Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - A video, voice recording & DNA, but NO SUSPECT in the murders of two teen girls in Delphi, Indiana

Episode Date: June 11, 2020

Liberty German, 14, and Abigail Williams, 13, go for a hike in a popular park near home. The bodies of the two friends found on Valentine's day. One of the girls videotaped the suspect as he approached, but no arrests have been made.Joining Nancy Grace today: Kelsi German - Libby's Sister Becky Patty - Libby's Grandmother  Ashley Willcott - Judge and Trial Attorney, Anchor on Court TV Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist Sheryl McCollum - Director of Atlanta's Cold Case Investigative Research Institute Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University, Author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Alexis Tereszcuk - CrimeOnline Investigative Reporter  TIP LINE: Delphi Homicide Investigation Tip Line: 844-459-5786 Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. How do two little girls get abducted and murdered, basically in broad daylight? And why have years passed and the case is still unsolved even though we believe the perp, the killer, is caught not only by camera but by audio? It doesn't make sense to me. And now the victim's families are asking why. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I'm talking about two beautiful little girls that are abducted and murdered in Delphi. I'm Nancy Grace.

This is Crime Stories. Let's start by hearing from Libby's grandma. What happened? Tell me that day from the time they got there for dinner. Well, they went upstairs. Of course, Abby came bringing in a big old tote of paint. Yeah, they were going to paint. Of course, Libby's room wasn't nearly as organized as Abby's.

Her stuff's everywhere, still is. You walk through, and you find some paint here, and you find some paint there, and all of her other stuff. So they went upstairs, and of course, you know how kids do. They take lots of selfies and videos. And so we know what they were doing that night because Libby did some videos of Abby there painting. And there is a canvas there of where they started a new painting. It said chocolate. Imagine that.

Was it even spelled right? I can't remember. There was something wrong with one of the letters. So they were up in the room doing their thing. And, of course, they're up half the night. Girl stuff, girls talking and whatever. You are hearing Grandma Becky Patty speaking to me at CrimeCon in a live podcast in an effort to help solve the murders of Libby and Abigail. But guess what? They're not solved.

We want justice. I mean, we have who we believe to be the killer, on camera and on audio. I guarantee you there's going to be DNA at that crime scene. So where's the perp? With me, an all-star panel. To break it down and put it back together again, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter Alexis Tereschuk joining us. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet,

death investigator Joseph Scott Morgan. The founder and director of the Cold Case Research Institute and colleague Cheryl McCollum. Psychologist joining me out of New York, Karen Stark at karenstark.com. Judge and trial lawyer, Court TV anchor Ashley Wilcott, and special guest joining me now, Libby's sister, Kelsey German. Kelsey, let me just start with you. I don't believe two or three days passed by that I don't think about Libby and Abigail.

Kelsey, when you think of them, what goes through your mind? A collision of thoughts, I'm sure. Yeah, when I think of them, I try to think of all the good memories and not the bad ones. But most of the time, I'm just trying to rack my brain thinking about who could possibly do something like this in such a small town. So I spend a lot of time just thinking about all the good memories I have with both of them. You know, I do that too with my fiance, who, as you know, was murdered just before our wedding. And my dad dad who passed away recently i think of all the good things once in a while the thoughts of their death or funeral invade my happy thoughts and i i push it away

because i don't want to think about that when those thoughts do come to you, Kelsey German, what do you think? Usually during that time, I do try to push them away. But I also go to my therapist pretty quickly when those come, because when those come, I usually end up having some really bad nightmares at the end of the night. And so usually during that time... You have usually during that time you have really bad nightmares you have really bad nightmares they're so bad um what do you dream i still have those nightmares about keith my fiance still to this day what is your dream kelsey i'm very curious um there's a lot of times i'll dream about um being in the woods with them that day and crossing the bridge and trying to help them, but I can't get to them.

Sometimes I'll see his face or sometimes it'll just be a blurry vision of him coming towards me. It just kind of depends on the thoughts that I have before then. You know, that's very similar to the dream I often have still about Keith. I dream that I know where he is and I have an address. Let's just pretend it's 43 Kelsey German Road and I'm looking and it's getting dark and I hear voices and I think it's him and I get to 41, 42 and it skips to 44, the street address. I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa, where's 43? And I cut down an alley and then another alley and I'm looking and I can hear their voices, but I can't

find him. Dreams like that. I know our shrink today, who's awesome, Karen Stark, would say it's not good to repress memories or push them away from your mind when they come. But, you know, sometimes life is just easier that way, not to think of the painful thing. You know, I don't believe she would have these nightmares as much, Cheryl McCollum, if we had an answer because if you noticed Libby's Liberty Libby's sister said a lot of times his face the perps faces blurry you know why because we don't know who he is because he hasn't been caught Cheryl McCollum what's the problem that's a part of this case Nancy that it stunned me for over three years.

We've got him on video. Video. We've got his voice. And right now, I want to kind of concentrate a little bit on his accent. His accent. You and I get messages all the time about his accent, right? He says, guys, down the hill. But if you listen to how he's talking, he's controlled. He's not screaming.

He doesn't grit his teeth. He's just given a directive. And that directive tells you he's got a planned spot. This was a planned crime. This was a controlled person who did this deliberately. Okay. Does that help me find him? I don't know.

I'll have to analyze what you just said. We just heard Becky Patty saying the girls spent their night before painting and talking and laughing and taking incessant videos. I can just imagine that. Take a listen to more of what Becky tells me. They slept in, and they got up, I don't know, it was 9.30, 10 o'clock, and they had pancakes for breakfast, brunch. And they came out and said, we want something to do. Well, my office is at home.

The dreaded words, what can we do at home and I said dreaded words what can we do now and I said you know what I got some files that need to be filed you want to make some money but they they were they were out there working away and um especially if you said I'll take you shopping you know you do this for me I'll take you shopping so they were out there and Kelsey Libby's sister, come out and said, hey, I'm going to stop by a friend's house for a little bit, and then I have to be at work at 4. Libby, that's all it took.

She jumped up and said, hey, because it was a beautiful day. It was a bad day. Hey, action. Drop us off at. You know, gotcha. Hey, we can. And I said, well, what about this filing? Okay, we'll do it later.

I promise. We'll do it later. So I said, well, that's fine. She Okay, we'll do it later. I promise. We'll do it later. So I said, well, that's fine. She said, can Kelsey drop us off at the trails? And I said, well, okay, but I'm busy. You're going to have to get a ride home. Guys, you are hearing the grandmother, Liberty's grandmother, Libby Bakey Patty, telling me about the last day that Liberty and Abigail were seen alive.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the abduction and murder of two precious little girls. Basically, in broad daylight. And why the family members are still having nightmares to this day with a vague face approaching them in the woods. It's because we don't have the face. Nobody's behind bars for these heinous murders of two little girls. You just heard Becky describing to me how the two girls were filing for some extra money, her files, and the moment they got a chance, they decided to go to the park, to the walking trail, and said, hey, we'll do the files later. When my daughter Lucy says that, I'll do it later,

we say, you'll do it never, because that's what that means. But take a listen to what we learned then. When did you realize something was not right at all? Well, our whole family was out there looking. We all left. Tara, my daughter, went straight over there. Derek was there. My other son come pulling in as I was leaving, and he said, What are you doing? I said, We're going to go look for the girls.

So he jumped in the car with me. We drove, if they would have decided to walk home, we drove both directions that they would have gone, both routes. We got there. We had six cars there. We were taking over everything. We split up. We walked all the trails.

Cody and Kelsey went across the bridge. They went across and up to the road and up to the houses up there. Were the sheriffs there yet? Not yet. By this time, it was a little after 5. Was it getting dark yet? Not yet, it wasn't, but I knew it was going. And I was on the phone most of the time with AT&T trying to get them to ping her phone,

and they won't do it. Can you imagine mom, in this case grandma, begging AT&T, please ping my girl's phone, and they refuse to do it? Joining me, Kelsey Germ, this is Libby's sister, Karen Starr, New York psychologist, Cheryl McCollum, Cold Case Research Institute, Joe Scott Morgan, forensics, and Alexis Tereszczyk joining me right now. CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. Also with me, Ashley Wilcott, Court TV anchor. Alexis, the reserve, the park, it's more of a wooded area with a long hiking trail. Tell me about that trestle bridge.

The Monmon Bridge, it's huge. It's a huge old wooden bridge. It's not covered. It's just a regular wooden bridge with wooden planks, like looks like almost logs. And it's just in the middle of this park where everybody goes. This is a regular place. Families take their kids, girls. You're fine with your teenagers. Well, you were fine back in 2017 with your teenagers going there to hang out. And so the girls were there playing.

It's a deserted area because it was February. It's cold. And it's so, the girls are there. It's wide open. There are so many pictures of the area. And you know what? Because these girls are modern day teenagers, they were snapping pictures, taking video, putting it on social media, putting it on videos of each other on Snapchat for their entire trip. So the second they stopped communicating with each other and with their families, that's when everybody knew that something was wrong in this tranquil area. To Ashley Wilcott, Court TV anchor, judge and trial lawyer.

Ashley, we have gone over and over the trail. Tell me what you observed. All right. So I was there in March and we walked the trail. Tell me what you observed. All right. So I was there in March and we walked the trail. First of all, it's beautiful. The trail's kind of up so you can see down and you can see the highway from different pieces of it. And then you get to this trestled bridge. And let me suggest this.

It is so gorgeous. I can see why everybody in the community uses this trail. But Nancy, here's what bothers me. I think there was such a comfort level there before this happened. The whole community goes there. The fact that she took this recording, I do not believe that she knows this person at all. I believe that they were surprised. They didn't know who it was, but their little spider sense said something's wrong

and we're going to video this. Now, the other thing about this trail is, you know, the trail starts by the interstate where you walk over that and then walk the trail. And there's another entrance by a house where these two girls entered the trail. So they walk by this house. They come in a side trail, take the main trail to the railroad. So my point is what's amazing is what Cheryl McCollum said. There are people around. There's a house where they entered the trail.

This is a community. They have a video. Nobody saw anything. Nobody heard anything. This is just so disturbing to me to kelsey german this is liberty libby's sister you dropped them off question to you is this a place where other people were out jogging and walking or were they seemingly all alone yeah absolutely i don't know that i saw anybody at the time but i'd known throughout the day that there were people there all day.

People my age and people even younger were out there that day just hanging out and enjoying the warm weather of that day. You can hardly go to a park or a playground or a trail like this and not see people there, which makes it even more confounding that nobody noticed this guy. And that leads me to my next question to Liberty's sister, Kelsey. Why would they have taken a video of this guy approaching them on that trestle bridge? True, they took videos of everything, but typically of themselves doing selfies or doing funny TikToks or something like that. Why do you believe they would have taken that video of this man approaching them? And you could go to Crime Online and see him just as clearly as I can.

What would lead them to video or photograph a complete stranger? Kelsey? I think they were worried. I think they were a little creeped out by this person that was behind them and they were just going to take this video and bring it home and show us and say, hey, look at this really creepy guy that was behind us on the trails today. Why do you say he was behind them? Well, the picture of Abby was towards the end of the bridge, and it looks like the guy's coming towards them, so I would say he's behind them, or they're walking towards him, I guess.

You know, I'm so glad you said that, Kelsey, because in my mind, the way I looked at the photo of who I believe to be the killer, I thought they were coming from one end of the bridge and he was coming from the other end. But you just brought up that you believed he had been behind them and that you think they got afraid, creeped out, and they took a video. You know what I'm very curious about, Kelsey?

The time of the picture or video of him coming toward them, how close in time was it that one of the girls thought to record him saying, go down here, instructing them to go down into the woods beside the bridge? How close were those two things? I have no idea. I know that the picture was taken at like 2 0 7, but I don't think there was a time stamp on the video. Interesting. Interesting. So when they're getting his voice, telling them, directing them, ordering them to go down the side of the bridge to the woods. You don't know what time that was, correct?

I do not. Two special guests joining me now, Liberty's grandmother, who I consider to be a friend who joined us at CrimeCon, Becky Patty. Becky, thank you for being with us. Thank you for inviting us. Becky, you know, I told you when I saw you in person, I'm never letting go of this case until it's solved, until I see it all the way through the appellate route after the conviction. And I know this guy is behind bars. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the disappearance, the kidnap, and the murders of two gorgeous girls in Delphi, Abby and Libby. Becky, I was just asking

Kelsey a question, an evidentiary question. You may know the answer. From the time the girls took the picture or video of the killer, who I believe to be the killer, coming toward them on that trestle bridge. Guys, look at it. At Crime Online, you can see the picture. That was at 2.07. How soon after that did they record his voice? Do you know, Becky? No, I do not know a time, but I do know that it happened at the end of the bridge. So I believe that Libby felt trapped and wanted to do something because the trails end at the end of the bridge. So she knew she was at the end of where they were supposed to be. I wonder why she decided to take that video and record him. I've heard it a million times, but Becky, what is he telling the girls to do in the video? He told them to go down the hill. Why do you think they went along with that, Becky?

I feel that he took control of them right there. What do you mean? Do you think he had a weapon? I believe there was something. Libby wouldn't, if somebody just came up to her and said, hey, go down the hill, authority figure or not, she would not unless there was something that prompted her. So, yes, I believe that he somehow took control of them about the time he told them to go down the hill. I'm curious if they were taking pictures of other people in the park that day or just him. Because typically, I mean, I'm basing this on what I see my twins do when they're 12, about their age. And they take videos, selfies, they make TikTok, stuff like that. But they don't just take pictures of random people they see at a playground or a park. I've never seen them do that.

There was something about this guy that made them video him. And the reason I'm asking the time to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert and author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, is because I think this is the guy. And if they took the picture, let's just say 30 seconds later, you hear his voice and it's captured on audio, then that's him. I'm looking at the correlation between the photo and the audio of him ordering them off the bridge and down into the woods. Get it?

Yeah, completely. Who else could it be other than this person that they have taken the time to videograph right here? And then we have this voice, this voice that's haunted us for, you know, these past three years over and over again, giving them a specific directive. And that's very important. You know, you talk about, you know, how this individual would have taken charge and, and listen, there's no nonsense in his voice. You know, he, he is giving them a specific directive and he's giving them a specific location to go to. So I would think that this individual was menacing in some way. I don't know if he was holding a weapon, if he displayed a

weapon. I don't know that he's necessarily a large guy. But, you know, when you're a young teenage girl, grown men are going to appear. Right there. That's something I don't understand because it's very simple. Cheryl McCollum, is it not? Director of Cold Case Research Institute to measure the handrail on the bridge as he's walking beside it and extrapolate down to the inch as to how tall the guy is. Is it not, Cheryl McCollum? That's how you do it. You take the measurement of a known, a fixed object, such as a car tire or a car or a bridge or a tree or whatever's there and you measure it, then you can extrapolate and determine almost to the inch, the height of this guy, Cheryl McCollum.

You can do that, Nancy, but the reality is we've got a freaking video. We've got him walking. We've got his clothes. We've got his voice. How many cases have you and I worked together that we had a video of the perpetrator, that we had his voice and the cadence of his walk and the way he dressed. Zero. Zero. You know, I'm going to throw that to, good point, I'm going to throw that to Libby's grandma, Becky Patty, after hearing the voice, seeing the video,

what is the working theory as to who this guy is? What are police telling you? We've gone through three years. We've got his picture. We've got telling you? We've gone through three years. We've got his picture. We've got his video. We've got his voice. And I guarantee you, I don't know if the cops have told you this or not, but I bet they've got his DNA. Where are they saying the guy's from

based on his accent? You know, we don't get a lot more information than what you guys do. They haven't. And I don't know that they want to give some of that out. Why? They do continually say that he is, at least has local ties. So that would tell me his accent would probably be from around here. That is a very good deduction. Agree or disagree, Cheryl McCollumum and see I actually reached out to a

linguist expert that works for Disney and what he does is he works with actors that they want to take on a certain accent for a movie and he didn't know anything about the case this was two and a half years ago and I sent him just the clip of down the hill he wrote me back almost immediately and said rural Indiana wow Cheryl by the, by the way, that was brilliant. Okay. Brilliant. And based on what you're saying, what the Disney expert is saying, and what Becky Patty's telling me, I agree. So, I mean, I don't get it. Alexis Tereschuk, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. We know he's a local, rural Indiana. We know what he looks like we've got his voice alexis do you know if there's any dna i do not know specifically if there is dna but i have spoken

with the sheriff in town many many many times and he told me that they what whatever evidence they had and again they will be there as libby's grandmother said they're they hold this really close to them and they don't share it too much. They don't want to tip off the killer. Why? They don't want to tip off the killer. Tip off the killer? They don't want him to know.

Hey, that cow is out of the barn. The ship has sailed. I don't understand that. Is that some police technique, Cheryl McCollum? I mean, I've handled cases where we did not release information because it was critical it not get out at that moment. But I mean, it's been three years. I think at this point, I'll bet for all. I think they should release as much of the video as they can, as much as just, you know, phrasing, you know, phrasing to them as they can. He had to have touched them. We know that. So touch DNA has got to be on the clothing. This guy is hiding in plain sight. He is watching the media. He's probably going to listen to this. So again, we need to tell him, dude, we got your DNA. We're coming. We're not going to stop. The police get 3,000 tips a week. I mean, come on. Look what Kelsey's doing. That may all be true, but nothing

is happening that we know of to Becky Patty, Libby's grandmother. Becky, have police told you that they've been able to retrieve DNA? They have admitted, even in a couple of interviews, that there is DNA. Now, as to how much or what kind or whatever, they have not been specific with us. And there may be a reason for that. But we do know Tobe Lesenby, which is our county sheriff, did an interview with our local paper last week or the week before and said that there's a partial fingerprint. OK, I'm torn between happiness that we've got a little bit of evidence there and I'm confounded because if there is DNA and there's a partial fingerprint i mean help me what's happening crime stories with nancy grace Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about the murders.

There's no nice way to say it, of two little girls, Abby and Libby. Abby Williams, Abigail, Libby, German, Liberty, just 13 and 14. They go out to walk a populated, popular trail, and they end up dead can you imagine becky patty running through the park that night with all the family trying to find them as it's getting dark begging at&t to release the ping records the cell phone records can't get the info the the shock when they learn their girls they were just upstairs playing and painting that they're dead and three years pass and no resolution. Back to you, Joe Scott. Jump in. What were you saying?

Yeah, just like Becky had mentioned a moment ago. First off, I'm shocked. I haven't heard this bit of information. There's no reason I would. Becky's part of the family that they had recovered a partial print. However, this is the caveat. Maybe there is DNA. And I've heard a couple of these law enforcement types that are involved in this case state

that at least peripherally. And now we have a partial fingerprint. Here is the rub when it all comes down to it. We can develop a fingerprint. We can develop a DNA profile perhaps. But if there is nobody, no one to compare it to, then you're kind of left, you know, dangling in the breeze at that point in time. If an individual is not in a database, and I believe this person has offended before, Nancy, but I just don't know. And it may be just be, it may be a misdemeanor where DNA wasn't taken, or it may have been

in another jurisdiction. But, you know, you can put it in the NCIS, the National Database. But I want to reiterate what Joe Scott is saying. When you get a fingerprint off a crime scene, off clothes, off a body, people go, oh, we got a fingerprint. Well, what are you going to compare it to? You have to have a known print. That's the latent or the discovered print at the scene. But without anything to compare it to, they're not in the APHIS, the DNA, excuse me, the fingerprint database. And it doesn't mean

you're a criminal. You could be like me. I was a government servant. My fingerprints are in the database. A lot of people on our program right now have fingerprints in the database for many different reasons. Nancy, please listen. One of the things I've thought about with this case, why were the girls out there? Were they brought there? Why were they out of school that day? Well, there's an awareness in this community that school was out that particular day.

I think that it was a makeup snow day or whatever it was. It was actually unseasonably warm. We combine that with the knowledge that whoever was involved in this had a knowledge that kids were probably out of school that day. Now, that leads me back to another point. I'm not saying that this is the case.

However, you've got a person that's DNA is not popping up. You've got an individual whose prints are not popping up. That points me in the direction of age. I'm wondering if this person has committed this crime, has not quite passed that age marker yet where they have hit, you know, where they're a career criminal. Maybe this is their first time out. And so that points me to maybe it's a younger person as opposed to an older person. We think about that image. And I know that you'll probably talk about that. And he the newer image that that Indiana State Police released is completely different than the initial image that came out. And I think that that is a striking point here. The fact that there's nothing in a database and the fact that they changed the

composite image to make this individual look younger, I think that it might give us an indication this person has maybe not offended at this degree to this point. Karen Start with me, New York psychologist at karenstart.com. Earlier, you heard Kelsey, this is Libby's sister, describe the horrible nightmares she endures. And very often, she's the one in the woods, not Abby and Libby, or with Abby and Libby. And she sees the perp coming toward her, but the face is vague. Is there a chance if this guy's caught, she will see his face and her demons, her nightmares will go away? I think, Nancy, it would certainly help if she could see his face. Will they go away?

I think over time, if she keeps working on it, she said she has a therapist, and there is an awful lot that you could do for a traumatic incident like that. But as long as he's out there and she's not able to have a visual, I think that that's exactly what's going to happen. What she's thinking about in the daytime, unfortunately, is going to repeat at night in one form or another. And by the way, you talked about, you know, repression, and that's not a good thing. And I would agree with you. But sometimes it is a defense. And our defenses are there for a reason. There are times, like you said, if having a thought about someone that you love who died is interfering,

you want to put it away. But in her case, that's very hard to do. You know, Kelsey, with me right now, Liberty's sister, do you remember dropping them at the trail? Yeah, I remember it clear as day. We got to the trail and I remember making sure they both had sweatshirts and I got out of my car and Libby turned around and told me she loved me and I told her it back and then I drove away. Do you ever relive that? Think back on it? Yeah, I sometimes wish that I wouldn't have dropped them off so I always think about it and think about how I could have done it differently or if I should have looked at something else that was there. Or maybe I saw something that I'm pushing back into the back of my mind and not thinking about now.

So I think about it often. Have police told you whether the girls were assaulted, Becky? No, they haven't told us. They haven't told us. They haven't told us and I'm not sure that I want to know. I mean, I do, but I'm afraid to. I hear you. You know, don't feel alone. Do you know that to this day, I have never been able to bring myself to go back to the spot where my fiance was murdered? Never gone there. I can't, I don't want to see it. I back to the spot where my fiance was murdered. Never gone there. I can't, I don't want to see it. I don't want it in my head.

There's enough there already. So I hear you. There's just some things I don't want to know, believe it or not. Well, we already, you know, like Kelsey said, we already, we live a lot of that day every day. It goes through my head, the last moment that I saw Libby, her standing there smiling at me. And I think if only I'd have said no. And every day you live the different possibilities and scenarios of what those girls could have gone through. We think of everything possible.

So you already have all these horrors in your mind. So I don't think you want to know for a fact that maybe they lived that horror. I hear you. You know, in my mind, when Keith was murdered, it was just like that. He felt no pain. He was alive one minute, and the next minute he was in heaven. That's how I want to think it happened. And I hear you.

Some days I just don't want to think there's another alternative. For all of you listening and watching right now, won't you please help us get justice? The tip line is 844-459-5786. Repeat, 844-459-5786. We wait and pray as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend.