Crime Junkie - MURDERED: Lisa Norell

Episode Date: May 13, 2024

When a 15-year-old girl vanishes on her way home from a friend’s quinceañera rehearsal in 1998, a California community holds its breath and hopes it’s a one-off. But when other young women in the community are targeted one by one, investigators have to ask if there’s a serial killer in their midst.If you have any information about any of the cases discussed in this episode, please contact the Pittsburg Police Department at 925-252-4980. Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit: crimejunkiepodcast.com/murdered-lisa-norrellDid you know you can listen to this episode ad-free? Join the Fan Club! Visit crimejunkie.app/library/ to view the current membership options and policies. Don’t miss out on all things Crime Junkie!Instagram: @crimejunkiepodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @CrimeJunkiePod | @audiochuckTikTok: @crimejunkiepodcastFacebook: /CrimeJunkiePodcast | /audiochuckllc Crime Junkie is hosted by Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat. Instagram: @ashleyflowers | @britprawatTwitter: @Ash_Flowers | @britprawatTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF  Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more!

Hi, Crime Junkies. I'm your host, Ashley Flowers. And I'm Brett. And the story I have for you today is about what can happen when an innocent teenage girl unexpectedly crosses paths with someone who is more monster than man. This is the story of Lisa Norrell. So On a Friday night in November of 1998, Minnie Norell watches as her 15-year-old daughter Lisa heads to the Ides Hall in Antioch, California, garment bag and new black shoes in hand. You see one of Lisa's friends is going gonna be having her quinceañera soon and tonight is this rehearsal for the big event.

So as Minnie gets back on the highway for the quick drive home to their house a few miles away in Pittsburgh, I kinda picture her taking a little involuntary sigh of relief cuz reporting suggests that they had arranged for a friend's parent to bring Lisa home after the party. So you know what that means. Like Minnie is officially off mom duty for the next few hours. She gets to clock out. Yeah. Yeah. She was what she wants to watch on TV, take a nice relaxing bath if she is

so inclined. I mean, heck, she might even get a little crazy and go to bed at a reasonable hour, indulge in those little luxuries that moms so often go without. But she ends up waking up a little before 3 a.m. on Saturday, November 7th, feeling a hint of anxiety that she can't quite put her finger on. And I'm sure she starts kind of clicking through things in her mind, trying to figure out why she feels so unsettled. But then it hits her.

She never heard Lisa get home. And I mean, it's possible she might've just been in a deeper sleep than usual, but still, she's not gonna be able to fall back asleep until she confirms that her daughter made it home safe and sound in bed. So she climbs out of her bed and walks to Lisa's bedroom, sure that Lisa is gonna be there fast asleep.

But what she sees instead is an empty bed. I don't think she's able to get in touch with that friend's parents at this point, although I'm not sure why. I mean, it is the middle of the night after all. She might not even have their number. I don't know. So she goes straight to calling the police to report Lisa missing.

And right away, they're on it. No gaslighting mini about how Lisa's probably just a runaway or getting into trouble with friends. Jim Heron Zamora and Rob Selna report for the San Francisco Examiner that investigators don't rule those possibilities out right away necessarily. But they do take Minnie's word that this isn't like her daughter, and they find the circumstances of her disappearance to be concerning from the start. And those concerns only grow as the sun rises and they begin running down the people who had been with Lisa at the party the night before or at the rehearsal the night before. Because the story that they piece together is a little ominous.

Everyone agrees that something happened at that rehearsal between 10 and 11 p.m., something that bothered Lisa enough for her to storm out into the night upset and alone. Now, what that something was is the thing that's up for debate because each witness police talk to seems to have a slightly different account. The East Bay Times reports that, according to her and,

Lisa had gotten frustrated when she couldn't master a certain dance move, but then other reports suggest that she had been upset when a certain boy wouldn't dance with her or that another attendee had grabbed her inappropriately. But on this first day, the why she left didn't matter so much as where she left and went off to. I mean, the thought was that she'd likely tried to make her way the four-ish miles home from the rehearsal. But the only direct route is straight down the Pittsburgh Antioch Highway,

which doesn't seem super safe. Now, I didn't have the time to try to pull up a Google Earth image from 1998, but I read someone else's description of it back then. Students actually from the UC Berkeley Graduate School of Journalism wrote about this case, and they described it as being a, quote, poorly lit stretch with no sidewalk, just gravel on the sides of the road, on one side are fields and on the other side, occasional industrial

businesses, End quote. So it's dark, she could have gotten hit by a car, and it's also kind of remote, isolated even. The random businesses on the side of the highway aren't exactly hopping at 11 p.m. on a Friday night. Yeah, so she's out there totally alone. Yeah, and it's not just the fact that she's left by herself, but witnesses are sparse aside from any motorists who maybe drove, if police can let those people know that they're looking for them and if they remember seeing anything. Yeah. So almost immediately, volunteers begin posting missing flyers while authorities get choppers

up in the air and mobilize a team of ground searchers, including scent-tracking bloodhounds. And pretty quickly, police stumble onto their first major clue on the side of the highway. There is a single black dress shoe. And investigators know that Lisa was wearing casual clothes when she stormed out of the rehearsal. She was wearing jeans, a sweatshirt, and sandals of some kind.

But like I said, she did have her formal quinceañera dress with her, along with the heels that many had gotten for her to go with it. And this shoe is a bad sign, made even worse when they find its match just a few hundred feet away. And then according to some reporting, they find a garment bag that contains her dress. Did the dogs pick up any scent around here? I think the best answer is maybe. So according to that same report in the East Bay Times, one of the dogs acts like he wants to go on the grounds of this business off the highway called Navland. But

there are these civilian pups there basically barking near the property. So they're like, oh, like this isn't about the case. Like he's probably just distracted. And all of this is on the stretch of highway that she would have walked down to get home, right? Yeah. Mm hmm. Are there any like signs of struggle? You said there's gravel on the stretch of highway that she would have walked down to get home, right? Yeah. Are there any signs of struggle? You said there's gravel on the side of the road, anything like that? I don't think so, or if there are, that's not been reported,

nor is there any reporting on just how Lisa's belongings are thought to have ended up where they found them. Because to your point, was there a struggle and she dropped them trying to get away from something, or more likely someone, or were they on the side of the road because they're thrown out of a car? Like, there's not enough for me to know,

and it could be anyone's guess. Now, despite their best efforts, nothing else is found that day. Even as darkness falls that night and the search has to be put on hold, Lisa is nowhere to be found. But word does start to get out about her disappearance, and soon, tips start coming in.

Some possible sightings even. Three different people come forward claiming that they saw Lisa alive and well throughout the day on Saturday. Patrick Hogue reports for the Sacramento Bee that, quote, one person who knew Norell claimed to have seen her on School Street in Pittsburgh at 8.30 a.m. said Schwitters. Two other people said they saw her later in the day in other locations." And Schwitters by the way is Captain Kit Schwitters the spokesperson for the Antioch PD. But this next line of the story is just so frustrating in hindsight it reads quote, though they knew the police were looking for Norell they did not question her about her disappearance.

And the girl that they saw, so maybe Lisa, probably not, is never interviewed or identified, and then none of the sightings are ever verified. In that first week following the disappearance, investigators conduct interview after interview, around 80 in total, including a kid who's identified as Lisa's boyfriend. Although the reporting didn't actually like give this person a name, they just called him Lisa's boyfriend. And this guy doesn't really ever come up again. There's also a quick mention of a boy from the rehearsal party, supposedly the one who'd refused to dance with Lisa, but he just kind of gets this blip

mentioned too and that's it. Now I know, I don't know about them specifically, but I know a few people sit for polygraphs, but there must not be much that comes from those because nothing really directs their search. They just keep spreading far and wide. By midweek, divers get out to search nearby wetlands, according to more reporting from Patrick Hogue. And over the following weekend, a 150-person strong ground search continues.

They've got some volunteers, they've got some law enforcement, the dives turn up nothing, but the scent tracking bloodhounds are out again. And their handlers take note that Saturday when the dogs tried to lead them to the NavLand property again. And listen, it was easy enough to brush off the first time around, but this time the bloodhounds seem even more focused, more intentional. Maybe they weren't just distracted by the other dogs before in that first go around. So they decide they really need to check this out. And it doesn't take long for them to see why the dogs are so interested in that property.

There, lying on the ground with dried blood beneath it, is Lisa's prone body. And get this, she's just laying there, exposed, between Navlans buildings and some parked cars, but somehow no one had noticed her body before the bloodhounds led the searchers there that day. What? I know, I guess there's always the possibility that she hadn't been there the whole time. Maybe her killer had moved her remains, but- But there's blood under her.

Like she's been there for a little bit. She was killed there. If she was killed that night, yes, but I mean, like I can't get over it because they had the aerial searches, right? Like there, you had the dog who led you there the first time and the other dogs just distracted them. I don't know. The part of me kind of wonders a little bit.

To your point about the blood, I don't know how you factor all of that in, but did the person see the searches that were happening? And once they moved on from that area, they put her back there thinking that they weren't. Yeah, I don't know. But I think it's really possible because when the autopsy is performed on Sunday, November 15th, the coroner concludes that she had died of asphyxiation at least three or four days earlier, but it could have been as long ago as the night of her disappearance. So it is possible that she was held somewhere for a few days before she was killed and then

found there. Maybe again, like it doesn't like answer the question, but I think it opens up all of the possibilities of when she could have been there, you know what I mean? Now as far as whether there's any evidence of sexual assault, investigators don't say. But around the time that her remains are found, another witness comes forward, a motorist who says that he saw Lisa the night that she went missing, walking down the Pittsburgh Antioch Highway a little before midnight, sometime within the 11 o'clock hour. And he says that there was another car nearby.

But Charlie Goodyear and Tanya Shevitz report that despite seeing this other car, he wasn't able to provide much in the way of details about it. He just like drove past without even stopping to help or anything. Okay, that's not a great look, but at the same time, how does a grown man offer to help a teenage girl in that situation without being creepy or threatening? Everyone knows that the guy who pulls over and is like, hey, little girl, need a ride?

Like, that guy's a creep. I don't fault him for not stopping. I mean, I think I've seen some of the stuff in the reporting, like, oh my god, this girl was there with this car. But I totally get that. It's the middle of night. It's not like he saw a struggle or anything. So it is a bit of a catch-22. Like, he'd sound even creepier if he did stop and was like, I'm not a creep. Wouldn't want something bad to happen to you out here all by your lonesome. Exactly.

So we don't get much from that guy other than a slightly later timeline. Or not later, just kind of wider. She's still out there walking as midnight approaches. Meanwhile, a second witness comes forward around the same time, also claiming to have seen Lisa on the night that she went missing, also walking down the side of the highway. But according to this witness, Lisa wasn't the only pedestrian out there on that dark, lonely highway, although she may have thought she was. What she likely couldn't see was the man just 50 or so yards away standing right in her path.

According to reporting in the San Francisco Examiner, quote, the man was described as 20 to 30 years old, 5'11 inches tall, clean cut, neatly dressed, and with dirty blonde hair and a heavy build." This witness helps investigators create a composite sketch, which is released on Monday the 23rd. They don't call this guy a suspect, just someone they want to talk to. I mean, I'm looking at this sketch and it's a well done sketch, but it's also a little

bit nondescript, just like the description you just gave. It could be- And it's, again, it's midnight. It's dark. It's also his hair looks really dark and she's saying it's blonde. So I mean, I think you can have a lot of questions about this, but he does look young-ish 20s. Yeah. Anyways, despite pleas from investigators, the man in the sketch doesn't come forward

or identify himself, which feels a little bit suspicious, right? I mean, everyone in the area knows about Lisa's disappearance. It's all over the news. Yeah. And even though this isn't like the most detailed, distinct sketch, like someone has to recognize him or think they recognize him. Yeah. And they do get dozens of people who do call police.

They think that they might know this person. and six detectives were grueling hours running down each of these leads. They even seek out parolees in the area who fit this guy's description. But as November turns into December, they are no closer to identifying Lisa's killer or this guy, whoever he was who was supposedly in her path that night, whether he's her killer or not. So it's a scary time in Pittsburgh. No one can figure out why Lisa was targeted

other than it being a crime of opportunity. So everyone holds their kids a little tighter, afraid that it might happen again. And while I'm sure some call it paranoid, that paranoia was justified. Cause on December 5th, it happens again. The body of another young woman is found in an industrial area in Pittsburgh,

a month after Lisa disappeared, almost to the day. How close to where Lisa was found? It's hard to say exactly. One of the sources said it was a couple of miles away, but then I found this other one that said it was just blocks away. So I don't know for sure. But I mean, it's still close no matter what, right?

But despite the proximity and the similarity of the crimes, there are some major differences. For one, this second victim, identified as 24 year old Jessica Frederick, had been stabbed, which Lisa wasn't. She's also suspected of engaging in sex work, which Lisa wasn't. And Jessica's a full nine years older than Lisa. I'm not sure that they're totally ruling anything out, but Lieutenant Williams Abaknik with the Pittsburgh Police Department theorizes that the dump site similarities may have been almost an intentional red herring to make investigators think that there was a connection

when there wasn't, just to throw off the real, like, killer's tracks. Wait, like, he thinks Jessica was killed just to confuse investigators? No, I mean, I think he's saying that whoever killed Jessica for whatever reason dumped her body in a similar location to confuse them, to make them think that the cases were connected.

Got it. And it seems like investigators actually close in on a suspect in Jessica's death fairly quickly, one with no suspected involvement in Lisa's case. He's a 50-year-old cab driver named Mohammed Ismail Niaz, and he and Jessica have a romantic history. Ryan Kim reports for the Sacramento Bee that when investigators visit his apartment the night her body is found, they found one of the doors ajar. And they say concerned about his well-being or you know, they're again claiming they're concerned about his well-being, the door is conveniently ajar. They go into the apartment. And what they find doesn't look good for Muhammad. Sitting out in plain view, they say they find a bent butcher knife

along with a sponge and a sock that both appear to be stained with blood. So they come back the next morning with a search warrant and seize both those items and send them off for testing. And I'm not sure where Mohammed is while all of this is going down, but one way or another investigators find him. They bring him in for an interview

and the explanation he gives kind of muddles the anticipated results. going down, but one way or another investigators find him. They bring him in for an interview, and the explanation he gives kind of muddles the anticipated results. He says that the knife is bent because he used it trying to cut through some nails. Cut through some nails? That's like the most random excuse or reason ever. I've never heard it.

There's a bloody sponge and sock. I mean, explain that. What, like, is this gonna be ketchup or something? No, no, no, no, it's blood. He've never heard it. There's a bloody sponge and sock. I mean, explain that. What, like, is this going to be ketchup or something? No, no, no, no. It's blood. He's straight up admits that. And worse yet, it's Jessica's blood. Well, his and Jessica's blood, but not from some violent confrontation that culminated

in Jessica's death from them injecting heroin together at his apartment, he says. They had used the sock as a tourniquet and the sponge to then clean up. So these must have been relatively small amounts of blood. Yeah, I don't know for sure. There's nothing like specific in all of the reporting about it. But I do know that both of them have a history of using heroin. That's even how they met at a treatment center like four years before. But Mohammed's saying it doesn't matter. He actually is quick to point them in a different direction.

He tells them that there's someone else who is a much better suspect than he is. Though he doesn't know this guy's name or anything, but he says that one of Jessica's clients had tried to kidnap her the previous month. Apparently this guy got her in his car and tried to handcuff her, but she was able to break free and run.

And here's the wild thing, he's not making this up. Investigators have proof that Jessica had reported the whole thing, though I'm not sure how much they actually looked into it at the time. So at this point, are they considering the possibility that Jessica and Lisa were killed by the same person? No, not really. I mean, have they totally ruled it out? I don't know, but that's not the leading theory here.

Lieutenant Zabaknik is adamant that there's no evidence of a connection, and they're really stuck on our buddy Muhammad and Jessica's case, but again he's got zero connection to Lisa. And so if he's got no connection to Lisa, but he did do Jessica's, they're like, oh, they can't be connected, and they're really thinking that he's responsible for Jessica's case because it sounds like there's a lot of unfortunate coincidences for him, right? Like maybe too many to explain away. So as investigators close in on him in Jessica's case, they are receiving a number of tips about Lisa's, all pointing at a couple of locals with extensive rap sheets. These two are 24-year-old David Michael Hennaby

and a 39-year-old guy named Gary Lee Walton. And both are quietly placed under surveillance once they start getting all these tips. But on December 15th, while they're keeping a close eye on David and Gary, Contra Costa County is hit with a double whammy. First, a 38-year-old woman is found clinging to life in a Bay Point port-a-potty, suffering serious injuries from what turns out to have been a vicious beating.

And by the way, Contra Costa County is where Jessica was almost abducted from. So there's like a little bit of a connection here. Like Jessica, this woman, who's never been named as far as I can tell is suspected of being a sex worker. So she's rushed to the local hospital where they're able to stabilize her and even though she survives she is in bad shape. She's never quite the same. Judith Preeve and Nate Gartrell report for the East Bay Times that when she's asked to describe her attacker, she says he was quote, a Hispanic male driving a dark Monte Carlo, end quote. Which doesn't really sound like the guy the witness saw on the highway the night of Lisa's disappearance.

It doesn't, but that's if the description in Lisa's case was right. I mean, it was nighttime, so who knows? And listen, if things weren't confusing enough, it's not long before the situation becomes even more muddled because before noon that same day, a man picking up an order from a local business stumbles upon another woman's body in the same industrial area. The latest victim is found just behind the Pittsburgh Antioch Highway.

The woman who looks to be in her 20s or 30s is fully clothed. There's some blood on her face, but no indication of how she died. There aren't any obvious injuries. But she's quickly identified as 32-year-old Rachel Cruz. Was she involved in sex work at all? There's no record. She doesn't have a record for sex work related charges or anything.

But her mom tells investigators that she thinks Rachel was engaged in sex work, possibly to help fund her substance use. And when her picture is shown to other local sex workers, they say they do recognize her. Now, her autopsy is performed two days later on the 17th. And Charlie Goodyear reports for SFGate that quote, after an autopsy conducted by the Contra Costa County Coroner's Office, investigators concluded that cruise 32 died from manual strangulation and smothering, end quote. And get this, just about a mile from where her body is found on the Pittsburgh Antioch Highway, investigators find Rachel's purse and her shoes. — Okay, that feels like more than coincidence.

Are they thinking that Lisa's killer also killed at least Rachel? I mean, their causes of death are similar, right? Again, not really. What? Yet, Charlie Goodyear writes in that same piece that although the causes of death are similar, quote, investigators say the two were killed in different ways, end quote. And yet again, Lieutenant Zabaknik theorizes that maybe Rachel's killer tossed her shoes near where Lisa's were found just as a red herring to throw people off.

So he thinks there are three separate killers here. Yeah. Is that what he's saying? He says in that same article, quote, we have three individual homicides that occurred that lead to no evidence that they are connected. We're certainly not ruling out any connection, but they are not leading in the same direction. I get what he's saying. But how plausible is it that there are two separate copycat killers out there mimicking a third killer in this kind of smallish community

and within just a few weeks. I mean, it feels too coincidental. It feels like a Criminal Minds episode. It doesn't work like that in real life, right? I'm no statistician, but it feels almost improbable. Also, who attacked the unnamed victim that survived? Are there four perbs? Are you saying there's still three?

Because they only talk about three, but I'm like- There's also this fourth victim who lived. Who does she belong to? Yeah. Oh my goodness. Now listen, Lieutenant Zabaknik decides to put his theory to the test as investigators are forced to make a bold move. So remember those tips that came in on Lisa's case pointing to David and Gary?

Uh-huh. Well, early on the morning of January 6th, concerned that these men are about to find out that they're under investigation, they basically swoop in and arrest Gary as he's driving through Antioch. Now they don't need to arrest David because he is already being held in the Contra Costa County jail on some gnarly DB charges. Eric Brazil reports for the San Francisco Examiner, quote, According to court records, Hennaby menaced his wife with a pistol during a confrontation at her home November 25th,

1998, struck her on the head and threw her to the floor, hurting one of her knees, end quote. And then he said, and mind you, the wife recorded all of this, so the quotes I'm about to read are something close to verbatim. Quote, you think that when I stabbed you in the neck, it was bad? You just wait.

End quote, you wanna call the cops on me? You're going to die. They're never going to catch me, but know this, I'm going to catch you But here's the catch on this monster David has been locked up since December 4 So he couldn't have been involved in any of the other attacks after Lisa, right? So maybe lieutenant Zabaknik has been right all along

Maybe none of the cases are related after all. And though the timing of it all is a little rushed, investigators aren't about to let that rain on their parade. They hold a press conference that same day where they explain their theory of the case. And let's be honest, like they take a little bit of a victory lap while they're at it.

They say that David was driving Gary's car, not sure why, but Gary was in the passenger seat when they saw Lisa walking alone on the highway. They abducted her, they made a pass at her, and then they killed her when she rejected them. Now this day is a flurry of investigative activity. Not even a flurry, it's a full-on blizzard. They search five houses, they search the same number of vehicles, they conduct 42 witness interviews, and then on January 7th, the very next evening, Gary is released. What?

Yeah, one day after announcing that both men would be charged for Lisa's murder, they completely reverse course. Ray Delgado reports in the San Francisco Examiner that the evidence investigators were sure that they would discover in the course of these searches and interviews, it just doesn't materialize. Lieutenant Zabachnick says, quote, We are disappointed in the last 36 hours with what's happened. But it is what it is. We don't try to manipulate the information. If there's not

enough evidence, then we have to let them go." End quote. But even though they let them go, neither of these guys are ruled out altogether. Although Lieutenant Zabaknik suggests that they may already have evidence implicating David that doesn't necessarily implicate Gary. And they say, thankfully he's locked up so he can't hurt anyone else. But that doesn't mean no one else gets hurt because there is yet another grim discovery made

just outside of Pittsburgh the very next day. In another ditch, in another industrial area, within just miles of the Pittsburgh Antioch Highway, they find the body of another woman, this time a 27-year-old sex worker named Valerie Dawn Schultz. When her autopsy is performed on January 9th, it's determined that she was both stabbed and strangled, although it's not clear which one was the cause of death. Any chance that the weapon she was stabbed with was similar to the one used to stab Jessica?

I don't think so. I mean, investigators seized the weapon that they thought killed her. But actually, speaking of Jessica, in March of that year, Mohamed does formally get charged with her murder. Is he considered a suspect in any of the other cases? I don't think so. They never talk about that at all. And I think one of the major reasons that they're not connecting or can't connect all of them together is that they just don't have the physical evidence of it because investigators end up revealing that none of the three sex worker victims showed any signs of sexual

assault, including no semen for DNA testing. Again, they point out just those, whether that's true for Lisa or the victim who survived, that's not clear. But, I mean, that would have been critical evidence, especially in 1999, which is where we're at in this story. And I mean, they just didn't have it. Now, that same month that Muhammad gets charged, we're talking about March of 1999, there is a scandal that starts reverberating through the community, and it centers around a Contra Costa County fire captain

named Duane Shoemake. You see, in September of 98, Duane had been arrested on charges of repeatedly sexually assaulting two minors. When his charges are quietly dismissed in January of 99, I'm not sure how many people really noticed outside of those directly affected. But fast forward a couple months to March, prosecutors disclosed to the victims' families

that the charges were dropped for a reason, as part of a cooperation deal with Dwayne. Because it turns out that his sister-in-law is also the mother-in-law of one David Hennaby. What? Charlie Goodyear reports for the San Francisco Chronicle, quote, what Shoemake told authorities was that a key suspect in the case, David Hennaby, had confessed taking Lisa, holding her for several days,

and doing awful things to her." End quote. And at first, Dwayne's victims and their families mostly take this information in stride, but month after month goes by, and then no charges are filed against David. So before long, the community is marking the one-year anniversary of Lisa's death, and investigators are still no closer to bringing any charges.

Larry Cook, an attorney representing the mother of one of Duane's victims, says in November that quote, The continued victimization of these girls is the fact that no arrest in the Norell case has been made and law enforcement is unwilling to come forward to account for their actions. End quote. So I understand why they're pissed. They're like, okay, if you're not gonna charge him for what he did to our daughters, so you can get him for murdering someone else, we understand that, but to not charge him

and then not do anything, F that noise, I would be pissed. So one year becomes two and then three and so on and so on. In 2001, the charges against Muhammad, the only charges filed in any of these cases, actually ends up being dropped. And not just that, he ends up getting ruled out as a suspect. That's way bigger than just dropping charges.

Yeah, my source material doesn't detail what led investigators to this about phase, but I mean, I have some thoughts, you know what I mean? Like the whole setup of everything just never quite jive for me. The door was open. We were concerned. I mean, I don't know. I just had this like sneaking suspicion and I might be totally off. It might've been like a technicality or whatever, but they, it's dropped. The theme that I'm seeing, at least with Sus, it seems like they go hard with maybe not quite everything they need.

That's true. That's true. And then having to back off. I mean, this is like the third time we've seen that in these cases. Well, time continues to pass without any progress in Lisa's case, which seems like it's just getting colder and colder with each passing year.

And there's no progress in any of the others either, as far as I can tell. But in August of 2009, a jaw-dropping story hits the news. And not just the local news in Contra Costa County, this story consumes national press as well. And it's one that a lot of crime junkies probably know. It's about the arrest of an Antioch couple named Philip and Nancy Garito.

They're the ones who abducted J.C. Dugard. I mean, crime junkies know this story well because you interviewed J.C. Yeah. I mean, and her story is one that even if you've never heard an episode of our podcast, you'd likely have heard of. Well, long story short, when they get arrested, investigators from the Pittsburgh PD, the Antioch PD, and the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Office are all around. I mean, again, this was big news, nationwide news. So you better believe that everyone in this area knew about it. And so they start wondering if maybe Philip was responsible for Lisa's death.

I mean, actually, they wonder if he was perhaps responsible for Jessica's and Rachel's and Valerie's as well. And the possibility only increases when investigators visit Lisa's mom Minnie, and she tells them that a close relative of hers is Philip and Nancy's next door neighbor. And then investigators find out that Philip may have worked in the area that some of the victims' bodies were found. Captain Daniel Terry of the Contra Costa County Sheriff's Department tells the Los Angeles Times that, quote, several bodies were dumped at an industrial location where the suspect supposedly worked.

And then Minnie says in that same reporting, quote, They said they didn't want to get my hopes up. But this guy was of interest. He said they were going to be in Gorito's neighborhood for days. I am hopeful." But sadly, Minnie doesn't get the answers that she was hoping for. It's not clear if the Goritos are formally ruled out, but no evidence ends up being found to connect them to Lisa's death or the deaths of Jessica, Rachel, and Valerie. And so the cases go cold yet again.

In 2018, the 20-year anniversary of the deaths, the Pittsburgh PD decides to give the case another look, and the lead homicide investigator, Lt. Jacob Stage, takes charge. Now naturally, one of his first moves is to resubmit the forensic evidence for further testing hoping that advances in technology will uncover new evidence. But whatever is found, if anything, doesn't move the investigation along. And so Lisa's case remains unsolved to this day, as do Jessica's, and Rachel's, and Valerie's. Investigators continue to be unsure whether any or all of the cases are related.

Lieutenant Stage at least considers the possibility that they were all victims of a serial killer targeting sex workers and that maybe Lisa was killed because the killer wrongly assumed she was a sex worker too. As the East Bay Times reports, quote, the killer might have just mistaken her age and situation in the dark, but by the time he picked her up, it was too late." End quote. And in that same article, there's actually a staple of the true crime community that pops up.

Most people will know the name Paul Holes. He is the guy often credited with identifying Joseph James DeAngelo as the Golden State serial killer. Well, if you know him, you know that Contra Costa County were his stomping grounds. He was an investigator for them for a very long time and he actually worked these cases. And he says, quote,

I'm convinced that you have at least one serial killer who was at work that killed some of these women, but I can't say that one person killed all of them. I have to remain very vague. We're aware there are some unique aspects in what was done to these women that we don't want released to the public." End quote. So the good news is, is that if Paul Holtz is involved, we know that they've at least

considered investigative genetic genealogy. I mean, he knows it backwards and forwards. But without answers, either they don't have DNA to work with or they haven't been able to hone in on a suspect through genealogy. And so this is where you come in. If you know anything about these cases, all of these cases, just one of these cases, it doesn't matter, please contact the Pittsburgh PD at 925-252-4980. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, crimejunkiepodcast.com. And be sure to follow us on Instagram at crimejunkiepodcast.

We'll be back next week with a brand new episode. The Crime Junkie is an AudioChuck production. So what do you think Chuck? Do you approve? Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo