Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 46 yr-old George Floyd dead, face down on pavement. WHAT REALLY HAPPENED?

Episode Date: June 1, 2020

Protests and riots are ongoing across the country after George Floyd dies, handcuffed in the street. Police officer Derek Chauvin has been arrested in his death. How did a counterfeit $20 lead to him being pinned at the neck by a policeman's knee?Joining Nancy Grace to discuss: Jason Oshins - New York Defense Attorney Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist James Shelnutt - 27-year Atlanta Metro Major Case detective, SWAT Officer Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Sierra Gillespie - Investigative Reporter, CrimeOnline  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. From Minneapolis to New York to D.C. to Atlanta to California, riots across our country. Why? Because George Floyd was killed by a cop. Over what? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. George Floyd was killed by a cop. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Take a listen to this.

More tense clashes around the country, including this standoff at the Barclays Center in Brooklyn, where a police car burned as officers pepper-sprayed the crowd. And in Detroit, demonstrations turned deadly when someone fired shots into a crowd killing a 19-year-old man. Officials say police were not involved. From Louisville, still reeling over the death of 26-year-old Breonna Taylor, killed by police officers as they served a narcotics warrant. It's like directly at us. Where NBC affiliate Wave 3 reporter and crew came under fire from police. To San Jose, California, protesters there flooding a freeway, smashing windows with drivers still inside before clashing

with police. And Cincinnati, where protesters stormed the area's Justice Center. Calls for justice echoing through city after city. While amid the escalating tensions, many are hoping the message does not get lost. It keeps happening. No matter what's done, no matter how many protests, it keeps happening. It's always been happening, but now it's just recorded. That's why it's getting seen more. Our friends at NBC today, that was Blaine Alexander, detailing the riots that are taking over and tearing our country apart. Why? Over the death of George Floyd. What really happened? And how is looting a Gucci store going to fix it?

You know, you've got two theories. You've got the MLK theory, peaceful, nonviolent protest. You've got the Malcolm X theory. They're not listening, so violence is necessary. What is the answer? How many lives will it take? Let's just start at the beginning. Joining me, an all-star panel, New York lawyer, Jason Oceans. Karen Stark, New York psychologist at karenstark.com. James Shelnut, 27 years, Atlanta Metro Major Case Division, SWAT, now lawyer at shelnutlawfirm.com. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University.

Death investigator, author, Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, Joseph Scott Morgan, and Sierra Gillespie, investigative reporter, CrimeOnline.com. Everybody, take a listen to this. For 31 years, Cup Foods has been a part of the South Minneapolis community. We don't just work in that community. That is our community. We know the community. It's a vibe that is unmatched to any other community. We don't just work in that community. That is our community. We know the community. It's a vibe that is unmatched to any other community. It's the best thing that's happened to our family. The family-owned business has come under fire after a phone call to police

about the passing of a counterfeit $20 bill. The staff that called the police followed protocol. When he identified the bill was fake, the patron was out of the establishment. When the police arrived, he was outside of the establishment, which normally never takes place. Why he was still there, we're not sure. Most of the time when patrons give us a counterfeit bill, they don't even know it's fake. So when the police are called, there's no crime being committed. They just want to know where they got it from. And that's usually what takes place. It's hard for me to imagine all this started over a $20 counterfeit bill.

Having prosecuted violent felonies for my whole legal career, almost, I would never even assume there'd be an arrest over one $20 bill. But why is Cup Foods falling under attack? They got a counterfeit. They call cops. That's what they're supposed to do. And to you, Sierra Gillespie, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, I imagine the reason George Floyd was still outside was either A, he didn't know he had used a counterfeit, and he, I believe, bought a pack of cigarettes and was having a smoke. I imagine that's what happened. But fill me in, Sierra Gillespie. How did the whole thing start? All right.

So it was pretty basic. As you said, he was outside. Nothing really was going on at the time. I mean, he was just kind of hanging out in a vehicle with a couple other people when the officers arrived. And from what we've heard over and over again in the weeks since this happened, he wasn't violent in any way and he wasn't resisting arrest in any way. We've seen this on surveillance video and some of the video that bystanders there were shooting.

He didn't resist arrest. He didn't put up a fight, and he was going along with everything that the officers were asking. I overall agree with you 200%, Sierra. However, there was a struggle inside the police car. I believe they were transferring him from one cop car to another. You can see a struggle in there. And according to reports, he was saying, I'm claustrophobic. He's having a hard time. I don't know that that amounts to a struggle, but there was some, something going on in the car. Here's the other thing to Jason Oceans. Even if there was a brief struggle inside

the back of the police car before he was taken out, that would still not justify what happened. Time had passed. The guy was laying on the ground face down. So, any previous resistance due to claustrophobia or whatever reason wouldn't matter. You're correct, Nancy. I mean, what you're taught at the academy or any retraining is that once you have the suspect under control, that's it. You've got them under control. So as he's down on the ground with, you know, handcuffed at that point, if he was still being belligerent, you would simply carry him and place him in the

in the vehicle. But, you know, another thing, at that point that he was violent. I can't really trust what I'm seeing in the headlines and on TV. I'll tell you what I found. It was on Washington Post website, Jason, and they had gathered surveillance video from Cup Foods, where the counterfeit bill started, from sidewalk video there at 38th Street, from people's cell phones, from all different surveillance videos. Oh, yes.

And they threw in police and EMT calls. I believe it was mostly ambulance calls. And you can put together a timeline and really see for yourself everything that we know so far happened. I found that at Washington Post. Guys, from there, this is where it starts going sideways. You are listening to CBS WCCO for Minneapolis, Reg Chapman. Now listen to Minneapolis Fox 9 KMSP Listen. The initial 911 call about a forgery in progress came in at 802 Monday evening.

Two officers walk across the street and approach opposite sides of the vehicle, which already had at least one door open. The officer on the passenger side shining a flashlight in the SUV as a man gets out. At that same time, George Floyd and one of the other officers on the driver's side begins to visibly struggle and the other officer comes to assist. Meanwhile, the man in the front passenger seat and a woman in the back seat exit the vehicle. At this point, Floyd is clearly cuffed and walked away from the SUV and seated on the sidewalk just as a park police vehicle pulls up to assist. Through body camera footage from the park Police, we see officers taking notes, talking with witnesses, and things appear to be calm and routine.

It did. It did. To James Shelnut, 27 years Metro major case, including SWAT, now lawyer. It all seemed okay. I watched myself, where the cops go to the SUV where Floyd is sitting. They get him out. At first, I thought there was a struggle right there, but it looks as if they reached in and pulled him out and immediately handcuffed him. It was very quick. And James, then they walk him over to the sidewalk and sit him down. No problem. He's still cuffed. Would you agree with that procedure that far? Yes. So far, at that point in time, it's textbook.

I do agree with it. I mean, I'm not sure why he had to be cuffed on a counterfeit 20. I don't know what was said inside Floyd's SUV that he was sitting in, but he got arrested. And so far, so good. He's cuffed, he's sitting on the sidewalk, no problem. Where does everything go sideways? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

Why are there riots? Because this guy was killed by a cop. That's why. The guy was down. He was no longer resisting arrest. Why did this happen? I am not taking this laying down. I am not taking it without a fight.

Listen to KMSP. Floyd is then escorted across the street to the waiting patrol car. From there, we can see the struggle continue. It's unclear how much time passes, but next we see the witness video, which has now been seen around the world. Please, please, please. the witness video which has now been seen around the world. Over the course of the next three and a half minutes Floyd is heard saying please I can't breathe or a combination of both at least 14 times as people on the sidewalk beg the officer to get off him or the other officers to intervene. Bro get up get in the car man. I will. Get and get in the car. I can't move. I've been whiting the whole place, man.

Get up and get in the car. Mama. Get up and get in the car right. Less than three and a half minutes into the video, Floyd goes quiet. According to the Minneapolis Fire Incident Report, EMTs were called to the scene at 830, arriving two minutes later. Medics performed pulse checks several times, finding none. Floyd's time of death at HCMC officially declared at 9.25 p.m. In about an hour, it was all over. One hour, it's gone.

Over what? A $20 bill? You know, I want to go back to you, Jason Oceans, New York defense attorney. The law is you cannot shoot a fleeing felon unless they're in the commission or you think they're in the commission of an ongoing violent or violent crime. You can't just start shooting. So why would this guy is laying face down on the street? Why was he suffocated dead? I just I don't understand it it and you know what breaks my heart so much jason is people are coming up you gotta look at that video i told you about at washington post people are coming up going hey let him up people are taking pictures and videoing it, asking the cops to get off him. One cop, I think, takes his pulse right there and can't find a pulse.

But nobody does anything, Jason. Yeah, that's the shocking part in that aspect of the video is clearly you see him within procedure now secured, face down, hands behind the back cuffed. I mean, he in that position was not struggling in any way. And that's, you know, that's the disconnect right there. Why, if he is complying at that time, regardless of anything else that happened up to it? And we all agree, he seemed to be compliant. Jackie here in the studio keeps waving notes at me

that the COD is not suffocation. Actually, Joe Scott Morgan, the family has called in an independent autopsy for an independent pathologist. And Joe Scott Morgan, let me jump ahead from where we are right now. But the official COD is a mixture. They're saying heart problems. I mean, explain to me what the official COD cause of death is. Yeah, what they're saying, Nancy, is that initially, and this is just a preliminary finding because we don't have talks yet, what they're saying is that he did in fact have

hypertensive cardiovascular disease which high blood pressure just so folks yeah high blood pressure but there's also like you can see that in the heart what happens is is the heart muscle itself actually thickens okay now that's also associated with the heart disease, which, you know, people think about high cholesterol, those sorts of things. Yes, ma'am. Please, please. Yeah. I can see the man on the ground with a knee on his throat.

Yep. And are you actually telling me he died of a pre-existing heart issue? I have low pressure. No, ma'am. Hennepin County medical examiner is saying that. Do you believe that? Am I supposed to believe him or my lion eyes just tell me josh scott please it's like you shoot him and go oh yeah he died of a heart attack yeah you have to ask yourself the question uh would he have died under any other circumstances like if he had just been walking down the street, and I probably

without the police intervening, if he's got this kind of severe cardiac problem, okay, or occlusion in his vessels, you pile on literally, not figuratively, but literally with this gentleman, his system is already compromised to this point. So it's just enough to push him over the edge. And you have to keep in mind, Nancy, he's saying that he can't breathe. You already stated that he was a smoker in addition. So he's compromised from a respiratory standpoint. His oxygen uptake is compromised. So when you get him pinned to the ground like this, and we know that this is wrong that you place your knee on somebody's neck because you can cause neurological problems you

can break his bones in his neck it just goes on and not to mention you can suffocate him but right now they're not saying that yet what they're saying is is that they're waiting for the tox to come in. Okay, so they're saying pre-existing heart problem, and they said that included in that was something that happened in police, what, impairment? What exactly are they trying to say? Well, I think the road that they're going to go down with this, Nancy, is actually a condition I know you've heard of before it's excited delirium and that is it goes back it was actually first

identified back in the 1800s and what this means is that you know let's go back to what he said I'm claustrophobic I'm claustrophobic that's an indication that this guy has got something going on in his mind I'm claustrophobic by nature. I don't like to be in tight spaces. You pin somebody down and now you're blowing their blood pressure and their pulse rate up. You're reducing their oxygen uptake. It is a lethal combination. The problem, you know, he's compliant.

The police are not compliant in this. If they were actually taking time, the most striking thing about this entire thing is that the officer is sitting there, you know, on in the street with this with George on the ground, and his knee is on his neck. And it's very nonchalant. He's got his in the army, we used to call that he was john waning, he's got his hands in his pocket with his knee, and he's just kind of casually looking around. And this man is begging for his life, and suddenly he goes silent. They don't get anything else out of him after he's actually calling, Mama, Mama, Mama, Mama. Okay, now you knew how to get to me.

To thank Karen Stark, psychologist joining me out of New York, This grown man in his last minutes is calling for his mother while a knee was dug into his neck and of all people by a cop. I mean, you know, Karen, I will bend over backwards to support the cops, to support our justice system, to support prosecutors and try to understand why they do what they do. I cannot support this. I get the riots. I understand why everybody's crazy, angry. I don't get Looting Gucci or any other store. I contacted my longtime friend, you know her well, Eleanor, Eleanor Odom that I prosecuted with. Yes, I do. In D.C. Guess where they were right before we went to air.

She and her husband, Peter, were walking to their church because it was attacked last night. And they're trying to go over there and help fix it. Now, I don't know how that's honoring Mr. Floyd, but I do know why everybody's angry. The fact that he's calling out for his mother. I mean, they couldn't hear that? Well, as you could tell, Nancy, they might have been able to hear it.

I'm sure they heard it. But this guy, I like what Joe said, that it had to do with him having this John Wayne stance where he could care less what he was saying. And the fact that he was calling for his mother tells you he was dying. He was desperate. I heard my own mother call for her mother when she was really, really in pain. As for the violence, it's not a surprise to me when you take huge crowds of people who are frustrated

and filled with hurt about the way they've been treated in the system, about racism, discrimination, and you have them in this tense environment, so many people, it's inevitable that violence is going to occur. Either the police will react and they'll respond to that or their frustrations will boil over. It's a crowd mentality.

It's very different than an individual. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The death of 46-year-old George Floyd has sparked protests and violence all across our country. And it's easy to say that the violence and the protests are tearing our country apart. But what about, as I see it, the murder of George Floyd? Video surveillance is showing in a struggle, in a struggle with police in the back of the police car before being pulled out. Now, many would argue, let me go to you, James Shelna. You were 27 years Metro Major case detective, SWAT, now lawyer. Many are arguing, well, he put up a fight in the back of the police car. All right? That's bad.

Don't put up a fight against cops. But my point is, once he's pulled out and put on the ground in handcuffs, he's subdued. Why did it have to go further than that? What should the cop have done, Shelnut? Well, I don't understand why you take a combative individual out of a police car anyway. I understand that sometimes people try to kick windows out of cars. That's a good point. Yeah, I mean, I've had windows kicked out of the back of cars when I put people in the back of cars. I get it. I understand. That's just a bad idea to me. You know, there's ankle restraints and leg restraints to prevent

people from doing that. It's a bad idea. But number two, once you take him out and you put somebody on the ground that they're on their stomach, it is not very difficult to control that person if they are handcuffed. You know, there's simple techniques such as, you know, raising the wrist up in there a little further. It doesn't take putting your knee on the back of someone's neck to maintain control of a man that's on the ground. I just, I can't fathom under what training scenario or what real life scenario that that would be appropriate. Take a listen to our friends in Minneapolis. This is WCCO4, Christiane Cordero. Floyd was arrested around 8 p.m. for forgery, a non-violent crime that implies he tried to use forged documents at a nearby deli.

Officers say he resisted arrest before this person started filming. You can see him struggling, saying, I can't breathe. Another officer faces the crowd the whole time. What you cannot see is what happens four minutes in. Floyd appears to go unconscious. The MPD officer holds his knee on him for another four minutes until he's pulled onto a stretcher, then taken to HCMC, where he died. Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry saw this entire video, called it wrong on every level. This does not reflect the values that Chief Arredondo has worked tirelessly to instill.

It does not represent the training we've invested in or the measures we've taken to ensure accountability. We're learning more about what happened inside the Cup Foods. Back to Minneapolis WCCO, this is Esme Murphy. County Attorney Mike Freeman was overheard telling a reporter that all four police officers had invoked their Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination and were not cooperating. Police also released the transcript of the 911 call from Cup Foods. The 911 caller says a man gave them fake bills and that the man is sitting on his car because

he is awfully drunk and he's not in control of himself. The 911 caller seems more concerned about the man than fearful, telling the dispatcher he's not in control of himself. The 911 caller seems more concerned about the man than fearful, telling the dispatcher he's not acting right. Now, the medical examiner announced this evening they are waiting on lab results for a final determination of cause of death in this case. Legal experts say the cause of death is critical because if it turns out to be asphyxiation, that and that video would make prosecutors' jobs much easier.

Let me understand something. Inside the cut video to Sierra Gillespie, investigative reporter, CrimeOnline.com. Sierra, in the video, we see him lying there, flat, not moving. But in Cup Foods, they say he was acting strangely what do we know yeah nancy he was acting a little bit out of the norm of character we are still waiting on toxicology we touched on that a little bit so people are kind of at a question mark here what was really in his system he could have i don't know represented a little bit of a drunk person at times, kind of fumbling around a bit, but it was nothing that was belligerent in the store. It was nothing that was

cause for, we need police here right now because we're fearing for our danger. It wasn't something like this. It was just more, this guy isn't really right right now. We have this $20 counterfeit bill. We need to call police because that's kind of protocol. Apparently, weaving, having difficulty walking, and that was before 911 was called. But it seems to me, Joseph Scott Morgan, that if you were drunk, if you had been drinking, that you'd be even easier to subdue. It's not like he was belligerent or angry, not an angry, agitated drunk, but an unsteady on your feet drunk. If that, that makes it seem like it would be easier to subdue him, Joe Scott. Yeah, if that in fact is the agent that we're talking about from a chemical standpoint,

if it's something other, it could trigger another response. So that's why they're waiting on tox. Well, it's not necessarily completely why. Tox is interminably slow, as you well know, you know, in dealing with these cases. And they're going to do a standard panel on him, Nancy. They're going to look not only for a BA, which is the blood alcohol level to see if that was on board, but they're also going to look for standard things like opiates. They're going to look for benzodiazepine. Uh, they're going to look for cocaine metabolite and even THC, all of that stuff will be covered. I think that they're going to fast track this. I would imagine this isn't going to be like, you know, in the old days where we had to sit around and wait and wait and wait and wait. And there's also a political aspect of this. I'm sure that the DA, the prosecutor, the police and the ME are all going to meet before this information is released. And my fear is that if it doesn't say what either side wants to hear,

it's going to create a problem. But we have to be patient. We have to cool our heads. We have to prevail. At this point, trusting what anybody says, I'm glad we're bringing in an independent pathologist. Yes, I am too. To Jason Oceans.

So all the cops lawyered up and took the fifth? Do I have Jason Oceans with me? In the meantime, while we wait to re-hook him up, take a listen to CBS WCCO 4 Minneapolis, Jennifer Mayerle. Department of Public Safety Chief John Harrington that came back up to the podium to let us know that Derek Chauvin is in custody. Derek Chauvin is a former Minneapolis police officer seen prominently on the video that has been seen around the world who is on the ground with his knee on George Floyd's neck.

People have been calling for his arrest since seeing that video. They have been calling for his arrest protesting rioting in the streets of Minneapolis. Derek Chauvin is now in custody. We are being told that he was taken into custody by the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension. Let's listen to Chief Harrington delivering that news. I've just received information from Andrew Evans, the superintendent of the Bureau of Criminal Apprehension that the officer who has been identified as Derek Chauvin in the death of Mr. Lloyd has been taken into custody by the BCA. We will be giving out further information when we have it. At this point, we do not have any further information on charging decisions that will be coming from the county attorney. Learned a lot about the BCA there.

They call it Bureau of Criminal Apprehension, not Fugitive Squad, BCA. Derek Chauvin, 44-year-old, under arrest in the death of George Floyd. Do I have Jason Oceans back? Jason, are you there? Yes, no. Okay, I don't hear him. So I'm going to go to James Shelnut on that. James Shelnut, sounds like the cops are all taking the fifth.

Hold on, Shelnut. To you, Karen Stark, New York psychologist. Explain to me when you see a cop, you see Chauvin with his knee on the neck of Floyd. Why do the other cops just stand there and don't do anything? Because they don't care, Nancy. I think it's deeper than that. I don't know that they don't care. It's a fellow officer, so they're supporting what he's doing.

They even went, one of them went and checked the pulse and knew there was no pulse. But it's a situation where I believe they're paralyzed. Not saying that it's right. Well, wouldn't you call it peer pressure? Exactly. It's their fellow officer. And so they are in a position where do they go against him or do they seem like they're supporting him? And they're frozen.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the death of George Floyd, unarmed. Mr. Floyd dying, his face down on the pavement after telling cops repeatedly, reportedly 14 times, I can't breathe, and calling out for his mother as bystanders stood by, begged the cops to stop. They didn't stop. Now he's dead.

What about the other cops involved? What's happening with them? Take a listen now to our friends at KSTP ABC. Maya Santamaria says the two men worked for her as recently as last year. She says she does not know if Derek Chauvin and George Floyd ever actually spoke to each other. The first time she saw this video, Maya Santamaria says it took her a moment to make the connection. My friend said, this is your guy. The guy who used to work for you. And I can see it's not him. And then they did the close up. And that's when I said, oh my

God, that's him. She says now former Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin works security for her at El Nuevo Rodeo for 17 years before she sold the club just months ago. He sometimes had a real short fuse and he seemed afraid when there was an altercation. He always resorted to pulling out his mace and ever spraying everybody right away when I felt it was unwarranted. Even more surreal, Santa Maria says, is that George Floyd, the man pinned under Chauvin's knee on Monday night, worked for her too. So what does this mean to Sierra Gillespie? They knew each other? I don't know that we can say definitively that they knew each other, Nancy, but they were in the same community. They probably may have even run into each other at some point ahead of this. But I think it's important to know what we just heard in that news package, that Chauvin may have had

a history with violence. She said that he always ran for his mace instead of kind of just talking things out. What we do know, he had been involved in several other officer-involved shootings over his time with the Minneapolis Police Department, and nearly 20 complaints were filed against him. Now, I looked into this. We weren't sure exactly what the complaints are, but, I mean, 18 complaints over his 19 years with the department, that sounds like a lot to me. James Shelnut, is that a lot? It sounds like a lot to me, too. Yeah, I think that's a lot.

You know, the reality of it, Nancy, is that if you're doing your job as a police officer, you are going to get complaints. They're unavoidable. It's going to happen. If you do it long enough and you do the right thing and you step up and you enforce the law, people don't like getting arrested and people don't like the police. They are going to complain. That number of complaints is the number of complaints that as a police administrator, you start looking a little bit deeper into these complaints, the more cumulative they become. And you start wondering to yourself and start asking questions. Do we have a problem with this officer? This is a lot of complaints. So now we know there are charges, but listen to the charges.CCO for Minneapolis ask me Murphy listen former

Minneapolis police officer Derek Chauvin has been charged by the head of a county attorney's office with murder and with manslaughter county attorney Mike Freeman left open the possibility of more charges against Derek Chauvin as well as charges against the other three officers. The investigation is ongoing. We felt it appropriate to focus on the most dangerous perpetrator. But we are leading the investigation. The announcement of a possible charge had been widely anticipated at a news conference yesterday. The fact that it didn't happen has been criticized for fueling the frustration behind last night's protests. We have now been able to put together the evidence that we need. Even as late as yesterday afternoon, we didn't have

all that we needed. We have now found it. To you, Sierra Gillespie, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, what are the charges? So right now, the only officer that is facing charges is Derek officer Chauvin, and he's facing third degree murder and second degree manslaughter. And these are kind of interesting charges here. Third degree murder. I don't think you hear that that often. And basically what that just means is he didn't intend to kill like he didn't wake up this morning with a premeditated. I'm going to kill George Floyd. It wasn't a situation like that. But when he was put in the situation, he didn't have any regard for human life. He knew that there was a risk and he just acted carelessly.

To Jason Ocean's New York defense attorney, what does third degree murder mean exactly? Well, it was described pretty well. I mean, it's it's that that act that causes it's like a criminally negligent homicide. I mean, a reckless act without regard, knowing that something it pulls away the intention. It's a watered down murder charge in layman's terms. What was the sentence on a third degree i haven't looked into minnesota statute but i gotta imagine murder minnesota penalty jackie and nancy i will tell you this many states don't have a third degree yeah that's my point a lot of people don't even have it because it's so watered down and it's so weak. And you know, the reality is,

Jason, you could say that about a lot of murders, the majority of murders. I didn't wake up that morning in Maine to shoot my wife. It just happened. Doesn't matter. The law, as I remember, presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. Jason, as I would tell juries, it's like taking a piece of fine china and then throwing it down onto a cement floor. And then say, oops, I didn't mean to break it. No, you point a gun and pull the trigger. The law presumes you mean to kill.

You hold your knee on a man's neck for this long. The law presumes you mean to kill. You hold your knee on a man's neck for this long, the law presumes you mean to suffocate him. A bit more nuanced right there. That's a good summation for the jury. Are you telling me I'm wrong? No, I would never do that. I'm just saying it's a bit more nuanced. But you are right in that state.

I can't believe a third degree murder jackie says it's 25 years according to our legal expert google uh google google and google so tell me about is that the maximum is that the maximum yes that is the max the max right what's the minimum what's the mint okay there's nancy this is James. There's a recommended 12 and a half years under their sentencing guidelines that this person can serve with no prior convictions, no prior history. And, Jack, also while you're there, look up in Minnesota, put Minnesota second-degree manslaughter penalty. So we're looking at 12.5 to 25 on that. Why? I mean, Shelnut, you're not just major case or SWAT.

You're also a lawyer at ShelnutLawFirm.com. That's your website. I think you're a lawyer. So how is my argument just nuanced, nuanced? As Jason Oceans just said, it's dead on that's the law what does it say up to 10 years in prison however most likely we'll start five five to ten on second degree manslaughter so tell me what was wrong with that argument why is this not murder one shall not i i think that it could be you know you and i both know that uh that that

intent to commit a murder can be formed in the blink of an eye malice and forethought can can just be an instant just a moment before this occurs this went on for eight minutes maybe minute number one it wasn't intentional maybe Maybe minute number two, maybe minute number five, maybe minute number seven. But I think that by the time you get to minute number eight, and this man goes from talkative to agitated to unconscious, telling you that he can't breathe and you continue to put your knee on the back of his neck, that's a problem and you start to really get close to being able to meet that bird. Take a listen to Minneapolis News reporter Esme Murphy, WCCO4.

This new charging document does contain a revelation. It says Floyd did not die of strangulation or asphyxiation. The document says Floyd had heart disease and that the combined effects of Mr. Floyd being restrained by the police, his underlying health conditions, and any potential intoxicants in his system likely contributed to his death. The third-degree murder charge is the same charge Freeman used to successfully prosecute Minneapolis police officer Mohamed Noor in the 2017 death of Justine Ruschick-Damond. Noor is now serving 12 and a half years in prison.

I don't believe it. Joe Scott, tell me if I'm wrong. I do not believe this guy died from heart disease, restraint, underlying health conditions, and other intoxicants in his system, which they don't even know what those intoxicants may be right now. I don't believe that. The man's saying, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe, I can't breathe. He dies. I mean, well, that's that's the cool thing about having Michael Bodden come in behind them, because right now, you know, they're saying that that there's no evidence of of strangulation, asphyxiation. And we know just from years of talking about this,

Nancy, some things we look for hemorrorrhaging strap muscles of the neck. Does he have petechiae in the eye? All those things that go along with an asphyxial death. What Biden is going to do now, my understanding at least, is that he is going to perform or has performed a second autopsy. So what that means is that everything that was taken in Hennepin County at the medical examiner's office, he will be able to review. There's even an off chance that he will take a look at Mr. Floyd's body again in another location. And he's going to be looking for trauma of the neck. He's going to look at this very carefully. You know, Biden was neck deep and no pun intended in the Epstein case. He was present for Epstein.

So, he has a plethora, as you know, of experience in these types of deaths. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not even concerned about Bodden's experience. I know Bodden. He's a great M.E. I just, I want answers like everybody else. We wait. As God willing, justice unfolds.

No matter what it takes. no matter what it takes no matter what it causes the truth is what we're looking for Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off goodbye friend this is an iHeart podcast