Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 3 Tots Die in Icy Waters After MOMMY FLIPS SUV, MOM HIGH

Episode Date: July 22, 2022

A Michigan mother with a history of driving violations is charged after her three children die when Letitica Marie Gonzales crashes her SUV into an icy pond. The Gonzales boys, all under age 5, drowned after being trapped upside down in their car seats, underwater.  Gonzales was impaired at the time, under the influence of a synthetic opioid.  The 30-year-old was charged this week with three counts of driving while intoxicated resulting in death. Gonzales crossed into oncoming traffic, hit a curb, and rolled her Chevrolet Tahoe onto its roof in a Holland Township pond. Gonzales was able to get out of the SUV, but her three children drowned.   Gonzales has pleaded guilty at least four times over the past 12 years to driving without a license; she also has pleaded guilty to obtaining controlled substances by false representation, according to a local newspaper. Joining Nancy Grace today:  Wendy Patrick - California prosecutor, author “Red Flags” www.wendypatrickphd.com 'Today with Dr. Wendy' on KCBQ in San Diego, Twitter: @WendyPatrickPHD   Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, (Atlanta GA) www.angelaarnoldmd.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital   Sheryl McCollum - Forensic Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder, ColdCaseCrimes.org, Twitter: @ColdCaseTips,   former State Director of MADD   Dr. William Morrone - Chief Medical Examiner, Bay County Michigan, Author: "American Narcan: Naloxone & Heroin-Fentanyl Associated Mortality", RecoveryPathwaysLLC.com   Dave Mack,  Crime Online Investigative Reporter  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Three little children, three children dead, ages four, three, and one. Why? Because of mommy. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at Fox 17. Deputies say a mother was driving down James Road here right after 11 o'clock this morning when

she lost control, veered across the lane, flipped, and ended up in a retention pond. I'm going to step out of the way actually so you can see where that SUV ended up in the water, which is about three to four feet deep according to police. Now deputies say three kids were in child restraint seats and were underwater when rescue crews arrived on scene. Two of the brothers, a three and a four-year-old, died at the hospital. The one-year-old is in critical condition tonight. The mother was able to escape from the vehicle and is hospitalized as well. So far, police haven't released any further information or the names of these victims. Three young children, Jerome III, age four, Jeremiah, age three, and Josiah, age one.

Mommy, Letitia Marie, it's all on you. 11 a.m., was this an accident? Were the roads wet? Was it dark and rainy and cloudy? Was it snowing? Or was there another reason mommy couldn't keep the car on the road at 11 a.m.? Again, I'm Nancy Grayson. This is Crime Stories. Thank you so much for being with us. Second verse, same as the first. Mommy as high as a kite. Listen to Doug Reardon in our cut to Fox 17. Things got worse for that family and for that community today. The youngest of those three boys, just one year old, died this morning. In the last hour, authorities confirmed to us that the three boys are four-year-old Jerome Gonzalez and three-year-old Jeremiah Gonzalez, who died at the hospital yesterday, and now one-year-old Josiah Gonzalez, who died today.

Ottawa County deputies say they got the first call at 11.04 in the morning yesterday, and when they arrived at the scene, the 30-year-old woman who was driving was out of the car but in the water, frantically trying to save those three boys. Deputies who jumped in with no wetsuits had everybody out just 10 to 12 minutes later, but it was too late. does that always happen cheryl mccollum founded director cold case research institute why does the perp live and everybody else all the innocent people die it happens over and over it is one of the horrible aspects of this whole thing and a lot of the crashes you're talking about. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a minute.

Did you say accident? I did. Why did you say that? This was no accident, Cheryl McCollum. It's not an accident. It's a straight-up crime. There's no question about it. And, you know, Nancy, again, how many times have you and I talked about these cases?

They're 100 percent preventable. These these crashes that, you know, you start out your day. I mean, her her day was not to hurt her children, much less kill them. You know what, Cheryl? Correct me if I'm wrong, but did you go to law school? No. Oh, OK. Because let me remind you that the black and white letter of the law,

and I don't mean to be harsh, but this is reality. The black and white letter of the law is, and this is codified. The law assumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. And I said that slowly because when I was in law school, I had been an English Shakespearean literature professor. I did not know what anybody was talking about. I had to take these big long sentences and break them down and say them over and over until I really got it. The law assumes You intend the natural consequence of your act. You get drunk, you get high, and then you get the key to the car, your Chevy Tahoe, and you get in the car after you put your children in the car, your three babies, and you turn the ignition and you take off, the law assumes you intend to drive drunk or high.

And the natural consequence of that is a crash where your children die. Now, that's the law. And you waxing philosophically, romantically, I might even say, that this is not what she intended when she woke up. Yeah, okay, don't care. They're dead. Well, I'll say something that's not romantic. Let's just get down to it. 32 people die every day.

That means somebody's going to die during the episode of your show today. 120 people will be severely injured again because somebody made the decision to not call an uber not stay home not get a designated driver they did that there's no question about it and it's not just that cheryl mccollum i mean listen i'm a jd not a dds i don't know how to pull your teeth mccollum i mean i how to pull that out of you. I'm going to let you think about that and your actions for a few moments. Dr. Angie Arnold, joining me, a renowned psychiatrist of the Atlanta jurisdiction. You can find her at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Dr. Angie, what Cheryl McCollum just said after I pulled it out of her is absolutely correct. But it's not just taking your own life in your hands. When you add

in the lives of three helpless children, Jerome, four, Jeremiah, three, Josiah, one. I mean, that's a whole nother layer of wrongdoing. Oh, I agree with you, Nancy. And I don't know how this woman's going to ever live with herself. You know, I wonder about that, Dr. Angie, because some people, I guarantee you, will say, oh, it was an accident. It's not an accident. You know, I want to go to Dr. William Maroney.

Dr. Maroney, not just an incredibly famous chief medical examiner, joining us out of Michigan. He's the author of American Narcan. But not only that, he has created and commandeers a mobile drug treatment unit. He's putting his time, his effort, his money, his energy while he's raising children to help other people with drug problems. You know, Dr. Maroney, you've seen it all. And I guarantee you, people like this woman, Letitia Marie, will rationalize to herself, oh, you know what? I didn't mean that to happen.

I'm so torn up. B.S. Maroney. You know, what we have here is the investigation is going to need to do drug and alcohol testing at a level to decide. It's an automotive accident, but it was caused by an individual that may have been impaired. There's a lot of testing that goes.

If she has drugs at a level that made her incompetent and incapable of driving, well, then somebody's culpable. And that brings in the homicide. But as a medical examiner, I would say that the choice, you have five choices on a death certificate, accident, homicide, natural suicide, indeterminate. The medical examiner, that county may think it's too complicated to call it an accident or a homicide. And then the default on the death certificates would be indeterminate. You know, Dr. Marnie, I wasn't really asking you as a medical examiner. I was asking you as someone who has been around so many addicts in your lifetime. It's always a shape-shifting thing.

They blame everybody but themselves. Look, I'm all about forgiveness. I'm all about doing the right thing, but I'm also about you do a horrible crime. You caused the death of three infants. You're going to jail for a long time. You can get saved and get forgiven behind bars. What I'm asking you about is after all the addicts you've seen, they shift the blame. I guarantee you she's not going to be all torn up that this is her fault. She is going to say this was an accident.

I didn't mean it. That's where her mind is. Drug use can never excuse criminal fatal behavior. In a good, legitimate court, that will be clearly determined. Drug use can never be an excuse for criminal fatal behavior. You know what, Jackie, I want to talk about a mom you brought up right before we went to air, and I said it was completely dissimilar, Susan Smith. Will you pull up that sound for me and tell me when you've got it? Dave Mack, what happened in the case where Letitia Marie Gonzalez was driving and ends up with three dead babies strapped in in the back? Nancy, shockingly enough,

this happened around 11 o'clock in the morning. The road conditions perfectly clear. There's no snow, no sleet, no rain. The roads are dry. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Tell me that again. No snow, no sleet, no rain, dry roads. No reason for anything bad to happen, but it did. She, the driver, Mrs. Gonzalez, went across the opposite lanes of traffic, hit a curb. The Chevy Tahoe rolled over and landed in a retention pond that was about three to four feet deep with water. However, it had about six inches of frozen ice on top. The vehicle landed on the top,

and the three boys, ages four, three, and one, were trapped in their car seats in the vehicle. Ms. Gonzalez got out of the vehicle herself. 911 was getting calls of people, you know, noting the accident or the wreck. Fire rescue was on scene within minutes and they were able to get the boys out of the vehicle. However, the three-year-old and four-year-old died at the hospital later that day. The one-year-old died the next day and they all drowned.

Gonzalez herself was able to get out of the car crime stories with nancy grace let me understand something dr will. William Maroney joining me, Chief Medical Examiner, joining us out of Michigan. How is it that you drown, like a delayed drowning? Because they were alive when 911 got there and then they died at the hospital. How does that happen? Drowning is the end result of not enough oxygen getting to the brain because of water in the lungs and in the sinus. And you can't get all the water out. And it begins a process that we would call a sequela of anoxia. Okay, whoa.

What? A sequela? Of anoxia. Okay, whoa. What? A sequela? anoxia without oxygen and just because you can clear the water when you get to the hospital doesn't mean I mean the brain dies in five to six minutes so if they're underwater for five to six minutes and they're extracted at 30 morally and ethically EMS still have to take them to the hospital you don't pronounce children in a retention pond you You put them in the gurney, you get them in the ambulance, you run them through ER, you get them to ICU. You give children every possible opportunity for revival and miracles. We don't pronounce people dead on scene

and you just hope for the best. But realistically, the brain dies in five to six minutes without oxygen. I know the medical examiner determined the boys actually drowned. I'm trying to figure out how this whole thing went down. Letitia Marie, age 31, veered left across eastbound lanes of traffic crossing multiple lanes. It's a miracle she didn't have a head-on collision with oncoming traffic and then somehow goes off the road, catapults the Tahoe and ends up upside down in frigid icy water. And those were the last minutes of these boys' lives as they scream out for who? Mommy.

Mommy. I can't be in a grocery store or a mall or anywhere when I hear somebody say mommy. It's like a shock goes through my system because I'm so used to turning and what is it? To Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor, author of Red Flags. You can find her at WendyPatrickPhD.com, the host of Today with Dr. Wendy on KCBQ San Diego. Wendy, can you imagine what these children lived through in their last moments? A drowning death is one of the worst deaths you can have because you're conscious until the last moments. No, that's absolutely right, Nancy.

This is just tragic. And, you know, this is why driving under the influence is a crime. You know, you talk about natural consequences. The jury instructions talk about knowledge and intent. I mean, I know parents that won't even drive their precious cargo, i.e. their children, if they're tired, much less if they know they've ingested an intoxicant, regardless of how they think that they feel. So this is one of those cases where not only is it inexcusable regarding the driving, but as you mentioned, the cause of death and more, it's almost tragic to

think about the manner of death and what it must have been like in those last moments. Guys, take a listen to our friends at Fox 17, our cut three. Now they have to use witness interviews and any video they can find as well as markings on the ground and on the SUV to figure out how the car left the road in the first place. And on top of it all, they're dealing with the horrific loss of three young members of their community. I couldn't imagine. Pretty much everybody that was out there yesterday is a father or a mother. And then to have to deal with that um it's tough but it doesn't doesn't compare to what the family is going through and our hearts go out to them and holland's out your fire rescue also

responded to that on thursday we also know all three of those kids were wearing approved child safety seats at the time of the crash i mean cheryl mccollum I'd be lying if I said my heart didn't break for the mother who caused this, for the family. But Lady Justice is wearing a blindfold for a reason. She may be heartbroken now, but again, the law is clear. And I am quoting directly from the black and white letter of the law. One may immediately regret the deed, but that does not negate intent or malfeasance at the time the act was committed. She may be heartbroken right now. I'm sure she is heartbroken right now. I'm sure she is heartbroken right now. But under the law, the law has to decide

what happened when these children died at the hands of mommy. As a matter of fact, take a listen to a recounting of the Susan Smith story. Our lives have been torn apart by this tragic event. In 1994, Susan Smith claimed she was carjacked by a black man who took off with her two young sons in the back seat. She pleaded for the safe return of her boys, 14-month-old Alex and three-year-old Michael. I would like to say to whoever has my children that they please, I mean please bring them home. Little by little, 23-year-old Smith's story fell apart until this bombshell announcement. Susan Smith has been arrested and will be charged with two counts of murder in connection with the deaths of her children. In reality, Smith let her car roll down a boat ramp into this lake with her two boys still strapped in their car seats in the back.

The reason, according to authorities, she was having an affair with a man who didn't want children. Both of her sons drowned. You're hearing our friend Liz Trent at Inside Edition. So my question, let me put a hard question to you, Cheryl McCollum. How is that any different from Letitia Marie? Because same end result, the little boys are upside down, underwater, strapped in seatbelts, dead because of Mommy. Susan Smith, as she's begging the public for help, what a fake, what a liar. Knowing where the boys were the whole time at the bottom of the pond, here, I mean, there we know she intended the whole thing,

but here, Mommy intended to get high before she got behind the wheel and methodically strapped her boys in, ages four, three, and one. Well, I'm going to start there. This lady strapped her children in for safety. Susan Smith strapped hers in so they couldn't get out. Completely different, even though the end result is the same and it's still going to be murder. And here's the deal. This lady leaves her house, puts her children in that car for safety

to head wherever she's going. She never dreamed that that car was fixing to end up upside down in icy water. Susan Smith got in her car, strapped her children in so they could not escape, got out of her car, let that car slowly go into that water and sink while her babies were screaming for her. Completely different devil. Everything that you just said is correct. However, non-responsive. My question was, how is the end result any different? The boys are dead and mommy is the reason. That's the end result. One intended it from a plan, a premeditated plan. The other brought about the same end result by driving high. As a matter of fact, DaveMacCrimeOnline.com, what was in her system? I'm talking about Letitia Marie.

Letitia Marie Gonzalez was actually taking methadone on a daily basis with an actual methadone clinic as part of a recovery program. The initial dosage that she took at 6.30 that morning at the clinic was her normal dosage. However, within 30 minutes, she was on the phone with a connection, somebody she knew that also had methadone and was hitting up this other individual to what she said in the text was borrow a dose. So she was already taking, she'd already taken her normal dose for the day so she would be okay. But she willfully and intentionally went

and got another dose knowing the end result would be that she would be high. Okay, I need you, Dr. William Maroney, Chief Medical Examiner joining us out of Michigan and author and father, explain Medical Examiner, joining us out of Michigan, and author, and father. Explain, to my mind, methadone is a recovery drug that you use as kind of a path to get off of a more serious drug like heroin. But what are the effects of methadone?

Well, if you take the dose that's prescribed, and only the dose that's prescribed, the effect is it takes what you had in your clinic, well, that's not supervised. It's not structured. And it is bootleg methadone because it's distributed illegally. It's illegal for somebody to take their dose and casually move it over to a friend. That's illegal. That's drug diversion. That is not a clinical event. Drug diversion. What's drug diversion? Diversion is using a medicine in any way other than as it was intended, meaning the time or the strength or for the purpose if you take methadone because you say you know what it helps my anxiety hey it's not intended it's not approved for your anxiety that's drug diversion and that's the same as giving methadone to your next door neighbor you know it sounds so casual in the text and let me throw that to you dr ang. Angela Arnold, and everybody again, this isn't high tea at High Grove, all right?

You don't have the queen and her corgis here. So jump in if you have a thought, whether you agree or disagree with me, and let's figure this out. To Dr. Angie Arnold, it sounds so innocuous, almost cozy. Hey, can I borrow a dose? It's like, can I borrow a cup of sugar? It casualizes it. And Nancy, most people don't understand what goes on at a methadone clinic. I don't really.

I mean, I've gone there to find witnesses, but I didn't take time to figure out what was going on medically. I mean, Nancy, so the doctor is in the methadone clinic, and the patients come in. And I'm going to tell you something. When I worked at a methadone clinic, every patient that I saw during the day asked me for more methadone. They are drug seeking. Typically, methadone is oftentimes a last resort to get them off of something else.

But we have to remember that they're drug seeking. And I'm wondering how many times this woman had done this. This was not the first time she ever did this. You know, Nancy, this is Wendy. This type of off-label use of narcotics, what Dr. Maroney is referring to as drug diversion, that in and of itself is misuse. And this is just another aggravant in terms of drug of drug seeking behavior and then followed by driving with your three babies in the car. So the knowing more about the underlying facts and circumstances and the throes of addiction, I mean, let's call it out like it is. Otherwise, that initial dose would have been sufficient. But even that initial dose, no doubt she was told

that she can't drive or operate machinery all the different you know dangerous warnings that that comes with so that just goes to the knowledge aspect of what can happen if you do that what kind of high i gotta jump in here too yeah and but remind me after you finish your own column i want to ask maroney about the effects of methadone? Is it like being on crack? Is it like being on meth? Is it like being on pot? I don't know. We really haven't seen a lot of crimes committed when you're high on methadone. But I want to circle back to him. But go ahead, Cheryl, please. I just want to piggyback on what Wendy was saying. You know damn well not to drive if you've used NyQuil. It tells you right on the label, don't drive. You certainly know if you're on methQuil. It tells you right on the label, don't drive.

You certainly know if you're home methadone. And I just want to point out, because I know you as my former prosecutor would have done this, she committed at least three crimes before she ever got in that car. She obtained it illegally, possessed it illegally, consumed it illegally before she ever got in that car. You know why that's so important, Cheryl? Because a lot of people consider a drunken accident, they think it's an accident as opposed to a crime.

They think that it was unintentional. But the reality is you take a lot of intentional steps before you are out on the road drunk or high. And you're just pointing out three illegal acts before the final three homicides of a four-year-old, a three-year-old, and a one-year-old little boy. And speaking of the little boys, listen to this. The oldest, I'm reading from their obituary. You know, that almost just actually hurt my stomach

because I think about my children, John, David, and Lucy, and the same sentence is obituary. It tastes like dirt in my mouth. The oldest, four-year-old Jerome III, was protective of his younger brothers at four years old. He would protect his younger brothers. While Jeremiah 3 and Josiah 1 liked to play with toy cars. They were joyful and active. They loved to dance and play at the park. At home, they played games all the time. Just thinking about them, and I'm looking at their pictures, three little brothers dead in

an icy pond thanks to mommy. Take a listen. This is very critical to our cut five. This is Captain Jay Douglas at the Ottawa County Sheriff's Office. When I got out there an hour and a half after the crash occurred, the roads were dry. So in my opinion, the road conditions didn't play a factor in this crash. You know, the investigation could prove differently, but there wasn't snow, there wasn't ice, they weren't wet. We have nothing to lead us to believe that there was any pre-impact type of accident. It doesn't appear to be any contact between the victim's vehicle or anyone else. Well, it's exactly like you said, Dave Mack joining us from CrimeOnline.com. No snow, no sleet, no rain, nothing.

11 a.m., high visibility, but mommy still veers across multiple lanes eastbound and catapults her vehicle upside down into a drainage pond. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. William Maroney joining us, author of American Narcan. Can you tell me what the methadone high is like? Is it like heroin, crack, meth, pot? Which one? Well, it's not a stimulant and it's not like cannabis.

It follows the category of opioids, taking too much methadone exceeding your prescribed dose of methadone would be like taking too many pain pills and it would be like using heroin it comes with sedation a sense of well-being and drowsiness. That's why she veered across lanes, a sense of relaxation. And then when you see somebody, they have pinpoint pupils, pinpoint, teeny, tiny, little pinpoint pupils. That's a sign of opiates. And the drug recognition expert for law enforcement, and there's probably about a thousand of them in Michigan on Michigan roads the sheriffs and the Michigan state police recognize those pinpoint pupils and somebody needs to be drug screened but they have a decrease in blood pressure a decrease in heart rate

and breathing can become extremely shallow at high doses but it's that drowsiness and that sense of relaxation a patient taking too much methadone or any opioid is looking for numbness they want they want to feel numb sometimes they call it oblivion because they can't deal with the stress around them at the proper, it takes away cravings for heroin. At a higher dose, it's just the same as any other diverted drug. It's not intended to make you drowsy. It's not intended to relax you so much that you veer across lanes. And this vehicle flipped because of a high rate of speed because of on, when you're on

an opioid and you're not able to process things, the front end of a vehicle goes down and all across Michigan from the western shores of Lake Michigan to the eastern shores of Lake Huron, the sides of our roads are beveled to create drainage. And that means that the nose of that Chevy went down and at a high rate of speed, the rear axles flipped over, you know, just like, you know, going on a bicycle and going off the road. Your ass goes over your handlebars. That's what it is. And because of a lack of awareness, you're abundant. You think slow and you act slow.

You know, I want to give an example. And Dr. William Maroney is joining us from Michigan. And these deaths, the deaths of these three little children occurred in Holland, Michigan. So what he's saying about the beveled roads, how the roads are beveled down on the side is absolutely correct, which may explain why her car catapulted upside down into that drainage pump. But to you, Dr. Angela Arnold and Wendy Patrick, I want your thought on this. Many times I've argued to juries about opioids. Typically, it was heroin.

Now, the big thing would probably be fentanyl and oxycodone, that type of opioid. But most of jurors don't know anything, as they shouldn't, about opioid addiction. And I would start it with saying something like, I guess you've all seen Wizard of Oz, right? And they almost make it to Emerald City, and then there's a big field of poppies, okay, which can be used for opioid production. And as they start walking across, everybody gets sleepy and they don't want to wake up. And they lay down on the ground and they stay there until it starts snowing on them to wake them up. And at the other end of that, and then you see on TV, opium dens where people are lying around peacefully, smoking opioid, ingesting opioids. And then the reality that Dr. Angela

told us about, the methadone clinic, where everybody is strung out of their minds. You have people lying in the street. They have no idea what's going on around them because they're high on opioids and they ignore everything. They're children. They don't want to eat. They don't want to pay their bills. They just want the next hit, Dr. Angie. Right, because Nancy, they don't want to feel anything.

And Nancy, the fact that she went to someone's house and got an extra pill means that whatever they were giving her at the methadone clinic was not, she was accustomed to that dose now. And she was able to feel things. So she wanted to go and get another pill so that she couldn't feel. And as the guests have said, she was abdundant, Nancy. And you know something? I think there are a lot of people to blame here. Does her family know that she's going to a methadone clinic? Don't start.

Do not start if she starts, Cutter Mike. Because we're not blaming anybody but Mommy. Her family may have known. I'm sure they had a large hand in getting her to a clinic. But she is the one that texted the friend to borrow another dose.

As a matter of fact, take a listen to our friend Marissa O'Byrle at Fox 17, our cut eight. According to this court filing, Letitia Gonzalez was under the influence of methadone at the time of that crash. Now, she was prescribed the drug as part of a treatment program and took her normal dose the morning of that incident. But 30 minutes later, the filing says she asked to, quote-unquote, borrow someone else's dose. That person gave her that additional dose shortly after that fatal crash was reported. The Ottawa County Sheriff's Office arrested the 30-year-old Tuesday on three counts of operating while intoxicated, causing death. She went before a judge this afternoon and remains in jail on a $250,000 bond.

Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. That is another step, intentional step to actually go to a friend's home. Well, I don't know if a drug buddy is actually a friend, but to go to someone's home, to go out of your way to go to their home to get more drugs. That's another thing she did leading up to the horrible murder of her children. You know, Nancy, the thing that struck me was that we know that she went and got her regular dose at the clinic at 630 in the morning. Within 30 minutes, she's texting this drug buddy wanting more. This is somebody that she had gone to in the past

when she was dope sick. Dope sick is after you run out of medication and you start showing symptoms of withdrawal. It's a flu-like symptoms and it can be very uncomfortable. And she had gone to this person before when she had been dope sick and this person helped her get through it by getting her some more methadone. Helped her? Yeah, I mean, to help her with the symptoms. Anyway, there was a deputy trained in drug recognition signs that was on scene. Now, we have the description how the mom was outside the vehicle in the water trying to heroically get her children out of their car seats, right? Right. But what this deputy saw right away at the scene that her pupils were notably constricted and her eyelids were droopy and she displayed no response to direct lighting. They asked her about drug use and she lied. She her first response was to lie.

The second response was, oh, yeah, I do take methadone. I got it at the clinic, but she did not was not forthcoming about. I got another dose later. You know, they found out at the hospital when they did the labs on her blood and found out the methadone. But my understanding, and I don't know how this changes, Dr. Moroney can fill us in, but they couldn't determine the level of methadone in her system at the time of the, of the rat. What about it, Dr. Moroney? Well, the first thing that they do after an accident like this is they bring you to the emergency room of the closest hospital

and they take a blood sample now the difference between the drug testing at the methadone clinic and after an accident is that drug testing and uh methadone clinic or any substance abuse clinic is like 99% urine drug testing. And that's not evidence-based to determine whether you're impaired or not. You really can't tell based on that. But after an accident, a blood level, there are levels of methadone that are considered analgesic. And above that, you would have the euphoria, the obtundation, the sedation, the slow thinking, the slow acting. And sometimes those circles of what level drug that is, they overlap. And where they have the determination to say, well, this drug level says she's impaired. Well, you know, they technically, you judge the impairment by the functional problem behind the

wheel that caused the death of the children. You can never use a lab value. You can never say, that's the number. She's impaired. Well, another thing, speaking of being impaired, let's just get down to it. To you, Wendy Patrick, Dave Mack from Crime Online made a point to tell us that she, quote, his word, not mine, heroically tried to save her children after she lands them in an icy pond. Really? She couldn't even respond to light or answer questions correctly how much do you think she was helping to save her children really that might be a bit of projection on anybody's part as a parent we want to think that absolutely we wouldn't think that and i want to add to what dr maroney and dave mack brought up crashing her car into the lake is circumstantial evidence of

impairment that is going to be one of the biggest arguments because we've already ruled out all of the other things that might have contributed. It was clear sky. There was no sleet, no snow, no rain, no obstacles in the road. So the mere crash itself is going to prove what a lab test cannot. They better get out there with a reconstructionist pronto because I can imagine all sorts of lies the defense might bring up. A deer ran across a car.

Someone to her right made her veer to the left. I mean, we don't know, so we better get out there pronto with an accident reconstructionist. But I want to point something out. Cheryl McCollum, you know, when I had the children, the twins, I would actually practice running if I had to save them under various conditions with that much weight under both arms because I had two that would have to be saved at the same time and figured out how I would try to save them if we went underwater in the car. All sorts of things. Praise God, none of that ever happened. But even to this day, Cheryl, when I have the twins in the car, I try very much not to drive on the interstate.

Why? Not because I'm impaired. Because I'm worried about the other people that are impaired going 80, 90 miles an hour. I mean, you can't be too careful. And now these three boys are dead. Nancy, you cannot be too careful. And here's the reality. There were some witnesses

that saw her veering off the road. So those witnesses are going to be key. So is the black box from that car. That data is going to show us when she accelerated, the speed, when she was breaking, the doors that were opening and closing and when. So they'll be able to show, was she trying to save them? It'll show the exact time of the crash and all of that. And, you know, the accident reconstruction is going to be key. And then they're going to cross-check all of that with these text messages and whatnot that she's sending to people trying to get additional drugs. Yeah, I mean, really, Cheryl, I guess she thought she wasn't high enough to go driving with her children in the car. I earlier misspoke. I said murder. This has not been charged as a murder. It's right now ending up as a vehicular homicide.

I think it should be a murder charge because her intentional acts brought about the deaths of three innocent babies, now angels. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crumstorre signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.