Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Accusers Take the Stand: Ghislaine Maxwell Trial Update

Episode Date: December 3, 2021

The sex trafficking trial of Ghislaine Maxwell continues. The wealthy socialite is accused of being a central player in Jeffrey Epstein’s decades of sexual abuse of minors. Defense attorneys say Maxwell is a scapegoat taking the fall for a man’s misdeeds. The defense portrays Maxwell as a victim, and the accusers as basically in it for the money Epstein’s estate set aside for victims of his abuse after his death. The first witness of the trial was Lawrence Paul Visoski Jr., who worked as a pilot shuttling Epstein. Now, one by one, the accusers take the stand.Joining Nancy Grace today: Jessica Pride - Sexual Assault Attorney, The Pride Law Firm, victimlawyer.com, Instagram: @thepridelawfirm, Twitter: @pridelawyer Dr. Teresa Gil, Ph.D. - Professor of Psychology, Psychotherapist, 25 years Working with Child Abuse & Trauma Victims, TeresaGilPHD.com, Author: "Women Who Were Sexually Abused as Children: Mothering, Resilience, and Protecting the Next Generation" Charles Duchamp - Detective, Beaumont Police Department, Criminal Investigations Division, Special Crimes Unit Bryan Llenas - Fox News National Correspondent, Instagram: @bllenas, Twitter: @bryanllenas, Covered Jeffrey Epstein's Trial/Suicide, Ghislaine Maxwell's Arrest Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. My daughter, Lucy, and her twin brother, of course, my daughter is 14 years old. Let it sink in. The victims in the Ghislaine Maxwell case are as young as 14. That we know of. How do I know there are not other victims that were younger than that? Think about it. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Today, tomorrow, every weekday during the school year, my daughter and son go out on the playground.

This is one of the reasons I drive by their school during recess because the Ghislaine Maxwell. Yes, this highly educated, wasn't it Cambridge or Oxford that she graduated Oxford in Great Britain, a university people strive for to attain all the money, all the breeding, all the manners means nothing. Because according to prosecutors and according to witnesses and victims that I have spoken with, and I believe them, she would actually troll the playground. Because in New York, the schools, their P.S., public school, public school, P.S. number 40, P.S. number 153, they're in the city. So they have basketball courts and play areas right there on the street. They may have a chain link fence around them, but you can

drive by and look at the children 20 feet away playing and sitting there having snacks at recess. According to witnesses, she would walk around the playground, get out of a limo and go over and strike up conversations with these little girls. Why? Why? I've seen it a hundred times with my own eyes, maybe a thousand, and all the cases I investigated and prosecuted. Grooming. You befriend the child victim. They think you're their friend. You give them money for the arcade. You buy them ice creams. You take them shopping. And the next thing you know, they're getting molested. That's what happens. 14 years old. And of course, now these ladies are grown up. These girls are grown up and they're in court. And as you would predict, as I know it's going to happen, makes me sick to my stomach, I know it's coming, and it's happening right now, they are getting

torn to shreds on cross-examination. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. We read your questions. We listen to your emails and phone calls. Let me know what you think. With me, an all-star panel to try and make sense of what is happening in the courtroom right now. But first of all, I want you to take a listen to our friend Mola Lenge at CBS. Taking the stand as Jane to protect her identity, the first alleged victim to testify in Ghislaine Maxwell's trial today said she was 14 and frozen in fear during her first sexual contact with Jeffrey Epstein. She said she'd met Epstein and Maxwell

in 1994 while eating ice cream at a summer arts camp in Michigan, telling a packed courtroom that Maxwell befriended her, then would sometimes be in the room during sexual abuse that went on for years. She seemed very casual, like it was normal, she said, with Maxwell just a few feet away at the defense table. But it did not seem normal to me. Jane fought back tears when she described flying from her home in Palm Beach to New Mexico, where she saw Maxwell and was told Epstein wanted to see her. I felt my heart sinking into my stomach, she said, her voice cracking because I didn't want to see him. Let me just put it out there. I think this is the same witness that said at age 14, Ghislaine Maxwell had her straddle, straddle like you ride a horse, straddle Epstein's face and had her, this 14-year-old girl, twist his nipples. And with that, I'll introduce our panel. Jessica Pride with me, sex assault

lawyer with the Pride Firm. You can find her at victimlawyer.com. Dr. Teresa Gill, PhD, professor of psychology, psychotherapist, and author of Women Who Were Sex Abused as Children. Special guest joining us for the first time today, Detective Charles DeChamp with Beaumont Police Department Criminal Investigations Division Special Crimes Unit. That's a mouthful. And a first-timer, let the hazing begin. Joining me, Brian Yennis, Fox News National Correspondent, who has been covering this case from the get-go. Brian, it makes me sick. It makes my stomach burn when I think about these women getting shredded on cross-exam. But that is the law.

Under the Sixth Amendment, you have a right to not only a lawyer, but the right to confront, translation, cross-examine witnesses called against you. Do I like it? No. Is it the law as interpreted from the Constitution? Yes. Tell me what's happening in court, Brian, and don't airbrush it. I hate that. Just tell me what's happening in court, Brian, and don't airbrush it. I hate that. Just tell me what's happening.

You think I like looking into a camera and saying a 14-year-old girl straddled Epstein's face and twisted his nipples? No, I don't. But that's what happened. Hit me. Nancy, we knew from the very beginning of this trial during opening statements what the defense was going to do here. In fact, I'm going to read you the first line from the defense on that day one about how they were going to attack these accusers going after Ghislaine Maxwell. The first line from the lawyer, Bobby Stern, was this. Ever since Eve was accused of tempting Adam for the apple, women have been blamed for the bad behavior of men. And women are often villainized and punished more than the men ever are i guess he's talking about galene maxwell being punished he is he's not these girl

victims that are getting shredded on the stand go ahead exactly right he what they are doing is setting the stage that what the prosecution is doing is is going after galen maxwell because they couldn't get after jeffrey epstein because they allowed him to kill himself in a jail cell and now she is the scapegoat. They also said that they were going to go after these accusers because of three and the three M's memory, manipulation and money. They're going to go after these accusers and say that their memory was faulty, that they were manipulated because of money, money that some of them have received, including the first woman who was on who took the stand, which was Jane, under the pseudonym.

She did accept $5 million from the victim's compensation fund, as did over 100 other victims through the Epstein estate. And I would like to point out, that's a double-edged sword as far as I'm concerned, Charles DeChamp, Detective DeChamp, because as you're hearing Brian Yenis, Fox News National Correspondent, accurately report, yes, Jane, not her true name, did take money from the Victim's Compensation Fund. I mean, you know it's bad when they have to create a multimillion dollar fund to pay off all your child sex victims. Okay, so that said, that's a double-edged sword. And I hope the state's listening because they got their hands full right now. Just in case they didn't think of this, I say it's a double-edged sword because of this. Yes, she took the money.

Yes, she can be cross-examined on a pecuniary or money interest in the outcome of a case. But the fact that she was awarded compensation means that another tribunal who runs that fund decided, yes, she is a victim of Epstein's. She's a real victim. So there, I would ball that up and wind back and throw that right back at the defense. So what do you make of that, Charles? I would think, I mean, she is a victim. She was, from what I've read, 14 years old when this started, which is a very young age, her mental is that of a child. She's not capable of dealing with things. She has hormones and stuff, but she's not able to deal with adult-type situations that she was placed into. And people that manipulate and prey upon children take advantage of that.

And that's what was done in this case where she's, you know, was taken advantage of amongst no telling how many others that are probably afraid to come forward because look what they're doing to this young lady. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. So Brian Yennis with me from Fox News National Correspondent. Go ahead. Tell me what else is happening in court. Yeah. So Jane recalled meeting Maxwell and Epstein in 1994 at the age of 14 at the Interlochen Summer Arts Camp. It's a prestigious art academy in Michigan in which Jeffrey Epstein was a donor. The prosecution brought somebody from the camp that confirmed that both Epstein and Maxwell did go to that camp. And that's where they first met Jane. At the time, Jane, her father recently died from leukemia, and the family was going into bankruptcy. And this is part of what we've seen are these accusations in which Maxwell and Epstein were said to target girls,

minors who were in families that were either broken or going through financial hardship. At that point, she was traveled between the ages of 14 and 16, between Florida, New Mexico, and New York. She took part in orgies, in which she says Maxwell took part in most of those orgies. Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. A 14-year-old girl being in an orgy? I don't even say orgy around the twins. Okay, every woman in this room right here, there's three of them, are going and looking away.

I wonder if the jury is looking away because that's a sign. When you put up testimony or pictures or a diagram and you see a jar, go, that means something. And everybody in this room went, when you said orgy. All right, don't just throw the word orgy at me, Brian Yannis. Mm-hmm. What exactly? What orgy? Where?

Who? What had that happen? So this was in, essentially what they would do is they brought her in for a hundred dollars they would say let's have sexualized massages maxwell maxwell would bring um would bring you're making my chest hurt right here i'm actually getting a chest pain go ahead she would bring uh gil and maxwell would bring in jane into the room and normalize sexual activities they would have conversations about sex. Maxwell would undress herself in front of Jane to normalize the fact that they would be naked.

They would go into the room in which Epstein was supposed to be getting sexualized massages. He would be naked. She would then do things to him as he was either, you know, masturbating at the time with Keelan Maxwell. Wait, who is she would do what things to who? Jane would do sexual acts to Epstein. What sex acts? Jane would do sexual masturbation. She would masturbate Epstein?

Epstein would masturbate and touch her breasts as well as Keelan Maxwell would also touch Jane's breasts as well in this room. That's what we know as to what the sexual abuse was like. They would have all of a sudden, she says, that the massage table would turn into some sort of orgy where there would be multiple people, other women, model-type women. This was a 14-year-old girl at the time. And Galen Maxwell was oftentimes in the room and she would also touch the 14 year old mainly on her breasts. What is Maxwell doing when all this testimony is coming out? Maxwell is taking notes on post-its. She's looking dead in the face. You know,

she's looking back and forth. She's looking at Jane, the 14-year-old accuser. She's also looking at the jury, and she is taking notes. She's paying attention. You say that like you want me to give her a gold star because she's paying attention? What else can she do? Do her nails?

Remember Simpson? OJ Simpson sat there and took notes, too. I think he was writing, I am screwed, but it didn't turn out that way. Then you had Jodi Arias. She was taking notes, looking like a librarian with her fake glasses on. Yeah, they're all taking notes. What else can they do? Go, oh, crap, I'm screwed.

No, they have to act normal. Take a listen to our Cut 11. This is Michael Genovese, 9 News. Testifying under the pseudonym Jane, she claims she was just 14 years old when she first suffered abuse at the hands of both Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell. The court heard how the pair befriended her and invited her to Epstein's Palm Beach mansion before eventually sexually abusing her, abuse that she claims lasted for years. Ghislaine Maxwell has pleaded not guilty to six charges,

including enticing, transporting and trafficking girls to have sex with Jeffrey Epstein. The first of the four victims to testify, Jane was adamant that she wasn't just groomed by Ms. Maxwell, but that she was physically abused by her as well, describing in graphic details group orgies at Epstein's home while she was aged between 14 and 16. She then described the impact that it's had on her adult life. How do you navigate a healthy relationship when you have a broken compass? It ruined my self-esteem, my self-worth. I didn't know how men were supposed to treat me, and I didn't know how I was supposed to reciprocate.

You know, I want to ask you this. Brian Yannis, joining me, Fox News national correspondent. The name Emmy, E-M-M-Y, has come out in trial. Jane, victim number one that we know of many, many dozens of victims, says she was abused by Maxwell and Epstein, forced to take part in sexualized massages involving adults. One of the adults is named Emmy and she had a British accent. Now, is she using the name Emmy for Ghislaine Maxwell or is Emmy another person? I believe that this is probably another person. I do not believe that this would be. I mean, we have to understand that Maxwell was in charge of the house, but there were other women

that were helping in setting Epstein up with these women. So I would imagine that this is another woman who was helping Epstein and Maxwell. I'm quoting from an article. One of the other women to take part in the orgy where everybody was taking part in sex play was named Sophie. Jane agreed with the defense that she, quote, knew the routine and that she would, quote, make out with other girls during the intercourse. Another woman who participated in the orgies was named Eva, and when asked, did she know the routine as well, Jane, not her real name, said, yes. You know, Jessica Pride, a sex assault attorney with the Pride law firm, the law is very clear, even with adult women. For many, many years, the law insisted there be corroboration for a rape, such as a bruise, bleeding from the vagina, a bloody lip, torn clothing, something to corroborate

the rape victim story. That is no longer the case. Corroboration in a rape case is no longer required. So the fact that this child didn't fight and scream and kick and claw and walk out of the room beat up. You remember LT, Lawrence Taylor, Dancing with the stars, huge NFL celebrity. When that little girl walked out of his hotel room, she was beaten, not by him, but by her pimp, to make her go have sex with LT. So that is not required under the law, because a child cannot consent to sex. crime stories with nancy grace my question to you is i anticipate the defense making a big deal out of the fact that this child

at the time, 14, didn't call police, wasn't bruised, wasn't beaten, didn't run from the house screaming, didn't have torn clothes. I guarantee you that's going to be insinuated. It's going to slip into the defense like a snake. Jessica. I agree, Nancy. However, you got it right. Children can't consent.

And another key component to this is grooming. This child was groomed. It didn't just happen the first day they meddled, suddenly dropped his pants and, you know, masturbation occurred. No, it was a series of boundary violations in which they did nice things for the girl, took her on trips. They usually give gifts, start to build a relationship. It's kind of a slippery slope where then victims all of a sudden one day find themselves in a place where they freeze in fear. Because they're like, wait, what just happened? How did I just see his penis for the first time? She was 14 and said she saw a penis for the first time and froze in fear. Now, does that sound like consent to you? No. And we know that the defense

is going to argue, oh, well, because she didn't fight. She didn't run away. She stayed there. She must have consented or complied. No, not true. And what we know is that 80% of victims, 80% of my clients do exactly that. They freeze in fear. That is how victims respond to trauma. And so that doesn't mean she consented.

She agreed. Even if she participated, that's what she felt like she had to do to survive the situation. So I don't think that that in any way, shape, or form means that she is in any way responsible for what happened. The grown-ups are responsible. The predators are responsible. Ghislaine Maxwell is responsible. Let me give you an example of what Jessica Pryde is talking about when victims freeze. I've told this story once.

I'll tell it again. The other day, the twins and I were walking our pound puppy, Fat Boy. And even though he's this big, he thinks he is a Rottweiler or a St. Bernard. So when we take him for a walk, he tries to pick a fight with every other dog that we pass. Well, he picked a fight with two Rottweilers. And I don't know how he did it, but he lunged and got out of his leash. We changed, by the way, after that. He had one of these leashes.

Now he wears a vest. So that young man is not going to be able to get out of his leash again. Anyway, he ran straight between the two Rottweilers and started a fight with them. Well, I ran over there. My son ran behind me and we got the dog back. Nobody was hurt. I turned around and my daughter Lucy was just standing there. I said, you did not help me try to get the dog, Lucy. And she said, Mom, I froze. I was so scared.

I froze. And you know what? She was standing in the same exact spot. She sure was. She froze. And I am just imagining this little girl freezing at the time, wanting the money. Her family is going bankrupt with the dad dying of leukemia, wanting the money, wanting the new clothes or the whatever it is the money would buy that all the other girls had at school. I want you to take a listen to our cut 21.

This is Mola Linji with CBS News. You could hear the discomfort in her voice as she testified, the sighs and the deep breaths before answering questions, at times getting emotional and often sounding deflated, especially when she was recalling the more graphic details. The defense will continue their cross-examination of Jane. Let's talk about the cross-examination. But first, take a listen to our cut 14.

My longtime friend Shep Smith at CNBC. The alleged victim using the pseudonym Jane in court. She's accusing Jeffrey Epstein's one-time girlfriend of grooming her, sexually abusing her, and forcing her to engage in sex acts with Epstein. But in cross-examination, Maxwell's lawyers pressed her to recall exact dates and facts from decades ago. Jane had said at one point in her testimony that Epstein flew her to New York on his private jet to see The Lion King on Broadway in 1994. Maxwell's lawyer questioned her on how she could have done that when The Lion King didn't debut until 1997. Jane testified she'd been incorrect in her timeline.

Oh, wow, they scored a point, didn't they, Dr. Teresa Gill? Hey, gotcha, The Lion King didn't start until 97 and you said 94. Who cares? I'm more concerned about her seeing Epstein's penis for the first time when she's 14 years old than when she saw the Lion King. But

you know, that's what happens to victims on the stand, Dr. Gill. Well, I think what's interesting is that when, I think that Ghislaine and Epstein were kind of masterful because what they did was during the abuse phase, they would actually talk to her about all the things that they could give her. So what do you want to do in your career?

What are your dreams? We can help you with that. could give her. So what do you want to do in your career? What are your dreams? We can help you with that. We know people. Here is money for your mother who needs money and is desperate so she can take care of the family. So they mixed the, you know, the sexual exploitation with the promise of having the things that you want and being able to financially take care of your mom. So of course she's going to be confused. Of course there's going to be mixed messages and she's going to freeze and not know what to do. And they were just masterful at what they did. Dr. Gill, you've just given me a very horrible flashback to a case that I tried. And the victim was a nine-year-old little boy and he was very learning disabled.

As a matter of fact, I had this happen a couple of times with children. On the stand, he put his head down and I had to go up and try to not tell, I can't tell him what to say, but, you know, take his hand and try to coerce, cajole him into continuing his testimony. But nine years old and his mom worked, single mom. And he, as I told you, learning disabled, Dr. Gill, and one thing he loved, he could play video games. I don't mean like the kinds my son plays where he sits at his desktop and plays games and his little friends are on the cell phone. They're all playing the same game. You would go to an arcade, like at the mall or something, and you'd put in a quarter and you'd play until you lost. Well, that's

something that he could do and he understood and he loved playing it. So his mom would let him go. Well, one day she found a $10 bill folded up in his front pocket, a crisp $10 bill. Well, she had to find out where it came from, and here's the rest of the story. A grown man, many people thought he was very attractive. I, of course, did not find him the least bit handsome. Great job, college degree, wife, family, the works. Of course, he was divorced and living alone, but he would get rolls of quarters and give them to this little boy who could barely speak. And then we're taken back to his home, which was near the arcade. And when that home was searched, pursuant to warrant,

by the bed was child porn, half full container of Vaseline and all sorts of sex paraphernalia. I had this boy examined. This child had been raped so many times. Well, okay, I'm not going to go into it, but let me just say it was apparent immediately upon examination that this child was a rape victim. And you're talking, that was for a roll of quarters. This child that couldn't even talk had been being anally raped for who knows how many months. For a roll of quarters.

And here you're taking a girl, whether she's 14 or 15, to fly on a private jet to see what it was that she saw, The Lion King. Can I tell you how excited my children were when they got to see Wicked on Broadway? It was like they were, they still talk about it. I'm just thinking. And he also co-signed for an apartment for the mother and her and the brothers to have a place in Manhattan. So he was giving a lot, not only to this little girl. And getting a lot. crime stories with nancy grace take a listen to our cut 13 this is errol rich chef abc this morning the first accuser to testify in the criminal sex trafficking case

against Gillian Maxwell, former girlfriend of convicted sex offender Jeffrey Epstein, will be back on the stand. Defense attorneys continuing cross-examination of the woman known only by the pseudonym Jane. Tuesday, Jane telling the jury she was 14 when she had her first sexual encounter with Epstein, describing in graphic detail the explicit moments with him that left her frozen in fear. And to our cut 15, Shep Smith, CNBC. The lawyer also tried to suggest Jane was unreliable and might be telling her story for money. She pounced on the fact that the alleged victim acts in soap operas, asking whether she's accustomed to memorizing lines,

able to cry on command, and seeks drama. The lawyer also questioned why Jane didn't come forward with all the details of her story much earlier. But Jane later testified, I was sitting in a room full of strangers and telling them the most shameful, deepest secrets I had been carrying around with me everywhere. It was too difficult, too difficult emotionally, too difficult on every level.

Brian Yannis, joining us from Fox News, tell me about the cross-examination of Jane. Well, just as you heard from chefs reporting there, the really, one of the harder parts was when they were asking her about her acting chops. This is somebody who's been acting for over 22 years and soap operas and the like and a pretty successful career. And the attorney goes, you know, you were a cancer patient, a car crash victim. You played a prostitute even. And Jane says, well, that was not my favorite role. Is it to say, you know, why are you bringing that role up?

And she did say because ultimately she was then pressed as to why she took too long. And again, Jane said, because it was too difficult. It was too difficult emotionally, too difficult on every level. And during this cross-examination, you know, they really pounced on the fact that she had spoken to the FBI in 2019 and in 2020. And during that cross-examination, she had not told, she told the FBI that her memory was a little bit foggy as to whether or not Ghislaine Maxwell was actually in the room when Epstein molested her. And they also recounted the fact that she wasn't sure if Maxwell had ever touched her. And of course, that is different than what her testimony is now, which is that Maxwell was there most of the time and that Maxwell had touched her on multiple occasions, including in orgies and on her breasts. So this was really at the heart of what I think the defense is going to continue to

do to each and every one of these accusers that come up. We still have three more left, trying to poke holes, particularly on the issue of memory, as if you do not have any evidence in terms of documentary evidence to corroborate what you're saying. Your memory is more than 20 years in the past you were a child. And how can we rely on that, especially when there are these inconsistencies over the last few years? It's very clear that this is what they're going to continue to do. And, you know, I don't know if it'll work on the jury. I think, Nancy, you've seen this a lot more than I have as to whether or not this will work. It's obviously a big gamble on their part.

Wow, the way you were saying that, Brian, I felt like I was right there in the courtroom. Well, this is when the state needs corroboration. As I said earlier, is it required under the law? No, it's not required under the law. But will it help solidify this case for the jury? And that's why we need this pilot that piloted, that captained a private plane for Epstein where he would fly these young girls all over the world. Take a listen to our cut 18.

This is Mike Sachs, Fox 5, New York. Earlier in the day, Epstein's longtime private pilot gave the jury detailed descriptions of Maxwell's and Epstein's various homes, as well as Epstein's three planes he owned from 1994 to 2004, the time period the government says Maxwell trafficked and abused four different underage girls in each of those locations. But the pilot also said he never saw any female he thought was under the age of 20 on a plane without a parent, instead describing the 14-year-old Jane as a, quote, mature woman with piercing powder blue eyes. Okay, what does that mean?

He thought that this witness who's on the stand right now, Jane, was a grown woman. Explain that to me, if you don't mind. Brian? He was very familiar with Epstein's accuser, Virginia Giuffre, or Virginia Roberts, who was suing Jeffrey, who was suing Ghislaine Maxwell in the civil case. But when asked about Jane, it was only that there was a familiarity with Jane, but that he couldn't pinpoint her particularly. You know, he essentially said that he recalled seeing Jane coming into the cockpit with Jeffrey Epstein, but that he couldn't guarantee that he transported her somewhere. You know, he says that he can remember places, people like President Clinton, but he can't remember the passenger necessarily, you know, in that kind of specificity.

So he also said that he never saw any sexual acts on the airplane. But he did obviously fly in the airplane. Right. He said that sometimes he would go down in the airplane and he never every time he left the cockpit, you cockpit, he never saw anything. But he did say that, yeah, we did fly a lot of people. And ultimately, he confirmed that Ghislaine Maxwell was somebody who was his number two right-hand woman and that there were people on these flights. But in terms of being the smoking gun, in terms of saying, you know, I saw Jane and she was in fact underage and was traveling this. He didn't necessarily offer that. What he was able to offer was, yes, Jane was somebody who was in our world. I'd noticed her. I know that this was somebody that knew Maxwell and Epstein. I did fly people. Sometimes they were underage, but they were with parents when I understood it. So at least there was the corroboration that these flights existed, that there was a relationship.

But in terms of him having witnessed anything that would cross the line, he wasn't able to offer that. But you know what? To you, Jessica Pryor, you're a veteran trial lawyer. And I'll circle back with our Detective Charles DeChamp.

We don't need him to identify her, the victim, or say he observed them having sex. We need him to verify that he flew that private plane with Epstein. I don't care about Trump and Clinton. I'm not on their case today. Talking about, was he transporting girls from one place to the next? Everybody wants to talk about Trump and Clinton. You know, I noticed all the Republicans talk about Clinton and all the Democrats talk about Trump being on the plane.

Don't care. I care about these girls. What in the hay was Epstein doing flying these young girls around without their parents? So Jessica Pride, the pilot, did what we wanted him to do. He described Epstein's planes and he described flying girls. He didn't know if they were underage or not. And he remembered victim one. That's exactly right, because the charges that Maxwell is being charged with are for sex trafficking and transporting, you know, women across state lines for the purpose of, you know, having for them to be molested by Epstein.

So now that he places Jane in the plane, you've got it. You've got what you need. The prosecutor did a good job and the pilot served his purpose. You know, earlier, they keep talking about, oh, this is about the victims coming forward and they're financially motivated. They're trying to get money that this is why they're testifying. No, Jane already got money from the Victims' Compensation Fund. And people really need to read the fine print. The fine print says if you take money from Epstein's Victims' Compensation fund, you can't get money from anywhere else. Not a single dollar.

You have to dismiss the cases against Ghislaine Maxwell. All civil cases against her from the victims who took money from the fund had to drop them, had to dismiss them. So even, it's shocking to me that Epstein really wanted to protect his rich friends. He wanted to still protect Ghislaine by, hey, take my money, but then you can't go after anyone else. And that is crazy to me. So she has no financial motive right now. And I can tell you that from the thousands of clients I've represented, it's not about the money. No amount of money is worth being sexually abused. She will live with a lifetime of trauma and the medical bills. And the other thing is she only got $5 million. I mean, $5 million is a lot of money, but out of 125 million that they put out,

they did have 225 people apply for that money. And the independent evaluator said, we think she's got a case and we're going to give her money. And I think that's very relevant. I think the prosecution, since the defense brought it up on cross-exam, should hammer it. Hammer it. I would chew that up and spit it out right on the defense table. And didn't Brian Yenis just say that it came out that Ghislaine Maxwell was Epstein's number two? Number two. His right-hand person.

So Charles DeChamp, there you have it. She was the one booking those planes. Now, when you take a private plane, you got to say who the passengers are, show some identification. You want to tell me she's his number two and she didn't know who was on that plane? Be asked, you ship. Well, I can tell you this, and I have talked to you about Texas law

and how we charge parties here when we have these type of trafficking type cases. Individuals that we can, through evidence, which is what you got there, testimony and other things that you can, forms of evidence you could use. If you can prove that those other parties, you know, participated, knew about what was going on with it, then they're capable of being charged along with it with just with everyone else. And we do it. I agree, Duch we agree to agree. I couldn't agree more. As a matter of fact,

I'm so mad right now. I could chew a nail in half. We wait as justice unfolds. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an I heart podcast.