Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 9-year-old sobs in court after charged with 5 murders

Episode Date: October 23, 2019

A 9 year-old boy is charged in the arson death of 5 of his family members. The debate begins over whether charging him as an adult is the way to proceed. Joining Nancy Grace today: Jason Oshins, NY Criminal defense attorney; John Cardillo,  Former NYPD; Dr Bethany Marshall, Psychoanalyst; and Dave Mack, Crime Online investigative reporter. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Today on Prime Stories, we head to Goodfield, Illinois. Around the corner of the house is pretty much fully engulfed. Joining Nancy Grace, New York criminal defense attorney Jason Oceans. John Cardillo, formerly of the NYPD. Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, Dr. Michelle Dupree, medical examiner and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, and Dave Mack, crime online investigative reporter.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Around the corner of the house was pretty much fully engulfed. I did run down by the windows to see if I could see anything, but once I got down there, it was just the heat was overwhelming. I just backed up. There was nothing to do at that point. The fire department showed up seconds after I got here and our fire department here is, you know, that these guys are awesome about their response time for the volunteer department. They're on the spot within six minutes. This has never happened. The 15 years I've been out here and something like this, you know, the community is out here.

If there would have been something they could do to help, they would have been helping. I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, a lot of people that was here felt helpless, that knowing what was going on and that they couldn't do anything. Incredible. A fire claims the home. A fire claims not only a home, but lives. Three toddlers, two adults, all dead in a fire. The home near Peoria, Illinois, consumed with flames, killing Ariel Wall, age one, Damon Wall, and Rose Allwood, 34, and Catherine Murray, 69.

What happened? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. Straight out to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Dave, a fire this severe, totally destroying the home and claiming so many lives? What happened? Nancy, they were all asleep. It was just after 11 o'clock and you've got a family with several young children.

The manager of this neighborhood, Sean Johnson, actually said that as he rounded the corner, it was already fully engulfed. Flames were coming out from the middle of the home as well as both ends. It was completely on fire within a matter of minutes. Firefighters arrived six minutes from the time they got the call, and it was already over. I'm just trying to imagine the home going up in flames in the middle of the night. And, you know, to Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, the psychoanalyst in Beverly Hills, Dr. Bethany, there's something so terrifying about fire. If you ask people, that will be one of their main fears is fire.

I think, yes, fire is such a frightening idea for most people because it's an idea of a very painful, slow death. And that's why fire is such an evocative term in our modern day lexicon. And not only fire, but fire in a home in the middle of the night when people are sleeping. I think what most people don't realize, though, is that in a fire, you generally die of smoke inhalation, not being burned alive. But yes, burned alive at the stake, burning up with anger. Our world's on fire. I mean, the idea of fire is definitely a scary concept. This blazing inferno near the small village of Goodfield kills one-year-old Ariel Wall,

her brother Damien Wall, cousin Rose Allwood, both aged two. Ariel and Damien's dad, 34-year-old Jason Wall, and their great-grandma, Catherine Murray, also in the home. I'm looking at it, and it looks like it has eaten up the entire home. Now, oh, this hurts. I'm looking at the photos of the children. I'm looking at little Damien and his one-year-old sister Ariel. Just beautiful. The dad, an Army vet, U.S. Army vet, Jason Wall, just 34, who died of smoke inhalation.

Then there's the niece, Rose Allwood, age 2. Here she is with a little princess hat on. She was just staying with the family that night. She also died. Then the great-grandma, Catherine Murray, also died. All five dying of smoke inhalation inside the family home at the Timberline community. You had Jason Wall's fiancee, Katrina Wall, and her son, Kyle Allwood, who managed to escape the fire. Everyone else perishes. John Cardillo with me, former NYPD. When you have a fire like this, you can burn to death or you can die of smoke inhalation. Explain how these people died of smoke inhalation, but their bodies were not actually burned. Oh, that's actually the most common cause, Nancy. You know, we would respond alongside the fire department and it would shock

people if it never responded to one of these scenes, just how quickly a premise, a home, a building, an office could be engulfed in flames, especially if it was an older structure that wasn't up to the current fire codes. Often they don't make you retroactively upgrade. And this fire department, exceptional response time, right? Six minutes from the call, the alarm going out to them responding and turning those hoses on. But that's all you really need. Maybe, you know, the alarm going out, to them responding and turning those hoses on. But that's all you really need. Maybe the fire investigators will go out there and survey the property, but it certainly could have been maybe they were cooking with propane.

There was a propane tank attached to the house that would lend to it. That would cause a secondary explosion. There could have been older gas lines with natural gas coming in. One of those could have split from the heat. Now you've essentially got a flamethrower adding to the chaos. So these fires, now that smoke is going to billow up, and it's going to billow into these rooms away from the point of fire very, very quickly. This is a thick, black, acrid smoke.

That's going to overcome you in seconds, in seconds, especially if you're sleeping. If you're awake, remember we were taught in school as kids, stop, drop, and roll, get a wet cloth on your face. But if you're asleep, this smoke is going to overcome you more often than not before you can react. The number one cause of death related to fire is smoke inhalation. That occurs when you breathe in the products of combustion during a fire. The rapid breakdown of substances like wood, metal, everything used to build a home. Smoke is a mixture of those heated particles and gas. Gas, think of carbon monoxide. Smoke inhalation is simply asphyxiation. You die from lack of oxygen. You also have a chemical irritation when you breathe all that in.

Long story short, by simply breathing, you die. As a matter of fact, it takes less than three minutes to die of smoke inhalation. And it's basically asphyxiation because your body is starved of oxygen. Dave Mack, was the entire home destroyed? Were the bodies intact? What do you know? Yes, ma'am. The entire home was destroyed. And you could see from the pictures that the main focus of this, well, from the pictures that the main focus of this fire, well, from the pictures, it looked like the

very center of this home. The living room area was totally obliterated. On both ends of the home, you could see that there had been fire coming out of both ends. And we do know that each one of the victims here died from smoke inhalation. And the family had been so excited to move into this new community. Listen to WMBD reporter Rosario Dominguez. I was at the scene this morning and talked to neighbors who witnessed the fire and unfortunately two adults and three children lost their lives and only two were able to escape. Sunday, this is the aftermath after a deadly fire

at the Timberline Trailer Park in Goodfield. THE FIRE. THE FIRE WAS SO BIG THAT IT WAS AROUND THE END OF THE TEMPERATURE THAT NOBODY WAS ABLE TO ESCAPE. SUNDAY. THIS IS THE AFTERMATH AFTER A DEADLY FIRE AT THE TIMBERLINE TRAILER PARK IN GOODFIELD. KATRINA ALLWOOD AND JASON WALL LIVED THERE WITH THEIR THREE KIDS, DAMIAN, ARIEL AND KYLE

AGES 2, 1 AND 8. THEIR NIECE ROSE ALLWOOD AND GRANDMA KATHERINE MURRAY WERE ALSO IN THE HOME AT THE TIME OF THE BLACE. BUT ONLY KATRINA AND HER SON KYLE WERE ABLE TO GET OUT. but only Katrina and her son Kyle were able to get out. It was surreal. It was just a fireball when we got over here. Flames were shooting out from the center of the home and from this end. I've been hearing it over in my head all night long, just children crying and moms crying for their babies.

It's horrible. Katrina and Jason had moved to the community to be near her sister and parents about a year and a half ago, according to neighbors. THEIR HOME. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR

FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR

FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. THEIR HOME IS A HOME FOR THEIR FAMILY. around 15 years, something like that, and never had anything like this. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

The community is already looking for ways to be there for Katrina and her son. THE FIRE IS ALREADY LOOKING FOR WAYS TO BE THERE FOR KATRINA AND HER SON. QUITE A FEW PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT TRYING TO FIND OUT WHAT THE CLOTHES SIZE FOR THE BOY AND KATRINA IS. THEY'RE ALREADY TALKING ABOUT GETTING A COLLECTION OF CLOTHES. THIS FIRE ALSO GOT THOSE AROUND TALKING ABOUT WAYS TO PREVENT THIS FROM HAPPENING AGAIN. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE

THERE'S WORKING SMOKE ALARMS IN EVERY HOME. WE'RE GOING TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE HAVE AN ESCAPE PLAN. AND I ALSO TALKED TO THE COMMUNITY OF THE FIRE DEPARTMENT AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO MAKE SURE THAT THEY

HAVE A PLAN TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE.

AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO GET THEM OUT OF THE FIRE. AND THEY SAID THEY WANT TO those around talking about ways to prevent this from happening again. We're going to make sure there's working smoke alarms in every home. We're going to make sure that families have an escape plan. And I also talked to the Eureka Goodfield Fire Chief, and he says that 23 firefighters from four different departments were at the scene last night. They were able to get the fire under control in 15 minutes and clear the scene approximately at 5 a.m. Woodford County authorities say the cost of the fire is still under investigation.

You were hearing our friend at WMBD reporter Rosario Dominguez as the neighbors joined together and tried to help the two survivors, the fiance and her little boy. But still, the cause of the fire had not been determined. To Jason Oceans joining me, a veteran criminal defense attorney out of New York in the tri-state area. Jason Oceans, the thing about a fire, it's a tricky case to prove an arson because first of all, unlike with a bank robbery

or a shooting or a murder, you know a crime has happened. With an arson, you first have to prove there was a crime. Then you have to figure out who did it, which is very difficult to do because all the evidence has been burned. You're correct, Nancy. I mean, fire investigators are, you know, very focused in their craft and they're specialists. You know, was there an accelerant involved, you know, source of fire? And as our

NYPD detective indicated, the, you know, an accelerant, you know, a secondary source and ruling that out. And, you know, it's, it's painstaking. And it's, it's, it's certainly, as you stated, very difficult in an arson case. First proving how and whether it was, and then finding out who done it. An arson investigation is painstaking. I've been through many of them and prosecuted arsons. Prosecuting in inner city Atlanta that had become a real niche that I worked on because arson cases can be very, very hard to prove. But after investigation, this is what happened. This very spot that I'm standing in used to be home to a five person family.

But during one night in early April, a spark changed everything. THE FIRE WAS SET INTO A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION. THE FIRST THING THAT HAPPENED IN THE EARLY APRIL, A SPARK CHANGED EVERYTHING. IT WASN'T LONG BEFORE THE AUTHORITIES DETERMINED THAT THIS FIRE WAS SET INTENTIONALLY, RULING THIS CASE AS A HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION. ONE-YEAR-OLD ARIEL, TWO-YEAR- OLD DAMIAN AND TWO-YEAR-OLD

ROSE KILLED WHEN THIS MOBILE HOME CAUGHT FIRE. ALSO LOST IN THE BLAZE, 34- YEAR-OLD JASON WALL AND 69- YEAR-OLD KATHERINE MURRAY. NOW, A YOUNG CHILD FACES CHARGES. HE'S ONLY NINE YEARS OLD.

I'M PRETTY SURE A CHILD WOULD NOT SET OUT TO INTENTIONALLY HARM SOMEONE. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY IMPORTANT THING TO DO. I THINK IT'S A VERY and 69-year-old Catherine Murray. Now, a young child faces charges. He's only nine years old, but I'm pretty sure a child would not set out to intentionally harm someone. The Woodford County State's attorney says the child faces five counts of murder, two counts of arson, and one count of aggravated arson, but some say the charges are a bit harsh. I think he was just playing. He didn't

realize the implications or the consequences and some bad tragedy came out of it. That was our friend at WMBD. That was Manasha Warkargi, a nine-year-old little boy charged in a fire that kills three tots and two adults. To determine the cause of the blaze will go a long way to determine the mindset of this little boy if, in fact, he did it. But it's staggering to me, Dr. Bethany Marshall, that a nine-year-old is charged with five homicides? Well, I cannot speak to the charges, but I can speak to the psychology of a child who would set a fire. You know, there are very careful, specific delineations in my field in terms of child

fire plays, which is what we call it, and why a child might set a fire. And the most mild would just be that they're curious, it's accidental, they're playing in their bedroom, sometimes there's a cry for help. It could be further along the spectrum that they're delinquents, but usually if it's a juvenile delinquent, it's between the ages of 11 and 15. As you go up the scale, you can have psychotic, paranoid, schizophrenic children who are severely disturbed, or you can have children who are what we call cognitively impaired. And what that means is that they do not understand the consequences of fire starting. Maybe they have intellectual disabilities or they do not have cause and effect thinking.

But I think instead of just rushing to judgment and charging the child, I'm hoping that they have a psychologist there evaluating this child to try to delineate what the motivation was. There's a famous case in my field where a four-year-old sets a fire in his bedroom, closes the door, goes out, sits down at the dinner table to eat with the family, and all of a sudden the bedroom goes up in smoke. Fortunately, the fire department comes in time. The blaze is, you know, snuffed out, $100,000 worth of damages. And when questioned about why he set the fire, he said, well, I thought if I closed the door, it would go away. Now that's a four-year-old, but that's an example of the importance of evaluating why the child set the fire. You know, a lot is

going to depend on how the fire was started. I'm going to make a confession since I know the statute of limitations has long been passed. Before I was three, I was at my grandmother's mama that Lucy's named after and my grandfather Ovid's home. And my granddad had come home for lunch. He drove a school bus and my grandmother was getting lunch together and I was playing in the den and I found matches. And I just wanted to see if I could strike a match. And I did. And of course, it fell on the sofa. And it burned a mark in the fabric. Long story short, my grandmother ran in. I don't really remember exactly what happened, but I didn't even get in any trouble. I don't think I even got fussed at or spanked. I think they just took matches away and told me to leave them alone. But I certainly was not intending to burn the house down or burn anything down. I was just trying to strike a match. My point is, in

this case, John Cardillo, former NYPD, it'll be a very different scenario if he was just trying to light a match or did he pour gasoline in the bedroom of the victims and then put a match to it? I mean, it depends on whether it's obvious this nine-year-old little boy actually tried to start a fire. Well, that's the crux of the case right there. Was it a kid accidentally playing with matches? Look, I did it as a kid. I probably was 12 years old, and we had some fireworks in a box in the garage, and I was messing around with a blowtorch trying to fuse two pieces of metal okay wait wait wait wait

wait wait stop stop messing around with a blowtorch it was a lot less nefarious than it sounds i had like two pieces of metal it sounds really bad john a blowtorch what was a blowtorch doing in your garage i was trying to put two pieces of metal together we were trying to make a ramp to jump our bicycles wait how old were you i was probably like 12 right i mean and we all survived back then acting this way didn't we blowtorch plus fireworks plus garage equals needless to say good crazy bill while the sparks, hit the fireworks. They were in a cardboard box, and it was, you know, a few weeks after the 4th of July or before.

But let me tell you that. Hold on. I'm trying to write this down as fast as I can for my next book. It's called Cardillo Did It. Well, anyway, but they caught up. You know, those fireworks caught pretty quickly, and my friends and I were able to kind of kick the box outside. I guess so.

Get it? Fire works? Right. Luckily, we were able to kick the box outside and they sort of went off harmlessly. But, you know, what I'm saying is that that's an accident. But the arson investigation methods these days are. Well, I don't know. When you pick up a blowtorch and turn it on, I guess that's up to the jury to decide okay can i get back to

this case cardillo yeah this sound bite's gonna follow me for the rest of my life nancy this is awesome yes it will because i'm gonna play it over and over so well here's what i'm saying arson investigation methods are very sophisticated in fact i've got a friend who's an arson investigator in new mexico who uses a canine and that dog is one of the few around the country that's trained to detect accelerant. So with the technology they have available to them today, the canine component that they can bring in, the investigators can tell pretty quickly if an area of that structure was saturated with some kind of accelerant. In this particular case, they suspect gasolines. They're going to look at the burn marks are going to be darker and deeper there's going to be a scorch trail things of that nature so they'll be able to determine

crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nine-year-old child is accused of causing a mobile home fire, killing three children and two adults. That fire happened in central Illinois back in April. Now the nine-year-old is facing five counts of first-degree murder. A neighbor spoke with WICD. I HAVE COMPASSION FOR HIM BECAUSE IN MY OWN HEART, I REALLY CAN'T SEE THAT A NINE-YEAR-OLD WOULD INTENTIONALLY WANT TO HARM SOMEBODY. THE WOODFORD COUNTY STATE'S ATTORNEY DID NOT GIVE ANY MORE DETAILS ABOUT THE SUSPECT, INCLUDING POSSIBLE RELATIONSHIP TO THE VICTIMS. IF CONVICTED, THE CHILD COULD BE PLACED ON including possible relationship to the victims. If convicted, the child could be placed on probation for at least five years,

but not beyond the age of 21. Therapy and counseling would be likely. Oh, my stars. A family home is consumed with flames. Then criminal charges brought against a nine-year-old little boy now named as Kyle. I'm looking at a photo of the, it's hard to say, defendant in this case, Kyle Allwood. He's just a nine-year-old little boy. A lot is going to depend on how the fire was started. Was it an accident or was it intentional? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Welcome back.

With me, Jason Oceans, John Cardillo, Dr. Bethany Marshall, and Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Jason Oceans, what do you do when you've got a nine-year-old little boy charged with five counts of murder? I think it's beyond the pale that the state's prosecutor would bring charges as an adult. Just historically, Nancy, Illinois was the first state to have a juvenile court over 120 years ago. It just doesn't make sense to – even if it was and there was an accelerant involved, it just doesn't make sense. The cognitive ability of a nine-year-old to comprehend almost anything in a sophisticated, intentional mens rea act, it just shocks me. As a father, as an attorney, it makes no sense. You may scare a lot of people throwing around Latin terms like mens rea,

which means the intent to do the act, the malice to do the act. But in this case, for instance, Jason Eshens, there are a lot of legal theories to support a murder charge. For instance, if I hold a gun up to your head and pull the trigger and kill you, and then I say, oh, my stars, I just meant to scare him. Well, the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act. That's like me, as I would tell juries, holding up a piece of fine china and throwing it to a cement floor and going, oh, my stars, I did not mean to break that. Well, why did you throw it to the floor? I.e., why did you pour accelerant and then put a match to it? So you don't have to say, oh, I did not mean for them to

die of smoke inhalation. The point is, if you did the act, if you threw down the plate, if you pulled the trigger, if you started the fire, the law presumes you intend the natural consequence of your act, Jason. No doubt, Nancy, but the applicability of the law was to and designed as adults. And we dropped from just having an adult court, Illinois being the first state for a juvenile court, and we set up different standards. We set up different time periods of incarceration. It was completely and totally treated differently because of the age. And so as violence has increased, the ability to have guns and the accessibility, not uncommon for a 14- or a 15-year-old to be charged with murder. The statistics prove that out. This is a nine-year-old, a nine-year-old. I don't know of any case where there's been a murder charge as an adult for entreating a nine-year-old as an adult. I mean, think about that. A nine-year-old is an adult? In what way? Only if something bad or heinous happens, even if there was an intent,

a nine-year-old was angry, played with matches to create a fire, but this consequence, the understanding, the cognitive knowledge to understand the consequences. It's like, as Dr. Marshall said, it's like as a four-year-old closing the door and thinking it would go away or double the age of the four-year-old and we've got a nine-year-old. Not an 18-year-old, but a nine-year-old. I'm not defending the actions. Clearly, the child might need help. It might be determined that way based on, you know, the examination.

But to charge as an adult, I'd never do it. I'm trying to wrestle with the fact that a nine-year-old little boy has been charged with five counts of murder, two counts of arson, one count of aggravated arson. Take a listen to our friends at WMBD. I believe he needs help and love. State's attorney Greg Minger said if convicted, the boy could be placed on probation for at least five years, adding incarceration is off the table. He would have to go to therapy and counseling and a psychological evaluation would be likely. Still, those that know him feel

he deserves a second chance. Some children, even some adults today, had things happen when they were younger. They grew out of it, somebody nurtured them, and they have a very prosperous, productive adulthood now. So I believe they deserve a chance. And she went on to say, though this was a tragic incident, it opened the community's eye on the importance of guiding the young ones in the neighborhood. This is the youngest child to be accused in a mass killing since 2006. According to the state's attorney's office, if convicted, the child could be put on a mass killing since 2006. According to the

state's attorney's office, if convicted, the child could be put on probation for at least five years, but not beyond the age of 21. Prison time is not an option here, and neighbors in the area are reacting to these latest charges. He's gonna need some way to cope with that. You know what? I don't know if he understands what he's really done. He didn't realize the implications or the consequences and a bad tragedy came out of it. I believe he needs help and love. You are hearing neighbors reacting to the news that this little boy is charged with five counts of murder,

but apparently there will be no prison time. What about this to Jason Ocean's criminal defense lawyer? I believe one of the reasons that he is charged as an adult is so he will be under state supervision. He could be under state supervision for years and years and years on five counts of murder one and he needs to be he doesn't need to go into a a um home situation with no no one watching over him and no supervisory um authority making him go to counseling making sure that he is staying out of trouble i mean hold, hold on. To Dave Mack, what do we know about any previous instances with this child? Nancy, what we know is that there have been investigations from the family services since almost his birth. 13 different times social services has interviewed

this family and been involved in different things with this specific child 13 times. Now, are you saying defects or police defects? 13 times defects has been called in relation to this child. What does that mean to you, Dr. Bethany Marshall? Well, to me, it means that he needs a thorough psychological assessment. Let me just say, Nancy, according to one study, child fireplay, as we call it, causes $2 billion in damages every year. And half of all child fireplay happens in the bedroom, just so your listeners who are parents would know that that's the place you really want to supervise. But I would want to know, is this child, does he have early onset bipolar disorder, attention deficit with hyperactivity? Is he psychotic? Is there something psychiatrically in all of these aberrant behaviors? That'd be the

first thing I would assess. Secondarily, what is going on in the home? Is he adequately supervised? Is there any type of abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse? Not that any reports of that have come out, but is it what we call endogenous, something in the child, or exogenous, something going on in the home? And then third, I agree with you, Nancy. If this little boy goes into a home, what's going to happen? He's going to lose his tie to his mother. And who does he need most in the world if he's struggling? His mother. Who's going to have the greatest therapeutic influence on him? His mother. Before we had fancy schmancy therapists,

we looked to our mothers. Our mothers are the ones who heal and cure us. And he needs his mother most of all at this point, not some criminal justice system. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For the first time, we're hearing from the family of a nine-year-old boy accused of arson and charged just this week with five counts of first-degree murder. Investigators say he intentionally set fire to his family home in downstate Eureka last April, but his mother says he's not the monster people think he is. People make mistakes and that's what this is. Yes, it was a horrible tragedy, but it's still not something to throw his life away over. Katie Allwood is talking

about her son Kyle. The fire killed Allwood's two other children, her grandmother, her fiance, and her two-year-old niece Rose. They were sleeping when the flames swept through the only swept through only all would escape. She forgives Kyle but her sister Rose's mother says no way. I think he should go somewhere until he's legal age to go to juvie and I think he should be to prison because at the end of the day whether he meant to or not he knew what fire did. The family says Kyle had shown an interest in lighters and fire before. The local prosecutor is defending the decision to file murder charges, but says the nine-year-old is likely to face only probation. Authorities said previously they thought the fire was intentionally set.

It was no accident when a fire burst out consuming the family's home and killing five. The fire was set intentionally and that makes the deaths homicide. There are also reports that the nine-year-old boy, Kyle, was actually eight, eight years old when the incident occurred. Now charged with five counts of murder, one. We also know that Kyle's mother set up a GoFundMe page to save her van, which is all she had left from the fire. Murder charges against a child this young are extremely rare. If you speak to any legal expert, you'll learn that murder charges against a nine-year-old are uncommon because we don't understand the ability to reason at that age. But murder charges against this child happen, and it's happened in the past. Many people believe the boy should be charged as an adult. What would be the benefit of that,

Jason Oceans? No benefit, Nancy. There's no benefit whatsoever. What about supervising him for years to come? He clearly needs it. Yeah, it's going to – before there's the rush to judgment to make an 8-year-old an adult, that's the stop right there. Think about that. An 8-year-old is an adult because a bad act occurred? Would it be different if it was a girl versus a boy? I can't even get into the – I don't know the benefit. I think there's no benefit. I don't know who the prosecutor is playing to.

As a prosecutor, I could never imagine doing that, carrying around a felony the rest of your life. What, a murder felony? You might as well just write off the life. There's got to be more a sense of rehabilitation, and sure, supervision would be appropriate. Clearly, there's a larger problem there to an eight-year-old now a nine-year-old forever. That's what you're setting up, a death sentence. You cannot succeed in life off of a felony murder charge. You need help, supervision. As Dr. Marshall suggested, the mother here speaking understands it's a tragedy and wants to, you know, get something good out of it as

opposed to now writing off a nine-year-old. It's unconscionable to me. We know that this boy has had 13 previous incidents with defects. Why were they called in? We don't know because that is kept under seal. But we do know that the agency always either referred the little boy to community services or determined the allegations were quote unfounded now what does that mean all we know is that community action and state services have not helped so far now there are five dead bodies defects took custody of kyle and that occurred shortly after the fire. He was put in a foster home.

I'm not so sure a foster home is wrong, Dr. Bethany Marshall. 13 calls from Department of Family and Children Welfare and the little boy is only eight. What is happening in the home that defects has been out there? Well, Nancy, it's true because if they have been called out so many times, it would call into question, is there something toxic or dysfunctional happening in that home where either there's not enough supervision, so the child is left on his own, that the which is one of the reasons children do engage in fire play, or are the parents sort of instigating the child to feel agitated? Now, according to the mother, the child has bipolar, attention deficit with hyperactivity, and schizophrenia. So to me, that's also a perfect storm for fire setting. And I'll tell you why. Attention deficit would cause impulsivity, where you just act without thinking. Bipolar causes

enormous amounts of energy. And schizophrenia causes poor reality testing and fragmentation, meaning anxiety and the feeling that one is falling apart. So agitation and fragmentation often is compensated for by fire setting in children, typically with boys. And little boys are already impulsive, but if you pair that impulsivity with enormous amounts of energy, which is what you have with mania. This to me is a perfect storm for fire setting. And also if defects came so many times, did the neighbors call? Did the mother call? Family to control, but they wanted to keep him in the home and they wanted to take care of him. You know, when children act out, it's not always bad parenting.

Sometimes children are born with psychiatric syndromes and there are parents who are desperate to get help for their children, but they just don't know what to do. Regardless of the charges, it seems that neuroscience, brain development, all points to the fact that children this age, nine years old, are not culpable for what they do. That's why until you're an adult, 18, you can't enter into a contract. You can't buy a car on your own. You can't get liquor. You can't get cigarettes. You're not supposed to. You can't get married. You can't enter into a sex relationship under the law because you are a child and you may do those things without understanding the the result the consequences and here is a perfect example Jason Oceans apparently a makeshift memorial was put up and the little boy would take food out to it hoping that the family would eat it and enjoy it.

He, you know, like when someone's ill in our church community or a relative, I'll make dinner and take it over there for them to try to help them in some way. He doesn't even understand. They're dead. Just based on the, you know the uh psych profile that we've just listened to uh of course he doesn't uh that's why i find it shocking to the conscience with this information out there that the state's prosecutor seems determined to have an adult murder charge okay wait a minute jason you're ignoring the facts the way you keep ranting

in that jurisdiction a child cannot be put into a state facility i understand that under 13 so he's not going to jail he's not going to be out the yard jason even more of the reason not to charge as an adult i disagree i'll tell you why I think he should be charged as an adult. I'll tell you. What's the reason to charge if he's not going into jail, into a facility anyway? What's the purpose? Are you through with your question? You're really dragging it out. The reason he should be charged as an adult is because with juvenile sentences, they can only last, say, five years. What I want is not for him to go to jail, but apparently living at home ain't working. The defects has already been called 13 times in eight years. He needs state supervision.

He needs state-enforced therapy. He needs state-enforced doctors seeing him. Bethany Marshall, whatever mommy's doing, it's not working. Whatever she's doing is not working and we don't have to blame her or the child. The blame, I think we could. So no, I'm not. Yeah. I'm not saying it's her fault. I'm saying whatever is happening is not working. I'm not saying that she's beating the child or hurting the child. I'm saying whatever they're doing did not work. And now there's five dead bodies, three of them toddlers. The reason I said that is that neighbors, family members, the system is often afraid to report and to remove the child from the home because they confuse it with blaming the parent or the child.

And I think it's important for the listeners to know that we're not casting blame. We're just saying, as you just so eloquently put it, that it's not working. And if it's not working to such disastrous effect, there are systems in place. There are, there's one in Orch County for child fire setters where there are very carefully delineated protocols for helping children who have impulsivity and acting out in this specific area. And what's unfortunate to me is when he's removed into a home, then he's not going to have that one-on-one tie to the mother. And yet, sometimes I see in clinical practice, Nancy, being with a foster parent or some third-degree relative is more helpful than being with the primary parent if there's such severe failures in the parent's ability to contain the child's behavior. Children playing with fire set more than 20,000 fires every year. That's an average of almost 400 fires each week. Fires started by children just playing

cause an average of 150 deaths and nearly 1,000 injuries every year. This child, God help him, needs help and supervision for a very long time. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart podcast