Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ALEC BALDWIN IN TRIAL CROSSHAIRS? COHORT CALLS JURY IDIOT A**HOLES

Starting point is 00:00:00 This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Movie star Alec Baldwin one step closer to a jury trial on homicide. Baldwin's rage fits and uncontrollable anger on set coming back to bite him in the neck as his Rust movie co-defendant found guilty for the on-set shooting death of wife and mother cinematographer Helena Hutchins. Next up, Alec Baldwin. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. We find the defendant, Annie Gutierrez, guilty of voluntary manslaughter as charged in count one. We find the defendant, Anna Gutierrez, not guilty of tampering with evidence. It's Church and Count 2.

Starting point is 00:01:07 Co-defendant, the armorer, just found guilty in a court of law. The armorer charged along with Alec Baldwin. Is he this close to a jury trial on homicide? Joining me in All-Star Panel to make sense of what we know right now, Maureen Callahan, first up, columnist, DailyMail.com. Maureen, thank you for being with us. What happened? What happened is you're correct. Alec Baldwin is one step closer. He is next up. And if what happened to this armorer is any indication of what is about to happen to Alec Baldwin, things do not look good for him. I would argue that aside from the complete lack of safety protocols that were

Starting point is 00:01:54 left just completely neglected on this set, you know, you have this armorer who's arguing, I was young and naive. I was in over my head. Then don't take the job where your main responsibility is to keep the cast and in Hannah's sentencing, an utter lack of remorse, an utter lack of taking any accountability. And as we have seen since this tragic incident, Alec Baldwin, for moment one, has expressed sympathy for only himself. Along with his wife, who keeps posting shots of herself in skin-tight leggings and stiletto heels walking around New York and very callously posting happy moments of them with their family as the family of Helena Hutchins goes without a wife and mom. Guys, it didn't help anything when the co-defendant, the armorer,

Starting point is 00:03:03 an armorer is the person on the set that's in charge of all of the ammo and the guns and the weapons. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed actually is calling the Girards idiot a-holes. Idiots and a-holes. Okay, that's not gonna help anything. Dale Carson, high- high profile lawyer, former FBI

Starting point is 00:03:26 agent joining us out of Jacksonville, author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at dalecarsonlaw.com. Dale, have your clients still not figured out their calls are being recorded? You know, when you've got somebody two or three days before sentencing and they're going, the jury's an a-hole, the jury's a bunch of idiots. Really? It's a real problem. And no matter how many times you tell your clients that they're recording the phone calls, it really doesn't have a significant effect on their conversations on telephones to their friends because they're talking to people that they purportedly or have positive relationships with. And of course, she's probably right. They did convict her, although they did find her not guilty of the cocaine charge, which is kind of a gift. Did you just say Gutierrez is kind of right? Is that what you said? She's probably kind of right. Was she called the jurors a-holes? From her perspective,

Starting point is 00:04:34 they convicted her, right? They're not friends of hers, obviously. Is she just telling her truth? In other words, history rewritten the way she wants it to be. Well, they convicted her. And you got to know that that doesn't make her feel good. So since she's full of herself. I don't care how she feels. Are you crazy? What? I just.

Starting point is 00:04:55 Are you OK? Number one. Are you in the middle of a young wife slash mother. Incredible cinematographer. You're okay with her calling the jurors a-holes and idiots. I'm a defense attorney, Nancy. Of course I'm okay with that. Well, you know what's interesting?

Starting point is 00:05:24 A snake crawls on its belly and it thinks it's a king. OK, but it's not. It's a snake. So blurting out I'm a defense attorney doesn't make it OK. You know, I don't let you think about what you've done for a few moments. I'm putting you in the corner. You're into official timeout. Uh, guys, in case any of you have forgotten what this is about. All right. We're joking around. Helena Hutchins is dead. She has a little boy and a husband. The little boy, no mommy, no mommy. That's never going to change for him. There may be a stepmother someday. There may be a daddy's girlfriend.

Starting point is 00:06:14 But there is no such thing as a new mother. Take a listen to this 911 call. The Nanta Creek Ranch has had two people accidentally shot on a movie set by a prop gun. We need help immediately. Okay. Bonanza Creek Ranch. Come on. Stay on the phone with me. We're going to get some help, okay?

Starting point is 00:06:31 Okay. What is your name? Don't hang up, okay? Hold on just one second. It sounds like somebody else is calling for two ambulances. You better make sure everybody should be. We need some help. Our director and our cameraman, our cameraman has been shot.

Starting point is 00:06:46 Are they going to take him to the road? So was it loaded with a real bullet or one? I cannot tell you that. Gosh, they were pretty calm, a very calm demeanor when two people had been shot. Maureen Callahan, special guest joining us, calling us for DailyMail.com, I think is the biggest online news outlet in the world. Not sure about that.

Starting point is 00:07:10 I'm sure all the other outlets would argue with that. Maureen Callahan, two people were shot. Who's the other one? I know Helena Hutchins, a cinematographer. And who's the other one? Shot by Alec Baldwin, although he keeps saying he didn't pull the trigger. Okay. I hope he tells that to the jury. Who's the other one? Shot by Alec Baldwin, although he keeps saying he didn't pull the trigger. OK, I hope he tells that to the jury. Who's the other victim? It was Joel Souza, who was on the set as well, and who testified in this case that he felt that he had been struck by a baseball bat.

Starting point is 00:07:38 And that the moment the shooting happened, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer in question, was standing over him and saying, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, which is maybe the first and only time we have heard anything approaching culpability or remorse out of this young woman. I would also say to your earlier point about her being recorded on prison calls, referring to the jurors as idiots, a-holes, and worse, saying that the judge was on the take and, quote, on a power trip, just it goes to the level of intelligence here. You know, one would think if you're on trial for your life, she will never work in this industry again. She will never hold a job of any real import again.

Starting point is 00:08:23 Maureen Callahan, you know, that's an old phrase that's thrown around. You'll never work in this town again. I actually had that said to me by the head of a network once, by the way. I still did what I was going to do anyway. Oh, yeah. But that's a story for another day. Right now I'm on Alec Baldwin. You said that, hey, like she's not going to be an armorer again.

Starting point is 00:08:47 Who cares? I'd be worried about not going to jail with all the killers and the child molesters and the dope dealers. But that's just me. I wouldn't worry too much about my career as a movie armorer at this moment. But you said her calling the jurors idiots and a-holes, you said, and worse. What was worse than that other than saying the judge is on the take? That's huge. Well, I would never use this word in most play.

Starting point is 00:09:14 People don't use this word anymore. But she used the R word in referring to the jurors' lack of intelligence. You know, it's all just emblematic of a set, I believe, that from the top down. And by that, I mean by Alex Baldwin. Maureen Callahan, I have huge respect for you. But what did she say? She called the jurors retards. Is that what you're saying?

Starting point is 00:09:36 She did. She did. She did. You know, it just never ends with this one, does it? Her and Alex Baldwin. You know what? That brings me to another point, why their trials were severed to start with,

Starting point is 00:09:47 because I put those two in the same pot and let them stew together. But take a listen to this 911 call. We have two injuries from a movie gun shot. Okay, we're getting them out there

Starting point is 00:09:59 already. Just stay on the phone with me. Okay. I just got a s*** that yelled at me at lunch because I was asking about revisions. I was like, s***, did you see him? We all go to my table and yell at me.

Starting point is 00:10:10 He's supposed to check the guns. He's responsible for what happened. Are you a presentation now, Mimi? No, no, no. I'm a script supervisor. How many people were injured? Two that I know of. I was sitting, we were rehearsing, and it went off,

Starting point is 00:10:22 and I ran out. We all ran out. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me, in addition to Dale Carson and special guest Maureen Callahan, is renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, lucky for me, former detective. She literally wrote the book, Homicide Investigation Field Guide, new book, Money, Mischief and Murder, The Murdoch Saga. You may need a volume two on that one, Dr. Dupree.

Starting point is 00:10:58 Dr. Dupree, you hear the 911 caller state that one of the victims is bleeding. She wasn't just bleeding. She bled out. She died. How quickly can a human exsanguinate? Bonancia, of course, as you know, it depends on where the person is shot. It can take, you know, a very short period of time or it can take several minutes. It all depends on the organs and the injury itself. Warning to everybody, warning to the prosecutor, the judge and the future jurors, the defense has threatened to call out the big guns in this case, threatening to bring on Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford as defense witnesses. I'm pretty sure, Maureen Callahan, that Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren,

Starting point is 00:11:41 two icons in the movie industry, were not on the set that day. Would you agree with that? I think that's a safe assumption to make, Nancy. I mean, I'm sure both of them would love to be excluded from this narrative. I mean, again, this just shows you the level of delusion and entitlement and how long someone like Alec Baldwin has been in his bubble. He thinks by hauling in a couple of aging A-listers who had nothing to do with this tragedy that somehow the jury will be impressed, that somehow the jury will think that this guy, again, who has shown zero remorse, who, as you said, he and his wife posting happy family photos within days of Helena Hutchinson's wholly preventable death, saying that it was intense parenting through this difficult time when Helena's little boy was unable to speak for two days after this death. You think this guy's remotely sympathetic? You think Helena Hutchins' armorer was like, had a remote shot at getting a sympathetic jury? Like Alec Baldwin, I hope his

Starting point is 00:12:54 defense attorneys are able to knock some sense into him because she's going to prison, not jail, the judge said, because of her lack of remorse, because of her attempts to blame everybody else. And if you want another, just look at the level of her delusion. This girl tried to get Helena's family members to testify for her in court. Helena Hutchins dies on the set of Alec Baldwin's new movie, Rust. The armorer, that's what they call them, joining me, Johannes Chumweno, film and TV safety expert, CEO of Star Network, and you can find him at VIPStarNetwork.com. Johannes, they did everything wrong. The armorer did. And when Alec Baldwin actually says he didn't pull the trigger, that's complete BS, technical legal term, because he did pull the trigger. And asking the victim's family to testify for her in court.

Starting point is 00:14:10 There's just so much wrong she did in court. That's right. But what went wrong on the set, Mr. Chamueno? Pre-planning, Nancy. This is a case that underscores the significance from a health and safety standpoint. This case in itself will change, will allow a catalyst of change within the industry in terms of pre-planning health and safety protocols, stringent requirements for training, as well as most importantly, the hiring, the workforce development.

Starting point is 00:14:38 Everything on set should have never even got to a stage where there was potentially live ammunition and a dummy gun Nancy and so this is the importance of this will will have a detriment since in the future and it will be really interesting to to follow the case in the next five to ten years okay you know what Johannes Chamueno film and TV safety expert just said everything a 100% accurately but when I think about the next 5, 10, 15 years, all I think about is Helena Hutchins' boy growing up and having one Christmas after the next without mom. One birthday after the next without mom. Going to her grave, putting flowers there. heard Maureen Callahan speak earlier from DailyMail.com, the little boy didn't utter one

Starting point is 00:15:26 word for two days after he found out his mother had been shot dead at work by Alec Baldwin. Guys, many people have heard the 911 calls made that day, but very few have heard the police body cam footage where the Rust armorer, Hannah Gutierrez, is taken with a cop around the set as she tries desperately to collect rounds and rounds of ammunition. Listen. I need to know where the guns are right now. Armor, I need to know where the guns are at. Right there! How do I know this is a gun? That's the gun!

Starting point is 00:16:24 Okay. Come with me. Okay. Where are they at? They're fucking... I don't know if his name's Dave. Dave, do you have those rounds I gave you? What? Did you hear that?

Starting point is 00:16:49 She can't find the ammo. They don't know which gun is which. Wow. Okay. Back to Maureen Callahan joining us from DailyMail.com. What about the threats? Hey, hey, Jackie, give me some soap and a washcloth right now, because I'm going straight to Maureen Callahan's set and washing her mouth out with soap to refer to Harrison Ford and Helen Mirren as aging A-listers. OK, girl, you got a nerve. OK, I'm going to try to ignore that for right now to just get...

Starting point is 00:17:26 That's controversial? Yes. But their popularity is not my problem right now. Because they're icons. They're legends. They're still starring on the screen. They're rolling in money. Harrison Ford has a wife that's like 30 years younger than him.

Starting point is 00:17:41 He's flying around in planes. And you called him an aging A-lister. You know what? I would not want to look up and see Indiana Jones coming after me. I don't care how old he is with that whip. Forget it. That said, their threat is they're going to call in Helen Mirren and Harrison Ford to say what? Okay. I'm leading up to a legal point, Maureen Callahan. Once you bring in character evidence in a trial, such as Harrison Ford, if he would do it, say, yeah, Baldwin's a great guy. That's called opening the door under the law. And I would wait on the edge

Starting point is 00:18:18 of my seat, every trial, hoping the defendant would bring in his or her good character. Why? Under our Constitution, the state's not allowed to say, yeah, he's got an arrest for this. He attacked a lady in a parking lot. He attacked this person. He blessed out that you can't do that. You cannot try a defendant on their reputation unless and until they open the door. Then the state takes out this very, very huge file like this one and starts going through all of the convictions and the prior bad acts. So I pray that they bring on Ford and Mirren because once they do, all of the bloviators BS over the years is coming Wright entered the courtroom like the Easter parade. Okay. This is such a great point. What history does Alec Baldwin...

Starting point is 00:19:10 Such a great point. This is the obvious, right? Yeah. The public rage monster we have long known and been too terribly acquainted with. Okay. Alec Baldwin, who has punched numerous members of the paparazzi, who fairly recently got into like slugging somebody over street parking in New York City, who called like a Starbucks barista, like a queen who, you know, left that unforgettable voicemail message for his then like 12 year old daughter, calling her a thoughtless little pig things thrown around

Starting point is 00:19:46 on broadway backstage like the top so the top part of this um indictment for baldwin states that he had quote no emotional control no control of his emotions on this set to which the members of the general public i guarantee you any jury pool would say, no surprise there. This guy is full of rage. And again, I think it was a top-down kind of thing. This was his set. He was a producer. He was the star. He allowed a completely inexperienced, gutless, naive, lazy, indolent kid to be in charge of ammunition on a set that the day or two before, no, the morning of Helena Hutchins' fatal shooting, a good number of that crew walked off the set because they had been sounding the alarm for days with the production. Take a listen. In recorded jailhouse phone calls,

Starting point is 00:20:50 Hannah Gutierrez-Reed lashes out at the jury after she is convicted on manslaughter charges, but before she is sentenced. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed blasts the jurors that convicted her, calling them idiots and a-holes. These jailhouse phone call recordings are brought out by the prosecution just in time for sentencing. The defense has worked hard to present Gutierrez-Reed in a softer, more genteel manner, but prosecutors say the jailhouse recordings show how she really is outside of court. Gutierrez-Reed wants Alec Baldwin to go to jail, too, and says she won't testify at his upcoming trial if subpoenaed. crime stories with nancy grace in recorded jailhouse phone calls hannah gutierrez reed lashes out at the jury after she is convicted on manslaughter charges but before she is sentenced. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed blasts the jurors that convicted her,

Starting point is 00:21:46 calling them idiots and a-holes. These jailhouse phone call recordings are brought out by the prosecution just in time for sentencing. The defense has worked hard to present Gutierrez-Reed in a softer, more genteel manner, but prosecutors say the jailhouse recordings show how she really is outside of court. Gutierrez-Reed wants Alec Baldwin to go to jail, too, and says she won't testify at his upcoming trial if subpoenaed. Wow.

Starting point is 00:22:10 Okay, so how are you going to get out of that when you're subpoenaed? And what, do you just stick your bottom lip out so far you can plant a row of turnips on it and refuse to testify? Okay, that's not going to work. But that said, did she do that, Maureen Callahan, DailyMail.com, did she threaten not to testify if called? That's what I've read that she is. But she also complained that Alec Baldwin had not been subpoenaed in her case. So, again, you're dealing with a level of not just emotional and psychological immaturity, but intellectual deficit. And the idea that this young woman was placed in charge of ammunition and weaponry on this set, just beggars belief. She got what was coming to her. She probably would have gotten a lesser sentence again, had she displayed

Starting point is 00:23:00 one iota of genuine remorse. But the only tears she shed were at the end of this trial for herself. And this is why I believe this trial is a giant foreshadowing of what we are about to see with Alec Baldwin standing trial on a much larger scale before a much larger audience in July. Well, this woman, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, would certainly not be the first for jailhouse conversations coming back to bite you in the neck. We just saw the sentencing and the parents of Ethan Crumley, the school shooter. And then we find out behind bars, Crumley's dad threatened to take a hit out on the lady prosecutor. Listen. Crumley's dad threatened to take a hit out on the lady prosecutor. Listen.

Starting point is 00:23:48 Rarely do we see a defendant threatening the prosecutor, let alone a member of a trial team, let alone the elected official. There will be retribution. She's going to be sucking on a hot rock down in hell soon. I am on a rampage, Karen. Yes, Karen McDonald, your is going down and you better be here. I didn't want to read that, Judge. That was just a few weeks before the trial. I don't know any other definition what that could be other than a specific threat made to a member of the trial team. OK, so that's what jailhouse banter, let me say, gets you at sentencing.

Starting point is 00:24:26 And here, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed calling the jurors a-holes and idiots and saying the judge is on the take. Ouch. Joining you right now, another special guest in addition to Maureen Callahan, Johannes Chamueno, Dr. Dupree, and Dale. Paul Zyke is joining us, former police commander, also with the Screen Actors Guild, experienced using firearms with blanks during live action movie scenes such as Terminator. Author has stopped him from killing them on Amazon. That's a lot. But before I continue with your CV, let me ask you what went wrong on the set. And Alec Baldwin is now, uh, up against it because he openly stated he did not pull the trigger.

Starting point is 00:25:20 Now, when that is disproved at trial, which it will be, he's going to be stuck with his lie. Explain to me how it was proven with the gun in question, the homicide gun, that somebody had to pull the trigger. Well, the FBI did a series of testing on that weapon, and it was determined that there is no way for that weapon to fire unless the trigger is actually pulled. It's just that simple. And there's no way for a projectile to strike somebody that you're not aiming weapon at them. In both cases that occurred, the environment has to be sanitized. There can be no live ammunition anywhere to be seen. That was also breached. There was a cataclysmic failure at multiple points that synergistically created this perfect storm

Starting point is 00:26:13 and unfortunately resulted in an absolute horrific incident that we just can't go back and fix. However, moving forward, we should stop utilizing deadly weapons as prop guns. This was not a prop gun. It's a functioning firearm being used as a prop. And at the end of the day, that is a contributory factor in what caused this. Is it true, Maureen Callahan, you said earlier, Maureen, joining us from DailyMail.com, she actually asked Helena Hutchins' family to come on and testify for her. Yes.

Starting point is 00:26:47 Yes. Which, again, goes to the level of entitlement, of complete lack of culpability, accountability that she took. She said to the judge before her sentencing, you know, this doesn't make me a monster. I made a mistake. It just makes me a human being, you know, and it sort of springs from this ethos of like Gen Zers that any mistake, even one that results in the end of a life, is just something that kind of goes into the bank of your own lived experiences that will hopefully make you better going forward. I mean, this is everything

Starting point is 00:27:25 that like resulted in her getting 18 months in prison, not jail. And one would hope she would emerge from this a little bit humbled, a little bit better. I doubt it. Joining me, a high profile lawyer, former fed with the FBI, Dale Carson. Dale, this should be a blueprint for Alec Baldwin, but I'm pretty sure, you know, when you don't know a horse, look at his track record. He's never listened to a darn thing anybody's ever told him. So I doubt he's going to listen now. But the trial of Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the armorer on the Rust set, should be a blueprint for warning to him. Because what she did was this, blaming each other. That's why I like Trico defendants together, because the jury gets to sit there and watch them all at the same table, blaming each other. She blamed Baldwin.

Starting point is 00:28:20 When Baldwin goes to trial, he's going to blame her. It didn't work for Gutierrez-Reed. Do you think it'll work for Baldwin? Well, of course, that's why you call A-listers who've been involved in firearms and the use of armors to argue that you have a right to rely on what they've done. But I will say this, the person responsible for the death here and the use of a firearm is Baldwin. This armor, of course, facilitated that, but the real guilt has to be put on the person who actually killed the individual. Firearms are inherently dangerous. I've been in a number of shootings. I've seen the results of this. Firearms are dangerous. And your other guest is absolutely correct.

Starting point is 00:29:08 To have a functioning firearm on set with actual live rounds is outrageous. No one in their right mind would do that. Even the FBI, when it uses prop guns, they're drilled so that they can't fire a projectile, even if someone mistakenly puts something in a chamber. And to not do that is insane. But it speaks to the use of firearms and movies and on scenes directly. And it tells us that guns are safe. I can tell you I've carried a gun since I was 22 in a police situation all my life.

Starting point is 00:29:47 They're dangerous. I don't like them. I hide them. I put them in a safe when I'm not using them. All of that. Second verse, same as the first. If I had you on trial, I would object for being unresponsive to the question. The question was not about you as a young rookie cop at age 22 carrying a weapon.

Starting point is 00:30:07 The question was about the theory of defense at trial. Will Alec Baldwin blame the armorer like the armorer blamed Alec Baldwin? Because it didn't work out very well for her. Of course he will. And will it work? Will it work? Because I say it didn't work out very well for her. Of course he will. And will it work? Will it work? Because I say it won't work. Oh, I say it won't work because he's responsible for the firearm pointed at a person that he killed.

Starting point is 00:30:35 Man, I'm a JD, not a DDS. I don't know how to pull a tooth, but I will try. Let me go to Johannes Chamueno joining us, film and TV safety expert at VIPStarNetwork.com. Johannes, right or wrong? Baldwin has claimed, and this is going to come back to haunt him, that he didn't pull the trigger. He pulled the trigger! Wrong, Nancy. Wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It's all wrong. And I think the idea is that going into the case, Ms. Hannah Gutierrez-Reed is now the

Starting point is 00:31:06 scapegoat. Would you agree, Nancy? They've already convicted her. And to now convict Alec Baldwin on the same crime, the same case, is going to be challenged. And so, rather right or wrong, the idea is that the judge has already ruled in Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's case. She is now the scapegoat. Health and safety standards will continue to be improved alongside the catastrophic traffic, tragic incident rather, that has occurred between the family of Helena Hutchinson. Really from a comprehensive health and safety standpoint, we can now look at this case and say, how do we improve? How do we move forward in a way that's consistent with the situation that, again, that the family Helena Hutchison is facing?

Starting point is 00:31:47 And so I'm unfortunately going to agree that Hannah Gutierrez is now the scapegoat in the case. With me, Johannes Chumweno, who's a film and TV safety expert. I'm trying to that was a mouthful. Number one, I put this down because I could not keep up with everything you were saying. But to put it in a nutshell, I think what you said is, they are, Baldwin's team is going to blame Gutierrez-Reed, and it may very well work because she's already been convicted. And they can say, look, she's been convicted. A jury said so.

Starting point is 00:32:24 That's right. She's the problem. Okay. Got it. I think I hear somebody jumping in. Was it Maureen or Dr. Dupree? It's Dr. Dupree, Nancy. I think that, you know, this is absolutely tragic and absolutely Alex Baldwin bears some responsibility, but I also think that we have to put the majority of the blame or responsibility on Hannah. It was her job. What would we expect Alex to do? You know, obviously anyone handling a gun needs to make sure that it is safe. But if you open that cylinder and you look at the cartridges in there, I don't think you can tell the difference from a live round and a blank round unless you take the bullets out of the chamber.

Starting point is 00:33:04 And is that what we expect him to do? Maybe it is. I don't know the answer to that. But the problem is the head stamp may be different, which is the stamp on the back of the bullet or the base of the bullet where the firing pin strikes it. That may be different from a live round and a blank round. I don't know. But would Alex know that? I don't know that either. But the only way to really tell whether that was a live round or a blank round is to take the bullets out of the gun and look at the nose of the bullet and see if that is or not. But he was the one that handled it. He is the one that fired the shot. He absolutely bears some responsibility also. And I think that he may be bringing in the other actresses and actors to state how it is normally handled. Does an actor, every time they're handled a fire gun, do they always look, take the bullets out and look at the bullets?

Starting point is 00:33:57 Do they do that? Or do they assume, right or wrong, do they assume that the one handed to them that said it's safe is safe? Take a listen. Ever since the shooting death of Helena Hutchins on the set of Rust, Alec Baldwin has claimed he did not pull the trigger. Even after an FBI report contradicting Baldwin's account of the shooting, saying the trigger had to have been pulled for the gun to fire, Baldwin says he didn't pull the trigger. The FBI report says their testing proves the gun could not be made to fire without the pull of the trigger. Accidental discharge testing determined that the firearm used in the shooting, a 45 Colt single action revolver, could not have fired without the trigger being pulled. The FBI report also says with the hammer in the quarter, half cock and fully cocked positions,

Starting point is 00:34:41 the gun could not be made to fire without a pull of the trigger. Ali Baldwin says he didn't pull the trigger. So that may very well be the torpedo into Ali Baldwin's defense. He could rightfully claim, oh, it's all the armorer's fault. That would be a good defense. Do I believe it? No, but he could claim that. But he stuck with his claim.

Starting point is 00:35:02 He never pulled the trigger. And there is nothing worse than a big fat lie landing right in the middle of your pristine defense of blaming Gutierrez-Reed. So to you, Maureen Callahan, DailyMail.com, he's still stuck with that statement, even though the FBI has proven he did pull the trigger. So when you catch the defendant lying, it's hard to believe the rest of their defense. Like, it's her fault, not my fault. Right, Nancy. And to jump off your previous guest's comments, you know, first of all, it is equally Alec Baldwin's fault. He is as culpable as the armorer. Both can be at fault. It's not a binary choice. It's not one or the other. In the days and weeks after this tragedy, I spoke to two veteran experts of firearm safety on Hollywood sets, TV and film. They told me very simple

Starting point is 00:35:59 things. There should be no live rounds. There should have been no dummy rounds in that gun. When you bring a gun to set that the armorer, her, or himself has checked, they then open that weapon in front of the actor and in front of everybody on that set to show that it is empty. They hand it to the actor. The actor examines it themselves. If Alec Baldwin in that scene had been called to put that gun to the temple of his forehead and pulled the trigger. Do we think he would have opened that gun? I think yes. And finally, you are always instructed to never aim a gun at anything or anyone you do not intend to kill. Alec Baldwin pointed that gun at Helena Hutchins and pulled the trigger. Guns do not go off by themselves. If this defense were allowed to stand, anybody ever charged with shooting or killing somebody with a firearm would point to that

Starting point is 00:36:51 defense. Whoops, gun went off by itself. Doesn't happen. Very quickly, we're running out of time, and I got to ask Dale Carson. Dale, I know this is against every fiber of your being as a trial lawyer, but answer succinctly. Okay. The state's got another problem of their own doing. I haven't heard anybody mentioned this yet, but remember against my recommendation and many others, not just me, the state actually dropped charges against Baldwin early on. They now claim, we learned a tough lesson. Yeah. So now the defense can rightfully argue to the jury, hey, they dropped the charges because they didn't believe in the charges.

Starting point is 00:37:36 Now they're bringing them again. Well, actually, they can actually bring witnesses who made that decision, which puts the government in an even less tenable situation, which is certainly what I would do. You'd want the rationale by not prosecuting. Johannes Chamueno, what were you saying? I was saying many things in terms of, again, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed has already been convicted of involuntary manslaughter. She will be the scapegoat, Nancy.

Starting point is 00:38:07 So can we depend on the defense counsel for Alec Baldwin coming in and using that as a means to get Alec Baldwin off the case? Absolutely. 100 percent. And that's what I anticipate will happen going into the case in July. Agree. Paul Zyke, this is your jurisdiction. You are joining us from New Mexico. There, what's the word? The real problem that Alec Baldwin has is the elements of this crime, regardless of his status in Hollywood or, you know, how many actors he calls in for his defense. The burden of proof for this particular statute is very low and the fact that the gun was in his hand statutorily uh he's got a real problem and and as such he should take a plea

Starting point is 00:38:54 a plea deal is my my where i'm at on this because i think he's he's gonna have a real tough time convincing uh a jury that in fact he did not create a sequence of events that created this death. He was in the mix. There's no way to pull yourself out of this. Perfectly said, Paul Zyke. Agree. Guys, let's stop with all the Alec Baldwin for just one moment. And remember, American hero Border Patrol agent Christopher Luna. Luna died with two New York National Guard members protecting our country. He leaves behind his wife, Esmeralda, and two beautiful children, Sarah and Hayden. Agent Christopher Luna, American hero. Nancy Grace signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.

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Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ALEC BALDWIN IN TRIAL CROSSHAIRS? COHORT CALLS JURY IDIOT A**HOLES

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Pet Camera - EBO Air 2

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ALEC BALDWIN IN TRIAL CROSSHAIRS? COHORT CALLS JURY IDIOT A**HOLES

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