Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 16-year-old school girl KILLERS!

Episode Date: November 3, 2020

Lesley Luna Pantaleon’s family reports her missing, last seen by her family members as she left home in her mother's 2006 Blue Chevrolet Trailblazer. Montgomery Police department issues a missing person alert. Her body was found 10 days later in Catoma creek, a half-mile from where the attack happened. Police have arrested three 16-year-olds in connection to the murder. Joining Nancy Grace today: Joseph Marrone - Philadelphia, criminal defense attorney, www.marronelaw.com Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst, Beverly Hills, ww.drbethanymarshall.com Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Sierra Gillespie - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter Leigh Egan - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A 17-year-old girl goes missing and now the bizarre facts that unfold. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Take a listen to the day that Leslie Pantaleon disappears. Leslie Luna Pantaleon's family reports her missing just hours after she's last seen. Her mother, Victoria Pantaleon, calls Montgomery, Alabama police and an alert is issued. The 17-year-old girl was last seen by her family members as she left home in her mother's 2006 blue Chevrolet Trailblazer.

She does not return home. The Montgomery, Alabama Police Department's missing persons alert describes Leslie Luna Pantaleon as having a scar on the left side of her face, wearing a black shirt, black pants. Guys, you were just listening to Dave Mack at CrimeOnline.com. Again, thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories. A young girl goes missing and an all-out search ensues. With me, an all-star panel to break it down and put it back together again. First of all, renowned New York defense attorney who practices all over in multiple jurisdictions, but is joining us today from New York, Jason Oceans. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst to the stars, joining me out of Beverly Hills. And you can find her at

drbethanymarshall.com. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. New star of a new hit series on the True Crime Network, Poisonous Liaisons. Sierra Gillespie, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter and her partner in crime, literally, Lee Egan, investigative reporter with Crime Online. First to you, Lee Egan, what can you tell me about Leslie Pantaleon, just 17 years old, just turned 17, but I swear, Lee, that she looks to me like she's 14. Yes, she does. She looks a lot younger than her age. Where's she from? Let's start with that. Okay. She is from Montgomery, Alabama, and she was reported missing on June 24th by her parents. I know that. I know when she was reported missing. I know the parents reported her missing, but I want to know who she is because

don't you agree to Joe Scott Morgan, your professor of forensics, if you want to find someone and you find out what happened to them, you have to know them first. For instance, if Jackie went missing, I'd first say, well, she's here bright and early, every day to the studio. She gets things going. She this, she that. She what would I say? She loves to eat out.

I know her favorite restaurants. I know what she does. She's got a bum knee. So she's not out jogging. I can tell you that much. She was not abducted while she was out jogging. One of those push-up bra jogging outfits. That's not going to happen.

So when you know somebody, Joe Scott, you're better equipped to figure out where they are and what happened to them. Yeah, it's a proverbial string you pull on the sweater. The whole thing will come unraveled, hopefully. I don't know what that just meant, what a unraveled sweater has to do with it. I mean, I want to know how does a 17-year-old girl just turn 17 just disappear? Yeah, off the face of the planet. And, you know, you do have to know her habits, who she's hanging out with, who's in her tight little circle?

Most people do have a tight little circle of people that they stay in contact with. And, of course, we first have to start with the parents. But, you know, a big thing with kids nowadays and has been for the past several years is social media. What's she posting? Who's she hanging out with? What time are these posts time stamped? That's a big clue. Jason Oceans, how old is your daughter? She'll be, Nancy, she'll be 19 in

a month and a half. I can't believe that. So she's, if I were you I would hold on to 18. So Jason, have you ever looked at her cell phone? I rely on, I rely on my wife Alice to take care of all technical issues. So she looks on my cell phone, right? I have to. I hope you have Life 360. I love Life 360 because I can get a general idea of where everybody is. The other day I thought Davey was at a workout gym. I nearly passed out and called a divorce lawyer.

But it turned out he was in the parking lot trying to make a call in front of the gym. Anyway, I'm just, Jason, wouldn't you agree with the teen girl? You know, you can find out so much by just looking at their phone. No doubt about that. And I will say to privacy that, you know, as they get older, they're, you know, become more and more independent. You know, twins at 13. They're still 12.

Rachel at 19. No, still 12. It changes. Well, those teen years are coming. I did not ask you about their independence. I know they think they're independent and you have to play along with it. Talking about a missing girl, Jason, when I'm talking about a missing girl, independence and privacy, shmibacy. I don't care.

I want to find her. I mean, the reality is Dr. Bethany Marshall. I don't really know what's wrong with her. I mean, the reality is Dr. Bethany Marshall, I don't really know what's wrong with Joe Scott Morgan and Jason Oceans right now, but Dr. Bethany Marshall, a teen girl lives and dies on her cell phone. She breathes her cell phone. If you want to know where she is, find out who she's talking to. Like Joe Scott Morgan started to say that's their life. Nancy, exactly. And in my practice, I'm always talking with parents about the difference between privacy and secrecy.

Secrecy is when your teen has a whole double life that they know you wouldn't approve of, and so they hide it from you. Like maybe a predator is communicating with them or they're involved in some sort of drug activity. Privacy is when they're developing their own sense of self independent from the parents. And that line between the two is so confusing. But let's think about this. This young girl, Nancy, she only weighs 90 pounds. She's so beautiful. The picture I'm looking at, she's wearing a little gray, like almost like a ski cap and like a flannel shirt. I mean, she's a darling. She's innocent.

The parents lend her their car. So there's this sense, this illusion of the connection between the parents and the child and the child being in the parent's car. And the only way they can really search for where she is is through her social media so if i was a parent i'd be all over the social media and also there's the aspect of the vehicle sierra gillespie i think what dr bethany said is correct that the parents say the last time they saw her she was borrowing the mom's 2006 blue chevy trail blazer in 2006 did vehicles have a navigation system in them oh that's a great question i don't think they did i don't know that they would so we know this is in montgomery the capital of alabama and we know that um there

are a lot of people that live there so So is she living in a suburb? Is she downtown in a high rise? Where did the family live? No. So she's actually in Montgomery, Alabama, like proper Montgomery. So that is a very bustling area. Lots of people. And the last place that her parents reported seeing her was Perry Street, which is a somewhat residential area.

So she's on a residential area in her mom's car, and she was wearing a black shirt and black pants. Now, I know she has a scar, which is definitely something someone would remember if her hair was pulled back. She's got long, dark hair, and it comes down the sides. I can't see how she's got it on top because she's wearing that little gray hat that Bethany Marshall is talking about. She looks like she's got diamond studs in her ears and big, big, beautiful smile. So what happens to this girl? Where does she go? For anybody that has information, 334-215-STOP, 334-215-7867. The investigation, the search for this girl kicks off. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about Leslie Pantaleon, just turned 17, Montgomery, Alabama.

The search is all out. And then we learn this. Take a listen to Jordan Elston, WSFA 12. Tonight we're following breaking news. A death investigation is underway after a body was found in a creek on the west side of Montgomery. According to Montgomery police, that body was recovered from Katoma Creek in the area of Old Selma Road Bridge and just off the West Boulevard. It's also about a mile and a half north of the Montgomery Regional Airport. New video tonight shows a large police presence of and first responders in the area. Police tell us they got a tip from someone in that area about a possible

body in the water. Montgomery Fire and Rescue was called in to assist, eventually recovering that person. However, not much else is known right now. MPD says this is currently being treated as a death investigation. Right now we don't know the name or gender of this person and police are in the process of figuring out what happened. That feeling that must have come over her family while she's missing and then suddenly a body is found in a creek. A body is found in a creek. Why? And of course the family is wondering, is this her? Probably trying desperately to get through to police to find out what they can.

Take a listen to Peter Albrecht, WKRG. Police in Montgomery are investigating the death of a 17-year-old girl. Leslie Luna Pantleon was last seen June 24th. Her body was found Saturday in a creek north of Montgomery's airport, and today an autopsy confirmed her identity. Police say a tip led them to the body. The body is confirmed to be that of the 17-year-old little girl, Leslie Pantaleon. To Sierra Gillespie, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. of the 17-year-old little girl, Leslie Pantaleon.

To Sierra Gillespie, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Sierra, what do we know about the discovery of her body? Was it a jogger who called in that her body was there, or do we know? Nancy, we don't know for sure who called in. We just know that police in the area received a tip. So they're likely trying to protect the identity of this person who sent in this tip. Are they still sticking with that Lee Egan that it was? Lee Egan joining me from crimeonline.com. Are they still sticking with the story that it was an anonymous tip? I mean, don't police have caller ID? They are still saying that it was a tipster. They're not giving out the name of who it was.

So they're going to say anonymous at this time. So that tells me a lot right there, Jason Oceans. It tells me it's somebody that's afraid to have their name attached to this case. And that means it's someone that knows what's going on. Because, you know, if I see a car wreck, I call 911 and have the, if the police aren't already there, I don't care if they have my phone number and my name. So why would this person want to remain anonymous when they find a dead body face down in a creek, Jason Oceans? Well, Nancy, you've answered the question and accurately when you have nothing to hide, the information is free flowing.

You want to be tagged for that. You know, sure, I saw that. Here's my name and number. But you want to be anonymous in that instance because clearly, you know, a lot more of the back story, if not actually what happened. Straight out to death investigator or professor of forensics Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott what do we know about the cause of death and how will being submerged in water affect the determination? Well I'm glad you brought up the submerged her body being submerged as you mentioned she was face down so you know one of the first things that we would look for

is to see if she was drowned of of course, the status of the clothing. But going to the specific cause of death, this young girl was beaten to death, Nancy, and stabbed. This is a very intimate event. It indicates a lot of rage. She was literally ripped apart and then placed in this, in this, discarded in this area. And lots of times when you see bodies that are in creeks, one of the reasons they wind up there is because many times the creeks are in kind of a depressed area. It gives a, it gives kind of a hidden space where you can place the body and people are not going to think that the body is going to show up. Problem is, though, is that the body is completely exposed if you just stand up on the bank and you see this. We also know, Joe Scott, that it was near an airport,

according to Sierra Gillespie, which tells me it could have been very likely an industrial area. Yeah. And, you know, this is another interesting piece to this, Nancy, around these so-called industrial areas. You have a lot of truckers that come through this area. You have a lot of a transient population that might walk around this area. So one of the things you might think is that, well, is this just somebody that just randomly picked her out of a crowd or saw her stranded on the side of the road. Remember, she was in her parents' car. Or maybe they just saw her burger joint or something.

You know, she's 17 years old. She's out. She's getting some food. And then they kidnap her and bring her to this area and do some horrible things to her, obviously. So, you know, she's not necessarily in a highly congested neighborhood at this moment, Tom. She's discarded. It also gives us an indication that whoever put her body there had a knowledge of the area. Joe Scott, what about the fact that, well, correct me if I'm wrong, Lee Egan,

I don't have any evidence that there was any sex assault or robbery. They never mentioned anything about a sex assault, possible robbery. Yeah, where's the car? Where's the mom's car? Was that recovered, Lee? Yes, it was. So maybe she was carjacked, but you don't have to kill her and throw her down a creek for a carjack. Typically with a carjack, you shoot the person or you throw them out of the car and take the car and leave. Very rarely would you find a carjacker killing the person, then dragging their body and throwing them in a creek and taking off in the car. That's the whole point of a carjack. You do it in a hurry

and you get away with the vehicle. Guys, we're talking about the death of a beautiful young girl just turned 17. What more do we know about her body? To you, Joe Scott Morgan, you said she was beaten horribly. Is there a way for medical examiners to look at the beating marks on the body and determine what type of instrument was used to beat the victim, such as a baseball bat, such as a pole, such as anything that can leave a mark that could then be matched up to the instrument. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. When you have an instrument like, you know, the example I like to use is a threaded pipe because most people can understand, you know, the area where the threads are on the end of the pipe. If you strike somebody with this very heavy object, it's going to leave an imprint of those threads behind on the surface of the skin.

Remember, the skin is very elastic. It's very malleable. And so not only will you have a bruised area, you'll also have an abraded area. Like an abrasion, like a scraped knee, but only it'll have a specific pattern. So when you begin to talk about like baseball bats, yeah, they will leave a specific mark. You'll have literally what we refer to as delineated areas. That means there is a mark of delineation where you see all the little margins around the edge. So you can kind of approximate the size of the instrument that may have been used, such as the barrel of a baseball bat, the barrel

of a gun, or maybe just a pole. You just never know, but you can get it within the ballpark. Can you imagine what the parents went through waiting and hoping that their daughter would be found, 17-year-old Leslie Pantaleon, only to learn from the, their daughter's body is found face down in a creek near the airport. We believe in an industrial area. The car, her mother's car, gone. Her cell phone, gone. No sex attack. So why did this little girl have to die.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the death and the disappearance of a 17-year-old girl from Montgomery, Alabama, Leslie Pantaleon. What happened? Take a listen to our Dave Mack at CrimeOnline.com. At the home, Leslie Pantaleon got into a physical altercation with Taisha Wisenhunt. Afterwards, Pantaleon, Wisenhunt, Taniya Merriweather, Aaron Taylor, and an unnamed juvenile boy got into Pantaleon's trailblazer with Taylor

driving. We don't know yet if Pantaleon went willingly or if she was forced. She is reportedly in the back seat with Wisenut and another fight breaks out. Taylor pulled the car over in a wooded area where Pantaleon was beaten with a metal pole from a gate and stabbed with a pocket knife. The four leaving Pantaleon in the wooded area, get back into the trailblazer and return to Wisenant's home. Okay, to you, Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com. These are three 16-year-old girls. What happened? Yes, three 16-year-old girls. And allegedly, from what an attorney said at a preliminary hearing last week, is that supposedly someone stole a gun from the victim, and then someone told the victim that the gun was over at Wisnot's house.

So Pantaleon goes over there looking for the gun. And at some point, an argument breaks out. And then that's when they all end up in the trailblazer going towards the woods. So I don't know if this was the family gun that Leslie had, but it goes missing. Then she gets wind that these three teen girls, who I assume she knew, stole it because she knows where they live. She goes over there, asks them, where's the gun? The next thing you know, they lure her back in the car. Is this her mother's car? Yes. So they get her back in the car.

These three girls, teen girls, 16 years old, drive her out to the woods. I notice she's not driving her mother's car. That tells me she didn't want to get in the car. She should be driving her mother's car, not them. Get her in the woods. And what ensues in the woods, Lee? Once they got in the woods, one of the suspects found a metal pole

from a fence, excuse me, and they proceed to beat her so badly that there was bones crushed all in her face. A cause of death couldn't even be determined because she was so badly beaten they couldn't tell if she was dead before they threw her in a river which they did later or after i just i don't understand it to dr bethany marshall you're the psychoanalyst how could teen girls be so evil? Nancy, I would wonder if there was a ringleader. Like, there seemed to be three teen girls. And from the reports I read, there was one girl who was more aggressive and leading the others. Now, what's unusual about this, in all the cases we've covered over the years. Usually it's boys traveling in a PAX and being very aggressive. And it's a sociopathic male leader who recruits vulnerable

younger boys to aggress against a victim along with him. But in this case, it's girls. These are outliers. This is not just, you know, Lohan and Mean Girls, a movie. This is murderous, homicidal instincts with three young women against a 90-pound, beautiful little girl. Beat her so badly, the bones in her face are all broken. They can't even tell the cause of death. Plus, you have her face down in a creek for a period of time before she's found. Over what? Listen to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. After being beaten and stabbed, Leslie Pantaleon is left in the wooded area.

The suspects drive back to Wisenut's home where they wake up another girl and confess to the crime. The girl is taken to see the body. When they arrive, Pantaleon is still alive. Her feet can be seen moving. Wisenut allegedly tells the other suspects that she, quote, needed to be taken care of, unquote. Pantaleon and the pole used to beat her are loaded into the back of the trailblazer and driven to a creek where the 17-year-old and the pole were tossed in the water. Wisenhut says it looked like Pantaleon was trying to swim. Sierra Gillespie, let me understand. After this severe beating, they take, they go get another girl. The girl comes and looks at the body and then who I guess is the quote ringleader as Dr. Bethany Marshall describes them.

That would be Taisha Wisnant says she's got to be taken care of, which means gotten rid of. They then throw her into the creek and she's still alive, Sierra. She's trying to swim? Yeah, Nancy, I think what the most important takeaway from this is they left the crime scene, went and confessed to another girl, then immediately came back to the crime scene. And this girl, Pantaleon, they can see her feet and her toes moving. They left her for dead, but she was still fighting. So that's when what you're saying, the so-called ringleader, Wisenut said, we got to take care of her. Less than a mile away, went over to a creek and that's where they threw her body in. But she was fighting and trying to

get out. And she died right there. The cold blood running through those girls' veins. And again, over what? Listen to Dave Mack. 17-year-old Leslie Pantaleon's disappearance reportedly began with a gun that went missing in the spring. On June 24th, she was given the address of a person suspected to have it. Pantaleon wanted it back. Taisha Wisenot lived at the address, although police say it's believed that someone else took the gun. Detectives say they believe that person was Aaron Taylor's cousin. Taylor and Wisenut were friends. So they all know each other and somehow Leslie Pantaleon gets the

address of this, the devil's minions and goes over, I've been told it was a family gun and she knew she had to get it back, goes over there and she ends up dead. I mean, Jason Oceans, New York defense attorney, under the U.S. Supreme Court ruling, no one under 18 can be put to death. But the aggravating circumstances here are outrageous. They see her. She's been beaten horribly. Her face literally crushed in, this little girl. And these 16-year-old devils look down at her, and they realize she's still alive.

So they submerge her in a creek where the poor thing tries to swim for her life and dies. That's some cold blood jason oceans and nancy there there's no doubt about that uh you know subject that's what you've got to say you're the defense lawyer there's no doubt about it yeah there's no doubt about it because we got a snitch listen most of the time at that point uh defense attorneys you know are trying to separate you know ringleader out from whom and see if there's cooperation. And maybe you're looking at, you know, removing death penalty or a fixed sentence of, you know, 25 or 30 years. You're trying to bargain away years for time and cooperation and see if, you know, the authorities even need your help at all.

So you're in a tough spot right now. They don't need any help. You know there are forensics out there yin-yang. They don't need any one of these girls to blab. And Jason Oceans, I hope you're sitting down. Cooperation. Cooperation, blah. Don't need it. Don't need it.

Don't need it. I want them all to get life. But I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down for this. At the end, the girl, the victim, Leslie, was saying, please, she was begging, please, just take me home. You can have my truck, just take me home. You can have my truck. Just take me home. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Such a gruesome beating of a teen girl, 90 pounds, wet, soaking wet, precious, trying to go back and retrieve what we've been told was a family gun that was stolen. She knew she had to get that gun back. I don't know if her parents were going to find out that it was gone, but it was gone. So she goes to the address of who she's been told has the gun. She gets there, and these three teen girls unleash the gates of hell on this little girl. I mean, Dr. Bethany, the little girl was begging, look, you can take my mom's car. You can have it. Just take me home. But they took her out into the woods and beat her so badly that Emmy can't even tell the cause of death.

Nancy, there has to have been something building up between these three female perpetrators and the victim. Why are you trying to make it more complicated than it is? So what if they didn't like each other? So what if one threw a spitball in the eighth grade? Who cares? They beat her to a pulp. They beat those delicate bones in. They crushed her teeth so badly the ME couldn't tell the cause of death.

Bethany, who cares what happened in the fifth grade? I mean, I've been listening to the panel and trying to figure out what to say about three murderous teenage girls. The lack of empathy. Even you with Lucy and John David, from the time they're little, you teach them to share their toys and to have empathy with other kids. You're not blaming the parents, are you? Is that where this is going? No. I'm just seeing this fly in the face of everything we know about socializing

our children and teaching them to be kind and to have empathy. This is the polar opposite where this is senseless, murderous rage. As a psychoanalyst, I even hate to analyze this because it seems so trite in the face of what happened, but they must have envied her at some level. She's beautiful. She's lovely.

She had a family who cared, a family who gave her their vehicle. She was concerned about what the parents thought about the gun that went missing. You know, she was on a mission for her family, not to get a gun, but to retrieve something that was maybe a part of a memorabilia in the family. And they smashed her skull in. Maybe she had something they didn't have. Maybe she had a better life. Maybe she was more beautiful. Behind every mean girl is envy, and this envy turned into murderous rage.

That's interesting that you said that that behind every mean girl is envy. To Lee Egan, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what do we know? Why did they have to kill the girl? Well, Nancy, they are not really telling us. The teens have admitted to their parts in it, but they're pointing the finger at one another. Wisenot says that the other teen did most of the beating, while another teen says she did.

They also stabbed her, didn't they, Lee? Yes, someone stabbed her, and they're pointing the finger at each other. Nobody will take responsibility for the brutal. I mean, they all say, oh, I pushed her, and then she did this, but the other person did this. So they're not really owning up to what really happened. This little girl survived a metal pole beating. So her teen girl attackers dump her in a creek to drown. I mean, that's it in a nutshell. That's the opening statement and the closing statement right there. They dump her in a creek to drown. I find it hard to believe. Sierra, is all this over a lost family gun? Nancy, from what it

sounds like, I don't know if it could be. I mean, in order to beat someone in this way, see that they're still alive when you come back and then dispose of them again, there has to be something even bigger building up here. But something I also want to point out as well about these girls, when they came back to the crime scene and threw Leslie Pantaleon into the creek, after that, they went to McDonald's to go get smoothies. You really know how to turn the knife, don't you, Sierra Gillespie? So after they brutally murder the little girl, they go out for smoothies to celebrate. Take a listen to DaveMacCrimeOnline.com.

During a combined preliminary hearing for Taniya Merriweather, Aaron Taylor, and Taisha Wisenut, all 16 years old, Detective Ashley Brown testifies that Leslie Pantaleon's cell phone records helped link her killers to the crime. Brown testified that during interviews with the three suspects, the teens admitted to some things in part, corroborating details each other said, but

denied claims made by each other. Each of the girls claimed little to no involvement in the physical altercations with Pantaleon. Taylor said Wisenut hit the victim with the pole, while Wisenut claims it was Taylor that hit Pantaleon. Taylor said Wisenut hit the victim with the pole, while Wisenut claims it was Taylor that hit Pantaleon. According to the other girls, Merriweather helped move the victim to the back of the vehicle before she was dumped in the water. One fact that is known, after dumping Pantaleon in the river, the group went to McDonald's and bought smoothies at about 6 a.m. All right, Jason Oceans, there you go. What's going to be the defense? It's murdering and beating the girl, breaking every bone in her face with a metal rod.

Certainly did not affect their appetite, Jason. No, it clearly didn't. And as I referenced before, sometimes the facts and circumstances leave you as defense counsel. But with the realities of life and many years in prison with a death penalty on the table. But as for as for this defense counsel, you know, you're you're not playing with creating magic out of something. What are you saying? I don't even know what you're saying. You're just like people. It doesn't even make sense. I'm telling you, they go out to celebrate with smoothies. I understand, Nancy. You're asking a defense counsel. I'm not going to argue those facts. I'm not arguing the facts away, nor creating something that is a reality.

Man, if I were a defense lawyer, which thank God I never have or will be, I'd try to get it suppressed. I can't think of a reason to suppress it other than it's after the fact. Of course, we know evidence before, during, and after the fact can come in and be admissible. Man, I bet they've even got them on video, Jason. Just kick back having smoothies. I don't think you have much to do here. Really, you're bargaining against an actual trial and you're going to try to separate whatever counts in memory or dissecting evidence as it might be and create reasonable doubt. That's all that you really can do. I'd say that in my first sentence.

Depending upon who you have, you're trying to get them to cooperate. First sentence. I'd say it starts here and it ends here, where the killers celebrate with McDonald's smoothies. You know, that's not the first time McDonald's celebration post-massacre has occurred. Take a listen to Dave Mack. When detectives located the suspects, they were living in a family compound of camper trailers not far from the murder scene. They were living off the grid, with no running water, no electricity,

using generators for power. T.J. Wiggins and his girlfriend live in one of the travel trailers. His brother had another. With a search warrant, police found two SKS rifles, two Mossberg shotguns, and ammunition for both in a gun safe belonging to T.J. Wiggins. The ammunition found there, police say, was the same ammunition fired from the gun in the murders, a Smith & Wesson handgun. Tracing the suspect's movement after the killings, police say the three suspects drove to McDonald's, ordered 10 double cheeseburgers, two McChicken sandwiches, and then went home to eat. The next morning, Robert Wiggins took the truck he was driving to a car wash to get the road clay off. Did you hear that? Another, that was a triple massacre after a fishing trip. And those killers go out and celebrate with a

dozen McDonald's double cheese and two McChicken. You know why I'm telling you that in detail, Dr. Bethany Marshall? A dozen double cheese and two McChickens? Because they had to really think that through when they were going through the drive-thru. They weren't thinking about the dead victims. They were focused on what they were going to eat, just like these teen girls were focused on which smoothie, strawberry or blueberry. They didn't give a flying fig about the dead girl. Actually, Nancy, from a forensic perspective and a psychoanalytic perspective, we look at it differently. We think that when there's a homicide, there's actually a relief

phase that occurs after the homicide with the perpetrators that lasts from six to nine months, meaning they have such a severe amount of hatred towards the victim that once the victim is gone, they are dancing on the victim's grave. Look at all the stories that you have discussed over the years and what the perpetrators have done following, let's say, a domestic homicide or a random shooting. It's not just going to McDonald's. It's going out shopping. It's Casey Anthony going and buying push-up bras. It's dancing on a stripper pole. It's Scott Peterson going and just dating and dating and dating. It's all these perpetrators being so happy when the victim is gone. All their torturous thoughts about the victim leading up, whether it's envy or you're

going to hurt me or you're my child, I'm going to have to support you and give you money for the rest of your life and hear what you have to tell me about myself. All those horrible feelings that these pathological perpetrators cannot stand, they wipe them out in a moment by killing the victim. And so they're so happy. I guess that's why they go get the happy meal, right? They're happy. You know, I've never thought about it like that, Dr. Bethany. And it's chilling to think about it the way you just described it, but I'm afraid you're right. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crum Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.