Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 8-year-old boy & 4-year-old little sister found hanged with dog leash in basement, perv mom calls 911.

Episode Date: December 3, 2019

Lisa Snyder's young children are found hanging from a dog cable in the basement. Snyder tells police that her son was suicidal and "didn't want to go alone." Evidence, however, suggests that the children were killed by their own mother.Joining Nancy Grace to discuss the case: Ashley Willcott - Judge, Trial Attorney, Anchor at Court TV Cloyd Steiger - 36 years Seattle Police Department, 22 years Homicide detective, Author "Seattles Forgotten Serial Killer-Gary Gene Grant" Dr. Caryn Stark - Psychologist, Dr Katherine Maloney - Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office, Buffalo, New York Alexis Tereszcuk - RadarOnline Investigative Reporter Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. A Pennsylvania mom says she goes downstairs into the family basement only to find her eight-year-old little boy, Connor, and her four-year-old little girl, Brinley, dead. To make matters worse, death by suicide, a double hanging by the family dog's new metal dog lead. How could this happen? Police immediately seized the little boy's Xbox. He was known to play on it, to send messages. They seized iPads, phones, a laptop. The children rushed to a local hospital where they were put on life support. They died 14 minutes apart. We want justice. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. caller. Both children have been there, hung in their unknown time at this time. Burks, can you repeat that? 441, both children are hanging in the basement. Burks, Captain 441. Captain 441, any indication from the caller if the scene is safe or how these

children ended up there? She mentioned that the eight-year-old has been bullied and has made threats of doing this but didn't want to go alone. And finally, he may be the, like, rather the situation. At this time, it should just be the mother of the two children on scene. Two children, dead, hung in the basement. It's really hard for me to believe that an eight-year-old little boy, Connor Snyder, spoke of suicide and had the wherewithal to hang himself. Is it possible? Yes. Is it probable? I don't think so. And he didn't want to go by himself, so what? He lured his four-year-old little sister to hang herself as well?

How could an eight-year-old pull that off? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. And I can tell you one thing. I want justice. As police intensified their search for the truth, they honed in on an X-Box for clues after an eight-year-old boy and his four-year-old sister are found hanged in the basement of their Pennsylvania home by a dog leash as mystery continues to surround their deaths. Now, let me make one thing very, very clear. Do I like reporting on this? No, I do not. It reminds me of trying cases in front of juries. The words are bitter

in my mouth, but I want the truth. And not only do I want the truth, I want other moms and dads, grandparents, aunts, uncles to know what happened so they can avoid a horrible thing like this happening in their family. Joining me right now on All-Star Panel, first of all, judge and trial lawyer anchor at Court TV. You can find her at AshleyWilcott.com. Ashley Wilcott joining me. Cloyd Steiger, 36 years Seattle police, 22 years homicide author. You can find him at CloydSteiger.com. Renowned psychologist, Dr. Karen Stark, joining me out of London today. You

can find her at karenstark.com. Dr. Catherine Maloney, the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office, Buffalo, New York. You can also find her at nickelcityforensics.com. But right now, to investigative reporter with RadarOnline.com, Alexis Teresha. I'm having a really hard time understanding how an 8-year-old boy and his 4-year-old little sister were masterminds of a double suicide. Alexis, tell me the fact scenario surrounding their death. Well, the mom says she made a call to 911. She said she had been upstairs in the house. The kids have been playing together. She said she decided to go outside for a cigarette. She comes back about 10 minutes later. She usually hears

the children. She hears them playing. She hears them laughing. Maybe she hears them fighting. She doesn't hear them at all. So she comes back inside the house. She looks around. She doesn't see them. She goes downstairs in the basement of the house where she sees the children are hanging from a dog lead. And what she sees in the scene is the little boy, eight, little sister, four, have stood up they've tied their necks the rope around their necks stood on dining room table chairs and kicked the chairs away and she finds them hanging there you know it's almost too much for me to take in alexis you have a beautiful beautiful little boy how old is

he now he is five oh lord have mercy just, it seems like yesterday, you know, we were all there in the hospital. I remember your lung collapsed and you had so many problems and you were there for my husband. He loved it. And now he's five years old. Ashley, I know how old your three are. And it's not just us. Everybody on the panel either has a child or has a relative child four years old. Don't judge me, especially you, Ashley Wilcott, Miss Perfect. But I was just putting together 2016 Christmas album. I was determined that I would not be three years behind come this Christmas, just two years behind. And I was looking at the pictures of the twins, and it nearly broke my heart to think, Ashley Wilcott, trial lawyer and judge, that these two could have masterminded their own suicides.

Ashley, take a listen to our friends at WTXF, Fox 29. This is Jeff Cole. The Berks County District Attorney is refusing comment on the investigation, but the claims of bullying have shifted focus somewhat to the local elementary school Connor attended where counseling is offered. Connor was a beloved member of the Greenwich Elementary School community who enjoyed his peers and teachers. He's dearly missed, is fondly remembered for the smile that he brought on his face

and he brought to the people he encountered each day. Search warrants reveal investigators have taken electronic equipment from the home, including an Xbox and the plastic-coated wire. Investigators learned Snyder had multiple cell phones and returned with warrants to obtain two of them. The probe continues to find out what happened inside the two-story brick that stands tonight with all the shades down. The county corridor has not ruled on a cause of death saying there is still more testing required. Last Saturday would have been Connor's ninth birthday. Snyder

immediately called 911 and first responders at the scene were able to revive both children. They were raced to the Lehigh Valley Hospital's Cedar Crest, where they were put on life support. Both children died three days later and 14 minutes apart after they were taken off life support. At first, of course, we see the cops seizing all of the electronics, including an Xbox. To Cloyd Steiger, Seattle PD, including 22 years on homicide, why the Xbox and what information can be obtained from an Xbox, Cloyd? Well, an Xbox is a computer like any other computer. It has a hard drive that searches and other things can be gleaned from by computer experts. And I'm sure they took all the electronics out of the house

because they're seeing if this kid really contemplated suicide. Did he tell anybody about it online? Did he search for things online having to do with that? So that would be the reason they take that. It's a good piece of information or a good source of evidence. Ashley Wilcott, let's talk about Xbox. You know, when John David finishes his homework and whatever he's got to do, Lucy is not obsessed as much. She's all about TikTok right now, taking pictures of herself. But Xbox, I hear John David on his PS4 and he's playing games. And at the same time, he's talking. It sounds like he's talking to 10 different children and they're all, I don't know what they do. I stand over his shoulder.

I find out who he's talking to and playing with. And then I let nature take its course. But Ashley, what can be gleaned, as Cloyd Steiger was saying, from the Xbox that this eight-year-old boy, Connor Snyder, was playing on? What you can glean is a whole lot of information about this mother's allegation statement that he killed himself. You want to look at what was his demeanor? What was he doing? How was he acting? And guess what? I would suggest that if you have any child, especially an eight-year-old who's playing on an Xbox and you see has history of playing with

friends and playing different games and doing different things, that is not indicative to me of an eight-year-old who is depressed or has such issues that they might try to kill themselves. Number two, I have to throw in why I have a chance. An eight-year-old is not going to hang themselves. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Their mother reportedly told a dispatcher bullying could be to blame for the tragedy. Cardiac arrest, pediatric, 6 and 73. The initial transmission from dispatchers on September 23rd let first responders know it was two children that needed help inside this Albany Township home. The horrifying detail about how they were found came next.

Both children are hanging in the basement. It was 8-year-old Connor and 4-year-old Brindley Snyder found hanging in the basement. Court documents show it was their mother, Lisa, who says she found her children. Prosecutors confirm state police have gotten several search warrants in the investigation, including for two of Lisa's cell phones. Lisa has not spoken publicly about her loss. And for more than two weeks, with autopsies deemed still inconclusive, no clear answers about why or how the young brother and sister wound up in that basement. Court documents revealed the children were hanging three feet apart with a wire wrapped around a support beam in the basement and around both their necks.

And on the floor, two chairs knocked over. It's really, really hard for me to hear those facts. You're hearing our friend at WTXF, Fox 29. That was Jeff Cole reporting. Interesting. I'm taking in every detail of what I'm hearing. To Dr. Catherine Maloney, everyone, we are really privileged to have the Deputy Chief Medical Examiner, Erie County Medical Examiner's Office in Buffalo. You can also find her at nickelcityforensics.com.

Dr. Catherine, I'm hearing about, now one thing is really concerning me, the wire. The wire. Because we first heard that their hangings were affected by a or more than one dog leash. Now I'm hearing a wire was involved. Explain to me, Dr. Catherine Maloney, how that would work. Well, generally with a hanging, you basically need to provide enough pressure around the neck that you're closing off the blood vessels that are going to and from the head. So really any object might work.

So electrical wires or a dog leash or a rope or something like that. These objects also work just as well for a ligature strangulation, but could potentially be used for a hanging. I just don't understand how an eight-year-old could affect this double suicide. It's a wire dog leash made for big dogs. Jackie here is telling me. That makes more sense. Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. At first when I heard dog leash, I thought of our dog leash, which is nylon or rope of some sort. And that's what I thought of, but I wasn't thinking of a metal-type dog leash, Alexis. It's actually a dog lead, and so it's less of the material and more of something that would lead a bigger dog.

Does that make sense? Yes, it does. Take a listen, Alexis, to our friends at Philly NBC10. This is Stephen Fisher. Two kids were found unconscious inside this house here in Albany Township. A few days later, they were both pronounced dead at the hospital. The Berks County District Attorney along with state police, they're investigating, but so far there are many more questions than answers. Police and first responders were called to this house along State Route 143 in Albany Township, Berks County.

When they got here, two kids were found inside and unconscious. Both were flown to the hospital. Then three days later on Thursday, 8-year-old Connor Snyder and 4-year-old Brinley Snyder were pronounced dead. Police have only said that their cause of death was related to injuries they sustained last Monday. With many questions going unanswered this week, rumors have started to swirl here in this small town of about 1,700 people. Autopsies were scheduled today, which would have determined the cause and manner of death

for both Brindley and Conner. However, the Quarters report came back unclear, saying they need additional forensic testing. Police and the DA's office are trying to determine if this was some sort of accident or if a crime took place. Okay, I'm trying to figure out what they're looking for and before I go to Dr. Catherine Maloney out of Buffalo, regarding what we're just hearing, the coroner's report is unclear. I don't know how clear it's got to be to know they were strangled by a dog lead. But regarding taking the Xbox of

the little boy, eight-year-old Connor Snyder, I know that Microsoft has just added anti-bullying message filters to Xbox Live. Bullying, racism, toxic language have long been problems on Xbox, basically as long as it has existed. But now instead of just moderating that afterwards, Microsoft has actually added four levels of text filters to Xbox Live. And you can have friendly, medium, mature, and unfiltered. What I'm telling you is that it's not just a game. Children, and I guess adults, get on Xbox and play, but they speak to each other and they're not just playing a game. It's just like being in an arcade with a bunch of little boys or girls playing Xbox.

They can say anything they want to. They can bully. They can say racist slurs. They can curse. And they can type and speak bullying language. Now, immediately cops start looking at this child's Xbox, but I noticed they had to give a warrant to mommy to get her cell phones man i'd be laying on the courthouse steps begging please take my blood take my dna take my fingerprints take my cell phone whatever you want just help me you know to dr katherine maloney

they're found hanging in the basement with dog leads, metal dog leads. What's the problem? Why can't the medical examiner make a decision? The coroner's report came back unclear and needs more forensic testing. What does that mean? Forensic testing on what? It's possible they're having experts look at some of the findings. For example, sometimes you might have an anthropologist look at the neck structures and sometimes they can determine if there are injuries that are more consistent with some type

of strangulation versus hanging a suicidal hanging so they might be waiting for something like that or it's possible they're waiting for more investigation to be performed by the police or maybe medical records or the investigation with the school to be completed before they make a final determination because nothing definitive was found at autopsy, especially after a few days in the hospital. Maybe it was difficult for them to determine if this could have been, you know, a ligature strangulation versus a hanging versus a manual strangulation. But then there's so many factors weighing into this decision. Karen Stark, do you believe an 8-year-old could be bullied that badly on Xbox,

on the Internet, so as to commit suicide and take the little sister with him? An 8-year-old even beginning to, an 8-year-old who really doesn't have good hand eye coordination as I've read this little boy didn't have being able to do all of that and think ahead and figure out how to hang himself and his sister none of that is probable to me I know it's almost too much for me to take in that an eight-year-old could do this, but I want you, especially Karen, to listen to what we hear out of Berks County. by himself and that is why he had Brinkley with it. As you will recall, Connor was only eight years of age. Pennsylvania State Police gathered video from the bus, the school bus, which brought Connor home on September 23rd, 2019.

The video showed no signs that Connor was in any distress whatsoever. In fact, from the video, he appeared to be a happy child. Other witnesses also told police that Connor was not bullied at school

and never complained about it. School officials and family members were interviewed and indicated that Connor never expressed that he was bullied or suicidal. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The Pennsylvania State Police also responded. They immediately obtained a search warrant to search the residence. And the initial search warrant found a number of things, including the vinyl wire tie out dog cable, which was labeled super and 250 pounds.

This dog lead cable had been ordered by the defendant the day before, September 22nd, 2019. And Lisa Snyder picked up this dog cable on September 23rd at 9.30 a.m. from the Walmart. Okay, hold on just a moment. Welcome back. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories, and with me, an all-star panel, Ashley Wilcott, Cloyd Steiger, Dr. Karen Stark, Dr. Catherine Maloney, and Alexis Tereschuk, investigative reporter. Did anybody but me

just hear that? Alexis Tereszczuk, you didn't tell me that the dog leash had just been ordered the day before it was used to hang the children. You know, I always say there is no coincidence in criminal law, Alexis. What do we know about the ordering of the dog leash? Well, the mom said that she ordered it from Walmart. She picked it up that morning and that the kids wanted to play with it because it was brand new. That was her explanation to the police when they got there and found the children hanging. She said they had wanted to play with it since it was a brand new toy and she went ahead and let them. But yeah, she ordered it the day before. Okay, I've got a problem with that. So it's all coming together now that based on a video of the little boy on the school bus, he didn't seem to be depressed in any way, to be afraid in any way.

So it concerns me. Of course, Ashley Wilcott, you're raising children of your own. You see them every day at work. Videos don't always tell everything. Children smile for the camera when inside they're dying. They're being abused. I mean, look at the House of Horrors out in California, the Turpin family. Remember the whole bunch of them who put on their matching Disney outfits and smile for the camera? They were being starved and chained to their beds at home every day. Yeah, and it's really important to keep in mind, I see abused and neglected children as a judge in juvenile court all the time, and the

reality is, A, they can appear to be really, really happy, and B, a lot of kids, even young kids, statistically do commit suicide that on the outside appear to be perfectly happy and smiling and making A's in extracurricular activities and everybody likes them and they can still either commit suicide or be the victim of child abuse and neglect. So a really important point that you made. I got another problem with this case. When one fact is off kilter, I look for a way to explain it. I had what I consider the best trial judge ever as my judge for many years in inner city Atlanta,

Luther Alverson. And he, maybe he was common sense because he used to be a barber before he was a judge. He would tell every single jury under the law, the criminal code, it is your duty to make all witnesses speak the truth and impugn perjury on no one. In other words, facts can seem inconsistent, but you can divine a way to make them fit like a Rubik's Cube so they all make sense and none of them are false. But I've got a problem with this. Take a listen to our friends over at WGAL News 8. This is Meredith Georgeson. The brother and sister were found hanging in the basement of this home, but police hope it's the other items they found in the house that will help unlock the mystery of their deaths.

Eight-year-old Connor Snyder and four-year-old Brinley Snyder were pronounced dead three days after they were found suspended from a basement beam with their necks. Autopsy resu and no one has been charg unanswered questions. But the investigation is far rely on physical evidence why we search warrants for phone stuff,

computer stuff. It's just still a very active, ongoing investigation. Among the electronics, a search warrant shows police gathered an Xbox gaming console. And we spoke with neighbors on either side of this home, and they say they are distraught by this news but didn't want to comment further. You know, to Cloyd Steiger, 22 years homicide detective and author, Cloyd, the gold standard to me is Mark Klass, because when his daughter Polly went missing from a spend-the-night party at her own home okay cops came to him he insisted take my dna take my fingerprints whatever you want search my place search my car i don't care just find the person that took polly polly was murdered certainly mark class her father had nothing to do with it but i find it very disturbing that this mom, you know, with most moms and dads,

they'll sign a consent. Hey, look anywhere you want. They had to get a search warrant from this mom. I don't understand what was it on her cell phone. She didn't want anybody to see. Well, I think first of all, getting a search warrant is just a prudent thing to do. Even if a person gives you consent, they can withdraw that consent at any time. So I'm not worried about that, but you're right that maternal instinct is the most powerful instinct a mother has and to protect their child and to want things done. A couple of things, when the paramedics were working on her children in the basement, she stayed upstairs. A mother, if not restrained, that would not be right down there

with their children. Straight out to Alexis Reschuk, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, the case takes a very bizarre turn with animal cruelty charges. I will let you make this announcement. So in the course of the investigation, after her children are found hanging in the basement, the police start searching the few cell phones they can find. They actually can't find all her cell phones. And then what they discover are photographs that she has taken of her sexually abusing the family dog. And she has sent these photographs to another person. So they contact this other person and they get these pictures. They are charging her with animal

cruelty, which is sexual relations with an animal because of what she has done with the dog. Okay, Alexis, I'm not one in favor of dead air, but I just had to take that in for just a moment. Okay, Dr. Maloney, as renowned as you are, and Ashley Wilcott with your Juris Doctorate degree, Cloyce Tiger, homicide detective, I think we all need to take a back seat for a moment and bring in a shrink. Dr. Karen Stark, help me out, Karen. Dog sex.

It exists, Nancy. It's a perversion. So it's not something that you're going to find all the time. It's not usual. But this is it. Well, I hope not, Karen. I hope not. I mean, how can you even talk about it like that? Like you're reading, you know, the weather report.

Because there are people that are not normal in the world. She was sexually abusing the family dog. This is a mom. Not your regular mom, Nancy. This is a disturbed person. Well, you can say that again. A very disturbed person. And they would never have known if they hadn't looked at her.

Now I know why she made him get a warrant for her cell phone. Yep. I get it. Ashley Wilcott. And we wonder, we wonder why children have so many emotional problems. Mom is having sex with the family dog. Help me, Ashley. I can't help you. I don't get it. Okay. It's a perversion, but here's what I want to suggest is, isn't it interesting, Nancy, how when you start with a mother's story that doesn't make good sense of, oh, the eight-year-old

hung himself and also his four-year-old sister, and you start digging deeper, not only do you feel like, hmm, there's something suspicious, you also start to find evidence of this type of behavior that, let's face it, is not normal, is not okay. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The report documents reveal that Lisa Snyder has been charged with murdering her 8-year-old son and 4-year-old daughter. A disturbing case to be sure. She was taken by police from the district judge's office here in Hamburg to Berks County Prison where she will be held without bail. reported to you back in October. Police found the children hanging from a plastic covered wire cable tied to a beam in the basement of the family home along Route 143 near Kempton. Two chairs were knocked over nearby. Police had received a 911 call September 23rd. The children

died three days later at the hospital. Search warrants indicated police seized laptops, cell phones and Xbox console. They also wanted to examine the family dog, but Snyder had told them that she had given the dog away. Police. Say Snyder told them that her older son, Connor had been bullied at school and indicated he wanted to take his own life, but another resident of the home

contradicted that report, saying that the boys seemed fine getting off the bus from school. Police say they also found evidence that Snyder had searched online for ways to hang oneself. Oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive. I can't take credit for that, Shakespeare said at first. That was WGAL News 8 reporter Barbara Barr. So not only do we have heinous photos on her cell phone, according to police, of her engaging in relations with the family dog, a 50-pound dog, but also searches for how to hang one's self. Alexis Tereschuk joining me, investigative reporter, RadarOnline.com. Alexis, what is the very latest?

She has been charged with first-degree murder. She's been charged with tampering with evidence. She's been charged with harm with a child. And it's technically unrelated to the murder of her two children, but she has been charged with animal cruelty, which was something that, as I said, the police discovered after she killed her children. She is in prison or she is in jail awaiting trial right now. This is in Pennsylvania to Ashley Wolcott. Does Pennsylvania have the death penalty?

It does, and they have not determined, it's my understanding, whether or not they will seek it. But certainly the charges are eligible, at least one of them, for the death penalty. Well, whenever you have, in most jurisdictions that have the death penalty, more than one body, more than one dead body, it's mass murder. And we think of mass murder as many, many people murdered. But mass murder is defined in many criminal code books as more than one body. Now, here you've got that.

You also have children young of a tender age, which in many jurisdictions qualifies as a condition to seek the death penalty, and extremely heinous circumstances. Also, all three of those would qualify for a death penalty procedure. But also, in many jurisdictions, when the murderer is in conjunction with another felony, such as a gun felony or child abuse that may also qualify for a death penalty trial. Right now, if she is convicted, mommy is looking at two life sentences. There is also life without the possibility of parole to Alexis Tereschuk or anybody on panel in Pennsylvania. Is there a possibility of life without the possibility of parole? Yes, that is a possibility because they can work out a deal with her. They can decide not to seek the death penalty. The death penalty is in some cases, I mean, this is two young children.

To me, it seems like an easy case. You would give them on the death penalty, but a lot of people are maybe not willing to do that. And so they would do life without possibility of parole so that they guarantee that she would not get out. You know, she has another child, a 17 year old-old, and she is fairly young. She could have more children if she got out. They want to make sure that this never happens again. Well, she's got one thing to be happy about. The last prisoner executed by the lecture chair in Pennsylvania was Elmo Smith. That was back in 62. They then passed a law changing the mode of execution to lethal injection, the needle, which is the current means of execution. So at least she can just drift off to a pleasant sleep. But that's not what happened to her two children, 8-year-old Connor and 4-year-old Brinley Snyder.

I've learned a lot about the children since this happened. I know that Connor was very happy. He got along with all his classmates. He loved video games. Brinley Louise was a preschool student with a brilliant smile, especially when standing next to her big brother. I know that very often Connor would get little rewards at school, and he would always pick something that he could take home to his sister, that he would giggle during reading workshop, poring over the books in the third grade class there at Greenwich-LaHartsville Elementary. He loved science, like my son, specifically rocks and minerals. And he would find rocks and bring them to show the teacher. And he loved the little sister, loved, was always trying to find things at

school to bring home to her. He laughed all the time. I know that he was funny and sweet, and I know a lot about the little girl. She adored, adored her big brother and had a smile that lit up a room. She was in her second year pre-k at Early Learning Center in Kutztown. She specifically loved a pink teddy bear. And in many, many pictures, she had the teddy bear with her. I can only imagine the sequence of events that led to their deaths. To Dr. Catherine Maloney, joining us from Erie County Medical Examiner and nickelcityforensics.com. Dr. Catherine, what would a person go through upon hanging? What does a person experience as the oxygen leaves their body? Well, with a hanging, it would, depending on how tight the ligature was,

in this case it probably wouldn't be very tight because it was, you know, the wire covered in vinyl. So I would suspect that there would be several, perhaps at least a minute of consciousness where the person was experiencing pain before they lost consciousness. And then at that point they would be in a coma. I'm just wondering also if she gave them drugs, Alexis Tereschuk, in order to get them to cooperate. They were saying when they took them to the hospital, when they found them hanging,

they took them to the hospital and they really couldn't tell exactly what the cause of death was. If you were being hanged against your will, even little children, you're going to claw your neck. You're going to try to get away. But it didn't seem like there were any real marks of anything on these children. So that looks like they're thinking that that's what the mom had done. In answer to those toxicology questions, toxicology reports just announced show the children did not have drugs in their systems. I do not know how they were cajoled into getting up on those chairs, but I have big questions as to whether an eight-year-old boy could throw a lead for a 250-pound dog up over a railing in the ceiling of the basement and then arrange a double suicide.

Very, very difficult to believe. You know, to you, Cloyd Steiger, we know it was a metal lead covered in plastic. I wonder if her fingerprints, the mom's fingerprints are on it. Well, it could be, although it's much fingerprints, the mom's fingerprints are on it. Well, it could be, although it's much more likely that her DNA will be on it. But, of course, the problem is she picked it up at a store, so there's a legitimate reason her fingerprints and or DNA could be on that leash. So it doesn't really be much evidentiary in that case. I mean, the forensics are incredible. On the Google account, we find September 17,

a search by mommy, carbon monoxide in a car, how long to die. September 20, almost got away with it, best episodes. September 22, hanging yourself. Facebook records indicate photos and conversations regarding sex messages about the dog sex acts on mommy. We know also the children were removed from Snyder's care in 2014 and returned. Thanks, DFACS. Added again in 2015, DFACS Children's Services had been involved with the Snyder family all the way up through November 2015. You know, another issue is motive. To Dr. Karen Stark, psychologist joining us, you can find her at karenstark.com. I'm just now learning that the mom told a friend that she had, quote, had enough.

And according to court documents, she told a friend in early September, she, quote, does not care anymore about her kids. Yeah, I read that, Nancy. She was very supposedly depressed and had had enough of her kids. And so instead of allowing somebody to come in and give a proper home to these kids or get some help in figuring out what was going on there, eliminate them. And that's one more indication that this is a very sick, disturbed, psychopathic woman. If this is not a case for the death penalty, I do not know what is. We wait as justice unfolds.

Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.