Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 3 Tots Drowned Dead, Mommy Suspected Drunk, on Boardwalk

Episode Date: September 13, 2022

Three young children found dead on a New York beach were allegedly drowned by their mother.  Police say 30-year-old Erin Merdy reportedly confessed to the murders. A 90-minute search was launched early Monday after several of Merdy's relatives called police, concerned that Merdy may have done something to her children.  The children ages, 7, 4, and 3 months, were found lying in the sand. Merdy, meanwhile,  was nearly two miles away on the Brighton Beach boardwalk. Merdy was soaking wet, barefoot,  and walking in her bathrobe. Speculation is that Merdy may have been drinking or suffering postpartum depression. No confirmation of either has yet been made.     Joining Nancy Grace Today: John W. Dill, Esquire - Personal Injury Lawyer, Winter Park, Florida, Author: "The Method: Proven Techniques for Winning Jury Trials", www.JohnWDill.com, Twitter/IG @JohnWDillESQ, Represented Zenaida Gonzalez in Defamation Suit against Casey Anthony Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist, Atlanta GA, AngelaArnoldMD.com, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women, Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University, Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital Robert Crispin - Private Investigator, Former Federal Task Force Officer for United States Department of Justice, DEA and Miami Field Division, Former Homicide and Crimes Against Children Investigator, “Crispin Special Investigations” CrispinInvestigations.com, Facebook: Crispin Special Investigations, Inc.  Dr. Katherine Maloney, M.D. - Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiners Office, (Buffalo NY), www.nickelcityforensics.com Gabrielle Fonrouge - National Correspondent and Investigative Reporter, NY Post, Twitter: @FonrougeGab, GabrielleFonrouge.com  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A 911 call detailing three children unconscious on the beach. Where was mommy? A far distance away on the boardwalk. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111.

In case you were wondering, the three children are not unconscious. They're dead. Take a listen to this. Earlier this morning at about 1.40 a.m., officers from the 60th Precinct responded to an apartment at 3325 Neptune Avenue in response to a 911 call placed by a concerned family member who was at a different location. And the caller indicated that she was concerned that her family member may have harmed her three small children. Officers responded to that apartment. They received no answer to a knock on the door. And inside the building, they were met by an individual who identified himself to be the father of one of the children,

who expressed similar concerns and said that he believed that the woman and the children were on the boardwalk here in Coney Island. The officers began, along with other officers from the 60th Precinct, a search for the woman and her children. That involved canvassing the boardwalk, the beach, the streets of Coney Island, Coney Island Hospital, and her own apartment at 3325 Neptune Avenue where the officers found the door unlocked. Found the door unlocked. Frantic calls regarding the three children. With me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we know right now. First, I want to go out to a special guest joining us.

It's Gabrielle Fonrouge, national correspondent, investigative reporter with the New York Post. You can find her at Gabrielle Fonrouge dot com. Gabrielle, thank you for being with us. For those people that have never been, could you describe the Coney Island Boardwalk? Thanks for having me on, Nancy. And, you know, the Coney Island Boardwalk is what you think of when you hear the word boardwalk and beach. You know, right nearby, we have Luna Park. We have an amusement park.

You've got the boardwalk. You've got the restaurants. You've got the bars. And then, of course, you have the beach. You have, you know, a decent beach for New York City. Tons of people are there every summer. You know, it's really just kind of an idyllic place. Has everybody seen Tom Hanks in Big? The movie Big, where he's a little boy and he wishes at a vending magician

on Coney Island, he wishes on the boardwalk, he wishes to be, quote, big, and then his wish comes true that night and the movie goes through. And in the end, not to spoil it, he has to go back to the coney island boardwalk to find the it's about the size of a refrigerator vending machine with a magician

a sorcerer and he is trying to become a kid again a child again that's the coney island boardwalk it's beautiful it's fun there's restaurants. There's arcades. Just like Gabrielle Fonrouge just told us. So what in the H-E-double-L is Mommy doing on the boardwalk while

her children are lying dead on the beach? Take a listen. You were earlier hearing our friends at the NYPD. That was Chief Kenneth Corey. Now take a listen to more. This search continued for approximately 90 minutes until the officers in response to an additional 911 call were directed to Brighton 6th Street and Regalman Boardwalk. At that location, the officers found a 30-year-old female believed to be the mother of the three children. She was accompanied by other family

members, but not the children. The search now intensified. Aviation units, harbor units, and additional canvases of the shoreline. Let me go straight out to Robert Crispin joining us, private investigator, former fed with the Federal Task Force for U.S. State Department of Justice, DEA. It goes on and on and on. Now he is with Crispin Special Investigations. Robert, thank you for being with us as always. You know, you think you've seen it all, right? That's what I always say. Well, I've seen it all. I've seen it all. And then another case comes along and we realize that sadly we have not seen it all. Three dead children. Three dead children.

One of them, seven, that's Zachary, father in the army. Liliana, four. And Oliver, three months. Different father. Crispin, three dead children. You ever seen that before? Well, I've seen two, Nancy. I saw one go into the water, and the little brother tried to go in after and save her, and they both drowned. Let me rephrase my question, as I like to say in court, when the witness does not respond the way I want them to.

Have you ever seen a triple child homicide? I don't mean a natural disaster or an accidental drowning. Three children murdered. Not at all. Three children murdered. Tragic. And where is mommy? Walking the boardwalk with the restaurants and the vending machines and the games.

Cops immediately race to the home and they find the door open. And let me understand this. Gabrielle Fonrouge, joining me from the New York Post. The father, I guess it's the father of Oliver, possibly Liliana as well, he's just kind of wandering around. He goes, yeah, I'm really worried about them. Do I have that right? Yeah, that's about right.

The cops showed up. They went to the apartment door. Nobody answered. The door was unlocked. And I guess they ran into the father, and we believe it's the father of Oliver, I guess somewhere else in the father and we believe it's the father of Oliver I guess somewhere else in the building what he was doing is unclear but he expressed similar concerns and he told police I think they're on Coney Island Beach so he's worried what's he doing wandering around the house I mean if I'm worried about my can I tell you what happened the other day

Gabrielle uh the other day of course I have every entrapment possible on my children's phones and computers blah blah and i got an alarm from bark that john david my beloved only son the f word popped up and i went honey i got in that car i dropped what i was doing got in that car. I dropped what I was doing, got in the car and went to his school and pulled him out of class. I took him outside. So the reception, he was very prim and proper, could not hear me drop the F word.

And I said, John David Lynch, did you write the F word? And he went, no. His little face got totally white. Of course, he's 6'5". I don't know what I'm talking about. And I said, look at this. And I looked through it and somebody had sent him

a rap song and the rapper said the F word. I'm like, okay, never mind. I was really just coming by to say hi. Okay, goodbye. Bye-bye. So he had not done that, but I was worried. So I got in the car that minute. I did not delay and went over there. You know, so he's worried about the children's safety, not about a tween dropping the F-bomb. He's worried about their safety, and he's just chilled back in the house? That's what we know. You're sure?

Yes, that's exactly what police told us. I mean, they encountered him in the building. He expressed similar concerns as the other relatives who had called in earlier that morning saying, you know, we have concerns that she may have harmed the children. He had those exact same concerns and told police that they're probably on the beach. Why he was walking around the building, what he was doing is unclear. Okay. The children, my twins, they're not children anymore, Gabrielle Fon Rouge.

Lucy's 5'3". She's taller than me. I just found out the other day I'm not 6'3". He's 6'5". I still made them wear a little life jackets when we went out on the water. Of course, it would barely fit John David. My point is, the father knows they're at the beach. He's, quote, worried about them, but he's kicked back in the house with the door wide open.

Okay, you know, let me just move on. But Gabrielle Fonrouge, joining us from the New York Post, who called 911 to start with? Do we know? We believe it was a sister. It was definitely one of her relatives and then also another relative.

There was multiple 911 calls from multiple relatives throughout that morning. And where were they? Were they all at the beach or were they somewhere else? Some of them were at different locations and one of the relatives eventually found, multiple relatives eventually found her on the beach and were there when cops arrived. So where they were when this all started is still part of that investigation,

but they had called from different locations and some of them eventually wound up with her on the beach. Guys, take a listen to our friend Tracy Strahan at NBC4. The kids were found unconscious near the water's edge by 35th Street, and despite life-saving efforts, were pronounced dead at Coney Island Hospital. Tragic news to the neighbors now grieving their loss. Not only people in the building, everybody in Coney Island is talking about it. You know, when it involves kids, you know, that's close to home. There is at least one or more officers right along the shoreline where those children were discovered.

And we're also hearing reports that the children's mother is undergoing a psychological evaluation at a local hospital. No charges have been filed yet in this case. Okay, so mommy, instead of being raised to the police precinct, is sent for psychological evaluation. And I'm very curious, why is that? Whenever a mother murders her children, that she's sent for a mental exam. I want you to take a listen to our Cut 13. This is Brandon Todd, Fox 4, Dallas-Fort Worth, and you may be wondering, why am I hearing from a reporter in Dallas-Fort Worth?

Same exact scenario. Listen to this. The famed pianist arrived home Thursday morning to find his five-year-old and one-and-a-half-year-old daughters dead. His estranged wife stabbed inside their Benbrook home. Sofia Saikankova is recovering from stab wounds. Holodenko arrived to pick up the kids and found her, according to police, in an extreme state of distress, then went back to a bedroom and found the bodies of both girls.

He is not considered a suspect at this time. One of the responding officers immediately recommended that the wife undergo a mental evaluation when asked if her wounds were self-inflicted. The stab wounds were made with a knife, but that's about as far as I can go with it. crime stories with nancy grace let me go to john w deal to bring him in he's a high profile lawyer joining me out of winter park florida author of the method proven Winning Jury Trials is at johnwdeal.com.

He is representing Zenaida Gonzalez. You'll remember that name. She was commonly known as Zanny the Nanny. That's who Tot Mom, Casey Anthony, blamed for her missing child, Kelly, whom top mom killed. She blamed a person she's never met and claimed Zanny the nanny took the baby as a babysitter. Deal took on that case. John Deal, thank you for being with us. Is it unusual how the mom murders the children and then she has a superficial knife wound and she gets mental evaluation while they get embalmed at the funeral home. Yeah. I mean, you see this a lot. In fact, I was thinking of it going way back to the Andrew Yates case.

Oh, yeah. Where the woman had drowned her children and then presented an insanity defense. I think she was convicted, but then retried and, you know, found not guilty by reason of insanity. It seems sort of disproportionate as far as the evaluations, but if I was defending the case, I obviously would want to be raising that, and I'm sure the police want to rule out that potential defense is why they're going ahead and getting her evaluated right away. Yeah, you know, Andrea Yates has a whole nother can of worms who very carefully plotted out the killing of her children, waited for her husband to leave to go to work, locked all the doors and then took one child at a time. I believe starting with the baby because the oldest child would understand what was going on.

I can't remember her order of how she killed them, but there was a reason. Then she dried them off and laid them on the bed, called 911 and went, I killed my children. Yeah. So that's a stark dichotomy, John Deal, because every time a mom murders her children, we just, not me, but others naturally assume, oh, she must be crazy. Correct. Correct. I do not agree with that. And in this case, isn't it true, Gabrielle Fonrouge, joining us in the New York Post, that she actually called, the mom in this case, actually called her family and indicated she intended to harm the children beforehand.

She had made comments to family that left them concerned that she would harm the children. What her exact statements were and if she expressed that intent, I still think is part of that investigation. But as soon as, you know, the deed had been done, she did confess to relatives, I drowned all three kids. That's what we have from our law enforcement sources at the NYPD. You know, to you, Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, well-known psychiatrist, joining us out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. She's at AngelaArnoldMD.com. One of her expertise is postpartum depression.

You know, Dr. Angie, I understand about depression. I don't understand as much as you do, of course, but that is not insanity. Depression is not insanity under the law. Insanity under the law, which is based on the quote, Old MacNaughton Rule, which is common law, which is case law, not codified such as a statute that we brought over from England with us. Okay, the Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence on which our legal system is founded. The Old MacNaughton Rule, also known as the insanity defense, is that you do not know right from wrong at the time of the incident. I don't see how depression makes you unaware of what is happening when you drown your children, your three children. And when they find her, hold on.

Isn't it true, Gabrielle Von Rouge, that she was wet? Her clothes and body were wet. The children were soaking wet. They were drowned. Isn't that true? She was found, when she was found by police, she was soaking wet, barefoot, in a bathrobe, and the children were found along the shoreline. So, Dr. Angie, are you arguing to me that depression makes you, what, blackout and you don't know what you're doing?

Now, I will say, Nancy, there are times... Oh, Lord. You can actually become psychotic. If your depression is bad enough, you can become psychotic. Whether or not we call this crazy... I didn't ask you that. I know you're an MD. I'm just a JD.

I'm not asking you, Dr. Angela Arnold, to interpret the law. I'm asking you, are you telling me that you can be so depressed you don't know you're murdering someone? Your depression can get so bad that, yes, you can become psychotic and out of your mind and not know reality from non-reality. Yes. I don't really know what you just said in the sense that I don't know that that was responsive to my question.

So Nancy, what I'm saying is- Don't throw a bunch of psychobabble at me, okay? Okay. Please, if you could just answer yes, no. Are you telling me you can be so depressed you have no idea what you're doing yes what do you make of the fact she told her family beforehand she was going to hurt the children she drowned them dead and then she told her family i drowned the kids so she wasn't out of her mind when she did it she knew what she was doing that's what i

make of that did you just say she knew what she was doing? Yes. Okay. I'm surprised you would admit to that because otherwise you would be stuck in the position. I was just waiting. I was spinning my web waiting for you to fly into it. You would be in a position of arguing temporary insanity which nobody really believes because

Right. I know that. Temporary insanity means I'm perfectly sane at this moment, at this exact moment. And then I see this ballpoint pen. I go crazy and leap over all the equipment in the studio and stab Jackie in the neck. And she dies. And then I jump back in my seat and continue with the program. I guess I would have to argue in that 10-minute exchange that it took me 10 minutes to stab her dead with this pen.

I was insane, and then suddenly I came back to myself. I was no longer insane. Because, let me get this right, Gabrielle Fonrose, just go with me on this. She's sane enough to, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop, boop. to hi i'm going to hurt the children kills the children and then says i killed my children she goes to a phone calls home calls somebody says she's going to hurt the children she murders the children and then she is back to herself again and says, I just killed the children. You know, the exact comments that she made to family are unclear.

You know, but they were left with the impression that she would harm them. Whether or not she actually said I had plans to harm them is still part of the investigation. I have not heard anything about her specific remarks, but they were left concerned. That's for sure. I have not heard anything about her specific remarks, but they were left concerned. That's for sure. Whatever she said or however she appeared, they were worried that she was going to hurt them. But afterwards, she absolutely confessed. That is a subtle but important distinction.

And I'm glad you made it because for all we know, we don't know her exact wording. We know later she said, I kill the children. Words to that effect. But before, she may have said something like, I can't take these children anymore. They've got to go. Something like that. Not the specific words, I'm going to kill the children. But enough to make the family concerned she was going to harm them. What really amazes me is that everybody just did nothing.

Nothing. And now the children are dead. I want you to take a listen to our cut eight. This is our friend at NBC4. NYPD officers stood along the Coney Island shoreline at sunrise, a place where three young children were found unresponsive and later pronounced dead. The person being questioned about the crime? Their mother, who was found shoeless and roaming the boardwalk about two miles away. The way it happened is sad. It's really sad because she

could have got help, you know? Maybe she wasn't too strong to get the help. At about 4.42 this morning, the officers discovered three children, a 7-year-old male, a 4-year-old female, and another female who's approximately 3 1⁄2 months old on the shoreline here at the water's edge at West 35th Street in Coney Island. The officers immediately initiated life-saving measures, including CPR on the children, and they were rushed to Coney Island Hospital where they were regrettably pronounced deceased. Just thinking about one of the little

children, in particular Zachary, age seven, his football coach had begged the mom for Zachary to come back to football, and she wouldn't let him. And he could go to football practice after school. It was either three or four days a week, and then they would get him supper. I guess they all had supper there at football practice, something like that. And he loved it so much. But the mom said, no, he could no longer play football or have dinner with the team. And they just, the little team, got together when they found out about Zachary's mother killing him

and released balloons into the air and all screened up to the clouds by Zachary we miss you I'm just thinking you know my children at that age seven just so precious and less, you know, the other two children. You have Oliver, just three months old. Liliana, four. Being killed, murdered by the one person that is supposed to protect you. But, of course, not in this case. Mommy was two miles away on the boardwalk when their bodies were found. I want to go straight out to Catherine Maloney, Dr. Catherine Maloney,

Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County. That's Buffalo. You can find her at nickelcityforensics.com. Dr. Maloney, thank you for being with us. One thing I've always hated is the thought, I mean, we're all going to die. There's really no use in even thinking about it. It's going to happen. But a lot of people say the one way I wouldn't want to die is, and for me, it's drowning. I'm just trying to imagine what these children went through. I mean, they very likely put up a struggle with their own mom. I don't know if they realized what was going on.

I mean, in Andrea Yates, she had a tiny little baby infant, I think was named Mary, who even as a tiny baby put up a struggle and you could see bruises all over her body where Andrea Yates held her down forcibly in the water to drown her. What actually happens to a human body when they are drowned? I mean, they know what's happening. Well, thank you for having me, Nancy. With the drowning, generally what will happen is that water will fill the airway, preventing air from getting in so the person can't breathe. And then when they can't breathe, eventually the oxygen in their blood will be depleted and then their brain will suffer irreversible damage.

It's a relatively, in warm water, it's a relatively longer process. It would probably take several minutes while the person's still conscious, kind of like with a choking, so that the death would be relatively prolonged. Just thinking about it not being anything like getting shot where you, bam, the moment the bullet hits you, it's over. And I don't know what you really even feel. If you're, like, for instance, shot in the head or you're hung the moment, well, not really hung. Let's go with the bullet. But in a drowning case, they knew what was happening to them. They very likely struggled and they knew it was mommy. Would you agree with that, Catherine? I think they

definitely would have been aware of what was going on. I'm sure it must have been very confusing. In a case like that, what kind of CPR would have been administered? So the CPR on the beach, the idea is that you just want to get the heart pumping again and then try to get the water out of the airway. So that's, I'm sure, what officers were doing at the scene as they called 911 to get an ambulance to respond. All the talk, Gabrielle Fon Rouge, regarding mommy possibly being depressed. Isn't it true when police arrived, they thought she was drunk? Yes, that's true. And also relatives, when they originally called 911, they were concerned that she might be under the influence of alcohol or drugs. And when cops found her, she did appear to be intoxicated. And she was certainly in a daze.

She wasn't communicating. She was kind of out to lunch, really, for lack of a better way. What are you going to do with that, attorney, high-profile lawyer John W. Deal, joining us out of Winter Park? Let's say she's your client. You're going to go with deep, deep depression. And suddenly you find out the cop says she's reeked of alcohol. Yeah, that's going to be a major problem.

I think probably I would try to develop a schizophrenia type of situation only because the family had said that she had gone off the grid and been acting erratically. Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Because I learned something completely different. Going off the grid, yes, she dumped all her social media. She wouldn't take a lot of her relatives' calls. But acting erratically, one relative said, yeah, she liked to party.

I knew she liked to, you know, drink a quote little bit and be with different guys. But I never thought she was crazy. I never thought she'd murder her children. Is that what you mean by acting erratically? That's what I would present. Obviously, this would all be part of whatever mental disease there is. I mean, you got to play the cards as you find them.

But the voluntary intoxication is problematic. Yeah, because that's not a defense. Absolutely not. No. Everybody in the Fulton County Courthouse would be dancing down Main Street right now because it all says I was drunk. I was drunk. That's true. Let me out of here.

You have to prove that it's the mental disease or defect that you have makes it so you can't appreciate right and wrong but if somebody is drinking and that's why they say they can't appreciate what was going on that is not a defense so it's going to be a difficult challenge for the defense attorney to try to reconcile the voluntary intoxication with whatever insanity defense they try to put together i mean you know what about that dr angie ar? Because your claim is psychosis stemming from postpartum depression. And I can see postpartum depression

because the Oliver is just three months old. But when cops say you're dazed and they think you're drunk, there's a big difference in being dazed from depression or psychotic break and being drunk. That's right.

And you know what that's called, Nancy? What? That's called medicating yourself. She was self-medicating with the alcohol. I can promise you that. I don't know that that's what I would call it. Guys, take a listen to our friend Elijah Westbrook at CBS2. Authorities say when she was found, her clothes were soaked and she was barefoot. Her statements to police eventually led them to believe she had something to do with the drowning. More than an hour later, the kids were found just

off of 35th Street in the water, unconscious. The kids were rushed to Coney Island Hospital, where they could not be saved. We did go ahead and ask police if there was any sort of history between the family and Child Protective Services, and as we speak, that is being looked into. For now, charges are pending against the mother. To Robert Crispin, private investigator with Crispin Special Investigations, barefoot, bathrobe, wet. Sounds like she kicked her shoes off to go in the water, kill her three children, came out and put on a bathrobe.

It does. And let me tell you, you you know we're talking all those legal mumbo jumbo let's talk about the actual homicide of three kids and her being mentally evaluated and i think what they mean by the mentally evaluated they took her down you know that location is just littered with video cameras and you know they may already have a very good handle on what happened and this whole thing may be caught on tape, which I'm sure probably is. Um, and I think they probably,

what they did in layman's turn is they either Marchman actor or they Baker actor. And I think that's where they're saying they did their mental evaluation. And I'm thinking that they got the confession or they got the spontaneous utterance. I mean, I don't know. To the family member, maybe she spontaneously uttered something to law enforcement we don't know about. But my take is they either saw the totality of what she did. It's caught on tape. And they marched for an actor because of either the alcohol or the drugs.

Clearly a danger to herself or others, or they Baker acted her. And I think you're going to find out as time goes on, this is what's going to unfold. And the worst part about all this is this goes back to see something, say something. So many times, so many of these tragedies can be avoided. Because when you go out and you interview these witnesses, they tell you things that they knew. They heard the statements, but they did nothing. You know why? Because people just don't want to get involved anymore. They just don't.

And it's sad. It's sad. And let me tell you, do you think that these kids knew what was going on? Absolutely. The last breath was taken out of them with the most horrific view of their mother as she plunged them into the water and killed them, if that's what she did. Horrific. I will say, I would like to jump in and say something. I don't think that we can totally blame other people for not saying something and doing something. As it said in one

of the pieces about her, she had totally gone off the grid and wasn't really communicating with her family. And I will tell y'all, oftentimes that is what people will do when they are, you know what? They don't want to talk to you about it anymore. They don't want to get any help. They don't want to take any medicine. And it is so hard to go out and find them. Respectfully, completely disagree with that, Nancy. Completely disagree with that.

You know what? 100%. I wouldn't disagree with me because i know what i'm talking about because i deal with this every day okay i've also worked these homicides is this deal or is this crispin crispin okay hold on a second so dr angie arnold uh you say you deal with this every day so when was the last time you prosecuted triple homicide i'm really interested well here's the thing do you want to know when if you could just answer that. Do you want to know when the last time was

I had to talk to a police officer because we were trying to get somebody 1013'd or Baker acted, as he called it. No, I don't. I want to know the last time you prosecuted a triple homicide.

One week ago. You went to court and prosecuted a triple homicide? No, Nancy. Oh, okay. So when you say, I've handled this, no, actually, you haven't.

You have handled cases where there is a legitimate mental illness. That is your expertise. That's right. And this woman may be mentally ill. And if so, okay, you know what, Jackie? Why don't y'all try to call the police on somebody? Get on the phone. I'm still hearing it.

Okay, thank you. Your expertise, Dr. Angela Arnold. And yes, I know you're a renowned psychiatrist. You know more about the human psyche than I could ever know. You know more in one digit about it than I know. I do, however, know about child homicide. If this woman is mentally ill, then I want her in a hospital where she can be treated. If she was drunk and tired of raising her children, I want her to go to jail the rest of her life, at the very least. What I am concerned, also Robert Crispin, Dr. Angela Arnold also said that you can't totally blame the people around her.

I also agree with that. However, what about the people that lived with her, the people that feared for the children? Take a listen to our cut one. This is Tracy Strahan, NBC4. Police say a worried family member called 911 just after 1.30 this morning, fearful that the 30-year-old mother could have harmed the kids, a 7-year-old boy, 4-year-old girl, and a boy just over 3 months old. But when officers arrived at the Sirius houses on Neptune Avenue,

no one answered the door, and it was unlocked. A man, who claimed to be the father of one of the children, later surfaced. They were met by an individual who identified himself to be the father of one of the children, who expressed similar concerns and said that he believed that the woman and the children were on the boardwalk here in Coney Island. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So you've got the sister worried about the children's welfare. You've got the father of the children worried about their welfare. Take a listen to Our Cut 25.

This is Kevin Recon, CBS 2. Folks here in this community, they're devastated to hear about what happened. I spoke with a number of neighbors who knew these kids and who knew their mother. They say by all accounts, it felt like she was trying her best, which is why it's all the more shocking to know that those kids are gone. Early Monday morning, police embarked on a 90-minute-long frantic search for three kids along the shoreline. They got a call from a concerned relative who believed the children were in danger. Cops found the mother, 30-year-old Erin Murdy, barefoot and soaking wet. Her kids were eventually discovered two miles away on the beach at West 35th Street in Coney Island. Many neighbors told me there were warning signs.

This man says the kids were left with family for a bit and wonders why they came back. Now I can see your person just snap because we all have problems. Police tell us that the mother called family to say she intended to hurt the kids, didn't say why. Okay, let me clear something up. Can we unmute Dr. Angela Arnold? And I want to bring in John Deal on this, the lawyer. John Deal, there's no such thing as SNAP. That's true.

Under the law. That's true. That's not real. Now, I know there was a program called snap and they always featured women that would kill somebody and they quote just snap that's not a defense under the law no no it's not i mean getting fed up having a hard time getting frustrated not able to make ends meet that's absolutely not a mental disease or defect you'd have to show that there was some mental issue going on that made it so she couldn't appreciate what she was doing. And I think that's really going to be the whole question in the case.

I want you to take a listen to our cut 21. And I want to hear from Dr. Angie Arnold on this. This is Ed Bradley, 60 Minutes. It was the most horrifying story of the year. Five children from a middle class family in Houston, Texas, murdered, drowned one after the other in the bathtub of their home. The oldest was seven, the youngest six months. The confessed killer was their mother, Andrea Yates. Her cases evoke both rage and sympathy across the country. Why did she do it? No one disputes that she suffered from bouts of postpartum depression with psychosis, a serious mental illness brought on by childbirth and the demands of parenting. Dr. Angie Arnold, how would or would you differentiate this case from that case? Nancy, I know a lot about the Andrea Yates case, and I don't know much.

I don't know anything about the background of the woman who just recently drowned her three children. What do you make of the claim in Yates that she was suffering bouts of postpartum depression? That's true. And I will also let you know that she was not being treated properly at all. I remember the husband got really mad when I asked why did you move the whole family into a converted school bus because she was trying to raise all these children living in a bus. That's not all. You've got that case where I believe that Yates did have a mental defect. But then you have the case of Julie Schoenecker. Take a listen to our cut 22.

This is how she looked hours after being arrested for shooting her own children to death. Both 13-year-old Bo and 16-year-old Kalix were star athletes and star students. And we now know it was just a few months ago when Kalix filed a police report saying her mother slapped and hit her in the face and even busted her lip. But that case was later closed, even though reports show Schoenecker admitted to hitting her daughter because she talked back. It's the same reason she told police she wanted her children dead, a reason many find as sick as their murders. In that case, police discovered a detailed plan to murder the children in writing, purchasing a gun far in advance, using that gun the day of the murderous police also found her drinking,

as in this case we believe the mom had been drinking, and in shinnikers sitting out by the water in a bathrobe. To Gabrielle Fonrouge, national correspondent, investigative reporter with the New York Post, what happens now? So, you know, a couple of things. One, the NYPD has uncovered surveillance footage that shows her entering the beach area with her three children and then leaving without them. So we've got that going on. And, you know, with this psych evaluation that she underwent, you know, in New York, we don't have the Baker Act. We don't have

the Marchman Act. We don't have anything like that. And this wasn't a court-ordered psychiatric evaluation. If you're in a state like New York, and if you're locked up at a precinct at the NYPD, all you have to say is, you know, I want to hurt myself or scratch yourself on your arm, and they're going to ship you off to the psych ward. You know, that's just basically how it goes. So it could have been a comment she made, could have been an action she did against herself. So she's going to undergo the psychiatric evaluation. And right now, the NYPD is canvassing for surveillance footage. They already have some of it.

Our law enforcement sources tell us they're going to get more. They're interviewing witnesses, and they're going to try to build a case. You know, right now, I believe she's considered a person of interest in the kid's death. We're going to need to get an autopsy as well. Pops won't usually drop charges until the medical examiner finishes their exam, determines the exact cause of death, you know, confirms that it is in fact a homicide, a death committed or caused by another person. And then after that, you know, we're probably going to see some pretty stiff charges if the investigation leads that way. It's very hard for a lay person, a non-medical caregiver, to understand a mother killing her own children. The only way many people can grapple with that is to believe the mother must be insane.

Because is there anything stronger on earth than a mother's love for her children? I don't think that there is. If this woman is mentally ill, she needs to be away from the general population in a jail. They would just abuse and take advantage of her. She needs to be in a mental facility where she can be helped. If not,

God have mercy on your soul. Nancy Grace Cronstorre signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.