Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Accused CHILD sex perv Ghislaine Maxwell to walk free?

Episode Date: October 27, 2020

Friends of disgraced socialite Ghislaine Maxwell want her released on bail. Brian Basham says Maxwell is starving and is humiliated by having to wear prison-issue paper clothes with no bra. All this comes on after the release of a 400-page deposition regarding her involvement in Jeffrey Epstein's sex crimes.Joining Nancy Grace Today: Anne Bremner - Seattle Washington, Trial Attorney Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, www.carynstark.com  Bobby Chacon - Former Special Agent FBI, screenwriter on "Criminal Minds" Melissa Cronin - Investigative Journalist and Author of, "Epstein: Dead Men Tell No Tales"  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last hours, we learned there is a move afoot for the so-called madam of Jeffrey Epstein, known child sex trafficker, to get sprung from jail. That's right. She says she is being humiliated by wearing jail clothing and they're not letting her adhere to her vegan diet. it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A campaign is underway to get Ghislaine Maxwell out of jail. Operation GGO, Get Ghislaine Out, was started by family friend Brian Bashram. He claims that Maxwell's human rights are being violated, that she is forced to wear paper clothing with no bra due to the risk of suicide. He also claims that since her incarceration, Maxwell, a vegan,

has dropped 25 pounds due to improper diet. Bashram claims that when Maxwell complained about losing so much weight, prison officials removed her scales to stop her from weighing herself. He says that prison guards have stopped talking to Maxwell while she spends her days isolated in a nine foot by seven foot cell. Bashram says fat isolation is being extended to her male as well.

He claims that family letters are being vindictively not given to her. Brian Bashram says he finds it appalling that Maxwell was still in custody when other sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were granted bail. Maxwell has denied all six counts relating to child sex trafficking, procurement and perjury. You're hearing our friend Dave Mack from CrimeOnline.com. Maybe it has something to do with Weinstein's victims being adults as opposed to Epstein and Gill and Maxwell's alleged victims being children. At the time, they were sex trafficked. Again, I'm Nancy Grace and I want to thank you for being with us. This as Operation GGO, get Gill and Maxwell out of jail,

is underway. Will it happen? Joining me in All-star panel to break it down and put it back together again, first of all, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle joining me, trial lawyer Ann Bremner, former prosecutor. Also with me, renowned New York psychologist joining me from Manhattan, Karen Stark at karenstark.com. That's Karen with a C. Former special agent with the FBI, screenwriter on Criminal Minds, Bobby Chacon. Also with me, Melissa Cronin, investigative journalist and author.

Melissa, it's so great to have you with us. Melissa, also the author of a brand new book about Epstein and an upcoming Epstein book called Epstein, Inc. Melissa Cronin, what do you make of the news that there is a movement underfoot to have Ghislaine Maxwell sprung from jail? So this man, Brian Basham, said that he finds it appalling how she's being treated in prison. And anyone who knows anything about this case finds it appalling that someone would think there was any chance this woman should be released. It's just another example of how delusional she is. I mean, Epstein himself was not released on bond with all of the claims made against him.

She's part and parcel of all those claims. I think part of it has to do with that sweetheart deal he got down in Palm Beach when he basically had house arrest for part of the day and could go in and out of the jail at his will. There was a parade of young girls going in and out of his office when he was on day passes from the jail. So I'm sure that they're concerned Gillian Maxwell will either take off or end up dead if she is released. What do you make of her claims that she is being, let me just say, singled out for bad treatment? Like I said before, I think she's totally delusional because she just has to realize that she might have gotten away with it for years so far. But now the hand of justice has come down on her and she's not getting away with it for years so far, but now the hand of justice

has come down on her and she's not getting away with it. She's not going to get special treatment. She's not going to get her couture and her vegan diet. She just has to wake up to the reality that her time has come and she's going to have to pay for what she did. Who is Brian Basham? I only know that he is a family friend of Ghislaine Maxwell, who is the one reporting from behind jailhouse walls that she has lost so much weight that her scales were taken away. I've got news for everybody. I don't think inmates have scales in their jail cell. That's a load of BS.

That's a technical legal term. But I don't think that to you, Ann Bremner, you're the high profile lawyer out of Seattle. I have never once in all the jails I've ever been in seen an inmate with a set of scales. Great. Mine is single leg, Nancy. That's the first thing I thought is like, I've never heard of an inmate having scales in their cell and then having them taken away because they're losing weight. I mean, that just does not ring true. And if it's true, it's a first. What a big, fat lie. Now, isn't it true, Ann Bremner, former prosecutor,

but now civil and defense lawyer, isn't it true, Ann, that at the close of every felony case, the jury is instructed by the judge that when a person, a witness, be it a defendant, a cop, doesn't matter, is caught lying under oath, even if it's about something small, the jury will then have the decision, the opportunity, if they wish, to discount all that witness's testimony in toto, in total, if that witness is caught lying. Would you agree or disagree that that is the state of the law? I agree completely. It's false in one, false in all. The Latin term, I think, is falsus in unum, falsus in pluriam. Oh, you're up in the game throwing your Latin phrases at me. So let me break it down. If this is being reported by this so-called family friend that her scale has been taken out of her jail cell,

there is no way an HELL, an inmate, and a high-security CI, Correctional Institute, is going to have a scale. It'll take about a New York minute for one of those inmates to pick that up and bash a warden, a trustee, or another inmate right in the skull and kill them right there with the scales. Okay? So that's BS. And if he's lying about that or someone is lying about that, then why should I believe any of this BS? No, I completely agree. I'm not going to use the Latin again, but you can't believe anything they say.

I mean, that is so preposterous. I mean, she can't wear a bra, but she can have a scale. You know, I don't get it. So we're also hearing, oh, here comes Bobby Chacon. I knew that wouldn't take long. Go ahead, Bobby. I mean, this so-called family friend that he's being described, I mean, I think he's also been described as a PR professional.

So I think that he might be one of these crisis management guys that's brought in to start this campaign. And they're calling it a campaign as if it's a grassroots movement of people that want her out when in all probability, she is paying for this service. She is paying probably for this family friend, PR professional to kind of start this whole movement, if you will. And I don't think there's a whole bunch of people behind this movement. Well, you know, let me you're right. Number one. Number two, question back to you. And everybody pipe in if you know the answer. I believe that when you have a religious preference behind bars, that

in especially federal jails, that is respected. That's right. So, you know, whether you're Jewish or Muslim. You're right, Nancy. Am I hearing Karen Stark? Yes, you are. Okay, Karen Stark, since when were you in a

CI? Just curious. I just happened to know somebody who was in federal prison who was in federal prison. And they respect your religious beliefs. If you're Orthodox Jewish, then you are allowed to not pay attention to the rules on Saturday. You don't get released. But they do respect that. They respect the fact that you need kosher food, things like that. Which makes it all the more difficult for me to believe that her,

of course, now it's not a religion being vegan. So therein may lay the difference. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, right now, there is a move afoot to get Ghislaine Maxwell released from behind bars. But we've already caught her spokesperson, if that's who started it, in one lie regarding her life behind bars. She is saying that she is being singled out and because of vindictive treatment is being heaped upon her. Back to Melissa Cronin, investigative journalist who has already written one book, Jeffrey Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales, and she has an upcoming book, Epstein Inc.,

coming out, I believe, in November. Melissa, what is at the crux of the movement to get this alleged child sex trafficker out from behind bars? Nancy, it's very important for everyone to understand that, as Dave said, this is not a family friend. This is a PR professional that has been working for Ghislaine for more than 10 years. He was actually brought in as a third party on the Giuffre versus Maxwell lawsuit years ago because the attorney found emails between Ghislaine and the PR company on which he was cc'd. Now, the PR company is called Acuity Reputation, and they have offices in London, also in Moscow. The founder is on the advisory board of the Moscow International

Finance Committee. So that's a whole other thread that people might want to pull on in the coming weeks. But I think it's just a distraction technique. The fact is that day after day, week after week, more victims come forward to tell their stories, and she's not going to be able to escape justice this time. Guys, take a listen to our friend Mola Lenge at CBS News. Listen. She had his money. He had her contacts. They made a great group that way. But Ghislaine was much more conniving and smart than Epstein ever was. At one point during the deposition, Giuffre's attorney, Sigrid McCauley, appeared to ask Maxwell about the now infamous picture of Giuffre and the UK's Prince Andrew.

Giuffre says she had sex with the prince at Maxwell's London home that night. The prince has repeatedly denied Giuffre's allegations, and Maxwell called Giuffre's allegations, and Maxwell called Giuffre's account of the incident an obvious lie. In the deposition, Maxwell said Giuffre characterized things took place in my bathroom, in the bathtub itself. The tub is too small for any type of activity whatsoever. Okay, let me understand this. She is claiming that Virginia Roberts Jeffrey's statements are false because her Gillian Maxwell's tub is not big enough to have sex in. Really? Because I'm pretty sure if people can have sex in the bathroom on a plane, they can do it in a bathtub. I don't care how big

the bathtub or how small the bathtub is. I mean, I'm not an engineer from Georgia Tech or MIT, but I can figure that much out. You know, it's very interesting. Bobby Chacon joining me, former special agent, FBI, screenwriter, Criminal Minds. What my longtime friend, Ricky Kleeman over at CBS is saying, Maxwell can't just say, Virginia Jeffffries is lying lying she's lying you got to come up with more than that and the size of your bathtub because there are multiple young girls not just virginia jeffries that's saying the same thing maxwell recruited them sometimes from near the playground at the middle school, to give Epstein massages, which turned sexual.

It's more than just Virginia Jeffries, Bobby Chacon. That's right, Nancy. And actually, I did attend Georgia Tech, so I'm one of those people you refer to. But, you know, you're right. When they can't attack, you know, the basic facts of the case, when you have so many victims coming forth telling very similar stories about the recruitment and about the behavior that they were subjected to, you have to start nitpicking at different things. That's why they want the names of the victims now

published so they can harass them. This is a very hostile, very aggressive defense team that Maxwell has. You can see it as far back as this deposition that she gave, how hostile she is. And you can see through their motions now how hostile they're being towards the victims. They have to go after the victims because it's the only thing they have because they can't attack the facts. But it's still going to be a very difficult task. Maybe one victim can be impeached. But when you've got multiple victims separated in time and space, all saying the same thing, it's going to be much more difficult to discredit them. Although it happened in the Michael Jackson case, Ann Bremner, all the boy victims were all discredited and they were

generally saying the same thing, Ann Bremner. That's exactly what happened, Nancy. And I saw it front row seat in that trial. You and I covered that every day, and that's exactly what happened. There were multiple victims. They said the same thing. There was definitely a pattern, and it came in with, I don't remember how many boys now, but quite a few, and they were not believed, apparently. Guys, will all the victims be attacked at trial? Will there be a trial? Because right now, Gill and Maxwell supporters are starting a movement to get Gill and Maxwell out of jail. The G-O-O movement. If she gets out to you, Melissa Cronin, investigative journalist, Gill and Maxwell has three passports that I know of. She, I think, has remarried.

All that's being kept under wraps. She has money, power, and privilege at her fingertips and is more than capable of getting a private plane out of here and never coming back. It's true. She's not just capable of finding a private plane. She's capable of flying it herself. She was actually a helicopter pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and buried the victims back and forth from the island. But it's true. She is one of the biggest flight risks that I've ever seen or heard of in my entire journalistic career, because she doesn't just have money and connections herself. Her entire family does. She has seven living siblings and two of them, her sisters, Isabel and Christine,

were actually one of the early founders of one of the first search engines. So they have tons of money. They're millionaires in themselves. She has a French passport. She was born in France. And basically the options are endless for her if she actually gets out of prison. So I think everyone involved in this case knows that that can't happen. You know, Ann Brimner, a high-profile defense attorney out of Seattle, you threw some light at me a few moments ago. I'm going to throw something back at you. So put on your mitt.

When you don't know a horse, look at his track record. Remember how long we played Where's Waldo with Ghislaine Maxwell? First, she was at an In-N-Out Burger in LA. That was staged. Then she was in Paris. Then she was here. Then she was there until she's finally located in a multi-million dollar home, a remote home in New England. So since we already know that she plays hide-and-seek with law enforcement, why would anybody let her out on bond? Well, actually, the statute, Nancy, this is what I don't get. If it's a sex offense involving children under federal law, there's no bail.

That's what happened to Epstein. That's why he was sitting in jail with no bail. But having said that, in terms of her likelihood of flight, you know, the question is when they had a warrant out for her, not a question of where she was before that. So she's in jail now, that's for sure. And she's trying to get out with all these excuses. And maybe they'll work. I don't know. I mean, it's a PR campaign that's pretty pervasive. Guys, we were talking about the fact that Jeffrey Ep it's a PR campaign that's pretty pervasive. Guys, we were talking about the fact that Jeffrey Epstein's so-called madam, i.e. his pimp, is part of a movement now to be released from behind bars. She claims that the jail is not respecting her vegan diet, that she cannot wear clothes she wants to wear, that she has lost weight, and that her scales have been

taken out of her jail cell. Okay, good luck with all of that because that is not going to help you with bond. As a matter of fact, it may bite you in the neck at trial if a jury were to hear any of this. I also have reason to suspect Melissa Cronin, this friend Basham also says that she Max was unable to talk to sisters and their letters are being withheld from her so how did he get in and learn all this I have no idea but I would um I would probably guess that he's working with the sisters and probably they're the ones paying him. And if it is actually true that their letters are being restricted from her, that's good. They should be because anyone involved with this case knows that the sisters were involved in helping keep Ghislaine on the

run. There were photographs of her sisters. I think it was visiting the Massachusetts home where she had been hiding out with her supposed husband, Scott Brogerson. These women are, you know, very mysterious figures in the case. But all of the indications that we've seen suggest that their communications probably should be limited with Colleen. And it's just one of the many things that she's going to have to deal with being in prison. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Gil and Maxwell behind bars in an attempt following the hills, following on the hills of the release of a 400-plus page sworn deposition by Gillen Maxwell. Now, to get her out from behind bars, whoever Basham is, the family friend, I don't think he's a lawyer because Ann Bremner, as you pointed out, he says he finds it, quote, appalling.

Gilliam Maxwell still in custody when other convicted sex offenders such as Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were granted bail. That's because their victims were not children. Their alleged victims were not children, as is in this case. Well, exactly. And that's why I kept thinking this can't be a lawyer getting back to what the statute says, too. If there's child victims, no bail. That's the appropriate decision by a judge at a bond hearing. No bail. So I don't know why he's going off on this other tangent that would never be persuasive, in my opinion, to a judge. And the other part of it is on the flight risk. That was apparently the grounds for which she was held. She's a flight risk. You're right. With all the money, the multiple passports, the connections in multiple

jurisdictions overseas, she is a flight risk. And as Melissa Cronin has pointed out, she knows how to fly a plane. Guys, take a listen again to our friends at CBS News, our cut seven. Ghislaine Maxwell says she knew Jeffrey Epstein was a registered sex offender. When asked if she recruited girls on Epstein's behalf, she said, I don't recruit anybody and appeared disgusted, saying, I resent and despise the word recruit. Throughout the testimony, Maxwell dodged questions about Epstein's alleged abuse of underage girls and repeatedly called Epstein accuser Virginia Giuffre a liar. Maxwell, defending herself, said, I can't think of anything I have done that is illegal.

While being questioned about her initial meeting with Giuffre, Maxwell's anger appeared to boil over and she harshly pounded the table, later apologizing for the behavior. Giuffre alleges Epstein and Maxwell sexually abused her when she was underage and lent her out to their friends. In a July interview with CBS This Morning, Giuffre said Epstein was a sick pedophile, but Maxwell was the mastermind. She is even worse than Epstein. She, she, put it this way, Epstein was Pinocchio and she was Gisbetto. Pulling the strings? Yep, she was pulling the strings. You're hearing the alleged victim, Virginia Roberts Jeffries, speaking out.

Now, it's interesting to me that Karen Stark, she says she knew Jeffrey Epstein was a registered sex offender, but still continued to hang out with him and denies recruiting anyone. How will that stack up in court when multiple girl victims claim that she was the one that connected them with Epstein? I can't imagine, Nancy, that that will hold up in court at all. Think about the fact that she's questioning the word recruit. Okay, let's say she groomed them because she did. She entertained them. She took them to the movies. She talked to them about sex.

She got them prepared for him. She'd take off her clothes to be with them. So, yes, she's right. It was more than recruiting. She groomed them to be with him. Take a listen now to Adrienne Bankert at ABC GMA. Do you recall any kind of sexual contact with Virginia Roberts then or any other time? None whatsoever. In the deposition, Maxwell repeatedly claims Giuffre is lying about her. She calls Giuffre an exaggerator, a fantasist,

and an absolutely true terrible person. Maxwell also claims not to remember this photograph, appearing to show the three of them together, which Giuffre says was taken in 2001 at Maxwell's London home. Prince Andrew has previously said that he has no recollection of the picture being taken and can't be sure if it's real or fake. Barry Levine, author of The Spider, inside the criminal web of Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell has been investigating the allegations at the heart of these cases and says Epstein needed the help of someone like Maxwell to earn the trust of his alleged victims. It really became a symbiotic coupling in the sense that they were able to present themselves, particularly to young women and their families,

in the sense that they appeared as a loving young couple. You know, it's very interesting hearing Barry Levine describing that. He's the author of The Spider. Because to you, Melissa Cronin, author of Jeffrey Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales, and upcoming book, Epstein, Inc., we see the same thing happening in the Harvey Weinstein case, where his receptionist or his female assistant would put his rape victims, his sex assault victims, at ease, bring them in, show them into Weinstein's office,

set up the appointment and so forth, and seemingly put a facade of respectability on what would turn out to be a crime scene. Melissa? Yes, Nancy. I worked with Barry Levine for many years, and he's so right that this is just the M.O MO of so many sex criminals over the years, as I'm sure you've seen and covered in many, many cases. And it's one of the most just sickening things about the entire case that not only did Epstein and Ghislaine target girls who were vulnerable to this kind of predation, girls who were homeless or had bad relationships with their parents, were not doing well in school. In comes this woman, Ghislaine

Maxwell, you know, hoity-toity accent, beautiful couture clothes, offering them a chance at another life. Of course, they were just seduced by her glamour and kind of the life that she laid out for them. And they had no idea what she was really bringing them into. And it's just so sickening. It makes the hairs on my neck stand up to think about the way that she targeted them. You know, Bobby Chacon, a former special agent with the FBI, screenwriter for Criminal Minds. I just got thrown back in time to the first case, and we didn't call it this at the time, but of grooming.

And my first case where I argued that to a jury was about a developmentally disabled little boy who his mom did everything she could to advance him in life, as we all do with our children. The thing he loved to do was go to video arcades and play videos, the games, and the mom would give him quarters to go play. And his mind could understand the games, and that was fun to him. The guy that was anally raping him and molesting him, to see him, many people, not me, but many

people thought he was attractive, he had a great job, he had a wife, a family, and he would give the little boy, who couldn't understand a lot, couldn't communicate a lot, rolls of quarters in exchange for raping the little boy. And one day the mom found either a $10 or $20 bill in the boy's pocket, and she knew something was horribly wrong, because he had no way. This developmentally disabled little boy had no way of getting a crisp $10 bill. So she knew something was wrong and then found blood in his underwear. Those were some of the shocking facts in that case. In this case, it's alleged Gill and Maxwell lured and groomed

these girl victims in a very different way, but it's all the same thing. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we're talking about Gill and Maxwell and an attempt to get her out from behind prison walls to Bobby Chacon. The luring, the grooming of these girls, as you heard Melissa Cronin describe, weigh in. Yeah, Nancy, you're exactly right. I mean, what we have found in these predators and these groomers, they have this evil innate ability to look at a crowd of children,

say, if that's who their victim pool is, and they can pick out the ones that are most vulnerable. They just have that instinct, whether it's cultural, whether it's financial, whether it's psychological, if it's a developmentally challenged person, whether it's financial, as in possibly this case, they know the vulnerabilities of their potential victims. They have that innate sense. A child predator can scan a playground of kids, and within minutes, he knows which kid, be it by body language or how they're interacting with the other children, they know which one to target.

And that's part of the vulnerability of the victim that they somehow pick up on and they go after. And whether it's like in this case financial, where these are poor kids that are being lured by the richness of the predator or whatever it is, they have that ability to focus in on the vulnerability of the victim and then exploit that vulnerability. You know, I compare it, Bobby Chacon, to a predator out on the savannah where the, let me just say, gazelles come to drink. Somehow, I don't know that they even go through a sequenced thought process, they somehow instinctively pick the weakest gazelle. They just have to outrun one gazelle, the weakest one. And I believe that is how predators pick their child's sex victim.

Isn't it true, Melissa Cronin, investigative reporter and author of Jeffrey Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales, an upcoming book, Epstein, Inc. Explain how these young girls were allegedly groomed and lured into sex with Epstein or sex acts? Grooming is exactly what happened. And each girl kind of experienced a different type of grooming, I guess, depending on her particular vulnerabilities. So, for example, we saw in the 2006 case when they were able to get documents from Epstein's home that showed that he had sent one teenage girl a bouquet of roses after her performance at a school recital.

For another girl, he had arranged for her to get a rental car because she had no car. And for Virginia Roberts Giuffre, Ghislaine Maxwell met her at the Mar-a-Lago Spa and basically, she alleges, offered her a job as a private masseuse for this mysterious billionaire, Jeffrey Epstein. And for Virginia, who was working, you know, just part-time and didn't really have a future ahead of her that she could see. This was like a major upgrade in her life. So they really kind of looked at these girls like Bobby was describing and like you were describing and highlighted, honed in on their vulnerabilities and offered them exactly what they thought would kind of lure them in and seduce them in. And that's, that's what's, you know, the most disturbing of all of it.

Of course, this case has implications that reach across the ocean. I'm referring specifically to Prince Andrew, who's probably kicked back having a cup of tea at Buckingham Palace right now. Take a listen to this. After months of fighting to keep depositions sealed, this morning, newly unsealed testimony gives a glimpse of what Ghislaine Maxwell said under oath in 2016, repeatedly denying any knowledge or participation in convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein's alleged sexual abuse of teenage girls. In a contentious deposition made public Thursday under court order, Maxwell, Epstein's one-time girlfriend and socialite who had been accused of finding and grooming girls for him in the years before he died by suicide in jail in August 2019, has testified, I never saw

any inappropriate underage activities with Jeffrey ever. The redacted transcript stems from a 2015 defamation case brought by Virginia Roberts Giuffre, who in court filings accuses Maxwell and Epstein of directing her to have sex with prominent men, including Prince Andrew, when she was a minor. You are hearing our friend Adrienne Bankert at ABC's GMA. Of course, in that deposition, we see where she is asked about Prince Andrew, and we see that Gillian Maxwell skirted all the questions about Virginia Robert Jeffrey's claim Andrew had used kind of a hand puppet to grope her in Epstein's New York home. Also, you know, this reminds me so much, Ann Bremner, of rape cases, and I'll tell you why. Remember way back when, when we didn't always have DNA we could rely on? First of all, in a rape case, the defendant would say,

I've never seen her in my life. Then you'd find a witness that says, oh, well, so-and-so Jackie places the two of you at a bar that night. He goes, huh, bar. Oh, wait a minute. Is she the girl that came on to me at the bar? Yeah, we had a beer together, but that's it. And then he says, I left the bar. She was still sitting there getting drunk. All right. Then you have, oh, well, the guy at the parking lot, he has a video of the two of you walking to her car. He goes, oh, well, yeah, yeah. Now that you say that, I remember walking her to a car.

And then it goes on that, okay, then the video shows you getting in the car with her. Well, I may have, you know, helped her to her car and gotten in and talked for a few moments now that you tell me that. Well, then you find that there is evidence. The defendant's hair in the back seat of the car. Finally, it gets down to, okay, yeah, you know what, now that you remind me, I think she did come on to me and we did have sex in her car. You know, like how trashy is she? So it's her word now against his that there was ever any sex activity whatsoever. Then you get the bruises, then you get the marks on her neck,

then you get the torn clothing to make your case. Here, we're going to see the same thing regarding Prince Andrew. It never happened. Okay. Maybe they were at the same party because apparently in the deposition, she's shown this same photo. It's got Virginia Jeffries with Prince Andrew's hand wrapped around her. Freaky. He's old enough to be her at least father. And then you got Gillian Maxwell beaming in the background. I think it's her home. And she's like, yeah, that looks kind of familiar.

I mean, so now we're getting evidence, and she's having to shift and change the story to go with the hard evidence. I mean, now you got Andrew claiming that it was doctored, that that's not his hand. Right. And his friends have come out and said it was doctored. There's a picture of him at Epstein's house in Manhattan kind of saying goodbye to one of the girls through a partially open doorway. I mean, this evidence keeps piling up. And the fact of the matter is, you know, with her, at least, she's not going to admit anything

unless, as you say, she's given a photograph or something else. But basically like, well, I don't remember. I don't know. You know, et cetera, about Prince Andrew. I've always said about him that there could be an extradition. I mean, the fact is, is there's evidence against him just like there is against others. Why is he sitting in Buckingham Palace sipping tea or riding his horse with the queen? I mean, why? Yeah, why is he sitting in Buckingham Palace sipping tea or riding his horse with the queen? You know, why?

Yeah, why? You know, there's another issue I found very interesting in the release of this deposition. I don't know if you noticed this or not. Melissa Cronin, investigative journalist and author, Jeffrey Epstein, Dead Men Tell No Tales, followed up by Epstein, Inc. There was a lot of redaction, which I've had to personally go through hundreds and hundreds of pages of statements to redact names for many different legal reasons. They redacted names like Prince Andrew and other high-profile men, but they left, somehow

they left the names of four underage victims in the documents. How'd that happen? That is one of the first things that I noticed too, Nancy, and it just made me yet again, curious about this case, because it's true. There are so many instances throughout the entire document where they redacted names that are completely obvious to anyone who's covered this case at all. And that is like you said, Andrew, there's areas where it's clear that she's referring to the Clinton, so on Hillary Clinton and other high profile, a list males that were completely redacted, you know, they went through more than 400 pages and made sure that Prince Andrew wasn't mentioned, but somehow they missed the names of four under age.

And it's just ridiculous because it shows yet again, throughout the whole entire case, how the men who are alleged to have committed these acts are being protected at every single turn and the women are being thrown to the wolves. And just as an illustration of that, there was a photo of Prince Andrew released after this deposition came out, and he's driving around in the countryside in his Range Rover. He's not at all bothered by what's happening, and meanwhile these women are being victimized over and over again. It just hurts me that the most vulnerable in our society

are still being taken advantage of. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace Crime Story signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.