Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - 9-year-old Sophie screams when she has to go back to Mommy's boyfriend. WHY?

Episode Date: October 6, 2020

Millions have watched a viral video of 9-year-old Sophie screaming, pleading to not return to her mother's home. She can be heard in the video telling her Grandmother that her mother's boyfriend touches her. Kelly Long says Sophie's actions are just encouragement from her father. The two are locked in a custody battle over their three children. Kelly Long says there is no basis for molestation claims. Hear what her attorney tells us after a settlement is reached.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jamie Graham - attorney for Michael Long Michael Long - father of Sophie David Routzon - attorney for Kelly Long Caryn Stark NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com  Sheryl McCollum - Forensics Expert & Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Founder Levi Page - Investigative reporter Crime Online  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. About 50% of marriages in America end in divorce. That's a given. You got a 50-50 shot, but what about the children caught in the crossfire? We are talking now about Stand With Sophie. Can you imagine sending your little girl back after a weekend visit into a home where she claims mommy's boyfriend is molesting her.

And it's all court-sanctioned. First of all, take a listen to Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com. Kelly and Michael Long are in a bitter custody battle. It heated up when a video of their 9-year-old daughter Sophie went viral. During a custody swap, Sophie refuses to get out of her father's SUV. In the nearly 20-minute video, Sophie can be seen and heard screaming at her mother and grandmother, begging to stay with her dad. At one point, she can be heard telling her grandmother that her mother's fiance, Mr. Jake, touches her and her mother watches. She repeatedly asks, why don't you believe me? Guys, before we go one step further,

I want you to hear it for yourself. Take a listen to this recording. Sophie, this little girl screaming, refusing to get out of the car and go with her mother listen No! Sophie? No! Honey, what happened to you? Nothing! What's happened to you? No! No! No!

Sophie? No! That is not how you speak to your grandparent. Would you speak to your father or your grandfather that way? Stop! Here, let's put this seat up. No! It's inconvenient that the seat's down and we can't get the seat belt. I don't want her hands in there, sweetie.

Stop! Stop it! Sophie, you know, sometimes we have to do things we don't want to, but when judges and policemen say this is what we have to do, we have to do it. I'm not going! Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, why they're saying to her, asking her, don't you know this isn't how you talk to your grandmother, instead of saying, honey, what is wrong? What's wrong? I don't get that.

Nancy, clearly this little girl needs help. She sounds petrified. I don't get that. Nancy, clearly this little girl needs help. She sounds petrified. I mean, she's crying. She's screaming. She's trying to tell them in every way she doesn't want to go and why she doesn't want to go. Guys, let me introduce our panel to break it down and put it back together again and try to get to the truth of what is happening to nine-year-old Sophie. Right here under our noses, this is going on in Texas.

Who's not to say it's happening all over the country? Enforced visits, enforced custody, while a child is allegedly being molested? With me, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Levi Page. As you've already heard, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute and crime scene expert. We're now psychologists. Joining me out of New York, Karen Stark at KarenStark.com. Special guests joining me now, the attorney for Sophie's dad, Michael Long, Jamie Graham, who is fighting tooth and nail. And special guest, Sophie's dad, who has never given up trying to get his daughter back, Michael Long. Michael Long, you were there during the recording of Sophie, your nine-year-old daughter,

screaming not to get out of your car. Were you driving? Yeah, I was. I was driving the car. I'd gone with my father that day to do the exchange in Lacey Lakeview, Texas. So you had Sophie's nine, correct? Yes, she is. And you have two other sons.

Is that right? I do. I actually have three other sons, but two other with my ex. Okay, so are they Sophie's bio brothers? Yes, they are. Okay, then you've got one other that's a stepbrother. Yeah, between my wife currently. Okay, got you.

Okay, with me, guys, Sophie's dad, Michael Long. The screaming. Yeah. Sophie's just a bone-chilling scream from this child, your daughter. Now, you brought your father along with you. That was smart. Why did you do that? At that point in what was going on, I had been advised to have witnesses available

and also to document these exchanges because there had been prior exchanges where Sophie didn't want to go, and I was being blamed for holding her back when in reality Sophie was standing up and saying that she just simply couldn't go. You know, that is not unusual, Cheryl McCollum. You know, I've learned the hard way by watching my colleagues in the DA's office take a statement or talk to someone. I've done it myself. Luckily, it didn't backfire on me. But then as soon as you leave the room, they go, oh, yeah, I didn't say that. That didn't happen. You really have to have somebody with you. How many times, Cheryl, have you seen a case blow up because nobody was there when the statement was taken? Nobody was

there when the incident occurred. So it's your word against their word. That's not uncommon. Absolutely. Listen, if there's not a witness, it didn't happen. I mean, that's just he said, she said. It's going to go nowhere. But in this case, again, what stands out for me is a nine-year-old little girl is telling her grandmother, Mr. Jake is touching me and Mom is watching. She's very clear. She's very specific, Nancy. And she gets even more specific in letters to her dad. You know, when it all hit home with me, Cheryl McCollum, you may remember this case.

I prosecuted a guy. He was super wealthy. He owned all the horse-drawn carriage and limo trade in the city of Atlanta. And I was a young prosecutor and trying the case all on my own. He had a fleet of lawyers, a fleet. And I dug up seven similar transactions where he had been, he had 35 natural children by many different women. He had been beating his daughters and molesting them for years and years and years. And what I found out is very often you speak to the children and then they will change their minds.

They'll recant because they're scared, Cheryl. Of course, Nancy, this child has advocated for herself verbally and in writing. I would really be interested to see what her teachers may know or have heard or friends. That's a good point. Because she is so articulate. You know what? I lost my train of thought, Cheryl. But when I was talking about that case that I prosecuted, the mother of the current three victims, two little girls and a teen girl, was living with the defendant. And both of her little girls, ages three and five, were being full on raped.

And the mother knew it. That set me to thinking how many times mothers know and do nothing. They protect the boyfriend a lot of the time. But let me tell you one more thing. Nancy, you worked a major, major child molestation case where a guy got 63 years. And one thing I remember about

one of those victims, she was young, she was a little girl, but she kept articulating how the defendant smelled. Sophie does that too. You know what? That is very important.

I hear Michael Long. Jump in, Michael. Just to hop in real quick, I think you guys are making a really good point, but one of the things that I've heard as going through this process that we're having happen all over the country is that children are staying home

because of the COVID crisis. And as a result, they don't have the same access to their teachers to have those one-on-one conversations or adults present where they can disclose. I know that in the case that we're dealing with, this is one of the challenges that Sophie had, is that her friend network had been cut off by her mother, and she didn't have access to adults in her vicinity that she could talk to anymore. You know what, Michael? Nancy, can I just jump in real quick?

Here's what's going to be really important, Michael. Those teachers that she had access to, first grade, second grade, if they can articulate this is not the Sophie I know, it still shows a major change in her personality. She was actually a student the first three years in school. She was student of the year in her third grade. She's in fourth now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Let me reiterate before we say one more word that Sophie's mom says this is absolutely not true. Let me just put that out there. Guys, for those of you just joining us, you may have heard of Stand With Sophie. Hashtag Stand With Sophie.

A nine-year-old little girl whose dad says she screams bloody murder every time she has to go back to her mom's house. Mom lives with fiancé. She claims fiancé molesting her and does not want to go back. But you heard the mom telling her when the judge and the policeman tell you, you got to do it. You got to do it. I want you to take a listen to a recording of Sophie begging not to go back to mom. Listen. Where's her medication? Where? You know what? When I taught you off, we had a really good time. Remember that? No! Stop pushing me!

Stop pushing me! You're hurting me! I'm not hurting you. I have to undo your seat belt. We have to do this. I'm sorry. No, you don't! Yes, we actually do.

No, you don't! We do. No, you don't! Don't touch her hand. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this.

I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going to end this. I'm going. No you don't! Yes, we actually agree. No you don't! Yes we do. No you don't! No you don't! Don't touch her hand. I'm gonna, Sophie Elise, that is not appropriate. No! Please move. No!

No! No! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop! Stop!

Stop! Stop! No, don't hurt her. I am not. No! No! No, don't hear her. I am not. This is exactly what our attorneys... Sophie! Come here!

This is the security. Call the police. This only needs some service. No, no. Sophie, you have to come. We absolutely nothing to assist her. You asked us to stay in the car. Sophie, you have to come. You asked us to stay in the car. I can't tell you how everyone in the studio right now can't even look up

as you hear Sophie screaming at her mother and grandmother that she does not want to go to the home. To Karen Stark joining me, psychologist joining us today out of Manhattan. Karen, you know what? The mom says this isn't true. Daddy's making it all up to torture me. Dad is saying, oh hell yes, it is true. Whatever is true, the child is screaming not to go home to mommy. How can a student of the year be acting like this? I mean, I got to tell you, Karen, I've told you this before. Some of the best witnesses I've ever put on the stand, the ones I believe the most, were children. Well, because children are innocent.

They're so innocent. So when you hear something like this, Nancy, it really makes you question what is going on here. And one of the things that I noted was that the grandmother, it seems very perplexed. Like what happened? Where is my Sophie? The mother is being very strict, you know, like this is not appropriate. What does appropriate have to do with the fact that whatever is going on, she does not. She's insisting. I do not want to go back there. I want and she's very specific about what she's saying. And as Sharon McCullen keeps mentioning, Nancy, and this is significant,

she goes to the extreme of trying really hard to communicate to her dad. Here's what's happening. And she comes up with these letters and she's nine years old and has code words for things that are going wrong in this home. So something is wrong. You know what? I want to follow up on that right now. Guys, just so you know, the judge has put a gag order on the parties in this case. So there may be times where Sophie's dad, Michael, and their lawyer, Jamie Graham, out of Texas, may not be able to answer our questions. But we're going to ask them anyway. Michael Long, I know you can't comment on any other parties, such as your ex-wife. In this case, I understand that.

Can you tell me about the code words and who devised the code words that your daughter writes in her letters to you? Yeah, absolutely. So after communication, during the spring break handoff, it was when we really, really first noticed that there was a problem with her not wanting to go back. But we had sent her back with some paper and envelopes and stamps and just told her if she wants to mail a letter, she can. And the letter that ended up out there is the first letter that we got back. And she included these code words herself so that if we're on a FaceTime call and she's being monitored, she could say a word that would alert me to call the police to know that she's in trouble. What were the code words?

Well, the main word was Mockingjay. That was her big danger word. But she had, like, roses and pens and all sorts of different things for different levels of issues that could be going on. Did you say Mockingjay? Yeah, Mockingjay. Did she come up with that? Yeah, she'd watched The Hunger Games. And Mockingjay, just something about that character and standing up for herself stood out to her.

And that's what she chose to put at the bottom of the letter. To think about it, Cheryl, that a little girl nine years old. I mean, when I was nine years old, gosh, I was still riding my bike and looking for bugs and building forts out of pine straw, looking for fairies and trolls in the backyard. This little girl is screaming not to go home with mommy, claiming fiance is molesting her and that mommy knows it and now she's got to come up with code words according to dad well you know a lot of children are given a code word to make sure that the right person picks them up from school if mama can't so they do know code words what stands out for me is she specifically writes if she uses dandelion or daisy,

that means she is in danger. She uses the word danger. Now, first of all, this is a very smart child. This is a child that knows what is happening. She knows it's wrong. She's told every single adult in her life. Oh, that's hurting me. You're hurting me, Cheryl. She's told all the adults. Guys, whatever you think, who's telling the truth? The mom says this is all a lie. The dad says, oh, no, it's not a lie. You can't be confused about this. This child is in turmoil. This child is at the end of her rope. This little girl. Do any of you have a little girl or a little boy? I've got one of each. And I don't think I've ever heard them scream the way this child is screaming. Listen. Stop! You better stop right now! He's pulling my legs! Help me! Help me!

Stop! What are you doing? Let her walk! No, that's just not okay. Stop! Stop, Karen. Honey, you have to come. You have to come. He won't open the door.

What are you talking about? I got the door open. You're yanking your own door. No, the door. Because you have a door open already. Please open the door. Open the door. Yes, uh, 43-67. Help me! Help me!

Help me! Help me! Help me! Help me! Help me! Help me! This is insane! So wrong, Michael.

I didn't do anything. Kim, you're hurting her. This is what our attorney advised us to do. Yeah, but it's hurting her. No, it's not hurting her. It's just putting up the fist that you asked her anything. Kim you're hurting her. This is what our attorney advised us to do. Yeah but it's hurting her. No it's not hurting her. She's putting on the fit that you asked her to put on. I didn't ask her to put on a fit. I didn't ask you to put on a fit. You are hearing the mom stating this is what your this is what our lawyer told us to do. She the little girl is putting on the fit that you asked her to put on. The dad saying he did not ask her to put on a fit. Joining me, the attorney for dad, Michael Long, the dad of Sophie, stand for Sophie, Jamie Graham with us, trial lawyer out of Texas. Jamie, did they have a 50-50 split? What was the custody arrangement going into this?

Actually, the custody arrangement was a standard possession order in Texas. That's every other weekend, basically. Thursdays, you know, six days. You mean he only got his daughter every other weekend? Yes. So it's not a 50-50 split? No. The way it works in Texas, we'd arranged it because she'd moved so

far away so we ended up getting her for an extended period like an extended week in the month we'd had her for summers spring breaks and the holidays alternating years for christmas so that's the standard possession order can either be the first and third weekend of the month and fifth if it falls or the second and fourth and in our case uh it was decided because of the distance to take it easy on the kids and actually make it an extended period or one time a month when you say extended period what do you mean by that let me interject real quickly as far as the he had to give a 14-day notice with regard to getting a weekend out of the month after she moved to frisco te Texas. I didn't think under the law that one parent could take the child away from another

parent and like move out of the state or move far away. In Texas, we do have a public policy of continuing frequent contact with both biological parents. So we do have that. And geographical restrictions are pretty much the norm here. In this particular case, initially, there was not a geographical restriction at all. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Okay, guys, we're talking about a little girl who has created a huge, huge social media firestorm. You may have heard hashtag stand with Sophie, a nine-year-old little girl who refuses to go home to mommy, claiming fiance molests her and that mommy knows. Let me state, mommy swears it's not true that the daughter's been put up to this.

I'm still not understanding this. Just give me a yes, no, Jamie Graham, if that's possible. So Michael, Sophie's dad, only got Sophie every other weekend and then holidays, extended visit over summer. Okay. Is that right? That's right. COVID has caused a little bit of a disconnect with regard to the visitation schedule. So essentially, mom had 66 days before the outcry.

And then after that, Michael had a majority of the summer. So it's been a little bit. Well, the answer is he's got to give 14 days notice for his weekend over the next month. So he's got to get 14 days notice in order for him to get access. Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter, is the split that the dad gets Sophie before this every other weekend and mom has her every other weekend and during the week. That is a yes, no. I don't care if it's been disrupted about COVID. I'm not asking about the summer break. I'm asking you, what is the split? Nancy knows, no. What it was is I got an extended week in the month, except for obviously these holidays that are designated in these extended periods. That was agreed to because of the distance between us after she had moved to Dallas.

How often would you see Sophie during the school year prior to COVID? I would see her three days a week on a FaceTime call, Monday, Wednesdays, and Fridays for about 10 minutes each day. And that was it. We'd get three to five days a week. Okay, so I think I finally got the answer. Levi Page, please correct me if I'm wrong. The father, in this case, Michael Long, would see his nine-year-old daughter, Sophie, every other weekend, except for occasional three-day weekends. Is that correct, Levi? Please, can somebody say yes, no? That's correct, Nancy.

Okay, thank you. Thank you. Stop right there. I get it. My point that I've been trying so desperately to make is that Karen Stark, knowing what Sophie is telling him, he would have to send her back to the home for the majority of the time. I mean, under the split, he gets her every other weekend. And here his daughter's telling him she's being molested. I'm surprised he didn't go berserk. Yeah, I don't understand it myself, Nancy, because under these circumstances where she's letting him know she has code words and she's letting him know she's in trouble, I don't understand the court, actually. Is that all he's been allowed?

It doesn't make any sense. I don't even understand how the mother was allowed to leave to go that far away from him. None of this makes sense to me personally, especially when a child was in danger. None whatsoever. Guys, I agree with Karen Stark. It doesn't make sense with me. With me is Sophie's dad, Michael Long, and his lawyer, Jamie Graham, out of Texas. If you're just joining us, I want you to hear what happens when Sophie is told she's got to go back home with the mom and the moms. Did he live in? Is he a live-in, Jamie Graham? Yes, he is.

Did they ever get married? I don't believe so. Michael, do you know? No. In fact, it was her boyfriend before we started in this most recent court stuff. Then it became her fiancé. Are they really engaged? Does she have an engagement ring? I have no idea. Okay, all right.

Listen, I know that much. Roll it. Sophie, you need to come. I don't know! I can't! No! Why can't you? Because I can't!

I don't want you! No! Why don't you talk to her calmly? Yes, I do not want to come, I'm not going back there! I told her, I told her, Grandma, I told her. Why? Because, really, I told her. Can you talk to me?

Come on, we used to get along really, really good. We had a really, really good relationship. Okay, can you step out of my vehicle? if you can't get her to come out of the vehicle at her own will we don't see this as appropriate relationship i dropped you off we had fun we played yahtzee we did all types of stuff what happened just talk to her nothing Dad, I have no... I don't... I am not coming. But why? Because I don't want to be here anymore. Why not though?

Why are you doing this? You are hearing this child, 9-year-old Sophie, screaming not to go home. Now, to Jamie Graham, the attorney for the dad, it's my understanding that your client, Michael Long, Sophie's dad, and his ex-wife, Kelly, have been in a very long and tumultuous custody battle for Sophie since their divorce in 2015. At first, there was a 50-50 split. Then the wife moved 200 miles away and got full custody. Is that correct? Well, full custody in Texas is a little different. We have a public policy of making sure that joint managing conservatorship is in the best interest of the kids. So that's a little different than, you know, when you start talking about full custody, it's really different between the states.

Okay. So what does full custody mean in Texas? Well, meaning primary, they call it primary conservatorship. And so joint managing Okay, so what does full custody mean in Texas? Okay, but he still, even though mom moved her 200 miles away, your client, Michael Long, could still see her every other weekend. It was just very difficult. It has been. Yeah, it had been. But I mean, they had made some agreements. I mean, they were doing very well as far as making agreements with regard to possession and access for the kids. Is it true that both parents have a history of calling Child Protective Services on each other and that up to now, none of those complaints have been substantiated? I agree with that, with the exception of one thing. Okay.

Michael did not call CPS. I think he called CPS twice on the outcries. With regard to the other CPS allegations, they were called by doctors, physicians that were, you know, in the ER when Sophie went into BBR. Why did Sophie go to the ER when Sophie went into BBR. Why did Sophie go to the ER? There were several issues with regard to vaginitis, UTIs that Sophie had. Stop everything. Stop everything. Cheryl McCollum, Forensics Expert, Cold Case Research Institute, Director.

Cheryl, I've had so many cases where little girls have vaginal infections. There's no reason for a little girl to have a vaginal infection. Okay. I mean, sometimes you'll hear somebody claim it's bubble bath. I don't know that I buy into that, but uh-uh, N-O. That's not right right there. You're not even supposed to know you have a vagina at that young age. I mean, much less have an infection. Right. Her having a chronic infection, her having abdominal pains, pain so bad they take her to the emergency room. Again, the doctors should have made a notification. There's no question about it. And Nancy, I just want to... Whoa, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. This is the first time I'm hearing about vaginal infections.

Okay? Now, you may not want to hear about that, guys, but this is a part of child molestation cases. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You may attribute this case to parents hating each other after a divorce and a custody battle. But when a little girl has vaginitis, if this is true, and vaginal infections, that is physical evidence that something is not right in this case. Let me understand this, Jamie Graham. You are an attorney from Michael officer of the court to try your best to never do anything unethical. And are you telling me, Jamie Graham, that this little girl has gone to the doctor and she has been diagnosed with vaginal infections?

The evidence will show that for sure. Well, that changes everything to me. That just changes everything. Because up until now, Cheryl McCollum, it could be argued that, oh, the parents hate each other, they're using the little girl. When the little girl is diagnosed with a vaginal infection, repeat vaginal infections, that changes everything, Cheryl.

That is forensic evidence. That is solid. There's no question about it, Nancy. And again, let me just be real clear for people that are listening. Having physical forensic evidence is fantastic. But even if you think this child made this up, if you still think that, you have to believe there is something terribly wrong in order for her to do that.

So this case still needs to have everybody advocating for Sophie. Exactly. Why throw this fit? Why the screaming? The refusing to get out of the car? If she's not telling the truth, there's still something very wrong.

Guys, I want you to take a listen to our cut seven, please. I can guarantee you he's going to touch you. Yes, I'm going to make it through life. Why don't you believe me? You know what? You are a bitch. Why don't you believe me? Who's touching you?

That's okay. So who's touching you? No, I do want to know because there's no doubt. I do want to know. So who's touching you? Who's been touching you? Mr. Hickson. And Mommy, what is it? And Mommy, what does it have?

And it always makes me feel bad about myself. What does he do? What does he do? He, like, touches it and scratches it. Because one time I woke up and there was blood in my underwear. And tell me the truth. I'm not, I am not saying you're not. And Mommy says that he always makes me feel that way.

I don't like to fight. I'm an idiot. I'm not going. I'm tired of it. Blood in her underwear? I mean, I've seen a lot of cases where parents coach the child to say something. But who would come up with, say there's blood in your underwear one morning

when you woke up? That's very hard for me to imagine a parent telling a nine-year-old girl to say that. And if this girl is not telling the truth, Meryl Streep, watch out, because she is gonna win the Academy Award. I find it very difficult to believe Watch out, because she is going to win the Academy Award. I find it very difficult to believe that this child is lying in the face of her mother,

insisting she get out of the car, and the grandmother, too. I mean, you know, think about it. To you, Jamie Graham, I'm sure you tried a lot of cases. Under cross-examination. Liars crack. This little girl never cracked. I couldn't agree with you more, honestly. Okay, I want to be fair and give you the side of what the mom is saying. Jackie, please play the sound from the mom's side.

See, trust me, I know the full story. He's done this repeatedly. It happened in 2016 also. He was accusing me of sexually abusing them, and my dad of sexually abusing them. Okay. So I guess this time, like I said, the reason why we're out here is because we got a call, I guess, from him

saying that, you know, the kids tested positive for... I know. Trust me, I'm pretty pissed off about it because it wasn't from me, and it wasn't from Jake, and they spent an entire weekend with Michael, then all of a sudden he popped up positive for drugs like Michael's ex-husband Michael's the ex-husband okay like I have

my lawyer actively involved at this point because he has called CPS like 20 times in the last two weeks how long ago was it that the child tested positive Jack right yeah apparently he took him on last week when they were there. And you say you have an open seat? Okay, let me understand what's happening, Jamie Graham. You were hearing the sound of the mom, Kelly. One of the boys, Sophie's brother, actually, they're little boys. I mean, they're under what? Aren't they tweens?

Tested positive with cocaine in his system. And that is while he's at the mom's house. She responds by saying, well, he's been visiting his dad before now, seemingly pointing the finger at dad. Tell me what that's about, Jamie Graham. Well, there is going to be some forensic evidence that shows that Jack, the middle child, did come up positive for cocaine and marijuana use. There will be also a video. Quite frankly, I'm super uncomfortable about talking with regard to this because there's— Wait, don't say anything else, then.

Levi Page, Crime Online, what's the business about one of the boys with cocaine in his system? In a nutshell. Nancy, that is what the mother of Sophie is alleging, pointing the finger at the father, saying it's the father's fault it happened while he was in his father's custody. And, of course, Michael is denying that and saying it's not true. Nancy, Michael, I'm happy to talk to this one. Jump in. Yeah, so they were actually at a state with a person who had been convicted of a drug felon.

And we had noticed very, very strange behaviors of Jack over a FaceTime call. After not having him for 66 days, my wife and Jack's grandma took him into a lab in Comal County, actually had him do a zero-tolerance hair follicle test on the first day that we got him after, again, 66 days. It was the result of that that led to that call that you're listening to. So, yeah, he did test positive for cocaine and marijuana. We brought him to the authorities. They advised her in advance. And that's what the call you're looking at is the result of once the police showed up. Dave Mack, CrimeOnline.com.

Where does the case stand now? You've had over a quarter of a million people join hashtag StandWithSophie. Nancy, actually, a new bombshell in this case. A negotiated settlement was reached out of court with no judge, no trial hearing involved. I just spoke with Kelly Long's attorney, David Routzen. Here's what he told me. We did have a hearing scheduled in the courthouse, although we didn't end up having a hearing. But yes, things have transpired and changed since certainly as of Friday. Instead of going in front of a judge, you guys have met outside of court and have come up with an agreement. That is correct. And I'd say that's pretty typical of family law cases. The parties,

the attorneys and the parties work to see if a solution, if some sort of agreement can be reached to help children. And the judges encourage people to see if there's a way to do that in almost every case. And this one's no different. And so I think the parties and the attorneys worked diligently for hours to come up with an agreement temporarily, of course, nothing is permanent here, to try to, at first, honestly, the first priority was on the health of the kids. And I think the parties reached an agreement that was, and again, I stress this was a voluntary agreement. No one had to agree to it. There's been some discussion out there that it may not have been voluntary,

but it absolutely was. It was something both parties, the attorneys, felt like at this time was in the interest of the kids. All right. So in this negotiated settlement, Kelly immediately receives multiple unsupervised extended visitations with Jack and Lucas. Kelly will begin a reunification process with Sophie. The agreement also says that all the children will begin counseling immediately to help them navigate this extremely difficult time. Plus, Kelly will receive frequent, ongoing communication with her children while they are with Michael. Is there going to be a smooth movement of bringing Kelly back into their lives? Yes, that is absolutely the plan. And I'd rather not be specific because of some of the things that have gone on in the past with people being involved in these, you know, her having the children.

And I'd rather not make it specific. But, yes, unequivocally, she's going to have time with the children coming up, starting with the boys. They are going to be participating in counseling that will include her, that will also include Michael, and working to reunify and bring the kids back to the place with their mom that they had interrupted over the past month or so. So as you go through this process, is there a real plan at unifying? Is there a stair step like this month they'll have X amount of time? Is it structured like that or is it really going to be based on what a counselor recommends? It's hard to answer your question exactly. No, there is not a specific, say, you know, six-month stair-step plan or anything

like that yet. The counselors will be playing a role in that, as well as the parties, as well as the attorneys, as well as the attorneys uh the amicus attorney the new amicus attorney has been appointed as well as the guardian ad litem another counselor attorney role in the case that's been appointed by the court to advocate for the best interest of the kids all of them all of us will be participating in that uh how that goes forward um so it's kind of hard to say exactly what's going to happen as far as the exact time. You know, we can't say right now that two months from now, Kelly will have this much time and Michael will have this much time because there's still a lot of unanswered questions

about the health of the kids. And they want to have a chance to do that first. And I think the kids, you know, I think it's important. I the kids you know we believe strongly that the kids have been a I wonder use the right words they've been that there's been coaching that there's been things going on that would interfere with their relationship with their mother and we want that stopped. And I think it's going to take some time for the experts, the counselors, to work with the kids so that that's not a problem going forward. And before she has, you know,

stayed back to a primary custody arrangement, that's going to need to happen. Now, you mentioned the amicus brief and the attorney. This actually has the same weight as it would if a judge handed it down by accepting the terms of the agreement that were negotiated by both parties. The judge signed off on it, and it's got teeth, right? Absolutely. It's the best of both worlds in a sense. It is an agreement that voluntarily was entered into. And for example, I have to say I put it out there that Mr. Long voluntarily agreed that my client will have unsupervised time with the children, that he felt like that was in the best interests of these kids. And I think that's important to remember that that he's choosing this. But as you say, it did. It did. Does now have the effect of a court order because the judge then signed the written agreement. So we are bound to follow it so the fact that he thought

that that was in their best interests he he is now bound to to follow that and I think it's it's it's very instructive to think about it in the sense that all of the medical providers the experts that have been in taking a look at this case now for two months medical providers nurses doctors the amicus who was involved there have been cps people involved detectives and police departments there is is no case against Kelly Long. They've all looked at it. They don't see what Michael Long claimed was there. And I have a feeling I know what he would say to that, that it is best for the kids to be with their mom, that that's not a danger to these children. And I think that voluntary agreement that's now a court order, I think it signifies that.

I think it absolutely signals that they need both parents. They need to be with both parents. There's not a danger from either parent. How does Kelly feel about this right now? After the last month or so, I know it's been very hectic and tormenting at times. Is she satisfied with this agreement? She is. Just as I said, it was voluntary for Michael. It was voluntary for Kelly.

Is she happy with where things are at? No. She doesn't think that things should be where they're at with the kids. She doesn't believe she should ever have been denied the right to be with her children and to have them with her. No. But she understands where things are at, and she wants to be with her children more than anything. She thinks that, you know, trust me, she misses them greatly. You know, the emotions that she's, you know, had to deal with over the past month, not seeing them, not being allowed to see them, you know, it's been very difficult for her.

It's been, I would would say heartbreaking at times. She's really struggled. She's strong, and she's excited as anything. She's going to be seeing them real soon, and she's very excited about that. And I think, you know, she can't wait to start being that mom that she has been for all these years in their lives. And this agreement will give her that chance again. Wow. Well, it sounds like after all of the, after everything's said and done, we're looking at six to eight weeks of the children being separated from their mother in a very overly dramatic way for the whole world to see but there were some very very real accusations made by a child by sophie and i am going to assume at this point since there is this agreement in place that we're now saying this didn't happen i think at this point i'm not really i can't I'm not the expert you know I mean I can tell you my client unequivocally unequivocally believe that didn't happen you know it's hard to say in that sense of from a child's perspective I mean like I said I can tell you my client if it didn't

happen why would a child say that well you have to look at whether that child's whether that idea was planted in that child's mind and as hard as that is to want to believe, I think our position is that's what happened here. And you have to look at why that would happen. Why would somebody make those claims and then encourage people to give money? It's sad to think, but that's where the conclusion leads you. Are there still websites trying to solicit funds from the public on behalf of the children or Sophie? I'm aware, yes. Will they be coming down anytime soon the agreement in the court order did not expressly state that they had to know sometimes you have to deal with agreements that don't include everything you want right put it that way okay so

you're dealing with these one at a time so in the grand scheme of things right now today you guys have a handshake agreement. The family being the children with both parents, they're going to try to co-parent, unify, get the children back, seeing both parents on a regular basis, having a healthy, happy relationship as we move into the holidays. Is that what I'm hearing? That's the goal. That's the plan. I think two things I would mention. I kind of hesitated around the concept, but one of the things I deal with in my work at times, and it's

a real thing, and it is something we're concerned about in this case, is the concept of parental alienation. When a parent chooses to coach, manipulate, put ideas in a child's head against another parent, it can have some really damaging effects for children. And I think that's one of the things that our experts in this case are going to be looking at to try to deal with with these kids. And it's sad that it happens. And I think that's something that we want to make sure has stopped. And that's why we're putting things in place to make sure it doesn't occur going forward. The other thing is the way that Mr. Long handled things, if you really think about it, the claims that he made that, you know, how did he handle it? I don't think it's been best for the kids. He didn't enroll them in school. He didn't take them to counseling. He had them for a month, and he didn't do any of that. I think there was some lip service to some things, but nothing of any substance occurred in the entire four weeks he had the kids.

And if you're really concerned about children, you would take actions like those. You would take actions, and he didn't and kelly has demonstrated for basically all these kids lives that that's what she did uh she took care of them she she you know she was the one taking care of these kids and i our goal, is to return that and restore that. And I think that the public's perception of things was skewed. And the real story of what's going on with Kelly, there were false accusations made, and the kids have suffered. And we're working hard so that they'll be restored to the way it was where they were getting what they needed in the parenting. And there you have it, Nancy. Both parties agreed

to a negotiated settlement out of court with no judge or trial hearing involvement. It was a mediation that didn't involve any testimony or evidence from either party. And one more thing, the amicus attorney strongly recommended that the children's mother, Kelly Long, be the sole conservator. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.