Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - A Fake Social Worker Stole Their 17-Day-Old Baby. He’s Still Missing

Episode Date: July 19, 2026

In this episode of Zone 7, Sheryl McCollum is joined by investigative journalist Angeline Hartmann, along with Kevin Verville Sr. and Angelica Ramsey. Together, they revisit the unsolved 1980 kidnapping of newborn Kevin Verville Jr., taken at 17 days old from off-base military housing near Camp Pendleton by a woman posing as a social worker. For more than 45 years, the Verville family has never stopped searching for Kevin, who they believe has no idea he was ever taken. They believe someone listening today could recognize Kevin, help identify the woman responsible, and finally reconnect him with his family. Watch Kevin’s Story from the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20MNq579m3k Highlights: (0:00) Sheryl McCollum introduces Angeline Hartmann and the podcast investigation that helped identify six-year-old William DaShawn Hamilton (5:30) The tip that identified a child John Doe more than 20 years after his remains were found (9:30) How Angeline brought the kidnapping of Kevin Verville Jr. to Sheryl (11:00) Kevin Verville Sr. and Angelica Ramsey join the podcast to discuss their missing son and brother, Kevin Verville Jr. (12:00) A woman posing as a social worker gains the family’s trust through a fake assistance program● (16:15) Kevin Sr. recalls the ruse that got his wife out of the car moments before the suspect drove away with their newborn (19:00) The distinctive hand tattoo investigators hope someone will recognize (22:15) Angelica explains why age progression, DNA databases, and public awareness remain critical to finding Kevin Jr. (26:15) Why renewed public interest in infant abduction cases could help generate new leads (27:45) Why investigators believe Kevin Jr. was deliberately targeted (32:15) How the suspect entered the off-base military housing complex without passing the vehicle checkpoint (34:15) Angeline and Sheryl confront the victim-blaming Kevin Jr. ’s parents faced after the abduction (36:15) Cultural background, small-town trust, and how the suspect exploited the family’s openness (37:15) Why Kevin Jr. may have grown up under another identity without knowing he was abducted (39:00) How listeners can share Kevin Jr. ’s age progression and help identify both Kevin Jr. and the woman who took him Enjoying Zone 7? Leave a rating and review where you listen to podcasts. Your feedback helps others find the show and supports the mission to educate, engage, and inspire. --- Angeline Hartmann is the Director of Communication for the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children and an award-winning investigative journalist. She previously worked with America’s Most Wanted and hosts the Inside Crime with Angeline Hartmann podcast. Kevin Verville Sr. is the father of Kevin Verville Jr., abducted at 17 days old from off-base military housing near Camp Pendleton on July 1, 1980. Angelica Ramsey is the sister of Kevin Verville Jr., born after his abduction. She advocates for his case, sharing his age progression image and searching for the brother she has never met. Sheryl “Mac” McCollum is an active crime scene investigator for a metro Atlanta police department and the director of the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, which partners with colleges and universities nationwide. With more than four decades of experience, she has worked on thousands of cold cases using her investigative system, The Last 24/361, which integrates evidence, media, and advanced forensic testing. Her work on high-profile cases, including The Boston Strangler, Natalie Holloway, Tupac Shakur and the Moore’s Ford Bridge lynching, led to her Emmy Award for CSI: Atlanta and induction into the National Law Enforcement Hall of Fame in 2023. Sheryl’s new book, Swans Don’t Swim in a Sewer: Solving the Cold Case of the Flint River Killer’s Daughter, is available now wherever books are sold.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human. Y'all, my guest tonight is a multi-emmy award-winning journalist, not just a journalist, but an investigative reporter. She is the director of communications for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. She works directly with families and law enforcement to keep these cases in the public eye. She does it better than anybody I've ever seen. She's an advocate. She is a solid podcaster.

Now, won't y'all listen to me now? She doesn't have just a podcast. She's an investigative journalist, and she hit a milestone that very few podcasts are ever going to hit. She helped solve a 1999 John Doe case of William Deshaun Hamilton, who was just six years old. I'm talking about the one and only the beautiful and solid human being, Angeline Hartman. So if you love this podcast with her and you just can't get enough of her, head right on over to Inside Crime with Angeline Hartman.

And you know, here's the other thing. I want people to know this before we even get started. I'm going to refer to her as Angeline Hartman during this podcast. And here's the reason why. I most of y'all know I'm the youngest of five girls Sharon, Sheila, Charlene, Shelley and Cheryl and oftentimes people will get us confused and maybe call us by the wrong name, which is understandable.

But tonight we have another special guest, Angelica, and I just don't want to switch back and forth too quick and people get confused who I'm talking to. So I just want people to know when I say Angeline Hartman, we are friends. I would normally just say Angelina. But tonight, because of Angelica, I want people to know for sure who's fixing a way in. Angelene, how are you, honey?

Oh, my goodness. You're going to make me cry. You mentioned William Deshawn Hamilton and my eyes are welling up right here. Like, right now, I did not know you were going to say that, girlfriend. But it's just incredible work, and I want people to know. Angeline, give us a little bit of background on this case. Yeah. Okay, so this happened in 1999.

So a long time ago, right? A lot of people won't even know. But in February 1999, there was a body found, actually not a body, Sherrill. It was skeletal remains found near a cemetery off Clifton Springs Road into Cab County, Georgia. and so police pretty quickly realized that this was a child. They didn't know how old. They didn't know who it was. They just knew that it was, you know, they could tell from being out there.

And so what the heck? This is an unidentified child just found in the woods. So what happened? Who is this kid? and the mystery begins. The crazy thing is, is I was out there that day as a reporter when I worked as a reporter at Channel 5 in Atlanta. Isn't that crazy?

Yeah. So, you know, when you, as you know, when you have a case involving a child, all these cases hit you, right? But when you were talking about a child, it hits you differently. And we just knew that somebody was going to come forward. They were missing a child or they, you know, there was somebody who was going to come forward.

And nobody came forward for, you know, one month became a year and it became a long time. And so after I left Channel 5, I mean, while I was there, I just kept doing the story and he came very close with the investigators because everybody, like I said, thought that they were going to figure out who this child was. and what happened. And if you remember, one of the most, this case kind of became known as, like the case with the kid with the Timberland boots. Because in all the press conferences and things like that,

they had talked about how the child was wearing Timberland boots. And that just kind of stayed with people. I remember that. Yeah. And we even, they even brought in, this artist who, you know, put together the likeness of what this child might look like, not just, you know, a sketch, but they created a model, like a life-size model of what this

child looked like, would look like. But anyway, so fast forward, then I met America's Most Wanted, and we do the case again, it's still nobody has come forward. We still don't know who it is. fast forward now it's time for podcasts though I have my own podcast inside crime and I realize we're approaching the 20 year anniversary of when this child was found and by this time I'm at America I'm sorry I'm by this time I'm at the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children and I realize they have the case and so this case just keeps following me right and so of course I do this story for with my podcast and you know just 20 years later it reaches so many different people with social media and all kinds of different things.

And finally, someone comes forward and she had seen the podcast. She'd seen the likeness, the reconstruction that the National Center had done. And it was a woman who had been looking for her neighbor's child for more than 20 years. basically a woman in Charlotte, North Carolina, had said goodbye to her neighbor, her very close friend, and that neighbor had a daughter, or sorry, that neighbor had a son, and they left. They moved to Atlanta. And when the woman came back, the mother came back, she didn't have her son with her. And so this woman, Ava, the neighbor, said, like, what happened to your son? where's and she had all these questions and he just it stay it hit her the wrong way so she had been

asking questions for 20 something years and when I tell you mac that this was a woman who didn't give up I can't even explain it properly she said she would stay up and this is be remember this is like before the internet so she's looking through phone books she's making phone calls she's doing it old school detective, like from her bedroom, trying to call hospitals, trying to call police departments, trying to figure out what happened to this kid because she did not believe the woman when she came back without her son. And fast forward to the 20 year mark in 2022, actually it's more than 20 years, fast forward to July 22, and they, with her help, they identified him. It turned out to be, the kid that she was thinking about,

six-year-old William Deshawn Hamilton, and it was a match. The kid that was found in the cemetery in 1999 was William Deshawn Hamilton, her neighbor's son. But you know what's below in my mind is, yeah, the case followed you, but you stayed with it. I mean, this was one of those times, where you just cannot deny this was your case.

Well, I think anybody, everybody felt the same way about this case, Mac. Everybody did, you know. And when you looked at the reconstruction of what this kid, like, you're looking at a face of a child. And it just really, really hit everybody differently. And over the years, you know, you, I mean, I was very good friends with the investigators, the DeKalb County Medical Examiner's Office, they all just said, you know, there was that one case, right? This was always that one case for them. Like before I retire,

I want to find out who's the identity of that kid. They all said that. And one by one, they kept retiring. And the case was still unsolved. And so it was just crazy. And finally, when, you know, the, I give kudos to so many of those investigators to Cap County Police and, you know, the district attorney's office, they went for murder charges against the mother. And it turns out they, you know, they charged the mother with with murder, child cruelty, aggravated assault. And it was very sad all the way around, really. It is a good example of what can happen. when people don't give up and when people work together, right? And that's what we want to do with this case we're going to talk about today. Because it can happen. It can be solved. And we can find Kevin Verville, Jr.

You brought a case to me. And we were at CrimeCon a couple of years ago. And you said, I've got this case. There was a baby stolen. He was 17 days old. His name was Kevin Verville Jr. And honey, you had me right there. And you said, yes.

Like that was it. You said yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Capital Y.E.S. And that's what I love about you so much. Like, you were right on board.

Like, whatever I have to do. What, like, I'm, this is it. So I appreciate you so much. And I'm excited about what we're going to talk about today. I am too. Because July the first, today is July the first, even though this podcast won't come out today. It was important for us to talk today because this is the anniversary of when Kevin Jr. was stolen. And it was July 1st, 1980. Now, Angeline Hartman, this case has got a lot of layers

to it. It's got a few days that are kind of strung together before the actual abduction. Who do you think best could tell this story? Should it be you? Well, I think it's a combination. So how about I bring in our guests and we can kind of tag team it? I can set it up, but let me introduce them so that you, everybody's together all at once. How about that? Sounds great. We're talking about the case of Kevin Verville Jr. As you said, he was 17 days old when he was stolen.

And I used that word stolen from his family, his mom and his dad. his dad, Kevin Verville, Sr., is here with us today. And a few years later, they had a daughter, and her name is Angelica. So Angelica Ramsey is also here with us. Wonderful. Kevin, Senior, Angelica, thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having us. Yeah, thank you.

So, Kevin, you and your wife have a brand new baby, 17 days old. You're in the service. You're living off base from Camp Pendleton. And I mean, it's a struggle. You don't make a ton of money being in the service. And this woman knocks on your door and is saying, hey, I can help with diapers and formula and maybe even get you a little money to pay some bills. I mean, it seems like a godsend. Back then in the military, we didn't make much money and we were living in base housing, it was off base, base housing, stirring homes. This lady come around and she's posing as a social worker. And the way I was brought up, you kind of turned that stuff away.

But I had other family members that had been in their service. So we'd called and talked to them and they said, you know, military people at that time, we made so little money. They said that we deserved it and that we should go ahead and go for it. So we talked it over and we decided if she come back around that we would take the program. And how long was it before she came back around? Oh, it's been 46 years. I think two or three days.

Two or three days. And she presented a program called Project Help. And again, all you really knew was her name was Sheila. And you've only seen her one time. Yeah, that's correct. We only seen her the one time before the actual kidnapping, yes. Now, Angeline Hartman, how many child abductions that you've ever worked are this detailed where somebody comes, almost befriends you, offers you help, leaves, then comes back

under the same guise of, I'm going to help you? Well, it is, as you know, it is very common for someone to pose as a social worker, right? or a nurse or something like that. But in this case, she came back not once, not twice. She was there like two or three days in this military housing complex. So that tells me that she was looking for something very specific. In this case, she was there for several days knocking on doors. It's not like she went, introduced herself to a family and then took that.

family's baby. She knocked on several doors, talked to these people, took her time, and that's how ultimately investigators were able to get a composite sketch. I guess I'm jumping ahead, but investigators know that she was in that area for several days, and that's unusual. But again, her story, she's got a name. She has a vehicle. She's got a clipboard. She's going to more than one apartment. So visually, everything looks legit. It looks up and up. It looks legit. And she's not worried about somebody recognizing her and maybe identifying her later.

So that's another clue that possibly she was wearing a disguise. She had these big glasses on. She had this curly hair. You know, they know she drove away in a gray car with four doors. But yeah, she did look legit. She had a clipboard. She had a badge. She had a card that she gave to family members.

And she was not shy. They said she was friendly. And you know, Kevin, when she is not so aggressive, she's not pushy. She waits several days before she comes back. Other people have seen her around. Nothing about her seems like she's eager to necessarily do anything. thing. She's pretty relaxed about it. She was very relaxed.

In my mind, there was no doubt she was said she was who she said she was. Sure. You know, it was like going in, she was like talking to a nurse or a doctor or a sales professional salesperson in a store. She was so relaxed and comfortable when she was doing. And see, that's the thing. If she had been real pushy, like let's do it today. Let's go right now. That would be different, but she was like, hey, if you want it, let me know, I'll come back in a few days.

If it works out, it works out. I mean, that wouldn't be a red flag, I think, to a lot of people. So let me ask you this. When she says, I'm going to come back and she does, she has her own car, so she didn't even expect anybody to meet her somewhere. But then she tells your wife, Kevin, that we're going to stop and pick up another mom. Yes, my understanding is after they left in a car, she appeared to be pregnant, and she told Junior's mom that, you know, I'm not feeling, well, you've got to pick somebody else, you know how it is when you're pregnant.

Can you knock on a door for me? And then when they pulled in, I don't have no clue where it was. She, Angelina started getting out of the car. Angelina is Junior's mom name. When she started getting out of the car, she was going to take the junior with her in her arm. She's, oh, if you're just going to the door, I'll watch them. And she patted the baby. And so it didn't seem like there was anything wrong for anybody.

I would say I don't think anybody would have figured out anything. So Angelina gets out of the car and the woman speeds off with your baby. That is correct. Now, Angeline Hartman at this point, I mean, she's in a panic. She's in the middle of nowhere. There's no cell phones, of course, yet. Rural San Diego County here. And just to back up, Angelina had only been in the United States for less than a year at this point.

So, Angelina and Kevin Verville met overseas. They met in the Philippines, and they got married. And then he got transferred over there. over to San Diego, they're at Camp Pendleton, and that's where they are, they have the baby, right? And so here she is. They're both in their early 20s. She has no family here.

English is not her first language. She's thought she could trust this woman, and all of a sudden the woman drives off with her baby. She's standing there freaking out, thinking, what the heck? What do I do? Where do I go? She's probably never even been to that part of town before.

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Nobody's going to really look at it twice. It's either a gray or silver four-door sedan. That's all we know. She is a white female with, you know, red curly hair and big glasses. So that, again, is probably quite possibly a disguise. But there's nothing about her. There's not a scar. There's not a tattoo.

There's not a limp. There's nothing that you can really say. definitively about her. Well, there is a tattoo. Oh. And here's what. Okay. Yes.

And this is what I want to ask your listeners about. So the tattoo is on the left hand in that little web area between the thumb and the forefinger. And it's described as a circle with a cross or an X there, depending, I guess, how you look at it. And it was either, you know, blue or black. But I always thought maybe that's the clue to lead us to this woman. What does that tattoo mean? Who got that type of tattoo in, you know, in 1980? Where would they get that tattoo?

What does it mean? Does anybody know that? Where can they, do you have tattoo people who could tattoo artists who would know? We do. We do actually. So yes, I think let's ask a whole bunch of people. So from what was described to you, does it look like that blue, like some of the folks that are in the service and it's an older tattoo, that kind of blue looking where it's kind of bled wider a little bit? Or do they know?

Or was it thin? Like could they be a little more descriptive? Dad, I guess you're the best person on this call to answer that. I know it's been 46 years. That's the problem. In my mind, I just remembered as a small tattoo. There was a circle. It looked like if you took a, it was almost just the thickness of it would have been

if you took a ballpoint pin and just drew it on there. But it was, there's no way it was a ballpoint pen. It had to be a tattoo, you know, and I suppose the only mimic that could have been. If it was, you know, you see some of them tattoos that are put on by paper and wet. or a stick on. But it was, and as far as the color, I don't recall the color. But to me, it was a circle that was probably the size of a penny or nickel with the cross in it. Okay.

But if she put her thumb next to her hand, it would disappear. I would say no. Oh, it was a little bit bigger. Okay. All right. Well, that's something to start with, y'all. So this case belongs to everybody, so y'all get to it. Now, Angelica, I want to talk to you for a second.

I am crazy about Callahan Walsh. And I so admire what he has done to fight to keep his brother's case out and people talking about it so people can help prevent child abduction. And he's fighting for a brother he's never met. And, honey, that's what you're doing. You're fighting for a brother. You never had the opportunity to meet. And first of all, I just want to tell you how impressed I am by that. because, you know, you could be doing a whole lot of things tonight, but try to help, you know, Kevin

Jr., I mean, it just kind of, it just gets to me. And I just wanted you to know that first for me to you. So the other thing I want to know from you is what is your goal? What do you want people to know? What do you want people to do? How can we help you in this fight you're in? I would love people to continuously share his age progression, to share his story. There's so many different platforms that they can do it on.

I just want him found before my parents move on. I don't want them to not see their son before they pass away. And you have a brother out there. And he possibly has no idea he was abducted and stolen. I'm sure he doesn't know. So putting your DNA in ancestry is a big deal. Looking at the age progression, do y'all recognize this person? Does he live next door to you?

Does he work with you? Is it a guy that comes in the coffee shop and looks just like this age progression? Act on it. Call somebody. You know, I mean, it happens every day. Cases are solved because an average citizen goes, you know what, that looks like an awful lot like my son's coach. or that looks an awful lot like a guy I dated in college.

Yeah, that's how he's going to be found. I believe that. I do. I believe that. I think there's some other things we can do to maybe help push it along, but I think that's the immediate, what you can do today on the anniversary, at the very least, share his age progression, and then, again, start talking to folks, you know?

Angeline Hartman, you lived it. With America's Most Wanted, you lived it. TV works, putting people's picture out there, putting composites out there. I mean, you got to live somewhere. You got a neighbor. You go to the grocery store. You get gasoline, right? Mm-hmm.

And that's why America's Most Wanted was such a phenomenon back then. It, I mean, it was the original, right? And it happened time and time again. hundreds of times were somebody called in. You know, you don't know when you're going to be that person. And that was back then. That show was on for 25 years and it did incredible work. Fast forward to now, we have so much more with social media, with podcasts, with video,

like so much more. So the power of what the community can do is just limitless, truly. because we know people want to help. They're out there. They want to get involved. We just have to give them the information. They're motivated. Your audience is motivated.

People that go to CrimeCon, that's why they spend their hard-earned money to go so that they can make a difference. And it really is something special when it happens. When you mentioned CrimeCon, this is a case they will all share. And not only that, Angelica and Kevin, you may feel it. There should be a shift because there's all of a sudden going to be all these thousands of people, champion for y'all, thinking about y'all, posting about Kevin Jr., and they mean it. This isn't something they take lightly. They will literally act as though this is their case right now. They're going to act like this is their relative.

This is their family member. Amen. Yes. Yes. And here's the thing, you know, just with the timing of this all, as, you know, if you're a Netflix viewer, you know that one of the top shows on Netflix recently is a show about infant abduction. Now, specifically, it's a subset of, you know, they talk about fetal abduction, but it is, you know, very, very, what that show has done, has called attention to this topic. And people are very interested in what's going on now.

They're realizing, wow, there are people out there who will do anything to get a baby, you know? And so there is a profile of an infant abductor. And this woman falls in that category. And that show on Netflix has called attention to this topic. And we're getting more questions. than ever before. It's really something.

And I think that's what's going to happen with this podcast. We know that this woman targeted this family. I mean, she targeted this military off-based housing complex. Why? Because she was looking for families. Families who would respond to what she was offering, which is help for your babies. diapers, milk, whatever you need, possibly some money, right? So she goes there. She knows that she's got an

audience that's engaged. They're probably going to respond. She knocks on not one door, not two doors, but dozens of doors, sees dozens of people over days, talks to them. They hear that she can even speak to Gallag, the national language of the Philippines. And so, you know, it's unclear. Did she speak fluently, did she just know some words, but that was noted. And so she's familiar with the language. She's specifically looking for a baby. And what does she see? She finds Kevin and Angelina Berville. And mom's Filipina. Dad is white. And that's what she's looking for. Investigators believe she was specifically targeting, specifically looking for a that type of baby. There's no doubt about it.

There's no doubt about it. There's no doubt. Because you can't meet mama and not go, oh, okay, there you go. Because, you know, if I showed up with that baby at a family reunion, there's going to be some questions. So she must be attached. And then when you said and Kevin said, she looked as though she were pregnant, then that means maybe she had a miscarriage. maybe she was never pregnant, but she was determined to get her a baby. And that baby had to look a certain way.

And that baby had to be a certain age too, to go in line with her plan, right? So it had to be like a newborn baby, couldn't be a year old baby or a six-month-old baby, had to be in line with her time frame, right? And so what do you think, Mack? Do you think her partner, her boyfriend or her husband might have been Filipino? or part Asian. Yeah, 100%. Maybe he was away.

Maybe he was underway during that time and was coming back. Maybe she was even, maybe he was part of Camp Pendleton. And who knows? But she chose that. She chose a base. She, and maybe she was even hoping that, you know, Kevin Sr.

wasn't even around. Maybe she was hoping he was gone somewhere. Well, she made sure he wasn't around when she, so basically, I think dad talked about this just briefly, but just to make sure we all understand what happened here. When she introduced herself to mom and dad, she introduces the program and says, you think about it, I'll come back. When she comes back, mom and dad are unloading groceries, and she, they had decided if she comes back, yes, we will, you know, we'll accept the program, will be part of it. And she says, hey, well, that's great.

I'd like to get some measurements of the baby. We need to do some, you know, record keeping this and that, whatever. I'll take you to the office. And so that's how she convinces mom to get to go with her, take the baby and go with her to the car. And they'll drive to the office of Project Health. and she leaves behind dad because dad's putting away the groceries and she convinces him to stay behind. Like dad said earlier, well, there's not enough room in the car because along the way we're going to pick up another mother. And so along the way, she stops and she says she pulls into this neighborhood and says,

I'm going to help this other mother and her baby too. Can you get out of the car and knock on the door? And that's what happens. that's when the abduction happens. All right. So let me do. It's really hard to imagine. No, it is, it's unimaginable.

But again, she had everything answered ahead of time. Oh, there's no room. Oh, we'll be right back. I mean, she's got it set where it makes sense. No, she clearly had a plan. Yeah. And so when investigators went back and figured out, oh, she had been here for days. Oh, she'd talk to all these people.

like I said earlier, that's how they figured out she, that's how they came up with the composite sketch because she had talked to so many people in that apartment complex. And I talked to some of those, we tracked down some of those people. And can you imagine some of those mothers have said to me now like, oh my gosh, I talked to that lady. What if this would have been me? I mean, people are horrified on different levels. That's right. Well, it could have been them. If the baby You had been right. It would have been them. Right.

Right. Hey, I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore. Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. Heated rivalry. Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together. I'll tell you the stories of Fice, My Moon, My Man, Wolf Parades, I'll Believe in Anything, and tattoos all the things she said, and how they all became a part of this global phenomenon. stream on core on iHeart radio crave or wherever you get your podcasts

Kevin senior and Angelica I'm going to ask you all this question because I'm thinking now it is a military base was there not a guard there how was she able to ride into the base the it was off base base housing and the gate for driving the car into had a guard there so if you drove on to the property you had to have a on your car or some kind of identification. But because it was off-based housing, there was a walk-in gate where you could walk in and you did not need any identification to walk through that gate. You could walk right on.

Well, Angelica, do you think there's a chance she had a sticker on her car or some kind of fake ID? So I recall my mom telling me the story and I remember her saying that she had a walk-walk a long way to get to the car. Okay. And then it bothered her because she still had stitches from giving birth. Okay. So she didn't drive on.

All right. Well, that answers that. And, you know, there's probably a lot of people that might say, why didn't she get a tag number? I mean, Kevin, explain that so people don't bring that up and don't harp on the wrong thing. Well, Angelina was born and raised in the Philippines. and if you've been to the Philippines during that era, most people did not have cars.

You rode public transportation. And so she did not understand that each car had to have a registration, and each car had his own Pacific plate on it. So she wouldn't have known to look for the plate. Plus, even the stress of the whole thing that was going on, she couldn't even hardly describe a car. plus she didn't know what to look for it to begin with. Matt, can I just say something?

Yes, please. This family, you talk about, you brought up that question to help answer that for people who might be critical. This family has received so much criticism over the years in the beginning, I should say. you know, when this first happened, because of course, people say, why did he let her go? Why did she let the baby go? Why this? Why that? And that just makes me so mad because it's not fair. And that's blaming the victim. And don't get me started with that. But basically, I just want to say right now that let's not do that. And I don't know. No, you said it perfect. This family's been through a lot. lot. And absolutely. And here's the deal. They were set up. They were set up by a criminal. They were

set up by somebody that would steal a baby. They were set up by somebody that had a plan in place probably even before Kevin Jr. was born. So again, it can happen in a blink of an eye. And, you know, they're waiting. They're stalking. They are predators. One mistake. That's when it happens. You turn your back for one second. You let them walk just around the corner. You let them get on a video game. You let them go to a sleepover.

You let them walk next door. But that's normal childhood behavior. You've got to be able to ride a bike. You've got to be able to walk down the street. You've got to be able to go to a friend's house. So, I mean, it's not your fault. It's not your fault. Angelica, what are you thinking, honey?

I also want to point out that my dad was from a very small town in North Dakota. And in the Philippines, the culture there is you invite strangers over to your house. I mean, it's a very open door culture. So I feel like they were very open. I mean, I remember going to North Dakota with my dad and ask him, why are you waving at people that you're driving by? Because I did not grow up around that, you know, where I grew up, people didn't wave at each other. But, you know, I'm like, did you know that person?

He's like, no. But she just did. You drove, you drove by each other and you waved at each other in a small town. Right. So he's from a small town. She's from overseas on an island. This is 45 years ago, 46 years ago now. So just imagine things were so different.

So different. There's only one person to blame, and it's the mysterious Sheila, whoever she is. That's it, period. So, Angeline, I just have one question for you. With this stolen baby, how do you think she got a birth certificate in a way to get him into a doctor, into school later on, a Social Security number? Who knows, Mack? I mean, there's so many different ways, right?

I mean, she could have been, did she go overseas after this? Did she have somebody else? You know, she could have come up with any story. I mean, we know from other infant abduction cases that the paperwork is not an issue, right? These things happen. She could have claimed the home birth. Yeah. Anything.

Anything. But the what we, the important thing to note right now is that he, she, she. took him to raise him herself. People take children or babies for different reasons. But in this particular case, it is highly likely that she took Kevin Verville Jr. to raise as her own baby, right? To raise on her own. And if that's the case, fast forward to now, that means he has grown up. He's 46 years old today and has no idea about. his real identity walking around this earth. Kevin Senior, thank you so much.

I appreciate you sharing this heartbreaking story. Angelica, thank you so much. And y'all've got an army behind you now. So Angeline Hartman, what can people do tonight? What can they do this minute? Well, first, I'd like them to go to YouTube to Nick Mix YouTube channel, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, and look up the Kevin Verville story.

We put together a nine to ten minutes story. I'm sure you'll give them the link, Mac. And I want them to watch the full scope of what happened here. And then that will give them some, that will give them more information. We want them to share the age progression photo, the image of what he might look like now. And we want to hear back regarding this abductor, what are their ideas. Let's figure out how to get the focus on her because we're not just looking for him or we're looking for her. And the more people talk about this, I'm asking people to talk about this the whole month of July. Today was 46 years ago when he was abducted. But let's talk about it for the whole month of July and make it something that the topic of conversation. And the more people talk about it. about it, the more it'll get out there. And that's our goal. Absolutely. And let me just tell the folks

here in Zone 7, Angeline Hartman and I are talking about some things to do. So while we're thinking of what's next, what can we do that hadn't been done? Like Angeline Hartman said, y'all do the same thing. All right. So I appreciate all of you. And we will have updates as we get them. And we are all going to start sharing. So thank y'all so much. Mack, thank you for every anything you're doing for this case, for all the cases that you cover. You are, I mean, we cannot say enough good about your work. You're the real deal, my friend, and I just love you. Well, nobody fights alone over here.

Y'all, I'm going in Zone 7 the way that I always do with a quote. The tip that solves this case could come from anywhere. Angeline Hartman, Director of Communication, for the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. I'm Cheryl McCollum, and this is Zone 7. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.