Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Accused Killer, Vegas Politician Robert Telles: "I'M BEING FRAMED"

Episode Date: March 4, 2023

The former public official charged in the death of  Las Vegas Review-Journal Investigative Reporter Jeff German now says he's being framed. Robert Telles called KLAS-TV asking for an interview to make his claims.   German was found stabbed dead outside his home. Days later, cops release surveillance video of a possible suspect in a wide-brimmed straw hat, an orange safety shirt, and black pants walking near the scene. More investigation revealed that German's reporting put him at odds with Telles. German reported that Telles created a toxic work environment and was having an extra-marital affair with an employee. These claims seem to have cost Telles his re-election bid. Investigators searched Robert Telles' home, towing a red SUV, and finding shoes with apparent blood on them. A straw hat matching the one shown in the video was also found. Both articles had been cut up in an effort to destroy evidence, but DNA under German's fingernails told police everything they needed to know.  Joining Nancy Grace Today: Matthew Mangino - Attorney, Former District Attorney (Lawrence County), Former Parole Board Member, Author: "The Executioner's Toll: The Crimes, Arrests, Trials, Appeals, Last Meals, Final Words and Executions of 46 Persons in the United States", MattMangino.com, Twitter: @MatthewTMangino Caryn Stark - NYC Psychologist, CarynStark.com, Twitter: @carynpsych, Facebook: "Caryn Stark"   Lisa M. Dadio - Former Police Lieutenant, New Haven Police Department, Annie Le Lead Detective, Senior Lecturer, Director of the Center for Advanced Policing and Graduate Program Coordinator, Investigations program, University of New Haven (West Haven, CT) Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department, Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide", Forensic Consultant, DMichelleDupreMD.com  Vanessa Murphy - Investigative Reporter, KLAS-TV 8newsnow.com, Instagram: @vanessareporting, Twitter: @Vanessa_Murphy, Facebook: "VanessaMurphyInvestigates" Dr. Kristen Mittelman - Chief Development Officer, Othram Inc., DNAsolves.com, Twitter: @OthramTech  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. No wonder nobody likes politicians. I'm sure you all remember the Vegas lawmaker accused of stabbing a veteran journalist dead because the journalist uncovered his affair. I mean, who couldn't uncover it? Apparently, he was having sex with some woman in the car in a parking deck, a public parking deck, and they would both get out of the car and rearrange their clothes.

I mean, anybody could figure that out. But that said, now he's actually claiming he was framed. Does it never end? Question, answer, no. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. Speaking from the Clark County Detention Center, he claims he was framed for the murder of Vegas Review Journal journalist Jeff Gehrman, a well-liked and veteran journalist in the area. Now, believe it or not, this guy, Robert Tellis, the politician, says the evidence, including his DNA found on the dead reporter and the suspect's outfit recovered in his home, were all planted. Okay, OJ Simpson, it worked once. Tell us. I don't think it's going to work for you, but okay. He claims he's being framed because he was working to expose a scam in the

county where people were claiming properties of the deceased. If anybody was working a scam, according to prosecutors, it was him, Robert Tellis. For those of you just joining us, a former Las Vegas lawmaker stands accused of savagely killing a reporter and is now claiming he was framed and that all the evidence was planted at the scene. Okay, for those of you that don't remember, this reporter had written about an alleged affair Tellis had with a staffer when he served as the Clark County Public Administrator. Now, according to German, he had pictures of their messages and they were

set to be released just hours before the murder. Emails, alleged emails between the two lovers and text messages. Now, let me tell you about the so-called planted evidence. When police search the county administrator Tellis' home, they find bloody shoes and a cut-up straw hat. Now, why do we care about a straw hat? Because this hat was similar to one seen on the suspected killer in surveillance footage. Tellus' car, which was a red GMC, was also found to match the vehicle seen on surveillance video. Reporters also stalked his home and found him washing his car immediately after the murders. Why is it that after a murder, men turn into neatniks?

Oh, they love to wash and mop and clean and bleach, buy products, cleaning products at Home Depot and Target and Walmart, all to be caught on camera. Of course, I just love it. Now, Tellus was arrested

after DNA evidence was found under German's fingernails, allegedly matching Tellus's, the county administrator. Now, I love this part. When Tellus was arrested, he reportedly had self-inflicted cuts on his arm. Now, an arrest report that we got our mitts on shows that he, tell us, barricaded himself inside his home, threatened suicide, and slashed his arms with a knife when SWAT tried to arrest him. Okay. He was also suspected of taking drugs in moments before he was handcuffed, which forced the cops to take him to the hospital before he could be booked in the county jail. Prosecutors accused the county administrator, Tellus, of, quote, lying in wait to kill the reporter, German, who had extensively covered the turmoil and the chaos within Tellus' office,

including an alleged affair with the woman that worked for him. His affair was revealed after German published a video of him. I've seen the video. It's pretty good watching. German published a video of Tellus exiting a vehicle with his alleged lover. Now, he's actually claiming he was framed. Listen to KLAS-TV. Robert Tellis claims he was framed, but as we first reported, police say they have a DNA match as well as other evidence tying him to the scene of the murder. And you just say that I'm innocent?

Charged with murder and locked up for five months, Robert Tellis requesting an interview with 8 News Now to give his side of the story. Did you kill Jeff Gehrman? No, I did not. I don't have proof of who did it, but I know who gained or who would getting from framing me. Tellus claims as the public administrator he was working to expose a scam involving estates where individuals were moving in fast to profit off property before families of the deceased could. The 8 News Now investigators confirming authorities are looking into the matter but as far as the separate criminal case against Tellis, police

point to evidence like Tellis' DNA under Gehrman's fingernails. Okay, how'd this whole thing unfold? Joining me, an all-star panel of experts to make sense of what we know right now, but first I'm going to go to Vanessa Murphy, high-profile investigative reporter with KLAS-TV, 8newsnow.com. And you can find her on Facebook at Vanessa Murphy Investigates. Vanessa, thank you for being with us. Tell me about the area where Geerman was stabbed. The area where he was stabbed, this is the Northwest Valley in the Las Vegas area. Again, this was outside his home, a quiet neighborhood. We do know there were burglaries in the area. But again, for the most part, a quiet neighborhood, the Northwest Valley. And it's just those quiet, beautiful neighborhoods where burglars think they're going to make a big heist.

Just imagining there, the neighborhood you're telling me about in the Northwest Valley. Because Vanessa Murphy, I've been to Vegas many, many, many times. And I'm not even a gambler. And I somehow ended up in these gorgeous neighborhoods. Of course, it's in the middle of a desert, and so the yards are not lawns, like big green rolling lawns. They're carefully curated and created like Japanese-looking gardens. And the time and effort to make these homes beautiful is incredible. And like you said, they're beautiful homes where you would never think crime would intrude.

But this victim, Jeff Geerman, he was basically scrubbed in sunshine. He had never done a wrong thing in his life and had dedicated his life to journalism. What do we know about him? Why him? Tell me about him. So Jeff Gehrman, longtime Las Vegas reporter, was originally at another newspaper here,

then went to the Review Journal for at least the past decade. Well respected. I know his colleagues, they had nothing bad to say about him, just a tenacious reporter. And, you know, as an investigative journalist, oftentimes we are uncovering truths that people do not want to be uncovered. And he was doing that on a regular basis. But that's part of the job. And I think it's interesting that his colleagues say that he never felt like he was in immediate danger at the time. Of course, motive. Why this journalist? Very well respected. Why him? Does the burglar care whether he's burgling a millionaire or a nun, a priest, a virgin,

or a well-respected journalist? They don't care. The state doesn't have to prove motive, but listen to our friends at Fox 5 the search is on for a suspect in the stabbing death of an investigative journalist police say the man in this picture stabbed and killed a newspaper reporter Jeff Gehrman in front of his home in Summerlin in the neighborhood near Tanea and Vegas Drive on Saturday morning they believe that suspect may have been staking out Gehrman's home for a burglary before the altercation. In a statement, the Review Journal tells Fox 5 he will be terribly missed by his family and colleagues and we are all still in shock over his senseless killing.

They say that he never communicated any concerns about his personal safety. He was known for his stories about political scandals and coverage of the one October mass shooting. He was also the author of a 2001 true crime book, Murder in Sin City, The Death of a Las Vegas Casino Boss. Straight out to Lisa Daddio joining us, former police lieutenant with New Haven PD and now the director of the Center for Advanced Policing at University New Haven.

Lisa, thank you for being with us. Okay, can we just talk about burglars for just one moment? You know, I believe, Lisa, that there are certain defendants, criminals that cannot be rehabilitated. Child molesters, sex offenders in general, peeping toms, believe it or not, and burglars. Burglars, because the way a rapist rapes, not for sex, it's for power and control, out of anger, hatred. A burglar very often likes the thrill of going in somebody else's home it's not always to steal

the tv or the electronics or the engagement ring it's being in somebody else's home and walking around you know eating food out of their fridge bouncing on the bed looking at all their stuff. It's freaky. One thing about burglars, they usually, if they see somebody's home, will leave, much less continue the burglary with the person standing out in the front yard. Absolutely, Nancy. And that's statistically, I'm going to say probably 90 plus percent accurate, everything that you had stated. They don't want to be caught by the homeowner.

You know, there are those few, they're called cat burglars that get the thrill from breaking in at night when people are home. And that's a whole different psychological. But the majority of burglars don't want to confront anyone in the home. And they want to go in and get their thrill. And if they take things they do and if they don't, like you stated, they don't. But they're not going to intentionally burglarize somebody's home and confront them in the middle of the day. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace In the last days, a long time Las Vegas lawmaker, the county administrator, his name is Tellus, Robert Tellis, he stands accused of stabbing a reporter dead because the reporter allegedly outed his alleged affair with a staffer within his office. Okay, just before a lot of

seemingly damning texts and emails were about to be made public. The reporter, Jeff Gehrman, is murdered. Well, in the last days, just wait for a politician to do it or a celebrity. He now claims he was framed. Okay, I guess we're all in it together. I can't wait to hear his explanation of how his DNA is under the victim's fingernails. Listen to Vanessa Murphy, high profile investigative reporter with KLAS-TV. How do you explain your vehicle near his home?

How do you explain the video of an individual who appears to be you? How do you explain the clothing that was at your house? How do you explain the DNA? As far as the vehicle goes, there's a vehicle that looks like mine. As far as any other evidence goes, again, as far as what time it may have been planted, I couldn't say. You know, again, I know it's an incredible story, but that is the story. It could appear that you're grasping at straws here because you know about the evidence against you.

Again, if that's what people want to believe, then they can. But again, I'm telling you the truth. What would you say to people who believe that you are a narcissist who killed a journalist and now you're coming up with another excuse? Again, you know, at this point, I'm coming out with the truth because I've had to sit and wait for some time to speak out just because my counsel had advised that I shouldn't say anything whatsoever. This thing is kind of complicated. Let's just start at the beginning. Take a listen to our friend Sean Delancey, KTNV. Days after respected investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman was stabbed to death outside of his own home, police are still searching for the person responsible. Police say the suspect was likely

casing the area to commit crimes before confronting Gehrman. Everyone in our unit's been working nonstop. Captain Dory Corrin released this video, asking people to pay close attention to the way the suspected killer walks and the clothing. In addition, police released this vehicle related to the crime, a maroon GMC Yukon Denali with chrome handles. Straight back out to investigative reporter joining us from Vegas, Vanessa Murphy. What was unusual, if anything, about the dress of the killer?

So this individual was wearing a straw hat. He was also wearing bright orange. So typically we don't see burglars wear bright orange, right? And a big straw hat drawing attention to themselves. So those were two things that really stood out. Vanessa, where did we get the video of this guy in a straw hat and an orange vest? Well, police went door to door right after they made this discovery of Mr. Gehrman's body. They went door to door and, you know, many people have ring doorbells. They have nest cameras with that surveillance video. So what they did was they pieced together any footage they had from that neighborhood. You know, another case where that happened, and I'm going to go to you again, Lisa Daddio,

former police lieutenant, is in the missing mother of five, Jennifer Dulos. And I am amazed at what the police did in that case regarding video. They got the husband, such as he is, Fotis Dulos, all that day. And they have pieced together video of him at red light cams, at cams off businesses, ring doorbell cams, neighborhood cams, surveillance video cams of businesses. They even have him going by in his car when a public bus opened its door, and there's a cam in the bus, and it sees Fotis Dulos dashing by in his car, culminating in Fotis Dulos, the killer, at an auto detailing place, having the vehicle he used to transport her dead body detailed and cleaned.

I mean, it goes from A to Z. It's incredible. And explain to me, Lisa Daddio, I'm sure you've seen this photo. It's unlike anything I've ever seen. You know, when you see, for instance, To Catch a Thief, or you see some James Bond video, James Bond movie, the burglar's always dressed in black, and they've got their face darkened, and they're wearing a black hat, and you know, like a skull cap. It's not not always like that but it sure ain't like this i mean this guy has got on a bright yellow shirt with reflectors on it on the sleeves

he's got on a bright orange vest over that like a person that would be conducting traffic out in the middle of the street you want to make sure you're seen with reflectors on it. He's wearing, I can only describe it as a beach hat, a straw beach hat that comes down like a top hat. A top hat like the man of the Monopoly game that sticks way up and then fans down like a bowl wearing a black satchel and white running shoes. I mean, it's quite the get up, Lisa Daddio. I mean, if I was going to burgle something, I put on my dark ninja clothes and completely cover my face and my head. What is this? You're trying to fit into the neighborhood right so that nobody who's out and about is going to even think anything twice you

think this fits in the neighborhood yeah it's like my god it was bizarre you think this outfit fits into the journalist upscale neighborhood like people are going to say him and go oh yeah he lives around the corner yeah no if anything it's drawing attention to himself well nancy well let me guess you're going to say he's dressed up like a day laborer yeah we have a lot of construction going on and there was a series of uh we have a lot of construction going on and there was a burglar who actually was dressed uh similarly in a hat like that caught on video at a restaurant. So there's two possibilities. There you go.

Okay. Okay, Vanessa. Okay. But if I were sneaking around trying to burgle a home, it would not be wearing this getup. I'm just putting that out there. And I know defense attorney Matthew Mangino joining me, former prosecutor in Lawrence County, former parole board member, author of The Executioner's Toll at MatthewMangino.com. It goes on and on.

Mangino, I know you'll say, oh, this means nothing. Uh-uh. It means a lot to me, and I guarantee you it will mean a lot to a jury. Well, yes, Nancy, the thing that I would think is that prosecutors wouldn't want to put blinders on or investigators wouldn't want to put blinders on. I think they would want to keep an open mind about this investigation. Certainly, you know, the first idea is that is this a burglary that that that, you know, has gone awry and someone ends up dead. But but when I look at that photograph, I think of someone who wants to disguise themselves, someone who might be recognizable, who's trying to disguise themselves in that area. And so then as you keep an open mind as an investigator, I think you have to look at all different things.

You have to look at your victim. You know, who would want to hurt this person? Is there someone out there who would want to harm them? Or maybe multiple people who want to harm them. Does he have enemies? Does he have people who don't like him? You know what, though, Matthew Mangino, that is, you know, kind of cliche. I mean, if you watch anything from, I guess, Special Victims Unit all the way

back to Columbo, they always say, who would want to kill your husband? And the wife always says, nobody. I mean, that's a little cliche, especially when police have announced they believe a burglary was going down. All I'm saying, Karen Stark, Karen Stark, New York psychologist joining us out of Manhattan at karenstark.com, Karen with a C.

Karen, if I were going to burgle a place, it would not be wearing a giant straw hat and a day glow orange vest. Well, to me, it says quite clearly, Nancy, that this is somebody who doesn't know what they're doing, who is an amateur and hasn't really thought this out at all. Because it's apparent that everything that you're wearing is calling attention to yourself. And I'm trying to put my mind inside the mind of this person and saying, what could he have been thinking? And maybe he thought that he had to be so outrageous that nobody would really. I know he might as well have worn a prom dress and a tiara. But back to you, Vanessa Murphy, joining us, KLAS-TV.

We also know that police have been tracking a series of burglaries in the valley where the suspect did wear similar clothing as outlandish as I think it looks. Question to you, Vanessa. Had that been broadcast on TV that the suspect in that series of burglaries had been dressed like this? There was video of a restaurant being burglarized and the suspect was wearing that straw hat. We did play that video on the news. So that was out there. And in fact, you could see on the social media comments when the police released this image you know viewers were putting the two and two together hey that looks like the guy who was burglarizing the restaurant so as vanessa murphy klas says in the residents in vegas mind

the murder of the investigative journalist jeff Gehrman was clearly linked to the series of burglaries. While that connection is being made, an autopsy is being performed on Gehrman's body. Joining me right now, renowned pathologist, medical examiner, detective, and author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, Dr. Michelle Dupree. Dr. Dupree, thank you for being with us. Could you describe what happened to Gehrman? What death did he suffer? Did he have time to see his killer? Nancy, he most likely did have time to see his killer. He was stabbed, as I understand it, seven different times. And stabbing is a very personal crime.

You have to get hands on. It's not like standing across the room and shooting a gun. This is up close and very personal. So, yes, I think he did see his stabber. And what would he have endured? Seven stab wounds, at least one of them deadly. He obviously would have been fighting for his life. He would have been probably fighting back some way, perhaps hitting that person, scratching that person,

just fighting for his life. Imagine dying out in front of your house on what seemed to be an ordinary day for you that suddenly turned anything but. Well, no connections are being made to a string of burglaries. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 5. It is troublesome because it is a journalist and we expect journalism to be open and transparent and a watchdog for government. And when people take it upon themselves to create harm associated with that profession,

I think it's very important that we put all eyes on and address the case appropriately. Gehrman has published several investigative reports, allegations of bullying and favoritism. You know, I'm curious, Karen Stark, it's hard to imagine someone willing to commit a murder over a bad newspaper article? Well, when you think about somebody who's capable of murder, Nancy, they're not illogical. They're hypersensitive. Their ego, they're all about their ego.

And here's somebody who's not, it's not just a newspaper article. It has to do with their reputation and how the public perceives them. And that kind of a person, they're not going to hesitate to think about the worst thing they could possibly do to get revenge because they're all about revenge. You know, Matthew Mangino, joining me, high-profile lawyer and author. Matthew, very often I've heard defense attorneys argue, what? He's going to kill his wife? He could have just gotten a divorce. Killers don't think that way. They don't think rationally. So while we're digging around for a motive in Gehrman's murder, a very brutal murder, the state doesn't have to prove motive. I've seen murders over a $5 debt before. So that doesn't make sense to anybody else.

But it made sense to the killer, right? Yeah, there is no obligation on the state's part to prove a motive in a murder. Although jurors like to hear that there's a motive. They feel more comfortable making a decision when they know that there was some motive, there was some reason for this person to act the way that they did. But, you know, here, you know, all options have to be open in terms of, you know, how Gehrman died and why Gehrman died. You're right. And you're also right about juries. Matthew Mangino, Matthew Mangino, former prosecutor, now defense attorney, author, former parole board member.

The state doesn't have to prove a motive legally, but when you say a jury wants to hear a motive, they do. They want a neat explanation or else they will go back in the jury room and argue till they're blue in the face about why would he have committed this murder? Because they, the jurors, wouldn't do it because they're reasonable thinking people unlike a killer. And it's hard to apply logic to an illogical situation like a murder. So you better give them a motive, Matthew Mangino. You're right. So now the police are departing from their initial belief that this was a part of a series of burglaries.

As Vanessa pointed out, there was a restaurant burglary, and according to the police chief, there was a series of burglaries where the burglar wore much of the same getup, this outlandish outfit, and it was put online and on TV. Hence, this killer dresses the same way. The investigation knuckles down as the mystery intensifies. Take a listen to our friend Mark Strassman. TELUS had been the subject of a newspaper investigation spearheaded by Gehrman in May, describing allegations of emotional stress, bullying, and favoritism in the public administrator's office. That story included further allegations that Tellis had an inappropriate relationship with one of his staffers, purportedly seen in this video.

He disputed the claims in an interview with Gehrman, accusing others of trying to sabotage his office. I am about nothing but justice, fairness, and just being a good person. Okay, wait a minute. You're hearing this guy who's under journalistic investigation for bullying. Let's see what else. Favoritism, emotional stress. You can't have favoritism in a public office.

This is the public administrator's office. And then the investigator, who is now dead, pulls up a video of what looks to be a sex affair. Okay, what about it, Vanessa Murphy? What is the video that Gehrman pulled up? In this video, we see a car parked in, I believe, a mall parking garage. And it appears that the Clark County Public Administrator, Robert Tellis, is in the back seat with one of his employees. They are back there. We see some movement. He gets out of the right side. She gets out of the left, sort of pulls her skirt down a little bit. oh wow and it's a maroon suv ouch oh and i can see the license tag too i'm still looking i'm still looking i'm waiting for something to happen tell us and this says lee connect have denied allegations they had an inappropriate relationship this video was shot recently and was obtained by the review journal isn't that where uh Gehrman works, the Review Journal?

Yes, that is where Gehrman works. I know that the vehicle looks similar, but I don't think it was that maroon SUV. I'm glad you told me that. Okay, I'm waiting. I'm seeing more movement. I can't tell front seat or back seat. Did you say back seat? I believe they're in the back seat.

Oh, the back seat. And you're in the back seat oh the back seat and you're right oh there comes tell us you can't mistake that no that is tell us I would recognize that head anywhere oh oh okay yeah you're right it's the back seat because she's coming out of the back seat there oh there she is oh yep she hitched her dress down and now she's getting into the front seat and what's going to happen now I'm waiting waiting waiting she's in the front seat he's out of view who took this video Vanessa Murphy I believe it was employees of Clark County. Uh-oh.

Well, good on them. Now the lights are on. She slammed the door shut, and she's leaving. Well, they're denying an inappropriate relationship. I'd like to know what they were doing wrestling in the back seat of this SUV in a parking garage. That said, I'm a little more concerned about the murder. What can you tell me about claims of bullying now that we've got off the sort of not having sex in the backseat incident? What can you tell me about claims of bullying and favoritism in the public administrator's

office? Well, Robert Tellez sort of started on this is an office with a history of problems and he would come in and help clean it up. And what employees told the Review Journal is that did not happen. And it seems that issues continued and he was he's their boss and sort of bullied employees and made things even worse. You know, anybody jump in as I've already admonished you, we're not having high tea at Highgrove with King Charles. Nancy. Is that Karen Stark? Jump in, Karen, because, you know, bullying in a public office, not having sex in the backseat of the SUV. Oh, I know what I wanted to ask you. Have you ever heard people go, I'm not stupid?

Translation, I'm really stupid. Did you hear him earlier saying, I'm all about justice and fairness? Translation, you got me. I did it. Yeah, that's's that that he's overreacting and i can't tell you the kind of response somebody who has his personality who's capable of murder how he would respond to being publicly humiliated and shamed like that. It's unacceptable. Here's another thing. Is he married, Vanessa Murphy? He is married with three children.

You know, I'd like to say I'm surprised, but take a listen to our friends in Hour Cut 15. This is Chip Yost at KTLA. The evidence that Clark County's elected public administrator Robert Tellis is the person who dressed up in this disguise to murder investigative reporter Jeff Gehrman of the Las Vegas Review-Journal is growing. Gehrman was found stabbed to death outside his home last week, but in court the prosecutor suggested Gehrman didn't go down without a fight as DNA was found under the dead man's fingernails. The DNA recovered from the victim's hands under his fingernails. They do identify the DNA of the defendants.

You know, I don't really care about his not a sex affair in the backseat in the parking garage. I don't care about politics. In fact, I hate politics. I do care about DNA. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. crime stories with nancy grace for those of you just joining us a vegas lawmaker the county administrator was allegedly having an affair with a staffer oh second verse same as the first when does it ever end but a reporter found out And just before the reporter could release a lot of inflammatory evidence, he ends up being murdered. Gee, who did that?

Facing a long-term jail sentence, Vegas lawmaker now claims damning evidence against him found in his place was all planted. Owie. Who else would cut up a, let me just say, distinctive straw hat? So I guess the cops stayed up all night planting blood on those shoes. And DNA under the dead victim's fingernails. Guess whose DNA? Tell us's.

Dr. Kristen Mettleman, the Chief Development Officer of Othram, Inc. And you can find her at DNAsolves.com. All the rest, while it is circumstantial evidence, which is equally as probative or proving, which probative means, as direct evidence, which is equally as probative or proving, as probative means, as direct evidence, I would not kick a little direct evidence in the teeth. I'm talking about DNA. DNA under the dead victim's fingernails.

Explain. Absolutely. spline? Yeah, absolutely. So the DNA was found underneath the victim's fingernails and the DNA was a match to the perpetrator. And so at that point, you can see very clearly that beyond any reasonable doubt, the person was there and somehow his dna was under the fingernail there was also dna found on the victim's dna found on the shoes of the perpetrator and so you can see that there was exchange of dna in both directions from that crime scene and i think that without a shadow of a doubt that shows that um it confirms all of the other evidence and may or may not be probative and may be circumstantial, as you said.

To Dr. Michelle Dupree, author of Homicide Investigation Field Guide, have you ever heard the phrase training on the job? Absolutely, Nancy. And we see it and we do it all the time. You know, Dr. Dupree, I wanted to ask you this specific thing.

I'll just immediately flash back to my very first murder case. And before I went to the morgue to cross-examine the medical examiner to get myself, I thought I was preparing him. I was really preparing myself to put him on the stand. I was looking at crime scene photos, and I saw paper bags over the victim's hands with a rubber band at the wrist. I thought, wow, they're paper bags on the victim's hands. Then I found out.

Explain. Absolutely, Nancy. In any type of a personal crime like this, we always try to bag the victim's hands with paper bags, not plastic, but paper bags so that we can catch any evidence that might fall off, any trace evidence, hairs, fibers, anything like that that might fall off during transport of that patient. And one of the things that we do in cases like this is we always scrape the fingernails. You'd be surprised how many times we do find those epithelial cells or those skin cells under the fingernails, which point to the suspect.

And then, of course, you want to get a shot shot if the arrest is in time of the defendant's body to see if there are scratches about the neck or face or arms or really anywhere that would match up to fingernails. They look like a furrow or where you're planting something out in a field lines. You can tell their fingernail scratches. Another thing about this, Dr. Kristen Middleman joining us, Chief Development Officer at Authram Inc. When you say there's a match, you make it sound so simple, but could you talk about the statistical likelihoods that you have seen in other cases that the killer is anyone other than the defendant so usually with str testing there's not enough people on earth for it to be anyone else so it would be one and some sort of quintillion or something that some number that is so high that there's not enough people on earth

or if the strs match which is a testing that was done here using DNA analysis, then there would not be enough people on Earth for it to be someone else. So on many DNA, deoxyribonucleic acid reports I've seen, the match, as you so simply refer to it as, is something like statistically, statistically, scientifically, there is a one in five trillion chance it's not this guy. One in five trillion. In other words, it's him.

That DNA under his fingernails, under the victim's fingernails, and the DNA on the defendant's shoes. Lisa Daddio joining us. Lisa, why is it the defendants always forget about their shoes? Although this guy didn't forget. He tried to destroy them, I believe. Didn't he, Vanessa? It appears that way that, yeah, he tried to destroy a couple of things. What did he try to destroy?

I believe they found a hat in pieces, that hat from that video. And the shoes? Yeah. I mean, right there, Lisa Daddio, who goes home and tears up their straw hat and their tennis shoes? And then you just happen to find the victim's DNA? Why do people, why do killers forget about their shoes? I mean, I would like to think a lot of times it's because they like the shoes, they spent a lot more money on the shoes, and they're just not thinking that there's any evidence on the shoes where there would be more evidence on a shirt or on a pair

of pants. They're not thinking how small, in this case, blood, you know, a droplet could be on the shoes because they don't see it. I mean, that's one of the first things I do, Lisa, is go to the defendant's closet. Yeah, get all those shoes. Take a listen now to our friend John Huck at Fox 5. Rob Tellis faces open murder charges in the killing of a Review Journal reporter, Jeff Gehrman. Investigators say Tellis held a grudge over articles Gehrman wrote about him. They say that brought him to Gehrman's Summerlin home on Friday where he's accused

of stabbing the journalist to death. The whole thing has unfolded out in Vegas, Sin City, and this is how it goes down. Robert Tellis claims he's being framed because he was working to expose a scam in the county where people were claiming properties of the deceased. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.