Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 19 Fourth Graders, 2 Teachers Gunned Down Dead: WHY?

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

Suspected shooter Salvador Ramos shot his grandmother before his rampage at Robb Elementary School. Nineteen students and at least two adults were killed. The grandmother is reportedly in critical condition.  At about 11:30 a.m., police received a report that a pickup truck — apparently driven by Ramos — had crashed into a ditch outside the school. Ramos got out of the vehicle with a long rifle and a backpack and wearing a tactical vest. Ultimately, Ramos was engaged by two other officers from the Uvalde Police Department but was able to gain entry into the school and began shooting.    Joining Nancy Grace Today: Kathleen Murphy - Family Attorney (North Carolina), NCDomesticlaw.com,  Twitter: @RalDivorceLaw  Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics: Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet", Host: "Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan" David Katz - Former Senior Special Agent with the DEA, Founder and CEO: Global Security Group, Inc., Active Shooter Response Expert, Tony Plohetski - Investigative Reporter, Austin American-Statesman and KVUE (Austin, TX), Twitter: @tplohetski  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nineteen students dead, two teachers dead, and yet another school shooting. Why? Why in the most prosperous country in the world does this keep happening? Are you tired of hearing that? Well, I'm tired of saying it, but I can tell you something else. I'd be out of my mind if this happened at a school where my children attended. Think about that for a moment. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Take a listen to this. A gunman opened fire here at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas.

19 students and two teachers killed. elementary school in Uvalde, Texas. We need to respond to South Grove and Mill Street to establish a perimeter. 19 students and two teachers killed. My heart was broken today. We're a small community, and we will need your prayers to get us through this. Before entering the school, gunman 18-year-old Salvador Ramos, a student at Uvalde High School, shot his grandmother at her residence. She is now in critical condition. We were the first ones to hear the gunshot. We're right behind your house. Shortly after, the suspect crashed his car outside of the school premises where he engaged with law enforcement. Then at 11.32 a.m. Central Time, the suspect, wearing body armor,

abandoned his vehicle and entered the school where second, third and fourth graders were in the middle of the school day. You're hearing our friend Amy Robach at ABC. We've got an all star panel, but let me go straight out to the scene. Joining me, Tony Plohetsky, reporter with the Austin American-Statesman and KVUE. Tony, what happened? Nancy, authorities are still trying to fully understand what happened. But what we know is that this gunman shot his grandmother at her home where he also lived before going to this school and opening fire. Nancy, authorities do tell us that the grandmother is still alive.

And based on a briefing that a state senator here in Texas received late last night, that grandmother actually worked at Robb Elementary School until May of 2020. So they're still, of course, trying to figure out the connections here, but that is the latest information. So he shot his grandmother, who's in critical condition, who used to work at rob what can you tell me about his mo his modus operandi method of operation he shows up crashes his car intentionally not intentionally goes into the school how does he get into the school what weapons did he use and why did he pick that particular time of day? I'm curious. Go ahead, Tony.

Yeah, and obviously some of that information are the same questions, Nancy, that authorities are trying to ask as well. Two, two AR rifles on May 17th and May 20th. That was just last week from a local federally licensed firearm dealer here in Ubaldi. He is, of course, from Ubaldi, as well as, Nancy, nearly 400 rounds of ammunition. Oh, dear Lord in heaven. I know the rest of the panel is chomping at the bit. I'm going to come to you in just a moment, but we're expecting a presser, and I want to get every drop of information from Tony Plohetsky joining us before

he races over to the press conference. Tony Plohetsky, you stated he bought two AR rifles on May 20, is that correct? May 17th and May 20th. Nancy, this is right around his 18th birthday. I want to be clear about that, too.

Right after his 18th birthday. And so, obviously, a lot of attention on where he purchased these firearms. But again, to be clear, according to the ATF, which has been working around the clock to try to unpack all of this, he did purchase them legally. Okay. Yes, I've heard statements from the gun shop owner that sold him the guns who's beside himself. The reality is, is that you can purchase guns, even assault rifles at age 18. But in that jurisdiction, your jurisdiction, Tony Ploheski joining me from the same, you have to be 21 to drink? That's exactly right. That's exactly right. Before I can have a hard cider, I got to be 21, but I can get an assault rifle at 18. Is that correct?

That is correct. Go ahead, Tony. Tell me about the school. How did he get into the school? Did they have any security whatsoever? Not to my knowledge. Nancy, I want to tell you something that I was so struck by yesterday evening as I arrived at the scene. And of course, we all know that the media from around the country, around the world, converges on a scene like this. We're talking about an elementary school that looks just like the one I went to in Mississippi. You know, a picturesque elementary school, playground equipment, and then to see that school completely ringed by law enforcement combing through that school, trying to identify these 19 little bodies. It just stood in stark contrast. And Nancy, a point that I've also made is that this is very reminiscent for me personally of the Sutherland Springs shooting in 2017.

I was on the ground there as well. And it just is a reminder that these types of incidents are not limited to urban areas, but instead are now we're seeing them play out in small cities. You've all 16,000 people across our country. You know, Tony Plohetsky joining me from the scene there in Texas, he is with KVUE and Austin American Statesmen. What you just said about Robb Elementary, it's so odd. I thought the very same thing. It looked like my public elementary school in middle Georgia in the middle of unincorporated Bibb County. Dr. John H. Hurd Elementary looks almost exactly like it. What time of the day did the shootings take place,

Tony Plohetsky? Nancy, just right before lunch, right around 1130 is when authorities started getting the 911 call and law enforcement, state, federal, local law enforcement converged on the scene. But Nancy, they had trouble subduing this suspect because he apparently was wearing some type of armor that prevented them from taking him down. So clearly a lot of thought and a lot of preparation. Tony, where was he when he was finally subdued and shot? Inside the school building, Nancy. I don't know at this point exactly if he was in a classroom, in the hallway, in the library, in the cafeteria. I don't have that level of detail. What I can tell you, though, is that of the two guns that he purchased just last week, one of them was in his crashed out

vehicle. The other one, of course, was with him. You know, I'm curious about how he got in, whether the school had any type of security, whether they kept the doors locked. You know, just the other day, Tony Blahetsky, I was leaving the twin school and saw a door to the outside propped open. It was a really hot day. I turned right back around and called the school and waited for them to shut that door because that's the kind of security breach that can end up in a school shooting or some other crime. I'm thinking about the 11.30 a.m. attack.

Now, isn't it true, Tony Plohetsky, that this guy, the defendant, Salvador Ramos, lived not very far from the school? Isn't that right? That is my understanding. And in fact, Nancy had been on the ground talking to people this morning who said that they heard what they believe were the gunshot or a gunshot during which he shot his grandmother and then saw his car racing toward the school. This is a really small neighborhood. Homes are very near each other. And so then people reportedly saw him get out of that car and run into that school. And then, and then of course, the, the spray of gunfire, the hail of bullets.

Tony, did you say people observed him get out of the car and run in? That is my understanding, yes. I'm just wondering if he crashed the car for some reason. We also know that many, if not all, of the 19 dead children were fourth graders. Is that right, Tony? And who were the 19 dead children were fourth graders. Is that right, Tony? And who were the teachers? Yeah, two teachers. And Nancy, this is a school of about just 450 students ages K through fourth grade.

Sadly, we're told that one of the victims was 10 years old, and his mother had actually attended an award ceremony just a couple of hours earlier at that school. Of course, it was the last time she saw her young, adorable son. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, joining me there on the scene is Tony Plohetsky with KVUE and the Austin American Statesman. Take a listen to the Evalde chief of police. At approximately 11 32 a.m. this morning there was a mass casualty incident at Robb Elementary School in Uvalde, Texas. This school has children that are in second, third, and fourth grade. I can confirm right now that we have several injuries, adults and students, and we do have some deaths. The suspect is deceased at this point DPS is

assisting with the investigation and at this point the investigation is leading to tell us that the suspect did act alone during this heinous crime families are being notified and we are providing services to them as the district should as far as the rest as the district should. As far as the rest of the district is concerned, safety measures were taken to make sure that we had a safe release for the rest of the district throughout our city of Uvalde, and we had numerous law enforcement officers and agencies that assisted with the safety release for those students.

We do want to keep all our families in their prayers. I hope you do as well. And we also want to respect the privacy of the family. The crime scene is still being worked on. And again, we'll notify the parents and the families as soon as we have some news for them. There on the scene, Tony Plohetsky joining me from KVUE. I understand that a border patrol officer heard the shots and raced into the shooting to an active shooting scenario. And he is the one that shot Ramos. Is that correct?

That is correct. And I do want to also mention that there are law enforcement officers who were shot and injured as part of these events as well. Nancy, later today, we are expected to get some clarity as well around the number of students and faculty members who were injured as well. That count, as these things often do in a situation like this, continues to be somewhat fluid. I understand, Tony Plohetsky, that the shooter, Salvador Ramos, was known by police. That is my understanding as well. We are still trying to get those

investigatory details as well. But Nancy, before I have to go to this news conference, I do want to just take a minute to talk about this community here in Ubalde and just the amount of grief, as you can imagine, this is a town of 16,000 people. The local funeral home, Nancy, just announced that they are providing free services to all of the victims of yesterday's tragedy, really underscoring how this community is trying to come together and support each other as best they can. But to say that it has been ripped apart is obviously an understatement. You know, Tony Blahetsky, you and I have been friends and colleagues for a very, very long time. You have been in my life since the twins were born and knew of them and about them when they were this age, the fourth grade.

The scene of the parents running into the shooting yesterday just broke my heart. I mean, tell me the scene. What are you seeing? So, Nancy, I mean, tragically, it is my understanding and this of course makes perfect sense these little children did not have unlike maybe me or you or most adults identifying features and so it is my understanding that authorities are using dna to try to identify these children. But Nancy, tragically, and this is just almost impossible to speak, but authorities were also interviewing parents. What type of clothing did you send your child to school in this morning? And using that level of information to try to figure out which of these children

was among the living and among the dead. I saw parents going in and out giving DNA to help identify the children. And I think that some of them were facially disfigured in the shooting. The little children huddled together, sitting next to their best friends, as this guy, Salvador Ramos, may he burn in hell, said, you're going to die, is what he said to them. You know, Tony, I know you're rushing off.

I just wanted to tell you, my twins are graduating middle school. And last night in the rain, I was out hammering in yard letters, congratulations, for them to see this morning. And while I was hammering, I thought of these parents that will never see their children grow up. I know the town and the families are torn apart, Tony. Absolutely, Nancy. You go to your presser, Tony. I'll circle back with you when the press conference is done. Tony Plohetsky joining me, investigative reporter, Austin American-Statesman and KVUE.

I have an all-star panel, but I'm going to start with my long time friend and colleague, Karen Stark, joining me, New York psychologist. Karen, I just don't even know what to say. It just, one school shooting after the next, after the next, and now fourth graders, Karen. Nancy, heartbreaking, just heartbreaking and this guy he really fits the profile of the kind of person who commits this crime somebody who's an outsider isolated clearly prepared as soon as he turned 18 he went and got those guns and knew exactly what he was going to do. It's not an impulse at all. And it's horrific that these parents, when I think about not being able to identify your own children,

having to give DNA, not having answers. And it reminds me of September 11th of any attack where there are mass people who are dead and you don't know, is your child alive and dead? So stunningly heartbreaking. Another time you and I were together, both of us in New York on 911. With me, Karen Stark, New York psychologist. Joining us, you can find her at karenstark.com. Karen with a C. You know, Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics,

Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star of a new series, Body Bags, with Joe Scott Morgan on iHeart. I just, I hardly know where to start, Joe Scott. I mean, at times like these, when I was confronted with mass murders as an assistant district attorney, I felt like I would go in machine mode and just start processing evidence and analyzing what I knew to prove the case, I cannot even imagine analyzing this scene. It's overwhelming. It's overwhelming mentally and spiritually too. I mean, it bores down into your soul, but you have to.

You have to set your face like Flint, as they say, and drive them forward and process this because as difficult as it is to do. And just for a moment, let me reflect back. I had a good friend of mine that was at the Oklahoma City bombing and he was a print specialist and they had we didn't have DNA back then. And so you remember the the the nursery got wiped out there. He had to go to the home and dust for latent prints on toys and then go back and compare those prints. And so that's what these investigators are.

I saw him in front of a crowd of about a thousand investigators weeping. This has on the people that practice and have to do this. But, you know, going back to kind of stealing yourself here and setting your face, you're given the badge and you're given this responsibility for a reason. You have to go in and process this scene as a homicide because this is what it is. It's just on a grander scale. It is a mass homicide. And each one, you honor the dead by treating each one of these little children as an individual homicide. And they have to be processed individually because you don't know when there's going to be an opportunity to learn more about this case.

It might come up in trial. You never know what's going if this is the last case you will ever work. And you have to put forth every bit of effort, gathering every bit of data you own. You owe that to the families and you certainly owe that to these children as well. Take a listen to our friend Amy Robach. The gunman opening fire as soon as he stepped on school grounds. Students reportedly scrambling out of windows to escape. We just hear all kinds of gun shots going off like non-stop like constantly gunshots and the world here all scared on the ground fearing for our lives. Fourth grader Jordan Legis telling ABC News about the moments when the

gunman began firing shots at his classroom. When he sees the students and our teacher that's when he starts shooting at the window and the wall right there. So he starts shooting it all up. All kinds of smoke is like in the room as we're in there. Authorities confirming the suspect was armed with an AR-15 style rifle. Sources telling ABC News all the victims at the school died in the same location inside the school. That tells me in one classroom. Can you imagine the same? Take a listen to our cut six, our friends at WFAA.

Parents arriving at the school are telling ABC News they don't have much information right now, and at least a few are anxiously trying to find their kids. How long have you been looking for her today? Since it happened. What are you worried about right now? She may not be alive. Have you heard anything?

Nothing. I don't know where, other than she's not in San Antonio. When parents drop their kids off at school, they have every expectation to know that they're going to be able to pick their child up when that school day ends. And there are families who are in mourning right now. And the state of Texas is in mourning with them. Police say that the shooter acted alone. I was just thinking about the parents out in the parking lot and reporters asking them,

what are you thinking? And they say, whether my child is dead or alive. And I immediately flash in my mind to my children's school where they have gone since pre-K and pacing back and forth wondering, what's going on in there? Are John, David, and Lucy dead or alive? I don't even know how the parents had the wherewithal to speak. With me is David Katz, former senior special agent with the DEA, founder and CEO of Global

Security Group, Inc. He is an active shooter response expert. David Katz, take a listen to our cut for this is the Texas governor. Bottom line is this, however, and that is when parents drop their kids off at school, they have every expectation to know that they're going to be able to pick their child up when that school day ends. And there are families who are in mourning right now, and the state of Texas is in mourning with them for the reality that these parents are not going to be able to pick up their children. Our job is multifold.

First, to make sure we address exactly what happened to this crime scene. And then second, to make sure we take that information and do everything that is necessary to ensure that crime scenes like this are not going to be repeated in the future and that we're going to be able to ensure the safety and security of our schools. To you, David Katz, thank you for being with us again. Active shooter response expert at Global Security Group, Inc. David, second verse, same as the first. I know we can learn from the crime scene. That is without doubt.

But once we get that knowledge, David, what are we going to do with it? Nothing. Because when you don't know a horse, look at the track record. How many school shootings, mass school shootings, have we suffered in this country? And what, if anything, has been done about it? Before I go totally ballistic, yes, schools now know that they should keep all the entrances and exits locked during the day. Many of them have metal detectors.

Many of them have one point of entry that is secured. So you can see who is coming in and out. But other than that, really, David, what have we learned? And what can we learn from this shooting there at Robb Elementary? Well, Nancy, I'm like you. I'm just devastated. I also have grown kids where my youngest will be going into the fourth grade. And I cannot imagine. I better put, I don't want to imagine it.

We know exactly and I mean exactly how to prevent these things from happening. We just simply don't want to imagine it. We know exactly, and I mean exactly, how to prevent these things from happening. We just simply don't do it. Let's start with something that is just so basic, so axiomatic to security. You mentioned security. You mentioned points of entry. How about making it, you can't make it impossible to force into anywhere, but you can make it extremely difficult. Apparently, the shooter engaged police officers outside the school and was still able to gain entry. Therefore, it is clearly easier or was easier for him to gain entry to that school than

it was to enter a jewelry store in Brooklyn, New York. You have to make it physical security first, then you talk about your drills, your preparation, your training, perhaps arm guards, and I have a lot of great ideas. You know, we do assessments at Global all the time, but the first step, if you're a parent listening to this show, demand that your school prove to you that someone could not get in the way this mystery got into that school. And how, David, do you think you got in? Well, that's one thing they haven't identified yet. I mean, I am praying it wasn't simply an open door or an unlocked door because, you know,

I know I live about four hours from, a little less than four hours from, you know, Uvalde, and I've been out there. And often communities like that where everyone knows everyone else and by the way those police officers responding to the scene they probably had children in that school if you can imagine that that horror but I don't know the culture there it was just simply simply an unlocked door or if it was someone who just buzzed in or if he was able to just fire through the glass and get in that way that should be you should not be able to force entry without a determined effort using tools or other methods.

And, and it's not hard to do and it's not expensive to do. Why have we not done that? That's the question that everyone needs to ask themselves. It's not a matter of putting armed guards in every school and be nice to, nice to have that ability, but financially many districts can't, but we certainly can lock the damn door. Well put. Lock the damn door. I mean,

you're right. Every time I look at where the twins may go to school, I check out security first. I deal with everything else after that. With me, Kathleen Murphy, family lawyer joining us at North Carolina, ncdomesticlaw.com. Jump in, Kathleen. It's very difficult for me to jump in after listening to David because my first thought is not locking the doors, although we should do that. assault rifles even available in this day and age, such that this 18-year-old could go get them and terrorize these poor families. What are we going to do about that? You know, it's such a huge, huge problem, and Congress is hearing about it. Take a listen to Senator Chris Murphy begging on the floor of our Congress. What are we doing?

Why are you here? If not to solve a problem as this. This isn't inevitable. These kids weren't unlucky. This only happens in this country and nowhere else. Nowhere else do little kids go to school thinking that they might be shot that day.

Nowhere else do parents have to talk to their kids as I have had to do about why they got locked into a bathroom and told to be quiet for five minutes just in case a bad man entered that building. Nowhere else does that happen except here in the United States of America and it is a choice. It is our choice to let it continue. What are we doing? Now listen to our cut 18 as he literally begs. Sandy Hook will never ever be the same.

This community in Texas will never ever be the same. Why? Why are we here? If not to try to make sure that fewer schools and fewer communities go through what Sandy Hook has gone through, what Uvalde is going through. Our heart is breaking for these families. Every ounce of love and thoughts and prayers we can send, we are sending. But I'm here on this floor to beg,

to literally get down on my hands and knees and beg my colleagues. Find a path forward here. Work with us to find a way to pass laws that make this less likely. And talk about salt being rubbed into the wounds. Take a listen to our cut 15.

This is Fred Guttenberg. He is the father of the Parkland victim, Jamie Guttenberg, speaking to MSNBC. But I'm shaking. But I'd like to tell them all to go F off. Because what they did, what they do, the way they politicize guns and violence led us to this day where, and I don't know what the latest number is. I think we have 14 dead parents,

loved ones who their world is spinning, who right now have to think, how am I going to plan a funeral? Who right now have to think, what kind of casket? Who right now have to think, all I did was send them to school. And I have to plan their funeral. And I have to write a eulogy.

I have to comfort those who I love, my other children, my spouse, my friends, my neighbors. I have to figure out how to go forward. I'll be honest, Nicole, it took me a good solid 24 hours before my world stopped spinning to the point where I really kind of grasped what was happening. And another Parkland shooting parent, the parent of Joaquin Oliver. This is Manuel Oliver speaking in our Cut 14 lesson. If people were deaf, at least I will have a reason to understand what's going on. It's wars and death. It's about money. It's about interest.

It's about power. Our politicians, our House of Congress and Senate, they do nothing after this. They think they're somehow outside of the equation of probably getting shot or their kids. But you know what? It's going to take more kids dying. Or maybe they won't react, even with more kids dying. It's not only been five years, it's been more than 250,000 victims of gun violence since my son Joaquin, my beautiful son Joaquin, my innocent son Joaquin was shot four times with an AR-15. And today we saw how an 18-year-old in Texas was able to carry a weapon and kill kids inside their school. Shame on any politician, corporation, celebrity. All those celebrities that

came out four years ago. Where are you today? Where are you now today? Because I'm still here. David Ketch is joining me for me. Former Senior Special Agent with the DEA, CEO of Global Security Group, and active shooter response expert. Describe for our viewers and listeners, what is an AR-15? An AR-15, and I know the parlance is to call it an assault rifle, but that's not correct.

An assault rifle, by definition, has the ability to go fully automatic. Still makes, the effect is just more rapid fire. It still does not diminish the lethality of a semi-automatic rifle in the hands of a violent individual like this. The AR-15 is basically the civilian version of the M16 rifle that was used in Vietnam. It is not fully automatic, although it can fire rapidly in a semi-automatic fashion. Invariably, the argument's going to come down to the gun itself

and whether we should allow this type of firearm to be purchased legally. I would suggest this. There's going to be heated debate on both sides of that issue but one thing i think we all regardless of party can agree on that we should make it incredibly difficult if not outright impossible for a person who is you i'm going to i'm going to i'll go out i don't need to go on a limb i know from past experience, Ramos, was known to the police. I guarantee it.

He was known to the schools. I guarantee it. He was known to the social media community. I guarantee it. And yet, there is no mechanism by which we can stop someone like this who basically is announcing to the world, I am about to do something really horrific, and that person can still walk into a gun shop and purchase a weapon legally. At least we can agree on this. People like that who are announcing their intention should be on some sort of list where they cannot ask an additional scrutiny and possibly just to preserve due process,

but at least have some level of scrutiny to make sure that can't happen. Well, you're right. And what I'm thinking of, based on what you're saying, is not just a background check, but a social media check. I mean, look, employers do social media checks before they hire somebody. I do. I want to find out what their history is, not just what they're showing me at the time of the interview. I want to find out who they are and what face they present to other people. Because in this case, we now know that he actually bragged to a girl online. I'm going to tell you a little secret, he says. I'm about to. And lays it out. He was known to

police for numerous violent arguments with his mother. She's no angel, apparently with drug problems of her own. But he was, as David Katz is stating, known to police. He bragged online. There's no question about it, as so many school shooters do. Joe Scott Morgan, I want to hear your thoughts. You know, Nancy, I think that there was planning that went into this, and this is why I believe this. This fellow lived in this town, very small town, and his grandmother allegedly had worked at this location.

What do we know about elementary schools, particularly when you're talking about K through 4? When it gets to be about 1130 in the morning, people's guard goes down at that point. Why? Well, you begin the lunchroom cycle. And so you have to march these kids down the hallway in order to get them to the lunch where they can eat and they eat and shifts essentially. He was probably aware of that, aware of the timing. I would think that at that point in time, he would have known that that's a vulnerable time in which to enter the school. And why an elementary school? You know, he was allegedly a student at the high school in town. And word is, is that he was upset over the fact that his friends had graduated and he had not graduated

at the school. And so is he striking out at the community at large because he thinks that the youngest and the most helpless among us, he's going to go in and actually slaughter them. He went there with purpose, Nancy, and that goes to a bigger issue that is actually Karen's bailiwick. That goes to a bigger issue where this guy's got some serious psychopathology going on, Nancy. Well, you may say serious. I believe you said psychopathology. But unless it rises to insanity, to hell with him. All right?

That's just the deal. That's the law. Nancy. And it's right. Jump in, Karen Stark. Yeah, it's not the kind of psychopathology that you're thinking. I mean, these are people that don't have that kind of history of severe mental illness. They bear a grudge, just like what Joe Scott said, that everyone graduates but him.

He piles insult on top of insult, and he begins to feel rage, and it's very planned out. It's something that he knew he was going to do. Turns 18, gets those guns, knew where he was going, knew what he wanted to do because he joins this horrific brotherhood of killers who have decided that they're going to take their rage out on innocent children. That's what happens. You know, Kathleen Murphy, joining us out of North Carolina at ncdomesticlaw.com, we have been told that he had been bullied and made fun of because he was poor. All right.

We were poor. I was poor. My mother was poor. She never had anything they didn't make on their sewing machine. Long story short, what did he do? Did he go out and get a job to make money? What did he do? And listen to this, Kathleen Murphy, an Instagram

friend of Remo's said he sent photos of a receipt for the gun from the gun manufacturer. We also know that he put photos of the firearm and the ammunition online. I just am outraged, Nancy, but you have to hear this personal story. My son is in 10th grade. He was the only student in a 1,500 to 2,000 student high school that reported that there were guns in the men's bathroom and that the children

were taking photos of these guns in the men's bathroom or the boys' bathroom and sharing it among the other students. My kid left campus, called me immediately. We called the police. Those students are now out of the school. And problem is it's so close to home why are we working from the bottom up why don't we start from the top get rid of these kinds of guns because you and i both know looking at the psychopathology of each individual person before they get a gun it's a joke it's a joke well let's address what you just said, David Katz. I can tell you why these guns are not going to be outlawed in the U.S., okay? Because our Congress is paralyzed by one of the strongest lobbies in the world,

and that is the gun lobby. So we're not going to get rid of the guns. So now what can we do? Why can't we? Have you ever heard of a cooling off period? For instance, you just can't walk up and get a marriage license. It's not instantaneous. Why is it that there can't be a cooling off period from the time you apply for a gun to the time you get it a social media check a background a check david's cats what is your opinion on that you're the active shooter response expert well you know first of all every time anyone buys a firearm you you go through there's an fbi check that must be However, all that check will do is show whether you have a conviction or a criminal offense

that will preclude you from owning firearms. That's the one thing. But that doesn't show you if, by the way, the police have been called to your house 37 times because you threatened violence against your grandmother. So it doesn't call. It doesn't have any any provision for tracking whether a school psychologist said this kid is out of his freaking mind. It doesn't have any way to figure out if your neighbors have called because you've done

something else to to to to create a level of concern with respect to that. And that's what has to change. Because, look, I understand. I'm probably on a different side of the argument with respect to firearms ownership than many that several of us talking right now rather than just bang our heads together why don't we say this at least let's start here at least let's pass something because i always judge law When people talk about legislation, would the lawyer you're suggesting have prevented this crime from occurring? That's a good place to start. What about it, Kathleen Murphy? I am saying that in North Carolina, you have to wait a whole year just to be divorced.

Why can't we wait a whole year and make sure we do a proper investigation. And David, I agree with everything that you said. Why don't we start here? Because the reality of this issue, for as much as I am seeing it from a mother's perspective, from a lawyer's perspective, it's got to start somewhere. And these are good suggestions. Right now, our prayers are with the families of those who lost their children and the teachers that were killed in yet another school shooting. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.

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