Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Alex Murdaugh Life Now

Episode Date: March 14, 2023

Alex Murdaugh now sits in a jail cell, after being convicted of killing his wife Maggie and son Paul, but what does that actually look like?  Murdaugh's attorneys have filed an appeal of his conviction.  In the meantime, the "shoulda, coulda, woulda" theories are floating around about what would have been the outcome if Alex Murdaugh had not taken the stand. Nancy Grace discusses this and more with South Carolina Criminal Defense Attorney Mark Peper.  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Alex Murdoch. Yes, he's been tried. He snotted a lot on the stand he was convicted he was given a chance to throw himself at the mercy of the courts and apologize for all the pain he's caused he didn't have to say i did it i'm sorry i killed him he could have just said i'm sorry i've caused so much pain what did he do he lied right in the judge's face again and went, I'm innocent. That's pretty much all I have to say. That said, what's happening in the world of Alex Murdoch right now? I took a stroll the night of the sentencing and wait, no, it was the night of the verdict. And went down to the county jail.

It was, I don't know, maybe half a mile as the crow flies at most from the courthouse where we all were. I couldn't wait to get out of that parking lot. There was razor wire curled all around the top of it, around the top of the inside. There were huge chain link fences, as there should be. But just imagining him in there where he is supposed to be, I wonder where he is now. You know, I have these visions dancing through my head of Jorn Van Der Sloot in his Peruvian jail who has gotten married and gotten a woman, his wife now, pregnant with at least one child. They get drugs, alcohol, whatever they want there. What is his life going to be like? But don't worry. Hart Putlian, a.k.a. Poot, his defense attorney and the entire team is

working right now to guess what? Get Murdoch out from behind bars. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. With me, a high-profile lawyer very familiar with the case. Practices mostly out of Charleston, South Carolina. Mark Pepper is joining us from the Pepper Law Firm and you can find him at pepperlawfirm.com. Also on Twitter at Pepper Law Firm.

Mark, thanks for being with us. Always a pleasure. Appreciate you having me. You know what? You said that so easily. It just tripped off your tongue when you know I'm going to disagree with every single thing you say. But that said, I can't claim you're not a good lawyer because you are.

You're just who we prosecutors don't want to see coming up the hallway of the courthouse. I like to see the hacks, you know, that just want to get a cheap plea and run away. No, that doesn't happen with Mark Pepper. And you know what? That's what we do. That's what we do. and run away. No, that doesn't happen with Mark Pepper. And you know what? That's what we do. That's what we do. We make each other work hard and that makes the system better. Isn't that the truth? Isn't that the truth? You know, Mark, I've been thinking a lot about this case and before I get into where is Alex Murdoch at this precise moment and what is happening to him and where is he headed and what's

going to happen with his appeal you know i'm still amazed i guess i shouldn't be because you know it's very rare that a leopard changes its spots but there was a chance for him at sentencing, the judge really, you know, he led the horse to water. He really paved the way for him to say, you know what? It was the drugs. That was the monster. It's not who I really am. And without admitting guilt, he could have apologized for causing so much pain in the lives of so many. But instead, of course, he thought of nobody but himself and another thing many well one reporter said that they observed him turn around and say i love you to buster the son that murdoch's son but i was watching murdoch i didn't see him turn around and say anything he stood up and walked out unless he said it before the sentence came down but that was his chance. It was a chance. But you know what? He had a lot of chances to tell the truth or at least do something different.

And despite what was probably some good advice, he refused to address the judge with anything more than proclaiming his innocence. But, I mean, Nancy, does that really surprise you? It certainly didn't surprise me. Because what's the alternative? I mean, if he, you know, was there any chance in your mind that Judge Newman, who had just lost his own son two weeks before this trial started, was there any chance, regardless of how many family members he paraded in there, whether he put on the best mitigation package in the history of the world, was there any chance in your mind that you think Judge Newman was going to give him anything but two consecutive life sentences? No. No.

I don't think so either. No. But hey, if there was any chance at all, that was his chance to go for it. His opportunity to beg, to plead for mercy, to at least, you know, out of just human decency, forget about the sentence, and say, I'm sorry for all the pain that I have caused, even this trial. I'm sorry to my son and my family. I'm sorry to my father and my grandfather.

Their memories have now been stained because of me dragging everybody in here to this trial. I still he could have said all that without admitting guilt. Hey, tell me about Judge Newman's son. Thirty nine years old or mid 30s, at least local lawyer was serving on city council. I mean, you know, just the most genuine guy you can meet and just a tragic medical heart attack. I mean, just out of nowhere. Nobody expected it. It wasn't a known condition to many.

And just out of the blue, he dies two weeks before this case. And having appeared in front of Newman for 20 years, you know, there was a lot of concern that maybe the case would get delayed. But just like he's always done, he had a job to do, and he was going to try this case. Now, I could tell, and I think some other local attorneys could tell, that towards the start of jury selection the first week, his mind was a little elsewhere, rightfully so. He had literally just buried his own son two weeks early, and he's now running the courthouse with a soon-to-be convicted murderer of his own son. So you could tell that there was some hesitation

and desire to be there. Now, that being said, the consummate professional and desire to be there. Now that being said, the consummate professional, he always is. As soon as that trial started, he was Judge Newman and he was simply Judge Newman. And then we got to see kind of a personal side of him during sentencing where he looked Alec in the eye and almost dared him to address the court and even called him out, Nancy. Remember when he said, you know, Alec, what was that quote you said on the stand? He made him repeat it, right? I mean, goading him into give me something here because I just lost a son. And if you recall, which I thought was a very, very poignant moment. During sentencing, you know,

he gave him a life sentence with regards to Maggie. And then he turned to him and said, and with regards to your son, almost tongue in cheek, who I know you love very much, I also sentence you to life in prison consecutively. And to me, that was his way of saying, how dare you come in my courtroom and lie to me? How dare you file a notice of alibi with this court, yet take the stand and admit for the first time that you were there? That was his way of saying, how dare you

come into my court when I've just gone through the tragedy I've gone through and sit here and lie to me and this jury. He said all that without saying any of it, which is who Judge Newman is. Very, very poignant moment towards the end of that trial. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, with me is Mark Pepper. He's a high-profile lawyer based in Charleston, but practices all over. Everybody has a favorite judge, and I'm not asking you to name yours because you're still practicing in front of courts, but one of my favorites was Luther Alverson.

Judge Alverson, I practiced in his courtroom for years, and really all the courtrooms, but his courtroom the most. And he was the oldest judge in the courthouse in the Fulton County Courthouse which is inner city Atlanta and he was 84 I think at before when he finally retired but he would get up every morning and run two miles wow before he came to court now listen to this His theory was he wanted to prove to all the other judges that he was fit to be on the bench because he was so old, he escaped mandatory retirement of the judges at a certain age. So he was grandfathered onto the bench. My point is, you know what a jail count is, right, for each courtroom?

It's how many people on your docket are waiting for trial or a plea and they're sitting in jail? And, you know, Georgia has been under a federal court order forever to keep the jail count down to avoid overcrowding. So we were under pressure to try cases left and right, not plead them out cheap, but try those cases of everybody sitting in the jail. And every week I would wait for the jail count to come out to make sure our courtroom had the lowest jail count. So I was for all those years in Alverson's court on trial every other week, Mark, if you can imagine that. But that said, that was my favorite judge. And Newman reminds me so much of Alverson. Yeah, he does. And it sounds like Judge Alverson was one of a kind. And I wish we

had judges like him. But it's commendable to you too, Nancy, as a prosecutor, you got to move that docket because you're so right. There are thousands and thousands of inmates, all of whom are innocent as they sit there in that jail cell, right? That's right. Until they get their day in court. And kudos to you for moving that docket. That is a problem we have in this country. I didn't really look at it as moving the docket because I wanted everybody to get a fair trial.

Right. And get their day in court and get a fair plea. Right. I didn't want anything shoddy done that would come back on me later. And I wanted the right person to go to jail. I don't want to put anybody in jail. I wanted the right person behind bars,

which leads me to Alex Murdoch. So right now, I guess he's still at Kirkland CI. That's right. That's kind of our holding facility for all new SCDC inmates. Everybody that's sentenced in this state gets shipped up to Columbia, South Carolina. It's at Kirkland. I love the name of it. Kirkland CI Correctional Institution Reception and Evaluation Center.

Reception. That sounds to me like you're going to be met with cookies and Kool-Aid like at Liberty Methodist Church where I grew up. No, it's not exactly that kind of reception. No, it's not. In Georgia, they would call it Jackson. Jackson Diagnostic. It's like you're going to get diagnosed. Well, this is reception and evaluation.

Basically, it covers all felonies, and everybody goes there from the state almost, I think. That's right. And then they get farmed out. They get sent to where they're going to be. What is involved in the evaluation? A couple things. The diagnostics, if you will, the reception, if you will, really consists of a clean haircut. And I don't know if you've seen the most

recent mugshot i saw it it's amazing uh so that's how he was received with a quick shave of the head didn't he have a uh head shaving after his traumatic head injury which he claimed a lot about brain injury and he came into court with a band-aid on right so i've seen him without here before well he'll be there for another two three weeks nancy that's where everybody goes when they're convicted of a felony and they're looking at a significant prison time and from there the evaluation answer question consists of really just a few minor things what are you there for what is your classification now of course he has been convicted of the most heinous crime you can commit in South Carolina, two terms of life imprisonment following convictions of murdering his wife and son. So he is going to be classified as a most violent felon. He will be put in the system as a most violent offender.

And therefore he will eventually be housed at our maximum security prisons. One of our maximum security prisons. Yeah. My guess is because the second element is closest to home. That is going to be Lieber correctional facility. L I E B E R. That's in Ridgeville, South Carolina. That's going to be the closest. Isnal Facility, L-I-E-B-E-R. That's in Ridgeville, South Carolina.

That's going to be the closest. Isn't that where they house the death row inmates? They used to. They're now being housed in the upstate. There was some, SEDC went through some things recently where they transferred them. And that's kind of a work in progress. But yes, Lieber does house death row inmates currently. That's correct.

And I mean, when I say maximum, we're talking you get one hour of outdoor rec time per day. That's it. You get a shower every other day. Isn't it true they have carpentry and woodworking classes? I'm sure they do. I'm sure they do. And that concerns me. Why is he getting to take a class? But also, they have operation behind bars where inmates get to talk to at-risk youths and adults. Well, you know, keep in mind, Nancy, and I don't know how

this gentleman, if you want to use that word, could be rehabilitated but one of the factors that goes into consideration when serving a sentence is to try to rehabilitate the inmate and so he'll have some options to perform some jobs and work duties you know do i want my son getting a life advice from alec murdoch of course not but at the time... Somebody's son is going to. So if we allow that, then we're setting it up to be our child. Is it okay for some other kid to do it and not ours? I don't think so.

He's innocent, Nancy. I mean, you heard him. You heard him tell the judge. Oh yeah, I forgot. I forgot he didn't do it. Okay, let me ask you this. Believe it or not, well, of course we knew this was going to happen. People are whining and complaining that Murdoch did not get true justice. I think he got a huge bonus.

He had like a gift just fall on his head when they didn't seek the death penalty. I'll never understand that. Two dead bodies and he's at the scene of the crime. Hello. But that's it. It's needle in SC, right? Yeah, but there's a lot of politics involved in that decision, which we don't have to get into today. But I don't know.

Why did you say that if you don't want me to ask you about it? What do you mean? Why didn't they seek the DP? That's a real hot topic in South Carolina right now. Well, just throw something out there for me. So we're really struggling with whether or not to put it on the ballot make a referendum uh oh wait are you guys going to get rid of the dp i'm just telling you i'm telling you you in california there there is a push for

that we're having trouble finding the drugs for it always a push for that you know the eighth amendment is real now okay okay? I mean, cruel and unusual punishment, you put somebody in front of a firing squad. Dear Lord in heaven. I'll tell you what's cruel is getting shot down dead in a dog kennel after you see your son executed. I hear you. I hear you. There was a lot of politics

that went into that decision. For whatever reason, it wasn't made. So to your point, he did catch a break. He sure did. Did he get justice? Yeah, because the justice system worked. But Nancy, I will tell you this. Now everybody's whining that the jury didn't deliberate long enough. Listen. You know, I think people are used to TV trials where there are days and days of deliberations.

That's typically not the case. Those are the anomalies. You're right. However, with six weeks of evidence, with over 500 exhibits, all of which the jury would have had access to, with 50 some odd witnesses called, you don't think it's a little quick to deliberate for, by the way, what I heard was 45 minutes, is what I'm hearing, was 45 minutes. That's right. Two jurors have said 45 minutes. No. In fact, since it's been six weeks, they've been hearing damning evidence

for six weeks. And then the defense puts up an expert who's not really an expert in ballistics. He's a great engineer, but not a ballistics expert. And then they put Murdoch on the stand. That just sealed the deal right there. Well, that's what turned it into a one witness case.

That's what took it from two hours to 45 minutes. Hey, you know what, Pepper? With your next murder defendant that you somehow lose control of and he gets up on the stand, because of course it will be a man. But that said, can you please try to teach him how to pinch himself and start crying? Not just the snot. The snot and start crying, not just the snot? The snot was a little excessive. With the snot has to come the tears.

You have my word. I will work on that with my next client. But if I have a next client that takes a stand, it may be my last. Because if my client is not listening to my advice, then what good am I? You've got to protect your client from himself. And I have no doubt that Dick and Jim had that conversation. But when it came down to it, I sure as heck would have protected the record a little bit

and put on the record that I've advised my client not to take the fan, Your Honor, and I want that to be on the record. I didn't hear it. It almost as though they deferred to the client. I didn't hear it either. That bothers me. And I was watching at that time.

And the only thing that happened is Murdoch went on a bathroom break. It's the only thing that happened. Right. Which told us he's getting ready to take the stand. Exactly. You know, I talked to a juror, Nancy, and at the end of the day, for all your viewers that claim he didn't get justice or these people that are whining, you know, at the end of the day, when he took the stand and put himself there at the kennels, it was over. It was over.

Okay. What they literally, I literally think that those two jurors that were not guilty and the one that was kind of indecisive, had he not taken the stand and put himself there, I think there would have been enough reasonable doubt as to whether or not he was at the scene to at least cause them to hesitate. And all it takes is one juror to hold out. But once he took that stand and put himself there. That's what I always say. The state's got to have 12. That's right.

Defense only has to have one. That's right. Just one. That's right. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know what? I think you're right, Pepper. I really do.

It turned into one witness case. I think that they could have been argued. He wasn't there. That wasn't his voice. He kept saying it wasn't his voice. And you know, Hart Pootling, for all the H-E-L-L I gave him from day one till the end, he has a way with people. And I think I told you this. He reminds me of my old co-anchor, Johnny Cochran, God rest his

soul. He could walk into our program, as he often did, completely unprepared. And I had all these copious notes and stacks of notes of scribbling all over it. And he was so charming and he knew the law very well, which you really have to know to try cases. But, you know, he could talk his way around a blizzard. And I get the same idea from all the lawyers I talked to about Hart Putley. And he's just one of those people, when he walks in the room, everybody goes to him and wants to talk to him, wants to hear his stories and all of his yarns he spins. And I tell you, if he had been allowed to give, and of course, Griffin did a great job. But if he had been allowed to give, and of course, Griffin did a great job. But if he had been allowed to give the heartstring part of the closing argument in his conversational, charming way,

and Murdoch had not taken the stand. I agree. He may have gotten one juror to have a doubt whether he was at the scene. Because you know how he kept hitting, how could he kill Mags and Paul Paul? To find him guilty, to quote Mr. R. Putnam here, you would have to find him to be a complete maniac that within 10 minutes, he executed his son, executed his wife, and then went on about his business. That was gaining traction. That was gaining traction. And I totally agree. If Murdoch doesn't take the stand, and ego is a four-letter word, right? I mean, you just,

you can't compete with ego. And he was always going to take the stand. There was nothing Jim and Dick could have done about it. And sure enough, he took the stand, and it was his downfall. But if he wouldn't have, I totally agree. And remember, Dick asked the judge, Judge Newman, would you consider allowing us to break up the closing argument? You know, the worst you can say is no. So you always ask for it. Of course, Newman says, I'm not familiar with that rule because it doesn't exist. So no, you know, y'all need to pick one. And at the end of the day, you know, and Jim did his best to be good. I thought Jim highlighted. But I agree. If he doesn't take the stand.

Oh, I thought Jim did a great job. If Murdoch doesn't take the stand. I thought Griffin did a really good job. You know, he just doesn't have the ability to look a juror in the eye like Mr. Harpootlian does, to your point. So what's it like where he is right now in Kirkland CI? Awful. Awful. Absolutely awful. With the worst of the worst, with everybody that's been convicted within 10 to 14 days prior to him and 10 to 14 days after him. Well, good. Then he fits right in.

If you're trying to make me feel sorry for him, that's not working. Well, yeah, I don't want anyone suffer, but I want him in jail never to get back out. I don't think you have to worry about that, Nancy. I really don't. I think this appeal would have had some legs had he not testified. And this is an interesting point that I think your viewers really need to understand. I think they had pretty good grounds to keep all that financial stuff out under 404B. I just don't see it. If you're going to take care of it as motive, fine. Maybe it meets that requirement.

But when you start crossing the line into him just being a bad person, that is an error of law. Now, the question becomes, would it have made a difference? In other words, would the outcome have been different? As soon as he takes the stand, it doesn't matter, does it? That's going to be their biggest problem on appeal. Now, I think that's like the litmus test. Was he telling the truth? That's it. Yep. I completely agree. I think had he remained silent, used his Fifth Amendment right, especially if you would have gotten that quick of a verdict, then the argument would be if it was an error of law, then it had to have made a difference in the case because they only deliberated for two hours, really 45 minutes, if you want to be specific. And of the six weeks in testimony, hell, five of the weeks was about the financial stuff. So had he not taken the stand, I think they're on pretty good legal ground for an appeal. But it ain't going to matter because our court of

appeals is going to pull up all these cases. And I heard a stat the other day. First of all, when you're talking about 404B, only 6% of appeals in our country are overturned. Of those 6%. Hey, you're talking law, you're talking how much I hate that. 404B, you mean like reputation, prior bad act? Prior bad acts, right. By rule in South Carolina and in most states, you can't introduce evidence of, for instance, in this case, all the financial crimes, all the lies that he told to Chris Wilson, to his law partners. You can't, that doesn't come into evidence unless, unless the defendant brings it in himself,

which that didn't happen. Right. he did it happened during the defense's chief in case you're you're right but but prior to that they were using it as motive okay typically that doesn't come in which could be reversible error but once the defendant takes the stand it would have come in through the defendant right right? So that's where everybody that thinks, oh, it's coming back on appeal, the judge made an error and it would have made a difference, that's where I disagree in that once he takes the stand, of those cases that get overturned, only 1% get overturned when the defendant takes the stand.

So he's got a 1% chance. Well, let me ask you this. You say he took the stand and the 4-0, let me just say the- 4-4-B. I want to refer to it as prior bad act evidence for people to have a- There you go. Why do you say he necessarily would have come in once he takes a stand? Well, if you remember his direct examination, his direct examination opened the door to all of the financial crimes.

In other words, Mr. Griffin started it with, you're a liar, aren't you? Yes, I did lie. Did you lie to SLED? Yes. Why did you lie to SLED? And then he came up with some BS answer about being paranoid or whatever. He had the boat issue. He had the boat issue. He had the boat issue yeah the boat he had the boat

issue right in his 9-1-1 call the 9-1-1 call he lied right so they would have addressed that through direct examination which means on cross it all would have come in speaking of the boat issue sounds like murdoch's got a trial date set for the death of the teen girl Mallory Beach killed in the boating accident. That happened in 2019. It's set to go forward August 14. Right. But at this point, who cares? Not that I don't care about Mallory Beach, but I mean, on Alex Murdoch's team, they're like, hey, I'm behind bars for two life sentences.

I don't care about the Mallory Beach wrongful death. But it does matter because I believe that the appellate judges, while they're not supposed to look at that, they are going to look at all the evidence that comes out in that case. I mean, Murdoch's team may go, who cares? But I would be concerned about the appellate court hearing about it. And not only that, what about any money left for Buster Murdoch? I don't think there is any. I mean, you know, he's got, he had some, I guess there was. Did he have 500 grand on his mom's side?

Yeah, and the receivership. But I mean, there's so much litigation going on, Nancy, with regards to those estates and finances and all. The lawyers are getting paid. But as much as I hate to say this for the Beach family, because Lord knows they deserve all and the lawyer the lawyers are getting paid but as much as i hate to say this for the beach family because lord knows they deserve all the money in the world they can get i don't know there's gonna be enough to go around or or nowhere near enough uh ever is there to provide justice in the wrongful death case but you know all this money is just being

tied up with receivers and the state attorneys busteruster may be entitled to a little bit, but at the end of the day, he's worthless in more ways than one, but he's certainly worthless financially. You know, even though the Murdoch defense team may be going, who cares about the Mallory Beach civil trial? I also think it's incredibly important for the people involved in that case to see it go forward. Agree. So their voices are heard too. Agree. It's just, you know, all this time I think Mallory Beach's family have been on pins and needles waiting for Murdoch to be convicted. And I can't imagine how that feels because now that's over now they really have to confront the fact that she's gone the court battles are nearing an end and now they're left without life without their

daughter that i didn't even say that because i immediately think of my daughter and my son and i mean that's you know my reason for living is them i couldn't agree more. No, to help them. I could not agree more. And they don't have that. Nope. It's going to be another long year for the Beach family. I think these financial crimes will come for trial soon as well. Now, how in the world?

I mean, he's already pled guilty to him essentially by taking the stand. You know, if he was a man, just own up to everything at this point. Which he's not. Well, that's a that's wishful thinking. That's not going to happen. You're right. You know, I'm just anxious to see what's going to happen on appeal. I'm sure that his new appellate team, whenever they come in, is going to claim ineffective assistance of counsel. I don't know how they're going to do that, but they are. They're going to argue about venue. They're going to argue about the jury.

They're going to argue about the prior bad act evidence coming in. They've got a whole plethora of things they're going to argue. Are they going to be successful? No. You know, the likelihood of somebody getting a reversal on appeal once they take the stand is incredibly low, just statistically. One percent. It's really low.

One percent. Okay, you heard it from the horse's mouth. You're hearing Mark Pepper, high-profile attorney, rumored to be a criminal defense attorney. The Pepper Law Firm at PepperLawFirm.com. Mark Pepper, thank you for joining us during the trial. My pleasure. And now the Alex Murdoch story goes on.

Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.