Crime Junkie - UPDATE: Ellen Greenberg

Episode Date: October 2, 2025

Ellen Rae Greenberg had everything going for her when she was found dead in the apartment she shares with her fiancé. Police are quick to say she died by suicide – despite the 20 stab wounds she sustained. But her heartbroken parents are sure she was murdered and their search for answers has raised serious questions about the investigation.If you or someone you know is experiencing domestic violence, help is available through the National Domestic Violence Hotline by calling 1-800-799-SAFE (7233).If you or someone you know is in crisis or feeling suicidal, please reach out for help by calling the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-TALK (8255), where trained counselors are available 24/7 to provide support. Petition to have attorney general re-open Ellen’s caseJustice for Ellen Facebook page Source materials for this episode cannot be listed here due to character limitations. For a full list of sources, please visit:  https://crimejunkiepodcast.com/mysterious-death-ellen-greenberg/Did you know you can listen to this episode ad-free? Join the Fan Club! Visit crimejunkie.app/library/ to view the current membership options and policies.Don’t miss out on all things Crime Junkie!Instagram: @crimejunkiepodcast | @audiochuckTwitter: @CrimeJunkiePod | @audiochuckTikTok: @crimejunkiepodcastFacebook: /CrimeJunkiePodcast | /audiochuckllcCrime Junkie is hosted by Ashley Flowers and Brit Prawat. Instagram: @ashleyflowers | @britprawatTwitter: @Ash_Flowers | @britprawatTikTok: @ashleyflowerscrimejunkieFacebook: /AshleyFlowers.AF Text Ashley at 317-733-7485 to talk all things true crime, get behind the scenes updates, and more! Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hi, crime junkies. I wanted to bring you some updates on an old case. Lots of you are hitting us up, telling us that you're watching the new documentary that just came out on Ellen Greenberg and asking for our thoughts. We covered it in-depth with tons of original reporting back in 2021. And 200 episodes later, we're bringing it back, but with a twist. At the end of the episode, you're going to hear from Audio Chuck's own Nina Schutzman, who reported on this case. She's going to get you up to speed on everything that has happened between us. us airing that episode and this new doc, because just because we hit publish on an episode

does not mean we stop following a case. This is the perfect catch-up before you dive into the documentary, and I want to hear from you after. The facts of the case in the doc are pretty much the same as we reported on back then, but there's some interesting insights into Ellen's life in the weeks and hours

leading up to her death, and you get to hear from some key witnesses who were in the apartment complex that day. Does it change your opinion at all? Comment if you're in the fan club so we can talk about it, hit us up on social. I want to know your opinion. So let's get into it. This is the mysterious death of Ellen Greenberg. It's late in the afternoon on Wednesday, January 26, 2011, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

Sam Goldberg is getting back to his apartment after a trip to the gym. After a month of snowstorms, the city is in the midst of yet another blizzard, and people aren't leaving their homes unless they absolutely have to. But Sam didn't need to go outside to get some exercise because there's a fitness center on site in the Venice Lofts, this luxury condo building where he lives with his fiancé, 27-year-old Ellen Ray Greenberg. So when he's done working out, he goes back to his apartment and goes to open the front door like normal. But according to Sam, there's like this swing bar lock, like a door latch, secured from the inside so he can't get him, even though he's got his key. So he tries calling and texting his fiancé who should be inside, but she doesn't respond and she doesn't open the door. So eventually, he says he just forces the door open.

At around 6.30 p.m., 9-1-1 dispatch gets a call from Sam. Here is the actual audio from that call, which was provided to us by private investigator Tom Brennan. Help, I need a thing out. I just walked to my apartment, my geopsis on the floor with blood everywhere. What is the address? 4601 Flat Rock Road. Please come. Help.

Now. 4601. Black Rock Road. Is this a house or apartment? Oh, no. Oh, no. It's an apartment. What apartment number?

Please, Harry, please. What do you? She's bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell. She's... No. So you have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help.

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. She, I don't, I can't see anything. She doesn't, there's nothing broken. She's bleeped, Ellie. You don't know where she's bleeding from.

Can't tell what the blood's coming from? It's, I think her head. I think she hit her head, I think. But it's not everywhere. Okay. She might have fallen. Do you know what happens? She, she may have slept his blood on the, on the table.

Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. Philadelphia's fire department 842 with the address. 4601 Flat Rock Road, please, Harry. 4601 Flatwap? Yes. What's wrong?

Mike, I just, my, I went downstairs to go work out. I came back up, the door was lashed. My fiance's inside. She wasn't, she wasn't answering, so after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor, blood. She's not, she's not responding. Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down and I need you to look at her chest. I don't think she, I really don't think she is.

Listen to me, someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back? She's on her back. Okay, look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down. I don't see her moving. Okay, do you know how to do CPR? I don't. Okay, I can tell you what to do, okay, until they get there. I want you to keep her fed on her.

Oh, God. Hello? Yeah, hi, okay. Are you willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they get it? I have to, right? Okay, so get her flat on her back, bear her chest, okay? You want to rip her shirt off. Oh, shit.

Okay. You make the deal down by her side. Oh, my God. Allie, please. Listen, listen, you can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not. I'm trying not. Her shirt won't come off.

It's a zipper. Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. Where? She fell in a knife. Oh, no. her night sticking out. Her what?

There's a night sticking out of her heart. Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Okay, so I'm just going to just let her out here now. I mean, what do I do?

No, I mean, you can't, if the knife is in her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time. Oh, no. Oh, my goodness, okay. Police with shopperator. Is someone coming here? Yes, they are. You said 4601 flat rock, right? Yes.

Okay, someone's on the way, and the knife is still inside? Wait, is there what? The knife is still inside of her? Yes, I didn't take it out. Was it her chest or what area is it? It's in her chest. It looks like it's right in her heart. Okay, someone's on the way out here, okay?

Just get to- Oh my God, oh my God. How old is she? She's 27. 27, and there's no sign of life at all? No, no, please don't be. What? Been turned to her arm and tell me she was finds the pain. She's, Ellie. She's not, her arm and her hands are still warm. I don't

if that means, but there's blood every, I mean. I know, but you can't, and the knife is still inside of her. How far? Can you see how far it went in? It looks pretty deep. Okay. It looks three, and it's a long knife. Don't touch anything, yeah, don't touch anything, okay? I'm not touching anything. This is, I can't believe this, though. No, wait, it was just you there with her? We, yeah, we're the only one's here. And she ran in the door, you said latched it shut? No, no, I, I went downstairs to work out, and when I came back up, the door was latched. Like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, you know, it was locked from the inside,

and I'm yelling, and I saw it was, you know, yelling into? No, no, no, no, no, no, no sign of a break-in? No, no sign of a breaking at all. I mean, there will be when you get here, because I had to break the latch, but to get in. Okay, 4601 flat rock, and this is a house. Right? It's an apartment. Fire record apartment.

Okay. Oh, my God. Oh, my God. All right. Thank you. Bye. According to an investigation report from the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's office, when first responders arrive, they find Ellen in the kitchen, which is just

inside the entrance of the apartment. Now, Sam told 911 that she was laying on her back. But apparently, she's more like sitting on the floor kind of a little. slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets. She's fully dressed in a zip-up hoodie, t-shirt, sweatpants, and ugg boots. She's still holding a white towel in her left hand, and her right hand is closed in a loose fist, and just to the right of her, there's a pair of eyeglasses on the floor. There are rips and tears in her shirts that match up with multiple stab wounds on her chest,

and like Sam said, a knife is still lodged in one of them, a little bit to the left of center of her chest. There's blood on her neck and head, on her hand, on her clothes, even on the tops of her boots and on the sole of her right boot. It's clear to the paramedics and police that nothing can be done to save her. So Ellen is pronounced dead at the scene at 6.40 p.m. When investigators take a closer look around, they notice that on the kitchen counter next to the sink, there's a knife set. You know, one of those blocks that comes with some utensils. And basically, it's turned on its side with two knives from the set spilled over into the sink. And based on the scene, it appears that at the time, right before Ellen died, she had been making a fruit salad. Because according to

reporting by Stephanie Far for the Philadelphia Inquirer, there's a strainer on the counter filled with, like, blueberries and an orange, which seemed to be freshly sliced. So she could have been handling the knives as well. Right. Now, there are a couple of drops of blood on the countertop above her body. But it doesn't look like there's any blood on the knives in the sink. In fact, the blood is pretty much contained to just that corner of the kitchen where she's like slumped over. As investigators look around the two-bedroom apartment, they notice that everything is clean and well kept. Nothing seems to be out of place and it doesn't look like anything's been stolen because there are still valuables in the apartment, including three laptops, Ellen's purse,

and her engagement ring, which, according to the family's P.I. Tom Brennan, she wasn't wearing at the time. Homicide detectives from the Philadelphia Police Department don't see any signs of a struggle, not in the kitchen or anywhere else. According to the M.E.'s report, the inside lock on the front door, which again is like a common latch door guard, is broken with the screws on the door loose. It says, quote, obviously forced in when in a locked position, end quote. Which that would make sense because Sam already said that he had to force his way in, right? Right. So it's not like it's an intruder. It was just Sam trying to get into his place.

Yeah. And there's only one other way in or out of the apartment. And that's this sliding door that leads to a little balcony type thing. I mean, it's really more like a ledge with a railing because Ellen and Sam's apartment is on the sixth floor. So again, even though they have that, it's not likely someone got in that way. Plus, again, even if you have a Spider-Man like scaling the place, There was actually fresh snow outside. Remember, this is a blizzard.

And so there's snow on the balcony ledge that hasn't been disturbed. But there's no tracks. There's no footprints, nothing. Now, back inside the apartment on a nightstand in the main bedroom, investigators find three medications prescribed to Ellen. They find Xanax, Kalanapin, and Ambien. And they've all been prescribed by a psychiatrist named Ellen Berman. Police also find a notebook in Ellen's purse where she had to track her state of mind

while taking the various medications. Now, the last entry is from 10 days earlier, although I'm not sure what it said because it's not in any of the reports. An investigator from the medical examiner's office gets to the apartment around 8.30 p.m., two hours after Ellen is pronounced dead. And he notices that she doesn't have any injuries on her hands

or her wrists or her forearms. So basically no defensive wounds. Right, nothing that looks like defensive wounds to them anyway. Okay, and obviously they called time of death at what you said, 640, but can they determine when she had actually died? Well, the report doesn't say anything about the potential time of death. But, I mean, based on what Sam tells detectives, which is that he last saw Ellen alive at 445 before going to the gym. And then again, we know he's breaking down the door at 630. We're looking at like a small window of time.

Yeah, like less than two hours. Yeah, and honestly, probably even less than that because you have to imagine, again, he was like banging on the door. texting her and calling her, he says, before then, so it could be even smaller than that. So police want to know everything Ellen did leading up to that small window. And what they learn is that she had gotten home earlier than usual that day from her job as a first grade teacher. They had gotten off early because of the snow, basically the entire, like, Philadelphia public school district had been dismissed around noon that day.

And according to what Sam tells them right there at the scene when they first pull him aside to get his story, Ellen was home when he went down to the fitness center. at around 4.45 p.m. And he says that he stayed there for like half hour or maybe 45 minutes, and then he went back upstairs where he found himself locked out. He tells investigators, you know, he knocked on the door, he called and texted her to let him in, but she didn't answer. And that's when he knocked down the door and called 911. Well, police had found Ellen's cell phone in the master bathroom. And so they decided to check her activity log to see if it matches Sam's story. Though she had sent her last text around 3.47 p.m. to a friend of hers, the police do see the incoming missed calls and texts from Sam who sent her nine messages over a half hour from 532 to 5.54 p.m.

They're actually detailed in the investigative report I mentioned. And Britt, I'm going to have you read them for us. Okay. And they're each like these really short one-line texts, but I'll just read them in order, okay? Hello? Open the door. What are you doing? I'm getting pissed. Hello? You better have an excuse.

What the fuck? Ah. You have no idea. So on its face, Sam's story seems to be checking out, at least in regard to him texting her. But police want to talk to other people, namely Ellen's neighbors. Venice Lofts is generally a safe place to live. I mean, it has surveillance cameras, there's a security guard in the lobby by the main entrance, and residents use a key card system.

Neighbors of the couple tell police that they didn't hear any commotion that day, no loud noises, no arguments, nothing. So when looking at all of this, this is what investigators see. Ellen has no defensive wounds, and she was reportedly alone in the apartment with the door locked from the inside. So by that very night, police come to their conclusion. Ellen died by suicide. Wait, has the medical examiner even done an autopsy at this point? I mean, I at least have not heard of many suicides where the person has multiple stab wounds.

No, so the autopsy has not been conducted at this point. So did they find a note or anything that made them like double down on this whole suicide theory? Nope, there was no note. And at this point, it seems like all police know is that, Ellen had been prescribed anti-anxiety medications. But again, I don't know what that journal of hers said if it had something in it that made them kind of like go down this path. I don't know what specifically Sam told police about Ellen's state of mind in this day or leading up to it. But what I know is that based on the medical examiner's report, Sam did stay at the scene with some of his family members and friends after finding Ellen.

And at some point, police do take him down to the station for a more formal interview. which, by the way, he has a criminal defense attorney with him while he gives a statement. And it's around that time that Sam's dad calls Ellen's parents, Josh and Sandy Greenberg. And as Sandy told us, this is the moment their entire world went dark. He said, something terrible has happened to Ellie. And I said, well, what do you mean? He says, well, we don't know. I said, well, where's the ambulance?

and there's a long pause and I was trying to find my voice because Josh wasn't standing right next to me. He was, you know, in another room. And I'm like, Josh, pick up the phone, pick up the phone, pick up the phone. And they said there is no ambulance. And I still didn't register with me. We really didn't even know what happened other than they're telling us our child is gone. As if the death of your only child is not heartbreaking enough, Ellen's parents can't even get to their daughter that night. It is snowing too hard for them to make the two-hour drive to Philadelphia from where they are in Harrisburg, Pennsylvania. Early the next morning, this is now January 27th, Josh and Sandy speak with the medical examiner's office over the phone. Sandy tells

investigators that she last spoke with Ellen yesterday at around 7 a.m. and Ellen was on her way to work, They had a normal conversation, and Ellen didn't give the impression that anything was wrong. But Sandy and Josh also say that they knew their daughter was struggling with something. Recently, Ellen had been feeling anxious. She'd been feeling insecure and unsure of herself, which was not at all like the bright, hardworking young woman her family knew her to be. I didn't know what was wrong with my daughter. I didn't know something was different. Not long before her death, Ellen had told her.

her parents that she wanted to go home to Harrisburg. Like for a visit or something more permanent, like moving back? Yeah, that isn't totally clear, but she did tell her parents that her wanting to come home had nothing to do with Sam. She actually said it was because of work. And Ellen had been teaching for a few years at this point. And as much as she loved the kids, she said that she just wasn't happy at the school. She was stressed out.

She was overwhelmed, which I know enough teachers to know that the way they're treated is true crime story in its own right. So, yeah, I get it. Yeah. Now, Ellen's parents didn't want her to just up and leave her first big, real job. Her dad was worried that it would mess up her future career prospects. So Ellen made a deal with them and agreed to see a psychiatrist that Dr. Berman before making any major decisions. And they figured, you know, this way, whatever she ends up doing, she will at least have talked it out with someone and like really given it some serious thought. If she moved, though, what would that mean for her and Sam? Like, was she planning on leaving him or?

No, like I said, she said that this was all work-related. So despite telling her parents that she wanted to go back to Harrisburg, there's no indication that Ellen was planning to call off her wedding. I mean, it was still set for that upcoming August. Literally, I mean, save the date cards had gone out in the mail days before this incident. And Ellen had her wedding dress and everything. Ellen's parents tell the medical examiner's office that the relationship between Ellen and Sam seemed good to them.

They had no concerns. They didn't know of any physical or verbal abuse. I mean, Ellen certainly had never mentioned anything to them. And Josh and Sandy had even taken the couple on vacation to St. Kitts just a month earlier in December 2010. And as the medical examiner's report goes on to say, Josh and Sandy said that as far as they know, Ellen had never attempted to take her own life and had never even expressed any thoughts of making that decision. Although, even though that's in the report, Sandy says that. Now, she doesn't remember the topic of dying by suicide even coming up during this conversation. To say this was out of left field and unexpected would be a gross understatement.

But it's about to get even more bizarre. Dr. Marlon Osborne, an associate medical examiner, starts Ellen's autopsy at around 9 a.m. that day. And what he finds changes the course of the investigation. As he's conducting the autopsy, Dr. Osborne sees that she doesn't take. just have multiple stab wounds on her chest. According to the autopsy report, there are 10 more stab wounds on the back of her neck, another in her abdomen, and a big gash on the back of her head. Wait, and no one at the scene saw any of the wounds to the back of her body?

What? Yeah, it appears that way because there's no mention of them in the initial scene report. Now, some of the wounds are shallow, like really shallow, just pull. 0.2 centimeters deep, which for comparison is basically the size of like a pencil point. And that actually includes most of the wounds on the back of her neck. But others are much deeper. The final blow, the one that actually killed her, was the stab wound to Ellen's chest, where the knife is still embedded four inches deep.

Altogether, Dr. Osborne finds 19 stab wounds and the large gash. And here's what's extra interesting. The knife in Ellen's chest has a five-inch serrated blade with a five-inch handle, and it's from the knife set in their kitchen. And that's super confusing to me because in the autopsy report, Dr. Osborne describes all of the wounds, even the final blow, as having smooth edges. What? Yeah, but there's something else the doctor notices during the autopsy, mostly because they're impossible to miss. There are a bunch of bruises on Ellen's body on her. her arms and her legs and her wrists, her abdomen, and they're all in different stages of healing.

So that means that the bruises aren't from just the time she died. They're from a bunch of different times, like over the course of days or weeks. Exactly. The Emmy finishes up the autopsy at around 11 a.m., and he makes his ruling. Ellen's death is a homicide. And this is probably not welcome news to the police. because as court records show, they had already allowed the crime scene to be compromised beyond repair. You see, the same day as the autopsy, a relative of Sam's had called the Venice Lof's property manager and asked if they could go inside the apartment and get some stuff for Sam for Ellen's funeral, you know, like clothes, photos, things like that.

According to a statement from the property manager, she checked with police. least to make sure that this would be okay. And they basically told her, well, there aren't any restrictions. It's not a crime scene. So yeah, it's fine. Do whatever. What? Yeah, but the property manager like pushes back a little. Like, are you sure? Even to the point where she's like, it didn't seem right to have people in there when there was literally still blood all over the kitchen. Yeah. So she asked police, like, what do I do about that? And they told her that, you know, that's not our department's responsibility. Like, basically, people have to handle cleaning up crime scenes on their own, so they recommended a cleaning service called crime scene cleanup.

Pretty straightforward, cool. Before letting anyone in, the property manager had a video recording made of the apartment, like basically the condition it was in as like legal protection for Venice lofts against claims of stolen items or damage. Then she booked the service, which sent people to do what they're hired to do. They cleaned up a crime scene. And when they were done, the property manager told Sam's relatives they could come in. Here's Sandy Greenberg again.

Sam's cousin and uncle went back into the apartment. And they removed Ellen's engagement ring, her handbag, the car keys, her two computers, her cell phone. What? Why were they allowed to take all of Ellen's stuff? Well, so the property manager is in the apartment when Sam's relatives are there. But even if she knew what they were taking, which I don't even know if she did, I don't think she could have done anything.

Like, there are no police there saying, Like, hey, don't let them take stuff. Like, they specifically knew they were coming in. Well, and assuming, like, these are Sam's relatives, he sent them maybe with a list. Like, they're in getting what they're supposed to get. Yeah, and she's the property manager. I argue. Yeah, she, like, this isn't her job to, like, worry about this.

She's just making sure nothing happens to the apartment. So, according to CBS Philadelphia, when police realize that they're dealing with a homicide, they get a search warrant and go back to the apartment to look for evidence on Friday, January 28th. But by that point, I mean, they're looking over a crime scene that was literally professionally cleaned and sanitized. And items that could be really important have been removed by the family of the victim's fiance. I mean, yeah, they're practically looking at like a model apartment right now. Now, January 28th also happens to be the day of Ellen's funeral and Sam's birthday. Ellen's family is Jewish and traditionally in the Jewish faith, burials take place as soon as possible after,

death. Her service is held at Bethel Temple's sanctuary in Harrisburg. Ellen's cousin, Rhett Schwab, told us that he will never forget that day. During the funeral, Ellen's father made a speech and announced to the audience that, for those who haven't heard, the Philadelphia police just determined that the manner of death was in fact a homicide. It was like hushed whispers and everyone staring wide-eyed at each other, I'm sure what to say. After the funeral, everyone goes back to Ellen's grandmother's home, and it seems like, based on everything our reporter Nina learned from interviewing the family, this is where the relationship between Ellen's parents and Sam and his family starts to really fracture. At one point, Josh, her dad, says to Sam, you do realize that you're the prime suspect. What was Sam's reaction when Josh said to him, you know, you're the prime suspect?

He started crying. He was in one corner of the room, and he moved over to his mother, and she's comforting him, and he's paring on. After that exchange, the Goldbergs don't join Josh and Sandy to sit Shiva, which is a Jewish tradition that takes place after the funeral when the family stays home and people visit and comfort them. But the Shiva for Ellen hasn't even started before police start to downplay the medical examiner's homicide determination.

The day after the funeral, a lieutenant tells the Philadelphia Inquirer that evidence had surfaced, which made suicide more likely, and that detectives are looking into some, quote, mental issues that Ellen may have had. What is he even talking about? And, I mean, don't even get me started on the incredibly insensitive way to speak about someone who might have been struggling with their own mental health. He doesn't say specifically what he's talking about that's leading him to this conclusion. What I do know from a police report is that on that same day, Saturday, Sam's Uncle James, who at the time was a prominent Philadelphia attorney, brought detectives the laptops and cell phone that they had taken from the condo. And by this time, investigators had spoken to Ellen's psychiatrist, Dr. Berman, and they'd subpoenaed her treatment records.

But Dr. Berman told investigators that Ellen was a new patient who had come in for like three recent sessions after dealing with severe anxiety for a couple of months. And Ellen had told Dr. Berman that she was having trouble at work, she was feeling pressured, she was feeling overwhelmed, but she wasn't having thoughts of taking her own life. And in those sessions, Ellen had never said anything bad about Sam. She told Dr. Berman that he was wonderful, and the psychiatrist noted that Ellen smiled when she talked about him. Ellen also had denied that Sam was verbally or physically abusive. The psychiatrist prescribed Ellen medication, which she was. was kind of uneasy about taking. She first tried Zoloft and then switched to a low dose of Xanax.

And when those didn't work, Dr. Berman put her on Ambien and Kalonopin to just help her get some sleep. A few weeks after her death in February, Ellen's toxicology report comes back, showing that she did have low doses of colonopin and trace amounts of Ambien in her system, just like she was supposed to. And the toxicology didn't show any signs of the Xanax or the Zoloft. so she wasn't mixing medications or over-medicating, but when investigators look into the medications that were in her system, both do list suicidal thoughts and behaviors as potential side effects, which only bolsters the police's theory that Ellen did this to herself. And they think that even more when some of the physical evidence comes back.

According to an article on penlive.com, an analysis of the bloodstains on the knife and Ellen's clothing only turn up her DNA. Okay, but none of that explains how Ellen could have stabbed herself in the back of the neck and head so many times. So I guess the theory is that she just reached around and did it? I mean, I haven't seen anything showing that the angles of Ellen's wounds are like 100% physically impossible for a person to self-inflict. But the angles aren't even really the main issue. Dr. Osborne noted during the autopsy that there was a cut to Ellen's Dura, which is the protective covering

around the spinal cord? What he wasn't sure of is whether Ellen's spinal cord itself had been injured, which is obviously a huge deal because if the spinal cord was injured by the stab wounds to the back of Ellen's neck, the question becomes, would she have been able to keep stabbing herself? Oh. If she was incapacitated, then obviously someone else delivered that final blow to her chest. Yeah, I hadn't even considered that. So what did the police do with that information?

Well, according to the reporting by Stephanie Farr, detectives suggest hiring an outside neuropathologists to look at a portion of Ellen's spinal cord and figure out the answers to those questions. So Dr. Osborne takes the spinal cord to Dr. Lucy Rourke Adams, a consultant for the medical examiner's office. And Dr. Osborne says that Dr. Rourke Adams does a quick examination, basically an informal thing, like, you know, one doctor's saying to another, hey, look at this and tell me what you think. Like, I would ask a coworker to proofread an email for me. Yeah. I mean, if this is such an important part of the case, why didn't they have her do like a more formal, thorough official exam? Well, Dr. Osborne says that he leaves the decision of what further testing needs be done to the consultants.

So basically he's saying, like, if Dr. Rourke Adams didn't suggest further testing, like, that would be it. Like, he was going to show her and then she can decide, can I tell on the spot, do I need more? Right. Like, she would look at it and be like, no, there's going to be an issue. I should do something more or it's not a big deal, let it go. Yeah. And ultimately, he says that Dr. Rourke Adams did not find any defect of the spinal cord. He says that she does confirm that the dura was cut.

And while it's possible Ellen would have decreased sensation, she wouldn't necessarily lose her motor function. So she would have or could have been like numb, but still able to move around and step herself again? Potentially, yeah. I mean, that's what Dr. Osborne says was, relayed to him by Dr. Rourke Adams. Now, according to the Philadelphia Daily News, it's rare that the police department disagrees

with the medical examiner's office about someone's manner of death. And not long after Dr. Osborne's visit to Dr. Rourke Adams, a meeting is held in his office to discuss Ellen's case. Two police officers are there, along with Dr. Osborne, the chief medical examiner Sam Galino, and a representative from the Philadelphia District Attorney's Office. We don't know when exactly this meeting took place because according to court records, both doctors Galino and Osborne say they don't remember. Dr. Galino says that he's not sure who called the meeting, but it wasn't him. Dr. Osborne says he thinks Dr. Galino called it.

And it doesn't seem to be officially documented anywhere. The circumstances are just odd around this. And the reason for the meeting is even weirder. It seems that this group was brought together in an effort to change Ellen's manner of death from homicide to suicide. What's even stranger is that Dr. Osborne says that up until that point, he had never met with the police and the DA's office to talk about changing someone's manner of death from homicide to suicide. In this meeting, police say that they have something interesting to share, which they say helps prove Ellen's death. to be suicide. They tell Dr. Osborne that someone else was with Sam Goldberg when he forced the door open

and found Ellen dead in the kitchen. On the night of Ellen's death, a man named Phil was on duty as a security guard in the lobby of the Venice Lofts. And according to police, when Sam couldn't get into the condo, he went downstairs and got Phil, and Phil went back upstairs with him, and he was there when Sam broke in. And how do police know this? Like, did Sam tell him this information that night or did he tell them later? So it's not totally clear because we don't have access to any of Sam's verbatim statements.

But all we know is at some point, Sam told police that Phil was with him when he found Ellen. Again, I don't know if it's right there at the scene that night. I don't know if it's later at the police or what. But the information got conveyed to police at some point. Yeah, and we know that through these records about this meeting. But to detectives, this backs up Sam's story that Ellen. Ellen was alone in a locked apartment at the time she was stabbed. Now, I don't know if Dr. Osborne knew about that third-party witness being present before this meeting with investigators.

There's no mention about this Phil guy in their earlier report from the medical examiner's office. So, again, I would assume not, but I don't know for sure. But within a week or so of this meeting, in early March 2011, Dr. Osborne notifies the police department that he is now declaring Ellen's manner of death. suicide. I guess I just don't understand, like the evidence, her body, what you as a medical examiner are supposed to be going off of, told you it was murder. How can you just change that based on some circumstantial stuff around her case, brought to you by the police who, this isn't their job. It's your job to determine it. Yeah, like you said, I feel like the most honest answer is the one that you came to without any outside influence. But I mean, I have heard that it's not just an

autopsy that determines the manner of death. Like, for instance, if a person is found with a gunshot wound to the head, like, you might need the police investigation to find out if it's a homicide or suicide, but I'm not an Emmy. I don't know. But there was already a ruling, and then the police were like, but what about this? And slid something across the table. Yeah.

Oh, I don't like this. Now, for many of the people following Ellen's story, that's that. Another tragedy in a city that's seen plenty of them. But for the Greenbergs, who, by the way, find out about this ruling being changed to suicide through media reports? For them, this is just the beginning. Because after their daughter's death, the Greenberg start hearing some disturbing things.

Like, maybe Sam and Ellen didn't have such a perfect relationship after all. Over time, her friends told me that her relationship had changed with Sam. Ellen, do you want to go have Chinese food tomorrow night? Let me talk to Sam. Ellen, do you want to go out tomorrow and see a basketball game? Let me talk to Sam. In other words, Sam was in control. And that wasn't like that Ellen her parents knew.

Josh and Sandy had always admired how confident and gutsy their daughter was. Ellen was her leader, and she accomplished things. She got two master's degrees while she was working all that time. Ellen met Sam, a TV producer for NBC. sports on a blind date back in 2007. They were set up by a friend's mother, and Ellen's family says that she was head over heels for him. They moved in together after a couple of years of dating, and when Sam proposed to Ellen

in June 2010, she was thrilled. As far as Josh and Sandy knew, Ellen was happy with Sam. But now they wondered what was real, and they started thinking, what if Ellen was just using her job as an excuse for her anxiety? A reason to come home. They were also faced with what they perceived to be strange behavior by Sam and his family after Ellen's death. They don't know why Sam's uncle took Ellen's personal belongings out of the apartment. According to Tom, the family's PI, the claim was that they had taken the stuff for, quote, safekeeping.

But Sam's family didn't give Ellen's belongings to Josh and Sandy at the funeral or even mention that they had them. And the day after the funeral is when Sam's uncle brought the laptops to police. And when the Greenbergs do finally get their daughter's stuff back, they find something in Ellen's purse that catches their attention. It's a gas station receipt from the day Ellen died literally hours before at 1.26 p.m. And so they wonder, why would Ellen bother topping off her gas tank if she planned to take her own life just a few hours later? Now, Ellen had been telling everyone that she was stressed and anxious because of work,

And, in fact, teachers were supposed to turn in their students' grades on the very day she died. Oh, so she was, like, on deadline, too. Yeah. But when a new teacher takes over Ellen's first grade class, she apparently finds everything in perfect order. Like, lesson plans are ready to go. Records are super organized, which, again, doesn't mean that Ellen didn't feel overwhelmed or anxious at work, but she seemed to be on top of everything. Okay, but Ellen might not have been planning to do anything when she gassed up her car. I mean, choosing to take your own life.

can be a really impulsive decision. And with the organized schoolwork, just because she completed it, doesn't mean that it didn't stress her out to do it. I mean, I get like that all the time. Or maybe it was just one more sign that she was getting her affairs in order, making sure nothing was left undone for her kids.

It could really go either way. Yes, either way is absolutely possible. But as time passes, Ellen's parents uncover more details that they think called the suicide ruling into serious question. There are just too many loose ends, too many things that don't make sense to them.

So the Greenbergs decide that if authorities won't help them get to the bottom of things, they're going to start their own investigation. I didn't have it easy in the beginning. I had a very rough time. But once I made up my mind that I want my daughter's name cleared and I need to, I'd really like to know what happened. Eventually, Ellen's parents get caught.

copies of the autopsy, crime scene photos, and the Emmys investigation report, which they send to a well-known forensic pathologist. This guy named Cyril Wecht for an independent review. Dr. Wecht shares his findings with the family in January 2012, a year after Ellen's death. In his report, he notes that the multiple stab wounds to the back of Ellen's neck and the lower head were not likely self-inflicted, especially the ones that were in different directions. He also says that victims of suicide rarely stab themselves through their clothes. Overall, his opinion is that Ellen's manner of death is, quote, strongly suspicious of homicide, end quote. So finally, a professional is validating what Josh and Sandy have been thinking all along.

And the Greenbergs are hoping that Dr. Wecht's report can help get Ellen's case reopened. So they hire a lawyer to help them move things along. In that spring, they get a meeting with the Philadelphia DA's office, but unfortunately nothing comes of it. Eventually, that lawyer stops representing them and another lawyer joins their cause, Walter Cohen, a former attorney general in Pennsylvania who takes the case pro bono. Their PI, Tom Brennan, who had 25 plus years of law enforcement expertise under his belt, also offers his service for free. And it's Tom who raises the theory that Ellen might have been killed in what's known as a blitz attack. That's when a victim is caught by surprise and doesn't have time to defend themselves, which Tom says would explain Ellen's lack of defensive wounds.

So with their help, Josh and Sandy file a public records request for the police case file. But even though the case is considered closed, Tom says police won't release the records. Instead, the Greenbergs are allowed to go look at some records in the department, but they can't make copies, they can't take photos. And truthfully, they don't even really know what they're looking for. Over the next few years, they hit roadblock after roadblock. And then in 2015, a Philadelphia homicide prosecutor named Guy D'Andrea agrees to take a look at Ellen's case file after an acquaintance brings it to his attention. Guy is in a unique position because he seems to be the only person who's seen everything in the case file and is willing to speak publicly about it.

Even though the case was never officially assigned to him, he actually went through. the evidence thoroughly. And here's Guy from a Facebook Live Q&A that he did about Ellen's case. I can tell you from my experience as a homicide prosecutor, it wasn't treated with the level that an investigation would be treated if viewed by the authorities as a homicide on scene. Why it wasn't with upwards of 20 stab wounds and a laceration to the head, I don't have a good answer for that. We have a link to that Facebook live video on our blog post. for this episode. But I want to go over a few points that he mentioned. So guys saw the surveillance footage from Venice Lofts, which show the lobby and it shows the corridor leading to the gym.

The only people who came and went around the time of Ellen's death were other residents of the building, no strangers. Video footage in Sam's key fob records verify that Sam got to the fitness center around 5 p.m. that day and was there for about 30 minutes before going back up to the apartment. There's only surveillance in the common area, so no one can see what happens in the 6th floor hallway. But there is footage showing Sam when he goes back down to speak with Phil, the security guard at the front desk. And that's the guy that Sam said he was with when he forced the door open and found Ellen, right? Yes, but there is one problem, like a big problem. Sam's story is not true.

What? According to Phil, when Sam went down. He did ask Phil for help getting into his apartment, but Phil said he repeatedly told Sam he couldn't help him. Like, it's against company policy, like not going to happen. Sam even told Phil that he might force or kick the door in and Phil warned him that, okay, you can do that, but you're going to be responsible for any damage that you cause. And then Sam went back upstairs by himself. I don't get it. What's the point of saying that Phil was with you if he wasn't? I don't know. In a declaration he gave Phil says that he knows.

never accompanied Sam upstairs, not for one single minute. The only time Phil went upstairs was later with first responders, but not with Sam. So no one was with Sam when he found Ellen. And did Phil ever talk to the police about this? He did, and here's what he told them, according to Guy. He conclusively stated in his signed statement to Philadelphia homicide detectives that he did not go upstairs. In other words, he was not there when the door. was when entry was made into the apartment.

So why would police corroborate Sam's story of a witness when they spoke to Dr. Osborne during that, like, come to Jesus meeting back in 2011? I have no clue. I mean, the evidence is irrefutable. Phil's statement is backed up by surveillance video, which shows Sam getting on the elevator to go back upstairs by himself. And so if that's what you used to help convince Emmy that it was a suicide, like, what the I actually want to stay on the topic of the door lock for a minute.

So remember the interior lock is like a huge reason that police were so quick to call it a suicide. And Guy basically says he was told the same thing. So he was picturing like this heavy duty deadbolt lock like the type he remembers from his own childhood home. But then when he sees photos of the lock, it's not exactly what he was expecting. I did a quick Google search, or really a YouTube search on is it possible to open or lock or unlock a, one of those sliding hotel. That's really what it is, a hotel locking mechanism. Within seconds, there's dozens of videos on how to do that, using a credit card, a hanger, a piece of gum, sticking the lock sort of halfway open, halfway closed, and slamming the door shut as hard

as possible. In other words, there's so many different ways to lock that door from the outside. Plus, Guy notices something else. The lock wasn't that badly damaged, considering Sam said that he forced his way in. There's some damage, don't get me wrong, but it was still intact and attached to the door. Oh, it's almost like it was pushed in and loosened enough that you could maybe unlock it without breaking it or doing anything else? I have no idea. I don't even know if Guy knows what it means. It's just not what he, I think, was expecting to see. Right. Basically, Guy just, he sees significant flaws in the way that this case was handled and how the crime scene was interpreted. And Guy isn't the only one who's seeing this stuff.

Over the next few years, Tom, the PI for the Greenbergs, brings a bunch of forensic pathologists on board, starting with Dr. Wayne Ross. Dr. Ross examines a piece of Ellen's spinal cord, which, surprisingly, the medical examiner's office still had. And in early 2017, he concludes that her cranial cavity had been punctured. According to the Oxygen Network, which profiled Ellen's case for an episode of accident, suicide, or murder, Dr. Ross says that injury would have likely rendered her unconscious, which clearly would have prevented her from stabbing herself again. Dr. Ross also says that there's evidence Ellen was strangled. What? And this is in 2017? Like, why is this the first time we're hearing about a strangulation? Well, as far as I can tell, it's the first time it comes up. In his report, Dr. Ross says that a mark on the front of Ellen's neck looks like it could have come from a fingernail.

And there are multiple bruises under and on the side of her neck. He also says that the bruises on Ellen's body are consistent with a repeated beating. So all in all, Dr. Ross concludes that all of the evidence points to homicide. Another expert weighs in a few months later, a detective who specializes in crime scene reconquited, construction. And he says blood pattern evidence suggests that Ellen's body was moved or repositioned after she died. Now remember, she was found sitting upright. But photos from the scene show this like trail of blood running horizontally across her face and like back towards her ear, which is quote against the law of gravity, end quote. Right. And that might explain why Sam in the 911

one call initially said that Ellen was on her back. Then when police get there, she's more, like you said, sitting up slumped against the lower kitchen cabinets. Do we know if Sam ever mentioned touching Ellen's body before the police arrived? We don't know. But according to Stephanie Far was reporting, police had a theory that her body was never moved. Like that's what they've been working off this whole time, that she stabbed herself while she was standing and then just slid to the floor. So if Sam did move her, I don't think he ever told that to police. Or it never got like incorporated into their working theory. And look, we could probably do 10 episodes just on these forensic reports. You can actually find links to all of the ones I mentioned plus others on

our website. But just to simplify what it comes down to is every expert the Greenberg's consult with says that Ellen's death is not a suicide. In late 2017, the Greenberg's former lawyer, this guy Larry Krasner, is elected Philadelphia District Attorney. Now, he had pushed for the DA's office to reopen Ellen's case. So in order to avoid the appearance of a conflict of interest, he turns it over to the state attorney general's office. Another year passes as Josh and Sandy wait to hear more about that investigation. And when they finally do, it's not the answer they expect or want. The attorney general's office tells Stephanie Farr that additional evidence was found, which supports the suicide ruling. The office says that

text between Ellen and her mom shortly before her death show that Ellen was in serious mental distress and that an examination of Ellen's computer shows suicide-related searches from December 18, 2010 through January 10, 2011, including painless suicide and methods of suicide. Which is strange because the investigation report from 2011 specifies that nothing related to suicide was ever found on either of Ellen's laptops. And there was no computer analysis report in the DA's file. But the Attorney General's office says that they got the results directly from the computer forensic lab that originally tested it.

And they say they're not sure if any police or prosecutors had ever even seen the analysis. Plus, as Guy points out in his Facebook live video, the chain of command was broken when it came to the computers. So the question is, is this even relevant? Because remember, Sam's family took them out of the video. the apartment and had them for a couple of days after Ellen died before police ever got to analyze them. Right.

And speaking of Guy and things that aren't in the DA's file, remember Dr. Rourke Adams? Yeah, she was the one who Dr. Osborne casually consulted with about Ellen's spinal cord, right? Right. Well, when Guy was looking through Ellen's file, he couldn't find a neuropathology report. And since this opinion from Dr. Rourke Adams was such a big part of the suicide, ruling, he really wanted to see it. When he asked police and the medical examiner for a copy, he was told it couldn't be found or maybe didn't exist?

Because there wasn't even an invoice for the work that she supposedly did. The Philadelphia Inquirer asked Dr. Rourke Adams about it and she says that she has no recollection of the case and that since there's no report and no bill for her services, she probably never saw the spinal cord, although there is a. quote, remote possibility, end quote, that she did. Okay, all of this is just bananas, Ashley. Tell me about it. By this time, it's been more than nine years since Ellen's death,

and the Greenbergs have now another lawyer representing them. A man named Joe Padraza. In June of 2019, Joe takes everything that they've gathered over the years and lays out the findings in letters to the original Emmys on the case. Drs Galino and Osborne, asking them to change the manner of death back to homicide or at the very least undetermined. Joe even says that there's forensic evidence that shows that two knives were used in the stabbing, one serrated and one smooth blade based on how Dr. Osborne described the wounds as having smooth edges. But still, nothing happens.

And for Josh and Sandy, that's the last straw. A few months later, they file a lawsuit against the Philadelphia Medical Examiner's Office and Dr. Osborne, seeking to have Ellen's manner of death changed from suicide to homicide or undetermined. In its response to the lawsuit, the city of Philadelphia says that the Greenbergs have no legal standing for the case. The medical examiner can't be forced to change their opinion, which the law protects. There's no requirement that a medical examiner convinced the public that their findings are accurate, and there's no requirement. requirement that they change a decision just because other forensic professionals don't agree with them. I'm sorry, I have to interrupt, but they already did? What? Yeah, but like for the police, not the public. I don't know. It doesn't really make sense.

Sorry, like, I'm just like, they already did this, though, so why can't they just do it again? I don't know. Sorry. I think they can. So they could at any time, but like, they can be forced to, right. Now, the city also says that the Greenberg's lawyers have misrepresented statements from Dr. Osborne and other medical professionals to fit the homicide manner of death ruling that they want. And Dr. Osborne lays out and defends his reasoning for changing the ruling from homicide to suicide. To him, it wasn't just pressure. He says it was facts that persuaded him. He mentions the spinal court evaluation by Dr. Rourke Adams,

which leaves open the possibility that Ellen would still be able to stab herself. He says there's the lack of defensive wounds and the fact that some of the injuries are really shallow, which could be what's known as hesitation wounds, like tentative cuts a person makes when they're, like, testing out what it feels like. And he says there are the statements from Sam and the busted doorlock that support his story, the witness who apparently saw him do it.

No signs of a struggle. Nothing was stolen. Okay, but we know that some of that stuff isn't even true. I mean, the part about Sam having a witness isn't true. Other stuff is really shaky, like the doctor's final court evaluation. Yeah, listen, the great. Greenbergs have a lot of people in their corner who agree. There is a Justice for Ellen Facebook page that has more than 26,000 followers and a petition on change.org to have the attorney general reopen her case.

And that petition has more than 43,000 signatures. But listen, I've seen what crime junkies can do. You could easily add a couple hundred thousand to that. Again, link is right in the show notes. It takes two seconds. You can fill it out while you keep listening. And legal proceedings are literally underway as we speak. And because of that, there have been a bunch of recent developments.

For instance, the Greenberg's lawyer got his own expert to examine Ellen's computer. And they apparently found that the suicide-related searchlings were actually not direct searches. What do you mean? Well, Josh says that they were phantom searches that came up based on other stuff Ellen was looking for, like side effects of the medication she was taking. Okay, so like when you go to search, like, I don't know, crime junkie podcasts on Google, it will auto-fill search options beneath it for crime junkie merch, crime scenes, crime junk club, stuff like that. Right, exactly. Also, just last May, a pathologist named Lindsay Emery gave a deposition describing how Dr. Galino asked her to examine Ellen's spinal cord after she started working at the medical examiner's office. Dr. Emory said that at least one of the injuries had no hemorrhage or vital response.

which usually means that the person had no pulse when they were injured. What do you mean they had no pulse when they were injured, Ashley? What? Yeah, so basically it's possible that Ellen was already dead for some of the stab wounds that she endured. So she couldn't have done them? Yeah, but Dr. Emery also said it is possible that hemorrhage was washed away during the autopsy. So she couldn't draw any firm conclusions about the manner of debt. She said that she would need more information.

But that's the major issue in this case. It's too late to go back and get certain information. Guy talked about that in his Facebook live video. If certain things were done differently, we could have had definitive answers. The Greenbergs have been searching for those answers for 11 years now, and a lot has changed during that time. Sam Goldberg got married in 2014 and is a father. His uncle, who Sandy says took Ellen's stuff out of the apartment, day after her death is a judge now. Guy D'Andria went into private practice, and Dr. Osborne

took a new job in Florida. And get this. Dr. Galino, Osborne's former boss, was actually placed on administrative leave due to an unrelated scandal involving the cremated remains of some bombing victims. Oh, okay. Yeah, a lot to take in. Meanwhile, a Philadelphia judge recently ruled that the Greenberg's lawsuit can go to trial, although no one knows exactly when that could happen. But just being able to go to trial is a major win for the Greenbergs. Josh and Sandy are still haunted by the way their daughter died and of what she must have endured before her death. They believe Ellen was a victim of domestic violence. We know she was not a suicide victim.

She was a homicide victim of a brutal attack, and she was abused before the attack. She was being abused. She didn't know how to tell us that she was being abused, and we didn't know how to ask the right questions to find out if she was being abused. Sam Goldberg has never been charged with domestic violence against Ellen. And while he hasn't publicly commented about her death to any media that I'm aware of, he did apparently tell her family members that he believes she died by suicide. Ellen's parents are careful to avoid pointing the finger directly at Sam.

And police have never named him as a suspect. It's not our job to find out who murdered Ellen Ray Greenberg. So we're not going to speculate and we're not going to talk about it. We need professionals who have ethics who will investigate this case and bring justice to our daughter. This is my mission and my purpose to get justice for my daughter. Tom says Ellen's story is really a cautionary tale about trusting all the players, in the criminal justice system to do a thorough job. In a case like this, you want to make sure that it never, ever happens again.

What the hell is the problem? Who the hell are they protecting? And why? That's my big thing. Why? Thank God the Greenbergs have the support that they do to go through this. because how many individuals are out there that don't have, that these types of things have occurred, and don't have that kind of support.

If you or someone you know is a victim of domestic violence, help is available. The number for the National Domestic Violence Hotline is right in our show notes, along with a number that can provide help for anyone dealing with suicidal thoughts. Hi, crime junkies, Nina here. Like Ashley said at the top of the episode, I reported on this case back in 2021, but lots has happened since then, and I've been following along every step of the way. Since 2011, Ellen's parents have fought to have her manner of death changed from suicide to homicide, or at the very least, undetermined. They also sued the city of

Philadelphia for emotional distress, accusing officials, police officers, and Dr. Marlon Osborne, the pathologist who conducted her autopsy of conspiring to cover up her murder. That all came to a head earlier this year in February, when the emotional distress trial was supposed to start. It was there that everyone would have to answer for how they handled Ellen's case in a very public way. But that didn't happen. Instead, Dr. Osborne's lawyers called the Greenberg's lawyers and decided to reconsider. And now, he says that based on new evidence he hadn't seen back in 2011, he no longer believes Ellen's death should be classified as a suicide. According to Osborne, this new information included things like conflicting witness statements and forensic findings.

Now, the so-called new info is not new. These facts have been public for years, and you guys heard it all in our episode. What was new was that Osborne acknowledged them, and that was huge because even though he no longer worked for Philadelphia, it essentially pitted him against the city, and he probably would have been called to testify against them. So, right when jury selection was starting. The city decided to settle their case. They didn't admit to any wrongdoing, but they agreed to pay the Greenberg's an undisclosed amount of money, and most importantly, they agreed to expeditiously re-examine Ellen's case. When we talked to Ellen's parents, they had mixed feelings. On one hand, they got what they've been fighting for, for Ellen's case to be re-examined. But they spent 14 years

and almost a million dollars in legal fees to get to that point. Hulu's docu series, Death in Apartment 603, what happened to Ellen Greenberg goes into all of this and what's happened since that settlement was reached, which, according to Ellen's parents, hasn't been enough at all. In September, the Greenbergs were back in court looking to compel Philadelphia to produce its findings of its re-examination of Ellen's case. According to the Philadelphia inquirer, the judge presiding over that hearing, Linda Carpenter, seemed to understand why the Greenbergs were frustrated. She called out the city for the delay. which she said was ridiculous. Judge Carpenter actually questioned whether she should conduct a

hearing to change Ellen's manner of death from suicide to undetermined herself, and she suggested forcing the case back to trial. Ultimately, though, Judge Carpenter agreed to continue the case until October 14th, so there could be another update very soon. And if there is, trust that we'll let you know, because we're still following this case closely. Make sure to follow Crime Junkie on social media at Crime Junkie Podcast. And for even more episodes featuring original reporting like the work I did for this episode,

join the Crime Junkie Fan Club today. You can find all the source material for this episode on our website, Crimejunkie Podcast.com. And if you want to listen to more, episodes like this and all of our episodes completely add free, be sure to join our fan club. We'll put a link to that in the show notes. You'll also get early access to new episodes every week as well. And you can follow us on Instagram at Crime Junkie Podcast. We will be back next week with a brand new episode. Crime Junkie is an audio chuck production. I think Chuck would approve.