on their counter or dining room, whatever. But they- You need to access. Yeah, they also, again, I don't know that for sure. They might keep it safely tucked away in a drawer, especially since they have a four year old. Like, I mean, I have a two and a half year old,

there's no way I'm like, Josie can get into anything. Right. So what they're basically thinking is- But, like, I mean, I have a two-and-a-half-year-old, there's no way I'm, like, josing in to anything. Right. So what they're basically thinking is... But all those drawers were open, so... Very fair. I think you just threw a wrench into, like, what I was saying, or what they were thinking, because they're basically, like...

They think if it was, like, sitting out all the time, a stranger could have easily grabbed it. And to your point, they didn't come with their own. But they're thinking if it was in a drawer, you were saying that it all pulled open, then the more likely scenario is that someone familiar with the family knew that it was there and still could have like planned. Like I know the weapon I'm looking for is going to be there. So I don't need to bring anything myself. Right. So even though the murder weapon is missing,

they do their best to collect what they can. Prints, the bloody towel that was thrown over Linda's body, and even some Marlboro brand cigarettes that they think are from the killer. And they also carefully remove a single strand of hair that is clutched in Linda's hand. Though don't get excited about the hair because I literally know next to nothing about it. I don't know the color. I don't know the length. Like I couldn't find anything yet.

All I know is that it's not from any of the victims. So while it feels like a really important piece of evidence, I'm letting you know now that like it isn't explained in any of the stuff that I read. I shouldn't ask about it later because it's just, this is it. Don't even know if they still have it. But I do know that I, or at least I believe I know that it was sent off for testing along with everything else to the FBI because back in the day, they're able to do far more testing than any kind of local agency. Like, crime labs in the 60s are a far cry

from what we know them today. So while we wait many, many moons to get those results back, detectives do the boots on the ground work. They're canvassing the neighborhood, they're talking to the neighbors, they're getting in touch with Jerry's coworkers, and they quickly learn that this is a quiet, safe street,

the kind where no one locks their doors, where neighbors are familiar with one another. And that familiarity also breeds a lot of rumors that residents gladly start to share with police. Rumors that Linda and Jerry's relationship wasn't all that stable, and that Linda may have been having an affair. There are a few stories that corroborate this,

some of which revolved around Linda's love of animals, or her obsession, rather. For example, every time the circus came to town, she'd spend like hours with the animal trainers, like working for them for free, and one time she even brought home this random bear trainer to dinner. Okay.

Which was a complete surprise to Jerry, who worked really long, sometimes very unusual hours of his own, and this began to cause some tension. Especially when she would come home super late in the evening, forcing the various babysitters they had to stay hours upon hours over their scheduled time. would come home super late in the evening, forcing the various babysitters they had to stay hours upon hours over their scheduled time. So between the long hours and then having to get along with the Bricca's aggressive dogs, which is like a thing with the babysitters, they had to like make sure the dogs like wouldn't attack them

before they came over. Between all of that, like they didn't actually keep many sitters for very long. And actually this issue of Linda coming home late seemed to come to a head the Wednesday before their deaths. So investigators learned that Linda had just started working part-time at a local vet's office and her shift was supposed to end at 9 p.m.

Debbie was being watched by a neighbor that night at the neighbor's house and she's watching. The clock is like slowly ticking from nine to 9.30 to 10, and the neighbor starts to get a little frustrated. And finally, it wasn't Linda who showed up, but Jerry, having gotten home from work sometime between 10 and 10.30, and he finds his house empty,

so he went and got their daughter, then Linda showed up a little bit after that and explained that she had to have a drink with the vet at the clinic after having, they like tried to save this cat, but they couldn't, it got hit by a car, and so everyone's upset. What was Linda's job at the clinic? Like, was she actually like working with the animals?

Like, was she a vet tech? She was a receptionist. But like, she explained that the cat was brought in late, the vet's assistant was like already gone for the day, so she like, she jumped in to help, and then she said like they couldn't save it, they were both really upset or the vet was really upset, so they decided to have a drink before they went home. So is the rumor that she's having an affair with the vet then?

That's what detectives eventually end up hearing. And the coming home late story is just one of several that really give them a sense of the couple's relationship. I mean, if you want to go deep in this, I mean, I definitely check out Townsend's book that I mentioned, but from what I've been able to gather about both of them, it seems like they just wanted very different things. Like, Linda was more of a free spirit. She wasn't your stereotypical 60s housewife, and she wanted the freedom to go

do what she wanted when she wanted. But Jerry wanted more of that, like, you know, white picket fence Norman Rockwell kind of life and family. So this incompatibility was becoming an obvious issue to everyone that police speak with. Did anyone say anything specifically about Sunday? Were the family there? Like, what did they see? So, okay, as far as the neighbors go, somebody saw Jerry take the trash cans out at around nine, but that's kind of it.

Aside from like a few thumps that are maybe heard, there's no screaming, there's no crashing, there's nothing to suggest a violent crime was taking place. And I mean, these houses are only like 15 feet apart, so you would have thought that maybe a neighbor would have heard something of this. Now another tidbit that they find out that feels important is that neighbors say whenever company came over, the family would shut the two dogs in like the lower level family room.

And that's where they were found, like on Tuesday night, the sitter found them there. Right, with the TV still on. And we don't know a lot about these dogs, but we know that they weren't the friendliest, and they probably wouldn't just let anybody come in the house in general, let alone kill their whole family. Right, they don't even like most people.

Therefore, more than likely, they're thinking it was either Jerry or Linda who put them in the room. They don't think a stranger walked in the house and then got them to go in that room together. Could have even done it. Right. I mean, unless it was someone that the dogs knew. Right. Or if someone somehow got to them before the dogs and they, like, forced them, maybe, to put the dogs away.

Some people also speculate that the dogs might have been drugged, which could explain their lethargic behavior. Yeah, but they were also like trapped in this separate area of the house for 48 hours, no food, no water, like that also could make them lethargic. And also with the drugs wear off in that amount of time. Well, that's the thing is like by the time they got there, like they couldn't do any testing. Right. And what I keep thinking is like, okay, but like, how do you get close to drug them unless you know them or you have like someone in the family corralling them? We're talking about this now.

How much of this was being talked about in those first couple of hours? Well, interviews continue over the next few days, but the next day, the 28th, the coroner releases his initial findings. Now this isn't a full report, but it's, the coroner releases his initial findings. Now this isn't a full report, but it's enough to give investigators something to work with. And the findings are definitely interesting.

The report confirms that Linda had had sex before she died. Not right before, but like 24 to 30 hours before, at least according to the coroner's estimate. Right before, but like 24 to 30 hours before, at least according to the coroner's estimate. But he can't 100% confirm if it was consensual or not. He tends to lean toward it being a sexual assault, but detectives aren't putting all their eggs in that basket just yet.

And he's saying it was a full day before she died. Oh yeah, 24 to 30 hours. And when is he saying that she was killed? So we don't know for sure, but like based on the contents of their stomachs, they're saying that the family died. They're thinking sometime Sunday night. Okay. Now, to go back to the sexual assault kit that he did, he did find sperm, which was

collected and sent off for testing because even though we're like a far cry from DNA at this point, we do have, you can like test sperm for like a blood type, right? So that gets sent off, and then he confirms that ligatures were used. Sources vary, but according to reporting for the Cincinnati Inquirer, Jerry was tied up with a rope and Linda was bound with tape. And they can tell that based on like, she had remnants of adhesive on her skin. Now they didn't find any rope at the scene, but there was a dog leash that was found

laying on the couch, which investigators confirm is not where they normally kept their dog leashes or whatever, so. Not where most people keep a dog leash, right? Right, so they're thinking that they may have been tied up with that, but like, that means that at some point, like after they're dead, like. Someone took the leash and put it back on the couch.

Why? Yeah. And then finally the coroner confirms that there also were no defensive wounds. But the damage to each of their bodies was extensive because in total Jerry had four stab wounds in his back, three in his neck, two in his head. Linda had six wounds on her chest, two in her neck, and two on her head. And Debbie was stabbed four times in the back. And all this was with the same weapon. It seems like it.

They never mention a second one. And the theory is that just one person did all this? I mean, I find it hard to believe that one person with just a knife could have tied up two adults and then killed them without anybody seeing or hearing anything while there was a kid in the house. I agree if it all happened at the same time, like, because I would think you would need two people to at least overpower and control them, at least the two adults, even if like only one of them had a knife.

And this this theory of multiple people is actually, it's brought up in Summer's Almost Gone in that book. But I kind of can't help but look at the timeline of their last day and wonder if it could have been one person. So let me give it to you. So here's the timeline. Based on records and conversations with neighbors and coworkers,

they determined that Jerry arrived at work that morning at 7.30. On a Sunday. Dude, I told you, he works like, he's a workhorse. Okay. And he wasn't, he's not like he was scheduled to go in like he just always did But anyways, he goes in at 730 like works for like a little bit, but then he goes to Mass at 9 He goes and gets gas at like 1030 and then he gets back home at like 1050 in the morning at 1210 We know that Linda called Walgreens about a prescription, and then Jerry was back at work by 1225.

And then he signs out finally at 425. He goes and picks up that prescription for Linda, and then he's home by 645 to take a call from a coworker about a flight that they were supposed to go on together the next day. And this is supposed to be, this flight was supposed to be this really quick work trip that you're just like there and back the next day. And this is supposed to be, this flight was supposed to be this really quick work trip that you're just there and back the same day.

And this coworker was wondering if Jerry could pick him up, drive him to the airport that morning, Jerry agrees. They're gonna meet at 6.30 in the morning the following day. Wasn't that a red flag to the coworker when Jerry didn't show up to pick him up? I guess not really, I would've thought so too. But it turns out that their work schedules are really, like they change and fluctuate a lot.

So the coworker just kind of assumed that he'd been pulled into something else and just couldn't go on this trip anymore. So knowing he doesn't show up the next day, I don't know how big this place is or whatever, red flag to me, I don't know. But the last two sightings of the family on that Sunday night were later that night.

Jerry goes to the store at 8.45 to pick up some groceries, and then at 9, he is spotted by his trash cans at the curb, seemingly just taking them out for like, pick up the following morning. And Linda's home all day? That's the assumption, at least, because it looks like nobody saw her out and about that day. Which means, to me, that there is roughly a five and a half hour-ish block where she's home alone with Debbie. Or we're assuming that because no one saw her, but maybe she's not home. Now, I'm assuming that like all of the family members were killed around the same time based on their

stomach contents, but my question is like were they all tied up at the same time? Like police are so convinced there had to be two killers, but like what if there was just one? What if he got to Debbie and Linda before Jerry got home from work? What if I'm gonna... A lot of what ifs. I mean, yes, maybe. But if Jerry got home at like what, 645 ish, why would the killer let him go out to get groceries, put the trash out? Like, he's coming in and out of the house. Yeah. Like, after Linda's already, like, subdued. I don't know.

He also went to the grocery store, so maybe, like, it happened when he was at the grocery store. Maybe, I don't know, maybe with the right weapon, you could have threatened them not to do anything. But then I go back to the weapon being in the house. Right, like, that's something the killer couldn't predict to have. I know. Possibly unless they knew the family.

Right, and I feel like there's probably more to this timeline that's been lost to time. Like what little information is in the public feels kind of all over the place. Because there was even one article that I saw that says he doesn't get home until eight. So I mean maybe there's a world where he like doesn't get home and he's pulling the trashcans out like for the very first, I don't know. Okay, say they do tie Linda up, wait for Jerry to get home. Why? Like, it's not a robbery, right? You'd be in and out if that was the case. Like, was Jerry the intended target then? Like, they were waiting for him because they were there for him.

But then why would you kill Debbie and Linda? I mean, they weren't supposed to be there, but also like where else would they be? Right, that's what I'm saying. Like they were supposed to be there. She's a- That's like the one place they're supposed to be. Yeah, I don't- I mean, so maybe it was someone random who didn't know their schedule.

Grasping at straws here. I don't know. So that's actually the one thing investigators feel kind of certain about that this wasn't random, because they're thinking it all comes back to Debbie. thing investigators feel kind of certain about that this wasn't random. Because they're thinking, it all comes back to Debbie. There is no reason in their minds that you have to kill a four-year-old unless that four-year-old knows you. Because they're like, she's so young.

She wouldn't necessarily remember anybody. Right. But even if she saw someone, could she give a real description? Like it's only if she knows your name. I would say I remember hearing something about it's really tough to get descriptions from kids because everyone's big. Yeah. Like you can't get a height because-

You can't get an age, they're all old. Yeah, everyone's old, everyone's big. So yeah, to that point- Yeah. She almost would have had to have known somebody to be a threat. Had a name, yeah. And no one saw any like, unusual cars in the driveway, like maybe they had company or anything. Not in the driveway.

I mean, there's a bunch of cars, like, you know, anytime something like this happens. Right. They're like, people say they saw unusual cars or cars they didn't recognize around and in like the days leading up to the murders, but that might not even mean anything. So in police's search for a suspect, they decide that the first person they need to talk to is that veterinarian that Linda was rumored to be having an affair with. Someone who was obviously known to Linda, but also known to Debbie.

And that's Dr. Fred Leininger. They go and find Fred at his clinic, and he seems to be relatively upfront with them. He says that he and Linda met a few years prior when she brought some of her pets in for a visit after they had just moved to Cincinnati. And he confirms that he had just offered her a permanent part-time position at the clinic just days before she was killed. But then, without being prompted,

he says that he'd actually been to the Bricka's house on Friday, by the way. Two days before their death. And he explains that Debbie, I guess, had left a book at the clinic the last time that she'd been there with her mom and that he had just popped in to return it. But he's like, again, he's like, no, no, no,

I didn't go inside. Debbie was playing out in the front yard, so I just handed her the book, and then I left without seeing either of her parents. By the way, unpropped. Weird. So maybe he's just trying to be helpful, you know, like, I know you're probably going to ask me when I last saw them, so I'm just going to tell you

before you ask, like, fine. But there's something about his behavior that's just a little off. He doesn't seem all that concerned with the idea that his receptionist was just brutally murdered. He's a little aloof. He seems a little uninterested. And then he doesn't ask any questions, like not about the family, not about the crime, nothing. And this sticks out to investigators because literally everyone else they've talked to has asked at least one question, right?

Like, I would have 15. Yeah. Did they ask him about the affair rumors? No, not in this first conversation. This is more of like a casual chat. But they are feeling out the situation. Yeah, see what he even comes forward with. But they're planning to.

Now meanwhile, Linda's parents fly into Cincinnati, and they shed further light on just how rocky Linda and Jerry's relationship really was. They explain that the pair had gotten married about four years prior. According to a 2020 segment, Linda was 19, Jerry was 24, and Linda was two months pregnant with Debbie when they tied the knot. So it had been rocky from the start. I don't know if they would have gotten married had it not been for Debbie, right? But their personalities and interests just didn't mesh at all. A big

recent point of contention had been children because Jerry wanted more kids, but Linda wanted more dogs. Okay. Like go Linda. But sources vary on whether Linda didn't want any other kids ever at all or she just like wanted to wait a few years. I mean, I'm not sure that matters. In that moment, they both did not want the same thing and it had caused them to butt

heads. In fact, her parents say that just a few months ago, Linda had taken Debbie to Florida on this little vacation that was actually what they call a trial separation because things had gotten so iffy or dicey at home. Now, Linda had ultimately decided to stay with Jerry, and while her parents don't know anything about this alleged affair or rumor of an affair, the details that they share make it seem all the more possible to police.

Did Linda ever say anything to them that might like hint at who could have done this? Not that I can tell because it seems like police are still hard up for a good lead, even though neighbors are still, I mean, they're getting like a bunch of tips and stuff, but I mean, I feel like if the family would have pointed them at someone,

like we would have heard something about that. But to go back to the tips, like there are some good ones coming in. Like for instance, one person reports seeing a man walking back and forth the previous Thursday in front of the Brickahome. But you know, at the time they didn't think much of it. And of course now they can't even really describe the guy.

So not all that helpful. Another acquaintance says that Linda had previously worked for another vet that had a history of mental health struggles and had previously been hospitalized for them. So police look into that and they find out that Linda actually didn't used to work for him but his office is two miles away from the Bricca's home. But listen, spoilers all around. I'm just going to tell you now this vet isn't on the short list of suspects.

So I don't think he's even worth spending time on. But there is an interesting tip I do want to spend a little bit of time on from one of the Brickus' neighbors. She says that just after 9 p.m., she had glanced across their yard and noticed that their TV was on. Now, this stood out to her because she can't remember ever seeing their TV from the angle that she is at before, like ever. And it's only now, days later, that she's realizing why she could see their TV from the angle that she is at before, like ever. And it's only now, days later, that she's realizing why she could see their TV,

because she says the only way she could have seen it was if their back door was open. So it's not like through a window that's usually like the blinds are closed, it was because of this open door. Right, she can see their TV now because their door was open, and normally that's not just sitting open. Now she didn't see anyone coming or going but what this does is it helps solidify a possible timeline and a possible point of entry for the killer. So they're thinking that he likely came through the back door shortly after Jerry put the

trash cans out at 9. Now there are a few other interesting tidbits. Again there's a ton in Townsend's book but here are the ones that stick out to me. One person says the brick has definitely kept the missing knife out on the counter, so anyone could have seen it and grabbed it. Another neighbor says that the day before the murders, she'd seen Linda in a car at about like 1 p.m. with a man who definitely was not Jerry,

and she describes this car as light gray or green, some kind of foreign-makin' model. And the driver was white, maybe in his mid-30s, with blonde hair and a long face. And what does Dr. Fred the Vet look like? Uh, Fred was blonde. Fred's 36, but he drove a red car. So, I mean, he could've been driving a car that wasn't his.

The ultimate thing is, I don't think they ever identified this man that she might have been in the car with. So, big mean, he could have been driving a car that wasn't his. The ultimate thing is I don't think they ever identified this man that she might have been in the car with. So, big question mark there. But actually, speaking of Fred, detectives begin hearing reports that Debbie called him Uncle Fred, as though she was super familiar with him, as though she would have recognized him. And I don't know if this has to do with an affair.

I honestly think so. Linda was known to take her pets to the vet at like the slightest sign that something was wrong. Like one of their neighbors says that she had come in several times a week to the vet, even at one point, like several times a day. And so it stands to reason that, you know, she might've brought Debbie if like one of the babysitters

wasn't available or just like, cause. I mean we know she brought her when she left the book that one time. Right. I guess Uncle Fred seems so close. Like even calling him Dr. Fred feels like- That's what I was going to say. That would make so much more sense. Oh, it's Dr. Fred with like the pets.

Yeah. Uncle Fred feels like something else. It does. It's like distinctly different the pets. Yeah. Uncle Fred feels like something else. It does. It's like distinctly different to me. Yeah. There was actually a woman who asked Linda why Debbie called him that, and Linda didn't offer any kind of explanation. She just sort of like chuckled.

It feels like the 60s like stepdad title, right? Yeah. Uncle Fred. I don't know. So not confirmation of an affair by any means, but a little sus. But the investigators aren't letting themselves get tunnel vision. Sure, maybe Linda was having an affair, but was that the motive? One does not mean the other, right?

Maybe, maybe not. Which is why on October 1st, when investigators release a theory, they don't claim that an affair was the motive. They say that sometime just after 9 p.m., the family was probably in their family room watching TV. Jerry took Debbie up to bed, as was their routine, and that's when the killer entered the home. He grabbed the knife off the counter, forced Linda upstairs with the intent of sexually

assaulting her, and then once in the bedroom, he killed her and then he killed Jerry when he tried to stop him, is what they say. Lylea Kaye-Carrie-Murphy Questions. I know, I don't love it. Lylea Kaye-Carrie-Murphy How do they explain the ligature marks? Because that theory doesn't have anybody tied or taped up. Lylea Kaye-Carrie-Murphy Yeah, I don't know if they're thinking like he would have like bound Linda.

But to me, it's like not it's not to sexually assault her. Like, I mean, I know that because that like, that he would have like bound Linda. But to me, it's like not, it's not to sexually assault her. Like, I mean, I know that, cause that's not, we know that's not what happened or it maybe didn't happen. I imagine like, and this goes to the point of like two people, one person. Did he, he's putting Debbie to bed. Did he bind Linda, get her to the room,

waits for Jerry, binds him. But if Jerry is intervening, like wouldn't he be stabbed in a frenzy? I know. And then we come back to the back spatter. Like, if he was intervening, if he was interrupting the assault or murder of Linda, like, and he gets stabbed because he's intervening, that's frenzied, that's back spatter. That doesn't make sense.

The other reason this doesn't work for me is that Jerry and Linda's room was actually, you have to walk past Debbie's to get to Jerry and Linda's room. So if he's putting her to bed... They have to walk past him to get to their bedroom. I know. No. So I don't know why they released this publicly. Maybe they're looking to just keep people talking about this.

Maybe they're trying to get more tips. And maybe it works, like, because more do come in. There's a man that calls and says he was driving by the brick a house at around 1130 the night of the murders. And he says he saw two men and a woman getting into a white or green car. And he says he remembers it because the woman looked frightened. It's dark, it's raining at the time, and the witness was just like driving past, so we didn't really get a good look at any of them. But I don't know, I have a feeling this wasn't Linda, because why, why would the killer take her out of the house, killer or killers, take her out of the house? Like- And then bring her back. Especially if they're thinking everything happened at like nine. This is two and a half hours later. Yeah. I mean, did they check their banks at all?

Like would they be taking her to go get something? Although it's at night. Yeah, 1130. And yeah, I don't know that what the ATM situation was in the 60s. But it doesn't say that they checked. I'm sure they did, right? To like rule out this being like financially motivated. I feel like if they would have like gone to the bank and withdrawn everything, that'd

be something they'd mention at this point. Right. But for some reason, investigators are pretty confident in this sighting, especially because it's partially corroborated by another person who was driving past around the same time. And this person says that they only saw one person, a white man, but the color of the car and the fact that it's parked outside of the brick of home are both the same. But it's great, but not super helpful, right? Like, they can't figure out who they are or why they would have taken Linda if it was

Linda that they took. But they might be one step closer to finding one of the mystery men in their case, maybe not the driver of the car. But they might be closer to finding out who had sex with Linda before she died, or rather, who didn't. Because they find out that the sperm sample, they do test it for a blood type at the coroner's office, and it was not a match for her husband, Jerry. Hmm. We're gonna need a swab from Dr. Fred. Okay, so that doesn't happen.

What? That's not their next step. I know That's not their next step. I know. That's the next step. That's the next step. I know. I don't know. So if you remember, and this actually was an episode with you, it was one I did on the deck, but I think we talked about it.

This deck episode I did on Dana Chisholm was like in the 90s. And even then, the guy who was in charge of the investigations back then, he's like, we couldn't use DNA like a fishing expedition. The only time we could because of the pricing, because of just like the limited availability. It was like very direct comparison. Yeah, it was like, this is our suspect, we're about to go to court, we want to prove this is our suspect. And so that's the only time they would do it.

Like in my mind though, like Fred might be your suspect. Can we just like name him as a suspect to use it and then like it's not then okay He's not a suspect and I get like not having it to be like just in case anyone cut But like there is someone you could direct compare it to who said to have had an affair with her who like is right there It's right there But they don't and maybe one of the reasons that they don't is because right around this time There is someone else that comes on their radar that they seem to be much more interested in.

And it's one of Jerry's coworkers, this guy named Jim Cannon. Now it turns out, Jim and Jerry did not get along. Jim had this tendency to flirt with just about every woman he could, including Linda, which pissed Jerry off to no end. And there's even this one rip, you're gonna die. There's this disgusting story from a former coworker

who says that Jim gave a secretary lingerie as a gift for her birthday in front of everyone. That's Jim. I don't know if I would prefer that he gave the secretary lingerie in private. No, yeah, I guess that's not the scandal spread story. But I don't like that it happened in front of people either. I don't like that it happened at all. Eww.

So Jim is also recently divorced after having cheated on his wife. Surprise from Jim. But it wasn't the racy gifts or the feuding with Jerry that made Detective so interested in him. It was the fact that he showed up outside the Bricca's home the night that their bodies were found. So, the night that the bodies were found, word had spread quickly in the neighborhood and even beyond. This crowd gathered outside of the home,

made up of neighbors, some of Jerry's coworkers, who had heard about the discovery on the radio. And then Jim just suddenly sort of appeared in the crowd. And literally no one called this guy. I feel like no one ever calls Jim. No one's ever calling Jim. So of course, the group is like, hey, where do you come from? And Jim replied that he had just been driving around.

I mean, he might have been going somewhere. But he's like, I was driving around. I was on a nearby road. And I saw the police lights. And I decided to come over, see what the big deal was, not knowing that this house was the Brickhouse. And then he, without prompting, told the group that he'd been on vacation since the previous Friday.

And the people around him were like, cool, cool. Like we didn't ask, we didn't care where you were, but thanks for the alibi, question mark. Oh, and by the way, the road that Jim was driving on when he said he noticed the lights did not have a view of the brick a house so Him seeing the lights seems a little unlikely and like again I go back to like why volunteer your PTO vacation days or whatever your weekend plans when it doesn't matter like nobody asked you if you were here Sunday when they were

Killed Jim. Yeah, this is all strange So add him to the list of people to check out. Though not blood test, I guess. And this list is growing, by the way. It seems like every day someone's calling, telling police to look into this person or that person. Someone's acting weird. Someone has a criminal history.

Someone is seen in the area in the days leading up to the murders, who looked a little sketchy. But every single tip is just a dead end. I mean, early on, Jack Heffron reported for Cincinnati Magazine that neighbors even suggested the Briccas might be the victims of a serial killer, the Cincinnati Strangler, if you're familiar with that story. Because like, so it was around this time, there were seven women who were sexually assaulted

and murdered around the Cincy area. That killer is still on the loose. Locals are like, you know, I mean, you have that going on, this happens. They're quick to think about that. Want to connect those dots. Right. But police, like just as quickly as it comes up, police are like, no, that can't be. Like the MO is completely different here. And all the while, like, investigators like looking at their watch, like, pick talk, they're getting really frustrated with the FBI lab. It's taking

forever. And when results finally come back, it's like not even worth the wait. The lab was able to isolate a few fibers, some hair, some other trace evidence, but they didn't do any further testing, nor did they even try to explain where or whom they all could have come from. So totally and completely unhelpful.

Unhelpful, Yeah, basically. Why is no one looking harder at Fred and Jim? Dude. I mean, there's nothing else. There's no one else. I know. I don't get it. Have we confronted them about any of this?

I mean, I'm still waiting for them to ask Fred about this affair. What's the hold up? I think what they're doing is they're asking around a bit more. I think they're trying to get they're asking around a bit more. I think they're trying to get more background information before they just, like, go at him. They're, like, putting some pieces together. They're trying to figure out if either of them had recent contact with Linda or Jerry.

Like, don't get me wrong, I hate how long this is taking, but you do want to know the whole story before you fully confront someone. Before you go in, like, guns blazing. It's frustrating as hell. But, like, otherwise, if you don't know the answers before you ask the questions, you don't know if someone's lying to you. Right. And there is this one detail that they find out relating to Fred that stands out as they're

doing all this background. It turns out that the Thursday before she died, Linda had called his answering service with an emergency, but she didn't say what she needed him to call her back for, because the woman who answered the phone, like, she took the message, she marked it down for the doctor to, like, come back to, but I don't know if he called her back. I don't know if anything happened. Again, she didn't say what the emergency was.

Now, obviously, we know Linda was, like, prone to calling her vet. Feels like more than most people. So it could have been nothing, but what makes this stand out is that she had never called his answering service with an emergency before. And if she truly had an emergency with one of her pets, she would have just gone there. We know the girl is not, like, above going multiple times a day.

Like, she, like, loves her pets to death, so she would have hurried and taken them there to get help right away. Right. So it does feel off. But at the same time they're learning more about Fred, they do get more tea on Jim. And he's seeming more like a viable suspect too. Because they get this tip from a man who says that he was driving past the plant where Jerry worked and he noticed two men fist fighting in the parking lot. Now he didn't recognize either man at the time, but once he saw Jerry's face in the paper, he's like, oh dude, that's like the guy he was fist fighting with.

Wait, when was this? This was the day before the murders. What? Yeah, and when investigators asked the other employees if they know anything about the physical altercation, a few of them say that they saw some altercation happen. And while they weren't sure who it was, they wouldn't be surprised, they say,

if Jim was involved because he has this super quick temper, especially when he drank. So, investigators finally do go interview him. Finally. I know, I know. So Jim claims that he last saw Jerry on the Thursday before he was murdered. And he states that he was on PTO from Friday the 23rd

through Tuesday the 27th, which investigators can corroborate. Now, while he was off, he says that he left town on Saturday, drove to Indiana where he visited his brother that day, and then his mother on Sunday. And then later that Sunday night, he hung out with his uncle and then went to hang out with some friends until about 11 p.m.

And then afterwards he went back to his mom's house and eventually drove back to Cincinnati on Tuesday. Now when they ask him how he came to be at the Bricca's house on Tuesday evening, he reiterates what he told his coworkers, that he saw police cars, he decided to just check out what was happening. But he also claims that he didn't even know it was the Bricca's house and that he had police cars, he decided to just check out what was happening. But he also claims that he didn't even know

it was the Bricka's house and that he had never been there, which wasn't true. Ugh. Jim had given Jerry a few rides a couple of years prior. Now, is it possible he just didn't remember? Sure, maybe, but like... But still there. Stands out.

So investigators ask him what his relationship was like with Jerry, and he says that their only arguments were about work and that they didn't fight about anything personal so This fight just didn't happen Well, I don't know if they decided all does it matter based on the answer to their next question Which was what car do you drive and when he says he doesn't drive a green or a white car? They like don't care. I'm sorry No, if there was more than one killer he might not have been in his own car

I mean or maybe like I don't know if you're gonna commit a murder. You don't use your own car Yeah, I have all the questions also we like I don't know why everyone's so bought in on this. On this car. I don't know. There's a million other things to follow up on, but they're like, no, this is 1,000% of the car that was there. But let's still not test the blood. So one of the reasons, they basically are like, listen, his alibi is so detailed, maybe he's not a viable suspect.

Okay, but did they check out the alibi? I don't know that. I truly don't know if they're just like, oh, well, you were in Indiana. You must have been. In my mind, I'm like, you took PTO. Like, even if he did, like, it's his mom. It's family. I know.

I know. I'd like to think that they like thoroughly vetted this. I don't know. But I guess knowing that they still have a solid suspect in Fred, I get the impression that they just sort of move on. But at least they don't waste any more time because after talking to him, they do head directly. We're talking same day to go talk to Fred. Now, they start asking him like some real questions this time. Have you ever been inside the Bricka's home? To which he says only once

he had to treat some rabbits and a bird that Linda had. And he claims that the last time he saw Linda was that Wednesday before she died. The one time, the time where she was like at work, super late. That's the night that she stayed and like had a drink with him because they couldn't save one, like a cat or something.

But worth noting, he doesn't like say any of that part. Like he's like, oh, we, you know. He doesn't mention the drink. No, no, no, we, you know. He doesn't mention the drink. No, no, no, no, no. But they don't call him out on it. They're hoping to get more from him. So they ask him when he last spoke to Linda. And he says that Saturday.

That's when he had called to offer to bring her on permanently, which she agreed to. And then they asked him about the call that Linda had placed Thursday night, that emergency one she made to his answering service. agreed to. And then they ask him about the call that Linda had placed Thursday night, that emergency one she made to his answering service. And this is where the tone of the interview just shifts. Because Fred says that he wasn't aware that she had left a message. But then he says he's not sure if he picked up the message or if he replied to her. And then he says it's possible Linda called him and he called her back on Thursday,

but he can't remember her. What? And sure, it's been a few weeks by now. Maybe he just forgot. But he's not bringing up the drink that he had on Wednesday. He can't remember if he talked to her on Thursday. Something is up here. Yeah, and this is someone that,

if she's there at the vet all the time with her animals, it's not just a random patient. Uncle Fred? Uncle Fred, exactly. Like, you would, I would think you would replay the moments that you last saw somebody who had, that you know. Yeah. So, they ask Uncle Fred where he was on Sunday the 25th, the night of the murders.

According to Townsend's book, Fred says that he must have come into the clinic that night. It wasn't open, but they had some animals who needed feeding and general care, and two people previously working for him had quit, so he was the one that had to do it. But that's not totally accurate, because they know Linda wasn't the only new hire there at the clinic.

He had recently hired two other people to help him out with that very thing. This is why you do your background before. So why go on a Sunday night when you literally just got two people to help you out and do that kind of stuff? And investigators ask him that very question and Fred says that like, oh well then I must have been called in. Except there's no record of him being called in, since they don't keep those kinds of records, apparently. And then he says, actually, you know what?

I might have been spending time with my in-laws instead. So this whole... Oh, yeah. Fred's married. So this whole time, he's getting, like, noticeably nervous. And that's when detectives ask him about the nature of his relationship with Linda. And he just straight up shuts down the interview. This is it. They can feel it. So if he won't talk, they're like, okay, let's go talk to this dude's wife.

Still floored that he's married. I know. With five kids, my friend. Oh my god. So they go speak to his wife while he's out of the house, or at least they try to, but she tells them she's not gonna talk to them without their lawyer present, which throws a whole wrench into their plans because now he's got a lawyer and it's refusing to cooperate. Okay. Go with me on this. Going back to the author's idea that there were two killers, is there any world where the wife is also involved?

I thought about that too. There's nothing that points to her being involved. You'll see a lot of rumors online, but like it comes out of nowhere. It's like she's kind of like a spouse is like a natural accomplice. And there's that, like there's nothing else there. Yeah, literally on forums and stuff there are like all these wild accusations about like, it's wild how I can like, people will literally make up conversations that they like could have had and this led to this, this and I'm like, but where did that start? Oh, you made that up.

Right. Cool. So sure, but anyone could be an accomplice. There's nothing to say that it would have been her. So anyway, since they're not talking, they decide to start interviewing everyone in Fred's circle. His in-laws tell them that he wasn't at their place Sunday, did not come for a visit. And a friend says that on the Friday before she died, Linda unexpectedly showed up to this archery range that this friend and Fred were shooting at, and she came over and asked if she could follow them around. And the friend says that Fred seemed really nervous at first,

but then, like, by the time they all finished up, he was kind of fine, they all parted ways, like, the friend left, but, like, Fred and Linda stayed behind. So, he lied about the last time he saw her then? He did. But he lied about the last time he saw her then. He did. But he can lie all he wants. That's not proof that he killed this family.

Now, what would be proof? Evidence? The blood typing. Yeah. Actual evidence. Or putting his prints in the house. Because by the way, they did find unknown prints. Okay, but even that isn't like 1000% though, right? Because like the sexual encounter that Linda had

was a full day before she was killed. Yeah. Fred's admitted to being in the house. It's like his prints being there, him even being- If they were having a stand fair, I know. My, what I don't know about the, I don't know where the prints were found. Like if the prints prints were found in blood, like, that's not something you would get past.

There's a lot I don't know. And if, like, most importantly, I don't even think that they compared him to anything. That's the biggest thing. It's like, let him make up an excuse once he has one to make, right? Or if we should be looking somewhere else. But it just seems like that doesn't happen. And so then even with these like two suspects that they have, things just seem to fizzle out.

I am gonna sound like a broken record. Going back to the two killers idea, if Fred or Jim honestly killed the family, who else? Who else would have helped them? Right, so like if not the wife. If not the wife else would have helped them? Right, so if not the wife. If not the wife, if not them going solo, which seems so improbable, who is the accomplice for either of them? So there's a few names that kind of get thrown around, but there's quite literally zero evidence

that any of them had anything to do with it. I mean, a lot of the theories surrounding their friends feel so thin. I don't even think it's worth spending time on. I personally don't think it's wild to think that it's like one person. I don't know why, but I just don't. But what I do know is that with new crimes happening every day, by October 13th, most of the investigators on the Brickett investigation are reassigned. They really are only able to give attention to the case if a new lead finds them. And thank freaking God,

that's exactly what happens a few days after. That's when the owner of a liquor store that's just a half mile from the family's house calls police and tells them that he had a story from that Sunday night that the family was murdered that he can't stop thinking about. He says that around 10.30 PM, none other than Uncle Fred walked into the store and used the phone.

He described him as looking a little shaggy, like not his usual cleaned up self. He attributed that to the rain, but he said that Fred seemed really nervous and when he dialed, whoever he was calling didn't pick up. Like, he dialed, he let it ring a few times, hung up, dialed again, and the man says that Fred told him it was an emergency, but he didn't give him any details about said emergency.

And he also claims that this whole time, Fred has his left hand, like, firmly in his pocket, and he can see that his right hand is like shaking. And more than anything, despite him being a regular customer, like before all of this, after this weird night where he comes in shaking with an emergency and trying to call someone who would answer, like he never comes back into the store. Why didn't this guy bring any of this up earlier? I know. He said that it had been on his mind, but he didn't think it was very important. But he's only coming forward now because I guess someone had tried to break into his

own house a few nights before and it scared him and his wife so much that he decided he needed to come forward with this story. Someone trying to break into his house reminded him of Fred? I think he's just like thinking of all the strange stuff that had been happening. Like, I don't think he's believing Fred tried to break in. It's just like unsettling. He was, I don't know. Yeah.

I mean, I just got the impression that he had been like eating at him for a while. And this attempted breaking gives him the kick he needs to at least tell police what happened. I don't know. But he has one more thing to add that I think is really important. So he says that he actually passed the Brickus house on his way home that Sunday night, and

he said he noticed a blue car parked in front of their house. Which is different than all the cars that we've talked about before. Yeah. Now, Fred doesn't have a blue car, but he also says it was raining really hard at that point. He couldn't see very well. He's not 100% sure if the description is accurate. But after this, more circumstantial evidence continues to pile up.

For instance, remember the tape that they found on Jerry's face? Uh, no. So it was like when, um, when they were first found, he had some like on his chin or like cheek or something, just a little bit of tape. So investigators do some digging to figure out where this is from. I assume they like don't find any tape in the house that's like that because they really like dive into this. And wouldn't you know it?

It's tape that is most often used in a vet's office. Well if I wasn't convinced before, feels like a good time to test some blood types, people. And this is the first place, like when I, or one of the first places I saw that it mentions him not giving samples. So I don't know if that's been part of the holdup, but I feel like there should be enough for a warrant. If not, I'd feel like I don't understand warrants.

Right. Like there's a lot, like. Especially now with this vet tape situation. Right. So, weeks continue to pass. Police eventually announce that they believe the killer is a white man based on those hairs that the FBI isolated. But, like, that's not really a surprise.

And just like the attempted break-in at the store owner's home, these, like, odd occurrences keep happening around town. Like in December, nine Marlboro cigarette butts are found in a ring around Linda's grave. And that was the same kind that were at the crime scene. Yeah, but to get anything from the cigarettes, you'd be talking about DNA. And fortunately or unfortunately,

depending on how you see it, that is the next thing that they try. In 2002, Brett. What? Yeah, evidence, like nothing happens between them. They can't move the case. There's just nothing. Yeah, so in 2002, evidence gets retested.

They do extract a DNA profile. From what? I don't know, but it's only a DNA profile. From what? I don't know. But it's only a partial profile, not enough to actually, like, put in a database that we would have in 2002 and not enough to get them any further. You can do a direct comparison, though.

You can. The frustrating part is, I don't know if that ever happens with anyone. There is, like, zero reporting on that. And DNA testing, like all of this is something that the author J.T. Townsend has been campaigning for since as recently as 2022. And I'm not even talking just direct comparisons, but for like any remaining evidence to be retested, because, I mean, forget the 60s, technology has come a long way since 2002. We're 20 years out from that plus. So there's no telling what they can do with genealogy,

what secrets that, like, the DNA within this evidence might hold. And unfortunately, I think direct comparisons are gonna be hard because many of the suspects aren't around anymore. I know Fred passed away in 2004. He was found deceased in a hotel room in downtown Cincinnati, and his wife was found with him, barely clinging to life.

She died, ended up dying a few days later in the hospital. And according to a brief note left by the couple, Fred's wife's health was failing. His heart wasn't doing super well. He was depressed over losing a bunch of money a few years before that. So they decided to die by suicide together. So he was 72 and she was 73.

I couldn't find out where Jim is, and maybe it doesn't matter. I mean, maybe there is someone else out there that we should be looking for. Did they do any testing of Fred's DNA after he died? I don't know the law around that, or if they can. Um, but it is infuriating to me that a little more wasn't done. But it does mean that there is still so much hope.

So if anyone listening who maybe is with the agency in Ohio that touches this case or any agency in Ohio that touches this case, this is my reminder to you about Season of Justice. That's the nonprofit I founded that provides grants to do advanced testing in cold cases. The application for that is super quick, super painless. The money goes directly to the third party lab and you can apply at seasonofjustice.org. Hopefully, we'll be back one day with source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. And you can follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast. We'll be back next week with a brand new episode, but stick around for the good segment. So, as you guys may know, October is Domestic Violence Awareness Month. And this month, we actually want to highlight a really cool submission we got from someone

who was inspired by some good we shared in our October segment last year, Ashley. Ashley Slaughter Last year? Have we been doing this segment a year? Oh my god. The good inspiring the good. Let's do it. Ashley Slaughter Yeah.

So this one is from Morgan and she wrote, I just want to come on here and tell you how much this podcast in this community has helped me. About a month ago, the day after my 20th birthday, I finally grew the courage to leave my abuser. From the age of 17 to 20, I was stuck in this endless cycle of what felt like hell. Your podcast speaks about domestic violence quite often. And had I not heard one of the episodes where a mother explained to her daughter that she could always come home no matter what, I was finally brave enough to pack my things and go. I called my dad that morning and he was there within seconds. We loaded all my stuff into his truck and I went home.

Home, home. The smile that was on my face from pure relief, joy, and pride of how strong I was to be able to leave that situation. That smile didn't leave for days. When people tell you the signs and the red flags when it comes to domestic violence, you think, that can't be me, right? And oh my, I wish I would have trusted my gut instinct when I heard others speak about the signs.

I did not and will not become another statistic. I stand strong today and remind myself that it's okay to talk about these things to make others aware of the signs. I would like to thank the podcast and community from the bottom of my heart for the work you guys are doing. Even when you think no one may be listening, we are listening and it is so very, very helpful. Thank you, Crime Junkie. You will forever be in my heart. That's so cool. I think I love that she's talking about the community because they're right. That's not anything that, you know.

We simply gave a voice to another person. And if anyone doesn't remember, it was a story about like a, I think it was a stepmother and her daughter or a mother and her daughter, but they were in the car and it was like an awkward kind of relationship where something was going on. And they had been listening to episodes together and she was like, just so you know, like. Yeah, and she's like, I just chose this one.

I think it was the Susan Powell one for some reason, but she's like, I chose this one. And she's like, you know, FYI. And she's like, I never had a reason to even think. They seem like they had the perfect relationship. For no reason whatsoever, I said this thing. She could always come home and then and then she did and wow yeah and we told that story at the end of our episode on Patricia

Newsome Morgan I am so glad that you're safe and sound and you guys this is what it's all about like we're the ones with the mics in this community but you guys are like what have built it over all this time and like exactly like it means so much more coming from you at some point than it even does from us. So like, I love that you guys are constantly supporting one another, like learning from one another. Like this is the peak.

This is the coolest job in the world. And like, it's all thanks to you guys, Crime Junkies. So stay safe out there and love you. Love you, keep up the good. Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think, Chuck? Do you approve?