Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 2-year-old tot girl found naked, cold, DEAD, wrapped in rug!

Episode Date: April 5, 2021

Police are called to a home in Saint Paul, Minnesota. Parents say they have had an incident. Melody Vang, 2, is found dead on the home's back porch wrapped in a blanket. Her body is naked, except for a diaper. Her 29-year-old mother, Ciashia Lee, is charged with second-degree murder without intent.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jen Lilley - Actress, Singer, and Nationally Recognized Child Advocate, jenlilley.com @Jen_Lilley Dr. John DeGarmo - Leading Foster Care Expert and Founder/Director of The Foster Care Institute, Author: "The Church and Foster Care" DrJohnDeGarmoFosterCare.com @DrJohnDeGarmo Ashley Wilcott - Judge and trial attorney, anchor at Court TV, www.ashleywillcott.com \  Dr. Teresa Gil, Ph.D. - Professor of Psychology and Psychotherapist, 25 years Working with Child Abuse and Trauma Victims, Author: "Women Who Were Sexually Abused as Children: Mothering, Resilience, and Protecting the Next Generation" Teresa Gil PHD.com  Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network  Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline.com Investigative Reporter, Writer/Fact Checker, Lead Stories dot Com, Twitter: @swimmie2009  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. How does a two-year-old little girl end up dead on the back porch of the family home and nobody seems to have noticed? I want answers. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. What happened to baby Melody? What a panel to try and apply logic to an illogical situation. In the balance hangs this little girl, Melody Vang.

First of all, take a listen to this. Officers responded at 2.30 a.m. Sunday to a duplex in the 1000 block of East 3rd Street on a report of an unknown incident. Upon arrival, they found the girl, naked except for a diaper, unconscious and unresponsive, with large bruises on her face. The girl's father told police he'd rolled her in a blanket and rug on the family's back porch so the other children wouldn't see the body. Paramedics pronounced her dead at the scene. Rolled her in a rug and laid her on the back porch? With me, an all-star panel. First of all, my friend and colleague from Hallmark, Jen Lilly. You know her as an actress, a singer, a star, but she is also a nationally recognized

child advocate. And you can find her at Jen Lilly.com and on Twitter at Jen underscore Lilly. Dr. John DeGarmo, leading foster care expert, founder, director of the Foster Care Institute, author of The Church and Foster Care. You can find him at drjohndegarmofostercare.com. Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor, Court TV at ashleywilcott.com. Dr. Teresa Gill, PhD, professor of psychology, psychotherapist, 25 years working with child abuse and trauma victims, author of Women Who Are Sexually Abused as Children, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, star on the True Crime Network in Poisonous Liaisons, death investigator joining us, Alexis Hresturesh at CrimeOnline.com, investigative reporter,

and special guest joining us, Daphne Young, the National Chief Communications Officer at ChildHelp.org. First of all, you heard our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Now, take a listen to this. On January 10th, a St. Paul landlord saw disturbing bruises on a toddler at his tenant's home. He took photos and reported the incident to Child Protection. About 12 hours later, in the early hours of January 11th, a man called the police non-emergency line and officers arrived at the home at 2.30 a.m. Officers were led to the backyard porch where they found the deceased body of Melody Vang, wearing only a diaper and wrapped in bedding and a rug. So disturbing on so many levels. But to know that someone actually tried to help this little girl hours before she is found dead dead, and no one helped, just rubs salt into the wound.

Imagine a two-year-old little girl. Just last night, I posted a throwback photo of the twins. And they were about 14 to 16 months old, almost two. When I think of a child that young, that helpless, that vulnerable, that sensitive, that sweet, and to imagine this baby girl, Melody, naked except for a diaper rolled up and a rug off the floor left on the back porch.

Are we going to actually stand for that in our society? Because it doesn't matter if you're the richest country in the world. It doesn't matter about the education levels. None of that matters. What matters is how we treat those most defenseless, most vulnerable, the weakest and less cunning in our society. And if this is an example, then we are not the leader of the free world. To Alexis Teresichuk, what happened to this little girl? This little girl had a tragic life from the minute she was born.

She was born. Wait a minute, wait a minute. Before I get to her birth, which I'm going to circle back on, I need to ask you exactly how police got there, who called, why was there a hang-up call, and why was the little girl on the back porch wrapped in a rug? Her father called the police. He called the police and said that there was an incident in the home and they needed to come.

An incident? Yes. Didn't explain, didn't prepare them at all for what happened. The police arrived, and he said to them, I need y'all to be quiet because nobody knows that our daughter is dead. The police were stunned. This was not, but he just flat out told them that. Okay, Alexis, you just told me something I didn't know. Let me understand this.

You've got a dead baby wearing nothing but a diaper, and this is in St. Paul, Minnesota. Yeah. In January, it's freezing. Yep. And they've got her outside in nothing but a diaper wrapped in a rug. And they actually say, shh, shh, nobody knows she's dead. Did you just tell me that?

I did. Okay. You know, right there, I've got to go to a shrink. Psychotherapist, professor of psychology, Dr. Teresa Gill. Isn't that a little confusion on priorities? Well, it's interesting because the reason he said it is because there were five other children in the home. And one of the reasons he said is that she started to smell because she was going into rigor mortis and they didn't want the other children to know. So it's interesting how

they're protecting five children, but would abuse a child, another child in the family and, you know, kill her. And the other interesting thing that I thought was how sometimes in families, one child is the identified child to take all the abuse. Not that the other children aren't suffering because they're witnessing what their parents can do. So that keeps the other children in their place. It stops them from acting out. It keeps them quiet. It keeps them separate and away from their parents because they know what their parents are capable of doing. But it's not unusual to pick the one child who takes the abuse and is the target of the abuse. And it sounds like little Melody was the target of abuse.

And it's also interesting that the second leading cause of homicide for children is within the preschool age, you know, between 2 and 5. You know, Dr. Teresa Gill, everything you just said, I felt like a sack of bricks just hit me, just hearing. And everything you said is true. But it's just, let me just say sobering as a euphemism to hear everything you said. Dr. Gill, did the father actually say the child was beginning to smell? That is what it said in the newspaper report.

Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, if that's true, then the child would have been dead for a period of hours at least. Yeah, and we work on timelines, don't we, Nancy? What I do know is, in fact, that the report said that the child was in rigor mortis. And what this means is that the child

had been deceased long enough so that rigidity had set in and we measure these things. And at that point in time, you're looking potentially, potentially, we don't know to what degree, because this is coming from a reporter, not an actual scientific examination, but you begin to think about rigidity. We're looking at maybe six to eight hours at this point in time, which is striking when you think about it. And one more thing, Nancy, that night in St. Paul, it was 26 degrees, 26 degrees in St. Paul, Minnesota on that night. And this baby is in a diaper. Just keep that in mind.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, we are talking about a two-year-old little girl. That's really hitting home. I just was looking at a photo and posted it of my twins at about that age, how little they are. How defenseless, how weak. This little girl was bruised across her body a black eye cuts and scratches and according to reports rigor had set in when the police arrived the parents tell cops they rolled her body in

bedding and a rug so the other children wouldn't see but But you know what? The reality is Daphne Young joining me, the National Chief Communications Officer with ChildHelp.org. I bet the children saw the beatings happening. What, they don't want to see a rolled up in a rug, but what about all the beatings this little baby took? Absolutely. I think your therapist said it best, where it's like a Cinderella syndrome. You pick one child as the scapegoat and all the children watch that child be tortured and harmed. And they said they put her in a place called the timeout closet. Don't have a timeout closet where your child is in a dark enclosed space for supposed discipline. And when those kids see that, it traumatizes them.

As was expressed, it makes them feel, I'm next. And sometimes parents even pit the children against one another so that the children get abused by their own siblings because it's the only way to stay safe and not to be the victim yourself. And it's heartbreaking. Guys, take a listen to our friend David Sheeman at WCCO CBS Minnesota. The same little girl that neighbor saw was found dead on her family's back porch Sunday in St. Paul. Officers were checking on the home after police say a man had asked for help over a non-emergency line, then hung up.

The girl's father was the one who called, and he told officers when they arrived he thought his daughter was dead. Anytime a three-year-old is dead on a scene, it's suspicious. Joining me right now, another special guest, is Jen Lilly, my friend at Hallmark, actress, singer, nationally recognized child abuse advocate. Jen Lilly, thank you for being with us. Hallmark, actress, singer, nationally recognized child abuse advocate. Jen Lilly, thank you for being with us. If it weren't for you, Jen, I would not have even known about Melody. What brought Melody's story to you?

Actually, what brought this story to my attention was Dr. John DeGarmo, who I know is also on the line. Dr. DeGarmo and I have been working federally to stop premature reunification, which is when a child is reunified with their parent too soon. That's when you see these deaths occur. And obviously, this is a case where this child never should have died. And further, the complications of that are that now the siblings have reentered care, and they are going to experience so much more trauma.

Now they're having to deal with the death of their sister. So this is an ongoing situation that has victims that are still living that could have been prevented if premature reunification had not taken place. Can I ask you, Jen, why you are focused on premature unification? In other words, giving the baby back to the parents that have already abused them to the point the child's taken out of the home. Then why in the world would you put the child back in the home? One of the reasons I'm so focused on that, Nancy, is because of the statistics that do come out of foster care. So currently in foster care, you have over 437,000 children in foster care. Of those who end up aging out of the system, 50% will have a substance abuse problem.

97% won't get a college degree. 46% will be homeless at least once by the age of 26. And 25% won't graduate high school. Furthermore, 80% of inmates on death row were in foster care. Seven out of 10 girls who aged out of the foster care system will become pregnant before the age of 21 and their children will end up in foster care.

And 60% of the sex trafficking victims we have in this nation came from foster care. And so foster care is a cycle of abuse and we see that in this case. You know the mother Lee, she actually came from foster care and that was something that she blamed on her reasoning for murdering this child. You know she was abused. And I think in order to solve the foster care problem, you have to focus on rehabilitating these children as children,

which is something that Child Health does so well. I'm so excited that DAPI is on this call. Child Health is an incredible organization. I'm so glad you know about them. But, you know, unless these children receive love, unless they go into loving foster homes, then you're going to have outcomes like this. And the problem, the other problem is that 90% of children who have five or more foster care placements in their lifetime will enter the justice system. So you've got these five surviving siblings, excuse me if it's not five, I believe it's five surviving siblings who have now reentered care. And furthermore, all six of

them were in the same loving foster home. Do you know how hard it is to place six siblings in one home? So they were in a safe and stable foster home for the last two years, all of Melody's life. And now these five are reentering care. And if they go to five or more foster care placements, so now they're in the placement two, three more, 90%, their odds are 90% of them will end up in the justice system. Guys, take a listen to our friend Tyler Hunt at Crime Online. Investigators interviewed the child's father and her mother, 29-year-old Kiasha Lee. Lee admitted that she routinely abused Vang far more than her other children. In the hours leading up to Vang's death, Lee said she hit, punched, and scratched her daughter several times because her crying woke up the baby. She also said the victim had been spoiled in foster care and was prone to

falling on the floor and crying when she didn't get her way. She said she beat her often and put her in a timeout closet as punishment, adding that the girl's father didn't know half of what she did physically and mentally to harm the toddler. To even say those words, my husband doesn't know half of what I did to her. Just, Ashley Wilcott, judge, trial lawyer, anchor at Court TV. Wait in. Nancy, I've got so much to say. So first of all, I have to say I completely agree with all the comments that have been made. And I so appreciate that Jen Lilly is someone who will advocate as someone who's in the media and has a media presence as a TV personality, TV star. And here's why. Because half the battle is education. I serve as a judge in juvenile court and repeatedly these things happen. They continue to happen. It's not okay.

And nobody should be able to live with this or sleep when they hear about these crimes, but it continues to happen. So we've got to continue educating people about all the statistics around it and what needs to happen. Next, let me say this. One other thing people have to keep in mind is judges have to apply the law. And so sometimes the laws are such that if a parent rehabilitates and does everything to remove the risk in the home originally, the judge may not have a legal choice other than to return the children. However, in this case, to have someone who has done this level and amount of physical abuse to a child and just return children for parents to have six

children all at once when they've already been abused or neglected, that's a red flag that it's going to happen again, right? You've got to be really cautious in that circumstance. And they weren't. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, we're talking about the death of a beautiful two-year-old little girl who was singled out by mommy for horrific abuse she is found dead on the back porch wrapped in a rug yes mommy admits to it but daddy stood by and let it happen as far as i'm concerned daphne young they can both get a one-way ticket straight to hL. One way. And don't pass go because he called his brother before calling the police or anyone. So he was strategizing on how to cover this up.

And we are so honored to have someone like Jen Lilly. She won't toot her own horn, but she is a phenomenal foster mom, a phenomenal adoptive mom through ChildHelp. She is our ChildHelp celebrity ambassador. And she is the example probably of the type of wonderful spoiling foster mom. You know, I was horrified to hear this woman say that her child was spoiled in foster care. What she was was loved, treated well, made to feel safe. Sure, she's crying right now because she was just ripped away from all of that and

handed to two people fresh out of rehab for amphetamines and right out of a shelter. You want to talk about premature reunification. These people were in crisis and they were messed up and they were handed this precious child and these group of kids from probably a great place. When you think about someone like Jen as a foster mom, and then you think throwing them back with these, you know, people that are drug addicts and, and in this awful scenario, it's just, that is the place where, you know, the system has to step in and create safety for these kids. You know, and they knew the foster care parents were wonderful. And DFACS, Department of Family and Children Services, knew that,

but sent them back into this hellhole anyway, basically sending Melody, two-year-old Melody, to her own death. This little girl is dead. Who is going to answer up for it? The judge that will allow them to be sent back in? The DFAX worker that said, sure, they've been rehabilitated? Take a listen to our friends at Crime Online. John Vang, Melody's father, denied seeing Lee strike the girl that night, but the 42-year-old admitted to investigators that he had seen her do so in the past.

He accused the child of being a drama queen and resistant to discipline. According to the complaint, Melody's older siblings told a social worker that both parents had a history of physical abuse and kept Melody locked in a closet for hours on end as punishment for misbehaving, sometimes being forced to stuff food into her diaper so she would have something to eat at night. One child described seeing Bang strike Melody in the face with his fist about a week before her death and that his parents would sometimes beat Melody with a wire hanger. You know, there were times, Alexis, Therese, Chuck, and we've discussed this before, when I would go in front of a jury and I could hardly say the words. They would be so awful. But hearing the report on what happened to this child, just, it's, it just is almost too

much to take in. What else do we know? Why would they send this child back into the home? Well, their excuse is that the parents had finished up their rehab. They had, they had completed their addiction treatment and they, they were clean and sober. But the interesting, well, I don't know if interesting is the right word. The thing is, the situation is nobody checks on these children. Once they are reunited with the parents, in this particular case, I don't know about anywhere else, but in this particular case, they were reunited with their parents and no one followed up to check on them. They said that that was not the procedure that they do so they just put these kids in with parents who were fresh out of rehab and fresh up treatment when so many people that have drug problems relapse they successfully complete

rehab and then they relapse and these kids were just left and this wasn't like these two were vegged out on pot no they were into methamphetamines. That makes you crazy. Nancy, can I jump in? I got to tell you as a judge, here's one thing that we can do as judges. We can be creative. We can still follow the law, but one of the things I can be creative about is say, listen, maybe it's time for reunification, but as a condition, I need to know that you all are going to check on them every day, once a week, and report back to the court. Judges can be creative to make sure that children are safe and still remain within the requirement of the law. That's an excellent idea. Jen Lilly, that's certainly not what happened here. No, absolutely not. And the fact that I

have a daughter who's almost two and I have a two-year-old boy, it just shakes me to the core that she stuffed food in her diaper. I mean, that she would have the forethought, you know, the survival thought as a two-year-old, I have to store this food for later. That's insane. I thought it was interesting when I read that in the CPS report, the worker said that one of the older children was worried about going home because it was the first time his mom and dad, who also had another baby. So they had an eight-month-old that was not in foster care. So while the other five were in foster care, they had another child.

And they said, my parents never had six children all at once. So here you have a little one that is keenly aware that they're going into a vulnerable and volatile situation. And that it was put in the report that the child said it by the worker, but the worker didn't take heed. And there was one other thing that happened where Melody was not bonding to the worker, but the worker didn't take heed. And there was one other thing that happened where Melody was not bonding to the mother in one of the visitations. And the mother had mentioned it, that somehow she felt rejected by her child.

And the worker said, she'll warm up to you. But children know who's safe and who's not safe. There's a thing called interception. It's what you like almost psychically feel if someone is safe to go near. And if a mother is angry or depressed or has a mental, and her body is constricted, and it, you know, stops her from breathing or holds her body tight, a little two-year-old is going to pick up on that and know that it's not safe to get close to that person. And those were two indicators right there from the children that this was not a safe home, and it was not listened to. And a child's inability to get close to a parent should be a barometer that something is not okay,

that the relationship is not in sync. You're hearing Dr. Teresa Gill, professor of psychology and psychotherapist. To Dr. John Degarmo, weigh in, doctor. This is an issue that I came across in January, early January, right after the incident happened. And I immediately started reaching out to journalists. I immediately started reaching out to senators and legislators in Minnesota. And I fell upon deaf ears, fell upon deaf ears. And I thought to myself, I can't let this happen again. I can't let this happen again.

I've had over 60-plus children come through my home with a foster parent. I've had as many as 11 kids in my house at the same time because the system is failing children. There's not enough homes, more children flooding into a foster care system, not enough good homes. And many times agencies feel pressured to reunify the children back into the homes because again, there's not enough homes. And this is what result, a tragic result. Jen gave the wonderful, the true statistics earlier on. I want to add this statistic as well. And this is what result, a tragic result. Jen gave the wonderful, the true statistics earlier on. I want to add this statistic as well. And I'm very much pro-reunification. Reunification can happen wonderfully when a child is reunified with birth parents. But 50% of children in foster

care are reunified with the birth parents. Of that 50%, Nancy, 20 to 30% come back in foster care because it did not go right. And those children who come back in the care are far more traumatized. As a foster parent myself, I've had so many children come to my home who go back to their family members and then come back to my house far more traumatized, filled with more anxiety. Melody should be a rallying cry for our nation to fix the foster care system. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. To Dr. John DeGarmo, Jen Lilly, Dr. Teresa Gill, Daphne Young,

I only have anecdotal examples. I don't have the statistics that you have in all of your studies, but I am completely against parental reunification because sure, you may want a second chance with your child. But that child's life has already been forever tainted. Because whatever the parent did the first time. I mean, why do we treat children like they're part of an experiment? Why would you give a child a second dose of poison? I don't get why there is reunification. Nancy, I want to add that two of the three children I've adopted from foster care are third-generation foster care, much like Melody's mother, which means their parents and their grandparents were also in the foster care system, and the system failed them in some fashion. In fact, my daughter's

birth mother was prostituted out by age nine. So sometimes it's a generational cycle. When these children return home, the cycle can continue for the next generation. I do want to add, though, there can be those times when those parents are able to heal from their own pain able to heal from their own anxiety i'm sorry to garmo i just had to roll my eyes at you yeah maybe sometimes it works maybe but the stats are totally against it you just told me 50 of children are returned to their parents right but 20 to 30 of those children land back in foster. That's correct. What does that mean to me? A very slim percentage of reunification works.

Why risk it? Look, I know you guys are the experts. I know you have the stats. But I know what I know. And I know Melody is dead because of reunification. And her brothers and sisters are going to grow up knowing that their sister was murdered by mommy and daddy stood by and let it happen because of reunification.

Why use children as experiments? If they want another run at parenthood, have another kid. Try that. I don't even condone that. I don't think you get a second chance to destroy a child's life or murder them. That's a philosophical question that turns real in cases like Melody reunited with her drug abusing parents and mommy ends up killing her. Guys, take a listen to this. Court records show child protection services took Melody from her parents after she was born in September 2018 and she spent the next

two years in foster care with her siblings until 2020. According to court documents, the children were returned to Lee and Vang, Melody's father, after both parents completed chemical dependency treatment and mental health evaluations. A child protection worker wrote in a June 2020 report that Lee said Melody was confused about being home, noting she was doing well with Vang but was having a hard time with Lee. The older children reported they were happy to be home, but one expressed worry that it was the first time his mom and dad, who had another baby, had parented all six children at once. How many times does it take before we learn the lesson? Does anybody remember this case of Trinity Chandler? Take a listen to this. This is from WXYZ.

To me, it looked like healing from like two black eyes. It was two. October is when I made the report with Michigan State Police for the incident on the face. It was a couple months prior that I had seen her with marks under her eyes. It was obvious abuse. They could have at least taken her and had her stay somewhere safe until their investigation was over. That was little Trinity, much like Melody, spotted with bruising and black eyes. She stays in the home. This is what happens.

Take a listen to our friends at WXYZ Detroit. This is truly a sickening crime and even more appalling. We've now learned Child Protective Services did a welfare check on Trinity the very day before she died and they discovered injuries but still chose not to remove her. During a virtual arraignment, police say Smart is the prime suspect in Trinity's death. Sources confirm the young girl suffered bruises and internal bleeding after being left alone with Smart at Groveland Manor Mobile Home Park in Groveland Township. 29-year-old showing no emotion and giving short answers as he's charged with child abuse and torture.

She ends up dead. Does the name Thomas Valva ring a bell? Take a listen to CBS2. It was no secret the 8-year-old had been suffering. CBS2 obtained abuse complaint records and custody hearing transcripts. Those judges seem like they just didn't care. What about the caseworkers? The CPS caseworkers also, they extremely responsible for what happened to Tammy. 2014 to 2019, 21 911 calls to Nassau police from the couple's Valley stream home, mostly visitation disputes. 2015 contentious divorce battle begins. Court transcripts 2017, judge admonishing the mother Justina, who is representing herself, desperately raising her hand. He has failed to pick up our children 29 times. Biomom begging the judge, don't send him back. And this little boy ends up dead. Well,

there's so many, I don't even know where to pick. Let's go to cut 22, ABC 7. We're talking about AJ. Investigators with the Crystal Lake Police Department telling us that they've been called to the home here in Crystal Lake 17 times just since AJ was born five years ago. Now, this is an ongoing and active investigation here in Lake County. The Crystal Lake Police Department telling us they've had various reports detailing what they call unacceptable living conditions in the past five years, along with alleged drug abuse at the home, and major concerns from the Department of Children and Family Services

for both children's welfare who lived inside of the home. Now, one week since AJ's family says he was last seen inside of his bedroom at this home in Crystal Lake, the search now shifting to the nearby Stearns Woods and Veteran Acres Park, where sources tell us sonar technicians were called to check out the water, specifically looking for signs of A.J. Of course, A.J. is found dead. And what about little Caitlin? Here's Fox 24.

On Wednesday afternoon, 37-year-old Catherine Horton called 911 to report that her daughter was unresponsive. ENTs transported the young girl to the hospital where she was pronounced dead. Horton's daughter, 12-year-old Caitlin Yazviak, likely died due to medical neglect and suffered excessive pain, according to a preliminary autopsy. She died because of neglect. She died because she was literally bitten by hundreds of lice. That's why she died. Malnutritioned and dead by torture and mommy stood by and let it happen and defects knew. I mean about gabriel hernandez take a listen to cbs2 la in the hours before his death gabriel lay in an emergency room his skull fractured he'd been burned apparently tied up he was missing skin he had bb pellets lodged in his lung and scrotum even though i can't even stand to listen to it. I've got this stack of similar cases of children that DFACS, Department of Family and Children's Services, knows are being tortured, starved, beaten, locked in closets, you name it.

But they're sent back to the home under the euphemism reunification. Daphne, help me. The thing that disturbs me most about this case is you had a window to save a life. So the landlord comes by, guy takes the risk to take photographs and calls Child Protective Services. And here you have the perfect storm of like, hey, I know these people. I saw this situation. I've got pictures. You know, all of you on here, Nancy, as a lawyer, you know, when you've got photographs, that's like, yes, we can move on this. We've got proof.

And they knew these children were in the system, no less. They knew the circumstance. There's already a write-up on these children, files probably through the roof. And 12 hours later, this little girl is dead. And there was a window of 12 hours to come and rescue her. There was a window of the moment that call came in to say, whoa, this is a flagged file. Let's run out there and do something. What happened? What did happen to Jen Lilly joining me, my friend from the Hallmark Channel, nationally recognized child advocate. Jen, what can we do? You know, well, I think first of all, I wonder, Daphne, was that call made to 911?

Yes. You know, was the landlord's call made to 911? I think they called a 611 number to start with. Yeah, so that's a huge problem. But it doesn't matter. The child's black eye was reported. It does not matter. You know, I think one thing that we need to do is we need to evaluate the cases more because sometimes children enter foster care because of neglect. Now, neglect can range from a series of things. Sometimes it's

just a horrible situation where the mom and dad are without a job and they don't have enough food and they haven't gotten welfare and they haven't gotten the wraparound and support services that they need. I think in those cases, reunification is possible because you're not dealing with horrific abuse. You're dealing with a family that's fell on hard times. And I think that really how you solve that is you get wraparound services from the government. I think the church needs to stand up and wrap around these families and love them. I think the solution is getting more safe

and loving licensed foster parents. And I'm not sure who said it, but education you know, education is key. I think that's something that you do so well, Nancy. I think that's something we can all agree on. We have to recruit better foster parents who are willing to take the notes, who are willing to get their heart broken, who are willing to blow the whistle and who are willing to also wrap around the families because if these families aren't getting support, you know, reunification, premature reunification that results in death is going to happen all the time. Jen Lilly, you know what?

You're a better person than me. There's really no doubt about it because you're talking about wrapping the families with love. I want them to go to jail. I don't want them to stay there. That's just where I'm coming from. I agree. I absolutely agree. John DeGarmo, you know, you and Jen Lilly are on a much higher plane than myself.

Because I've seen so many dead children at the hands of their parents, tortured, in comas, in vegetative states for the rest of their lives, covered in cigarette burns and bruises. I don't know why more cases of this ilk are not death penalty cases. Can you give me some kind of answer that we can all understand, not statistics, not theories, how to stop this this nancy those children you mentioned have lived in my home those children have i've had those kids in my home with cigarette burns in their tongue and their genitals i've had that in my home and and it drives me every single day to make the system a better system that's why nan that's why jen and i were in washington dc last july working with legislators letting them know that all those children you just mentioned are children on my radar. We've been speaking to legislators. This is why foster care does not work. As Jen says, you can bring in other services. You can bring in faith-based organizations. You can

bring in the church. It just can't be up to the government to help the foster care system because it's a broken system. The broken system. That is a great idea. What you and Jen are saying to bring in other agencies such as churches to recruit foster families. And I want everyone to please look at the church and foster care. That's by Dr. John DeGarmo. And to you, Dr. Teresa Gill, give me something I can latch on to, some way we can make a difference. Well, I think I work with mothers who have a history of abuse. And I think it's important to remember that they were also children and that their histories of abuse also included physical abuse, neglect, sexual abuse. And I have a quote by Selma Freyberg, and she says that a mother's inability to meet and respond to her child's needs is a mother's whose own cries have

not been heard. And the understanding around that is that if you have unresolved childhood trauma, what you did in terms of defending yourself against the pain and the sadness and the anger connected to your own abuse becomes the defense system that stops you from being able to have empathy towards your own children. And unless you work out your own pain, you're going to keep reenacting pain. I appreciate that, Dr. Gill. I appreciate that these moms were abused or neglected in their youth. I can't do anything about that. I want to do something about the children that are being abused right now.

Joe Scott, what did this child live through before she was put half naked on the back porch in a rug? Pure hell. This child had been beaten multiple times. The child had bruising and scratches all over. And this is documented prior to the fatal incident. So this means that you've got people, these individuals, that are essentially an ongoing series of torture to kind of drive this child into submission before them. You know, I found it kind of interesting that the dad used the term drama queen when he referred to this precious little baby. What the hell are you thinking?

Drama queen? She's three years old. You're locking her in a closet? And for me, Nancy, I got to tell you, I am sick to my back teeth with defects. We've heard the same thing over and over again. Nancy, I've participated in over 7,000 autopsies in my career between New Orleans and Atlanta. I never saw a single

defects worker come to an autopsy. It should be mandated because obviously things aren't going to change. But if you are directly responsible for the life, I don't care about the parents. I really don't. I look at the body before me. If you're responsible for this child's life, you should be forced to go to the autopsy and witness the things that I've seen. Inhabit that space, the smells, the sounds, all of the measurements, the injuries. Understand this damage that's being inflicted on these children.

You have to understand that because obviously the workers don't care. They're not connected to this in a visceral manner. If they were, we wouldn't have ongoing homicides. And that's what this is. It's a plague of murder is what this is. And it's been going on for years and years. And the government will not interdict it. Seemingly not. Over and over. If you believe or have reason to believe or suspect a child is being abused, please call the Child Help National Hotline. 800-4-A-CHILD. 800-422-4453. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.