Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ALEX MURDAUGH TAKES THE STAND IN 'HAIL MARY'

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Alex Murdaugh took the stand today in his own defense. The accused killer stated emphatically that he did not shoot his wife and son. Murdaugh did admit, however, that he lied to police. He said his opioid addiction made him paranoid of police.  The disgraced attorney repeatedly admitted to a state cross-examine that he stole from clients and was remorseful  Murdaugh's testimony continues on Friday.  Joining Nancy Grace today: Eric Bland - Founder/Partner- Bland Richer, LLP Attorneys at Law; Twitter: @TheEricBland Dr. Angela Arnold -Psychiatrist, Expert in the Treatment of Pregnant/Postpartum Women; Former Assistant Professor of Psychiatry, Obstetrics and Gynecology: Emory University; Former Medical Director of The Psychiatric Ob-Gyn Clinic at Grady Memorial Hospital, and Voted My Buckhead’s Best Psychiatric Practice of 2022 Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, and Host of YouTube channel- ‘The Interview Room’ Dr. Michelle DuPre - Former Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant Anne Emerson - Senior Investigative Reporter, WCIV ABC News 4 (Charleston, SC), and Host of Award-Winning DAILY Podcast: "Unsolved South Carolina: The Murdaugh Murders, Money and Mystery;” Twitter: @AnneTEmerson   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. In the last moments, Alex Murdoch has just stepped down from the witness stand. That's right. Alex Murdoch on the stand in his own defense, waiving his right to invoke silence under the Fifth Amendment. He has been on direct examination so far. He's hitting a lot of softballs in that courtroom.

We're wondering what's going to happen on cross-examination. The jury has just left the courtroom for lunch. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation. First of all, here's the biggest thing that happened in the courtroom as he stuttered and stammered, turned red in the face, sucked his teeth, and his mouth went dry. Alex Murdoch insists he did not kill Maggie and Paul. Take a listen to our cut one. On June 7th, 2021, did you take this gun or any gun like it and shoot your son Paul in the chest in the feed room at your property off Moselle Road? No, I did not. Mr. Murdoch, did you take this gun or any gun like it and blow your son's brains out on June 7th or any day or any time?

No, I did not. 300 blackout such as this and fired into your wife Maggie's leg, torso, or any part of her body? No, I did not. Did you shoot a 300 blackout into her head, causing her death? Mr. Griffin, I didn't shoot my wife or my son anytime. Ever. There you see him, sucking his teeth, shaking his head up and down, as if saying yes, while his mouth was saying no. He goes on to try and explain why the very night of the murders, just feet away from his wife and son's dead bodies, he started lying

to police. Take a listen to our cut to. Mr. Murdoch, is that you on the kennel video at 844 p.m. on June 7th, the night Maggie and Paul were murdered? It is. Were you in fact at the kennels at 8 44 p.m. on the night Maggie and Paul were murdered? I was. Did you lie to SLED agent Owen and deputy Laura Rutland on the night of June 7th and told them that you stayed at the house after dinner? I did lie to them. Did you lie to agent Owen and Agent Croft on the follow-up interview on June 10th that the last time you saw Maggie and Paul was at dinner? I did lie to them. And in the interview of August 11th, did you tell Agent Owen and Agent Croft, did you lie to them by telling them that you were not down at the kennels on that night?

Yes. Okay, with me and all-star panel, I'm going to take you back in the courtroom in just a moment so you can see more of Alex Murdoch's testimony on the stand. With me and all-star panel, but first I want to go out to, hold on, do we have Ann Emerson yet? No, she's making her way out straight out to eric bland connected to this case through the satterfield family eric bland i i don't get it he started lying the very night of the murders how could he even concoct a lie the very night of the murders well guilty people always can concoct lies, Nancy. And it is another

lie because he had no reason to distrust the police. He was a solicitor. His grandfather, his father were solicitors. He had no reason to distrust SLED. There was nothing that SLED had done on the night of the murders that he would begin as lying so the other thing that was i think that was poignant was he just turned on michelle smith a lovely lady who takes care of his mother and said she lied about the blue tarp and she lied about the 30 or 40 seconds so what we have is if the lies are told by him, there's a reason for it. There's an explanation. But if somebody else tells something that is detrimental to him, they are lying and you need to believe them.

Again, he put his hand on a Bible. So we're supposed to believe him today, even though he's a thief, even though he's a drug addict. And you prosecuted many cases. There's two people that can't there's two people that can't be reprimanded nancy drug thieves and pedophiles and he's a thief okay i'm trying to hear through all the commotion at the courthouse eric bland do you refer to the housekeeper that murdoch just said on the stand was lying and i have it titled in my 20 pages of notes I've taken since he took the stand, The Blue Tarp Lie.

Alex Murdoch says, I did not take a blue tarp or a rain jacket into my mom's home. Now, he also says, I never, quote, fixed witnesses or tried to influence police officers. And I'm telling you, number one, you're right, Bland. He is calling that lady a liar. And she was really convincing on the stand, one of the best witnesses they've had. And he has now opened up the door to try to fix witnesses and influence police officers. Now, I have, I got to tell you something, and this pains me as a former prosecutor. I have not been, for the first time in court, I have not been impressed with the state at all because they're letting a free flow

of narrative. I mean, I said earlier, what's he going to do? Talk about the first time he fell off a bike and scraped his knees when he's a little boy. I mean, how far is this going to go? There needs to be objection, objection, objection, objection, and breaking up that testimony. But okay, it hasn't happened. Do you think they'll figure out that the door has been opened to influencing officers and fixing testimony? I do. And I also have been talking to my friends in the courtroom. Six jurors have turned away from him. So right now, half of the jurors have turned away and are not listening to him. Don't forget, every time he's wrong, he gets a free pass under his testimony. Oh, I was wrong about the timeline. I was wrong of a couple hours.

But every time somebody else gives testimony that's detrimental to him, it's a lie. Nancy, I'm telling you, I trust this justice system, but we're seeing a pollution of it being done by Alex on this witness stand and his own lawyers for counting this type of false testimony. Guys, I'm hearing the other guests trying to break in. I want you to hear one more thing, though. Guys, Christine, could you play Murdoch's testimony when he's trying to explain why he lied? This is cut three. Why did you lie to Agent Owen, Agent Croft, and Deputy Rutland about the last time you saw Maggie and Paul? As my addiction evolved over time, I would get in these situations or circumstances where I would get paranoid thinking. And it could be anything that triggered it.

It might be a look somebody gave me. It might be a reaction somebody had to something I did. It might be a policeman following me in a car. That night, June 7th, after finding Mags and Paul, don't talk to anybody without Danny with you. All my partners were just repeatedly telling me that. I'm sitting in a police car with David Owen asking me about my relationship with my wife and my son.

And all those things coupled together after finding them, coupled with my distrust for SLED, caused me to have paranoid thoughts. Okay, now hold on just a moment there. Please, prosecutors, use what he just said. Didn't all the lawyers come up on the stand and state that they were there that night as friends? And now when your wife and your son are dead on the floor of the dog kennel, their bodies just torn apart with bullets, you're worried about telling the truth because it might make you look bad? Oh, no, no. might make you look bad oh no no that's the time that you tell the whole truth and nothing but the

truth because you want to find the real killer i mean straight out to chris mcdonough uh high profile former homicide investigator now star of the interview room. Wouldn't you think if, I'm just telling you, I would tell the police whatever they wanted to know right then because I would want their killer caught. A thousand percent, Nancy. I mean, you can't script this. from the get-go is he is, his testimony is based upon the investigative facts that he has learned up to this date. And he, you know, by pulling in the fact that that, the very first words out of his mouth, which could backfire a thousand percent for the defense to take on right away, you know, did you lie that evening? I mean, we're watching in real time the way he adapts, the way he deflects, calculates, and then qualifies his answers. And we would call this guy the helper or the salesman. And those five steps to a sale, prospect, personalize, promote, create, and close, all he's looking for is one juror to close by his testimony today.

Okay, Eric Bland. Now, Eric, this is a yes, no answer. Okay? Did you think Murdoch was going to take the stand? No. OK. I'm with you on that. I thought he may believe he was smart enough to outsmart everybody in the courtroom and want to take the stand. But I thought Hart Pullian would, you know, strong arm him not to take the stand but when he announced when they announced that their client wanted to take a bathroom break before the next witness I'm like he's taking a stand he is take why else would he want a bathroom break before an extended period of time on the stand you know I'm thinking about what's really happening here Eric this is what's happening yeah go ahead ordinarily there isn't a

defense attorney in the world that would recommend to his client under these circumstances given all the other 404b evidence that has come in and once you get on the stand you waive your fifth to take the stand however i think in alex's mind he's saying nancy look i'm going to be convicted of all the financial crime stuff and i'm going to get LWAP life without parole probably on that stuff. So what do I have to lose? That's kind of, I believe it's thought process. I think it's bad because if you get convicted of murder, it's 30 to life. And I think this judge, if he gets a conviction on murder, is going to give him life. Whereas under the financial crimes, maybe he gets 40 years, maybe he gets 30. Then you get in state time, 52% time off. He gets out maybe when he's 67, 60, 70 years old. I think it was the worst decision by lawyers I've

ever seen, but I could be proven wrong if there's that one juror. Eric, let's just get real. Are you telling me that the state of South Carolina would keep a thief in jail and use a bed space when they want to put a child molester, a killer, a serial killer,

somebody that's a bomber or an arsonist? Oh no. They're taking that bed and the thief, the white collar criminal, they're getting out. He won't be in there 15 years. He won't even be in there 10 years on $9 million theft. That's not going to happen. Do I like it? No. Is it true? Yes. He'll probably get out on all that theft in about eight, nine years max because they need the bed space. That's the harsh reality. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Now, this is what I was going to tell everybody.

Everybody on the panel, jump in on this. This is what's happening. The defense waits. They listen to the state's case. They write down everything they need to explain away. And you practice, practice, practice with the client. Then you put him on the stand and you have him respond to all of those issues. This testimony is carefully constructed after the defense has seen the state's case.

And now they are responding to issues brought up by the state. That is what is happening right now. Eric, could you explain that? Yeah, it's a total rehearsed Broadway performance. And like the first guest said, he's been crafting this story over the last two years as he's learned more and more evidence. However, his answers are too polished. And there's 24 ears and 24 eyes on that jury. And they can smell the BS meter a mile away. And it's just too many coincidences, too many explanations. I don't believe it's going to hold water. However, there could be one juror. But I also disagree with you on the aspect of the sentencing. Don't forget that the federal government is waiting to charge him on all the money laundering crimes. That's a whole other thing. The reason they're not doing that is because.

You know, you get the feds in it and he's looking at serious jail time. But if it's just state theft, oh, yeah, he'll be out seven or eight years. Now, I can tell you this. According to Alex Murdoch, he was, quote, afraid and distrustful of SLED law enforcement the night of the murders. But as Bland has just pointed out, he was a local solicitor, a prosecutor. You're not afraid of the cops. They're your best witnesses on the stand. So why was he afraid of them now, lo and behold, the night of the cops, they're your best witnesses on the stand. So why was he afraid of them? Now, lo and behold, the night of the murders. I want you to hear him talking about his paranoid

thoughts in our cut three. Why did you lie to Agent Owen, Agent Croft and Deputy Rutland about the last time you saw Maggie and Paul? As my addiction evolved over time, I would get in these situations or circumstances where I would get paranoid thinking. And it could be anything that triggered it. It might be a look somebody gave me. It might be a reaction somebody had to something I did. It might be a policeman following me in a car. That night, June 7th, after finding Mags and Paul, don't talk to

anybody without Danny with you. All my partners were just repeatedly telling me that. I'm sitting in a police car with David Owen asking me about my relationship with my wife and my son. And all those things coupled together after finding them, coupled with my distrust for SLED, caused me to have paranoid thoughts. Caused me to have paranoid thoughts. But he didn't have any paranoid thoughts until he got in the car with the police. Then he started lying. Nancy. Yeah, jump in quickly.

Can you imagine a solicitor telling the world I shouldn't cooperate with the police when my wife and my son are murdered? Can you imagine a lawyer who took an oath to uphold the Constitution and the law and he's a solicitor is advocating from the witness stand? Don't cooperate with the police when your wife and son are murdered. You know, another thing I noticed, joining me, I'm hearing in my ear right now. Ann Emerson is with us senior investigative reporter WCIV and star of Unsolved South Carolina the Murdoch murders money and mystery and another thing I saw him doing very artfully is explaining why he didn't hear the gunshots. He said that, and it was very circuitous. He claimed that Maggie had asked him to come out to the kennel.

Don't know why. And that he had said no. That he and Maggie had eaten and he had been sweating. Took a shower. He laid down on the sofa. But then suddenly, he has a change of of heart and goes to see his mom. Now listen to this. He said he laid down. He just artfully wove this in. I had the air conditioner going. The TV was always going, and I just left to go see my mom, then I texted them why not just go down to the kennel go hey I'm leaving guys because that did not fit into his scenario I mean he laid

it all out and I had the air-conditioning going so I couldn't hear the TV was going so I couldn't hear he laid it all out very artfully and he absolutely did Nancy and if you're watching him he's watching the jurors that's what he was doing he is absolutely you know trying this case right he is a lawyer on the stand so he's looking at the jury the entire time gauging their reaction waiting for good pauses he's been working on this story since he felt like he needed to as soon as he needed to come up with all of these uh to weave in all of this information that you're talking

about from the television that was on to the ac it just fits perfectly with what he needs the jurors to understand about what was going on that night. So it is absolutely, it is absolutely, feels very much a story that he has been able to work through in his mind and get to where he needs to and felt like he was ready to do it today. So he went off. Guys, I got to tell you something. As much as I think Alex Murdoch murdered his wife and son, he is doing a really good job on the stand. Now, granted, this is direct examination. It's

rehearsed. He knows exactly what's going to come next, and he's doing a good job. And like Ann Emerson is saying, he's looking right at the jury, right in the face like a snake charmer, going back and forth. He says something, he watches their reaction. Then he says something else, then he watches their reaction. He's looking right at them. And if you've been in that courtroom, you know he's only about maybe 10, 12 feet away from them. He's up close and personal with the jurors. Now, take a listen to Hour Cut 7 as he is describing his wife, now dead, asking him to come down to the kennels. Hour Cut 7.

Maggie wanted to go to the kennels. I had eaten dinner. I laid back on the couch where I was sitting. Maggie wanted to go to the kennels. And she asked me to go. And I didn't go at that time. I didn't want to go. Why didn't you want to go? It was hot't I didn't go at that time I didn't want to go why why didn't you want to go it was hot um I just had a shower I knew I'd end up doing more work sweating more the dogs is

always a chaotic scene and I just didn't want to go right then she left and pawpaw was gone and did you stay in the house yes for. For how long? Not long. I laid back on the couch, put my feet up, and like many times when Maggie asked me to do something that I didn't want to do or didn't start out doing, I changed my mind and decided I'm going to ride up there. And I did. And how did you get to the kennels? I went on the golf cart. Which would explain why we don't see his car door open up and close or any movement on the GPS system. before nine o'clock and that the next day well into the next day when the housekeeper gets there she finds water still around the the floor is that what we're supposed to believe but now I

want you to listen how comfortable he is as he's talking about something I don't think he's lying about. And that would be the kennels, the sunflowers, the dogs, all of that which may have actually been true. He doesn't look away. He doesn't turn red. He doesn't suck on his lips. His mouth doesn't go dry. Take a listen

to our cut eight. Grady's chasing the guineas. Paul's fooling with Rogan's dog, Cash. Maggie's just kind of standing there watching the dogs. Bubba catches the chicken. What'd you do after you got the chicken out of Bubba's mouth? I got out of there. I left.

I went back to the house. And what'd you do when you got back to the house? I laid down on the couch. I'm not positive. I dozed off for a minute or didn't doze off for a minute, but I got up off of the couch and I made up my mind I was going to visit my mom. Okay, straight out to Dr. Angela Arnold, renowned psychiatrist at AngelaArnoldMD.com. Weigh in, Dr. Angie. You know, Nancy, one of the things that I'm wondering about is this paranoia that he talks about. And if he was so paranoid, then I do not understand why he wasn't paranoid when he came upon his dead son and wife that someone was going to be laying in

wait to kill him. I don't understand why he wasn't scared about that. And you can't turn paranoia on and off. Also, I completely agree with you, Nancy. It's funny how there will be times when he's running through his repertoire about what went on. And it does sound a little bit more believable. But I think he talks too much. I think that's why they're letting him talk. He says things that maybe he shouldn't be saying. And he's giving people more information than they're even asking for. I find that very interesting also. And I think that they're going to use that against him at some point.

But the paranoia, the paranoia is a big thing. Does he turn his paranoia on and off and why wasn't he scared that he was going to be shot when he came across their two bodies at the kennel yeah you know dr michelle dupree uh pathologist medical examiner former detective dr dupree his paranoia that evening only sets in when the cops start talking to him I mean if you're paranoid because of drugs wouldn't you be crazy paranoid when you find two dead bodies and run from the scene and go hide in the car get away I mean if you're paranoid due to drug addiction, he seemed to hold it in check to call 911 and speak coherently on the phone. But when the cops start questioning him, the paranoia sets

in. Exactly, Nancy. Again, I think this whole thing is bogus. I think that he has a very carefully crafted explanation for the discrepancies in the state's case. I think that he is too emphatic when he makes the denials of some of these things and I think that he is trying so hard to discredit some very very credible witnesses like Shelley. I don't think it's really working. I hope the jury can see through this because when he does talk about the sunflower field and other things it just rolls right off the tongue very easily, but not so much when you start talking about the details of what really happened that night. Yeah, you know what, Dr.

Michelle Dupree, you're right. Take a listen to Hour Cut 5. It's exactly what she just said. I'd known that CB, the guy that worked for us, had sprayed the sunflowers. I knew about that, but I'd been out of town. I didn't know they were dead. Paul let me know they had died. So we had to replant the dove field. It's a big social part of having property. People would come, and so the dove field was a big deal.

So when the sunflowers got killed, we knew they were dead. Paul was coming home. Mr. Murr, did you take 300 blackouts such as this and fire it into your wife Maggie's leg, torso, or any part of her body? No, I did not. Did you shoot a.300 blackout into her head, causing her death? Mr. Griffin, I didn't shoot my wife or my son any time. Ever. I hear Eric Bland jumping in. Go ahead, Eric. There's two things that I think are really important. One happened with Nolan Tootin, the witness before Alex this morning that is really interesting.

He confirmed that no one would ever know where Paul would be staying. He could be staying in Charleston, Somerville, Columbia, Greenville. So how would a killer know where he was going to be that night in order to come and kill him because of the boating accident that's number one and number two the the thing that really bothers me more than anything alex called 13 different people and texted four different people including paul's best friend three times and called him before he called his only living son, Buster, 40 minutes later to tell him that his mother and brother were killed. I find that very curious.

I want to follow up on what you just said, Eric Bland and Emerson. I want you to take a listen to Our Cut 13. Now, think about what Eric Bland just pointed out. And he's right. If this was somehow a hit on Paul Murdoch because of the boat crash killing Mallory Beach. And Maggie just happened to be there at the time. How would anyone have known how to find Paul Murdoch. And I want you to take a listen. Him already developing an alternate reality in our cut 13. Listen. Allie, we just heard you say I should have known. What are you referring to? I said, Paul, say, I should have known.

What are you referring to? I said, Pawpaw, I should have known. What were you referring to? I was referring to Pawpaw got so many threats. Didn't take serious. Think twice about I'm just telling him Paul I should have known

what kind of threats did you understand Paul was receiving he got the most vile threats I mean the stuff that was on social media you couldn't believe it it was so over the top truthfully we didn't think anything about it eric bland that's exactly what you were talking about if there were threats that they were

so afraid of why didn't they go to police he is the police nancy he's the solicitor he controls the entire department everybody who works for the police department knows the murdals they are hundred year solicitors if my son or my daughter were threatened the first call i would make is to the police to go on record about it it doesn't make any sense because it's not true they didn't listen you know what they didn't introduce one there were they didn't enter the defense has not introduced one single social media text message or instagram or facebook that paul was under threats and alex said it was all over the internet and all over social media. All they had to do was show us that. You know, another thing, Eric Bland, it is unconstitutional, as interpreted by case law,

for the state to comment on a defendant's right to remain silent. However, if they bring up witnesses that can bolster or corroborate their story and then don't produce those witnesses the state can attack it and this is exactly what's happening here all of these quote vile threats on paul after the boat crash who what where why why didn't you go to cops i will be stunned if the state doesn't pick up on that and tear him a new rear end eric i agree go ahead nancy i i wanted to i wanted to like pop in there for a second you know i've got a teenager um you're going you know through that as well nancy with with social media i bet you know what we have learned is that the kids are tracking each other all the time. So that's a, that's,

there's, there's two sides of that coin, right? One of which is, yes, I think the defense could show that his friends knew exactly where Paul was at any given time because he's on Snapchat all the time. And that's how, you know, people find teenagers these days. Like they know where they are because, you know, because of Snapchat. So I don't think that's a huge mystery uh what what i do think is a very mysterious is what eric bland brought up uh he was very astute and saying you know well then why aren't they pulling all of the social media i was thinking the same thing as we were sitting in there if i'm thinking it eric's thinking it you know the jury's thinking it guys uh we we see Alex Murdoch repeatedly lying to police, but he is blaming his, quote,

drug-induced paranoia and his fear and distrust of law enforcement as to why he lied. But I find it very curious to Chris McDonough, former homicide detective handling literally hundreds of homicides, that while his wife and son were lying there dead he had the wherewithal to suddenly distrust them and lie that's my big concern that he is lying almost immediately about the events that night I mean because it would be very important wouldn't it Chris McDonough to be able to tell the cops, hey, they were alive

at 847 because I was in the kennel and there's a Snapchat to show it. There's a video to show it. There's a message to Rogan, Rogan Gibson, showing what time they were last alive. So whoever killed them had to be watching because then I left to go to my mom's and when I get back one hour later they're dead so you need to go check the parameters you need to check uh ring doorbell cams in the area anything to figure out who could have been watching me leave you're you're a thousand percent right again Nancy I mean and and if we think about overlaying the statement, apology statement is what we'll call it, while he was in rehab to the SLED officers, you see the same type of behavior taking place there as you saw, you know, taking place when he first took the stand. of some of the simple phrases that he uses. And I'm hoping the prosecutor's on target here. And I can only imagine what you're thinking if you had a chance.

But listen to this short list real fast. Unintentional, I think, I believe, I don't know, not exactly sure, I don't remember. Sure helps looking at the records. Can't tell unless I had the details. And the list goes on, and that's the short list. This guy is lying every second of the moment he opens his mouth. I'm very surprised the state is kicked back like they're lounging on a recliner.

They, I would have thought, would be pacing back and forth like a tiger waiting to jump in every time they can make an objection hold on i think i've still got eric bland with me what were you saying yes i just uh wrote that list down and i just sent it to uh solicitor waters uh i've been communicating with him every single day and he welcomes everything that anybody wants to give him and he reads it and he comments back okay you know thank you for that guys we're taking you back into the courtroom to hear what alex murdoch said on the stand now remember this is under direct examination i hope he will be questioned severely on cross exam Right now he's tailoring all of his testimony to respond to issues brought up by the state

in their case. Take a listen to our Cut 4. On June the 7th, I wasn't thinking clearly. I don't think I was capable of reason. And I lied about being down there. And I'm so to Grandma and Papa T. I'm sorry to both of our families. Most of all, I'm sorry to Mags and Pawpaw. I would never intentionally do anything to hurt either one of them. Ever.

Straight out to Ann Emerson joining us wciv abc and okay hold on satellite down on and you know i'm very curious as to how the jury is responding to what he is saying on the on the stand um you know very often to you dr michelleupree, you've been in so many courtrooms that the jurors don't know how to respond. But when you have jurors actually looking away from the defendant, that's a very bad sign. Absolutely, Nancy. And, you know, he just continues to lie. He lied about not ever wearing the blue raincoat. And yet the DNA, when they tested that for possession or ownership of that,

it clearly came back to Alex. I mean, this is another blatant lie. And his testimony is just filled with those. You know, I'm very curious, Chris McDonough, about the nonverbal messages that are being sent in the courtroom and how the jury may be responding. They can't take notes. They're not taking notes like we are. What do you make of how he is addressing the jury so carefully? Well, he is very specific about how he's answering his questions. And that comes from obviously years of experience in a courtroom. What's really interesting about that last clip you just played is he was very methodical in how he answered it.

However, he used the word intentionally. I would never intentionally. So what does that mean? Does that mean he unintentionally did something? Does it mean his paranoia took over? I think the prosecutor should really go after that comment right there. And that may break him loose into a thought process that he wasn't anticipating. Correct. I mean, I wonder if it's dawned on the jurors that he is behaving this way because he's under the influence of opioids. Can't they connect two plus two equals four? What else would he do if he was high on drugs? Would he commit a double murder?

Let's take a listen to more in our cut six of how Murdoch is explaining away issues brought up by the state. The clothes that we saw in that Snapchat video, was that the clothes you had at work that day? Yes, those are the clothes I had on at work that day. On June 7th, how tall were you and how much did you weigh? I'm a hair over 6'4", right at 6'4". On June the 7th, I was about 265 pounds, 264, 265. When you're outside, riding around, do you get hot and sweaty? Absolutely.

I mean, Paul and I had done some things. We unloaded the bulldozer, cleaned the bulldozer. We fooled around. Yeah, I mean, I sweated. I was, you know, I was heavy. And taking prescription pills also makes you sweat worse, or at least taking oxycodone makes you sweat. So was it unusual for you to take a shower when you got back to the house?

Not at all. After you took a shower what did you change into? I changed into the clothes that you've seen in this trial. Shorts and shirt. Okay there we see him very calmly explaining away the wardrobe change. Okay the wardrobe change. Okay, the wardrobe change. How did that strike you, Eric Bland? Just another one of his lies. He's saying that he sweats a lot.

It was a benign change of clothes. Nancy, you know, they're going to use the drug use to their advantage. But let me explain something, and you can say it better than anybody. The jails are full of people who take drugs and commit crimes. No state has a defense of criminality because I'm on drugs. He knew enough to steal from his clients for 20 years. He knew enough to lie to all his law partners and family and friends. Nancy, I know we're frustrated because we're seeing a lack of objection, but there's so much fodder for cross-examination. I'm confident that Creighton Wooders will bring

the heat. Well, he's done a great job so far. And, you know, I've gotten tons of emails. We're looking at everything on social media. So many people believe he's doing a good job on direct, and I've got to tell you, I agree with you. I'm picking it apart because that's what I'm trained to do. I'm seeing lies and inconsistencies. I'm seeing him tailoring his direct examination to address the issues brought up by the state, explaining them away. That's what I see happening, but he's coming across, I believe, fairly well, but is it enough to explain away the fact that it is not feasible for him to be at the scene of the murders minutes, minutes, three or four minutes before the murders. Then he miraculously leaves and he escapes murder. And then he comes back within the hour and lo and behold, he finds the bodies and immediately starts lying. Is it

feasible that Maggie's phone was traveling? What was it traveling, Sidney? Was it traveling at 45 miles an hour? Was her phone traveling along with him? And then if his car shows it slows down long enough to throw a phone out the window, can his testimony overcome that? Well, as a matter of fact, if the jury grows to like him, if the jury grows to believe that he is credible, yes, it can overcome even the facts in this case. He even addresses a Google search he does just a few feet away from his wife and son's body. Take a listen to Hour Cut 14. There's an indication, Alec, that at 10-22-09,

you opened a group text message from Michael Gunn stating, she brought the heat from Miami boys. Were you reading text messages from Michael Gunn right after you got off with the 911 operator? I heard him ask that question. I can promise you I wasn't reading any text messages. At 10 40 p.m. you did a google search or safari browser search for Whaley's at Edisto while your wife and son are laying dead on the ground. Did you do that? No. Whaley's is a restaurant at Edisto that we ate at a lot lot of times we got takeout from a lot of times, so I'm assuming it was in my search history,

pulling up the restaurant, and I obviously was trying to call people or dial, and then I hit that. I wasn't doing any Google searches. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. There's an indication, Alec, that at 10-22-09, you opened a group text message from Michael Gunn stating, she brought the heat for Miami boys. Were you reading text messages from Michael Gunn right after you got off with the 911 operator?

I heard him ask that question. I can promise you I wasn't reading any text messages. At 1040 p.m., you did a Google search or a Safari browser search for Whaley's at Edisto while your wife and son are laying dead on the ground. Did you do that? No. Whaley's is a restaurant at Eddystoe that we ate at a lot of times. We got takeout from a lot of times.

So I'm assuming it was in my search history, pulling up the restaurant. And I obviously was trying to call people or dial, and then I hit that. I wasn't doing any Google searches. Is that the way a phone works? When you're trying to make a phone call, you hit the phone icon and you start dialing. That was an actual Google search. It wasn't dialing Whaley's Restaurant. It was an actual Google search. Does that make sense to you, Sydney? Because it doesn't make sense. Okay, it makes sense to you sydney because it doesn't make sense okay it makes sense to you that he did a google search but he was really using the phone

no okay no it does not make sense okay there's more to it but first i'm hearing in my ear dr michelle dupree jump in doctor it does not make sense nancy there's no way i mean how can you be you know within 20 minutes or whatever and standing beside your wife and your son's dead bodies and doing a google search for anything much less your favorite restaurant in edisto you know we also hear go ahead i i'm not sure who that is but i think it's dr angie go Go ahead, doctor. You know, Nancy, another thing that we have to think about too, if he was under the influence of drugs that night, Nancy, he's not going to remember, okay, we had dinner, we sat down, we had dinner, then I laid down and watched TV. Nancy, those aren't things that someone under the influence of drugs does. And then all of a sudden,

the drugs are going to influence him and as we've said have him develop this paranoia about the police. So I don't believe that that's congruent either. Another thing that he said that was completely incongruent, if he was so concerned about the social media attacks that his son was apparently receiving and then he just said well we just didn't do anything about it we just we just let that go nancy that that is an incongruent statement to say that the threats were so heinous and then but we just let that go we call that an incongruent statement nancy and i certainly hope the jury picked up on that nancy eric bland do you want it in go ahead yes uh first of all he did send a text message to cb row before he called buster at like 10 38 saying can you address the sunflower trees tomorrow if somebody just killed your wife and your son and you only have one living child left that would be my first phone call to say, son, get to security, go to the nearest police department. I don't know what has happened, but your mother and your son were killed.

Why would he let Buster be 40 minutes from a phone call, then get the phone call and permit Buster to drive with his girlfriend back to Mizzell if killers are in the area. You would tell your child, your only living child, please go to the police department. Yeah, and right now. Now, I want you to hear more in our cut four. Take a listen to this. On June the 7th, I wasn't thinking clearly. I don't think I was capable of reason.

And I lied about being down there. And I'm so sorry that I did. I'm sorry to my son Buster. I'm sorry to Grandma and Papa T. I'm sorry to both of our families. Most of all, I'm sorry to Mags and Pawpaw.

I would never intentionally do anything to hurt either one of them. Ever. As he's shaking his head, yes. Intentionally. That's something Chris McDonough brought up earlier.

I would never intentionally do anything to hurt either of them ever. But if he's high out of his mind on opioids, his mind does that mean it wasn't intentional but what caught my attention there is he says on the night of the murders I wasn't thinking clearly I don't think I was capable of reason yet he could think clearly enough to lie to save his own skin to police and now he wants the jury to believe the story he's telling today. I mean can they ignore the hard facts, the concrete, the cement facts of GPS, of phone data. To you Dr. Angie he says I wasn't thinking clearly. Don't think I was capable of reason. Yet he was capable of lying about his own whereabouts. And this is within one hour of discovering the bodies. And Nancy, he was also capable about making some decisions.

He decided he was going to go visit his mother mother why would you go visit your mother if you were incapable of making decisions that night why would you get in a car and drive why wouldn't you just stay on the couch and watch TV and rest and let every and and let everything go the way it was going that night I think that's another one of his lies and you know what Nancy I believe that the reason this man turns to lies is because that's the first thing that his brain does he is a liar and we've got to remember if you're a liar you're a liar okay you have to sort of believe that everything that they say is a lie nancy they

don't come up with the truth that's why it is so easy for him to lie. To Eric Bland, high profile lawyer in the area, and to Chris McDonough of the interview room, I want you to take a listen to our cut 10. And this is very significant. Our cut 10. Listen. You're suburban and perhaps some of this OnStar GPS data that indicates that at some point in time in your mother's driveway, you stopped for about a minute. Do you recall seeing that data? I did. What were you doing when you stopped? I was getting my phone that I had my phone had gotten there's a console in the middle of my car and my phone had gotten down in the console between the console and the seat where you couldn't get to it. Okay.

Were you, during that minute or however long it was, were you disposing of murder weapons, Alec? No. Were you disposing of bloody clothes? No. So Eric Bland, if he says he's not the killer, that would make sense. He was not disposing of the weapons. He didn't have the murder weapons.

But what about the clothes? Whatever did happen to those clothes? Well, you know, you're getting a lot of different stories. Supposedly Buster helped him clean out the house. He never went back there. That's been very convenient, even though he told Buster while he was in jail hey go back there and hunt there's tons of corn here's the issue Nancy he is not telling the truth um I can't remember if I drop my phone in my car how's he going to remember it when he's high on opioids?

You can't have it both ways, as one of your guests said. And I did an experiment. The other day, I got one of those mini bottles of water, and I threw it out the window. It's the same weight as my phone, and I slowed to 40 miles an hour, and I threw it out my passenger window, and guess what?

It went almost 30 yards into the woods. Just thinking through everything that he's saying, let me go back to Dr. Angela Arnold, a renowned psychiatrist out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. The clothes, the clothing, that shirt. Why is it the housekeeper can never find the shirt, he can't tell us where the shirt is, and they carefully did not address that in his direct examination? You know, Nancy, maybe they don't want people to think about that, because why would you not address something? They want to gloss over it i certainly hope that it is going to be i hope it is going to be examined because that seems like a

very huge piece to this puzzle and again he can remember something so beautifully and there are other things that he just has no recollection of which it it nancy it just tends to help us believe that he is truly a liar well another thing that he addressed remember when we heard all of the evidence and this is for you dr dupree all of that technical evidence about when he gets to the scene there's opening and closing and opening and closing opening and closing his door remember all that evidence that came from his car we had no idea your car recorded when you open the door let the windows up and down or put it in park but it exists i want you to take a listen to our cut 11. what he says he did when he found the bodies what'd you see so much i've seeing pictures up so bad can I have some water

you see them on the ground when you're pulling up in your suburban I did I think I jumped out of my car I'm not exactly sure what I did but no I got out of my car I know I ran back to my car called 9-1-1 I was up I called that one more I was on the phone with 9- I was trying to attend to Paul. I was trying to attend to Maggie. Were you going to Paul and Maggie while you were on the phone with the 911 operators? Yes. Okay. Does that explain all the opening and the closing of the doors. You see, at some point, Chris McDonough, he finally says, well, I don't know what I was doing. Is that how they're going to explain that? You know, Nancy, I mean, if this could backfire, if the prosecution has their questions,

you know, dialed in here, we may be calling this gone with the wind win if it works correctly because everything that he says if we listen carefully is i think and but however when it's convenient to him then he knows i.e he gives this idea of i felt that night i knew I was a suspect and that at that point he then figured he would start his own parallel investigation to help out you know by giving directions in relationship to the GPS and all the information that we're hearing about so when we see him in these types of moments in my opinion you know they're very carefully crafted in how he's delivering it, and they just seem disingenuous. You know, Eric Bland, I'm going to go to you on this.

You go first, Dr. Michelle. Okay, well, so, of course, he was not disposing of the clothes during that one minute. That was a carefully crafted question. He disposed of the clothes and the weapons when he drove around to Almeida and to the back of the house and was near that shed. So again, I think this is working two ways. Alex is very carefully crafting his answers, but the defense attorney then was also very carefully crafting the questions so that Alex

could answer them in the pre-planned way. Eric, I don't know how exactly to verbalize this, and I'm afraid I may be projecting about how I reacted when my fiance was murdered just before our wedding, but I can compare this to a colleague of mine. I think you all know Mark Klass. His daughter Polly was kidnapped from her own home, sex assaulted, and murdered. Cops came, of course, to him immediately. And he knows his daughter is gone. He says, here, take my fingerprints, search my place, search my office, search my car, do whatever you want. I'll give you my blood. I'll do anything you want so you can find who took my daughter. And I just find it very suspicious that at a time like this, and Eric, I have investigated, tried, covered, pled, literally thousands of cases.

And when parents act a certain way when they're protecting themselves, they are guilty of something. I don't know what, but something is wrong. Parents act a certain way when they're protecting themselves. They are guilty of something. I don't know what, but something is wrong. He should have been saying, listen, here, this is what happened. Maybe it looks bad. I don't care. But somebody killed my wife. Somebody killed my son.

My boy is dead. Suspect me if you want, but this is what happened. But that's not what he did. I thought he would be out howling in the backyard out of pain. But no, he's lying to save himself. Listen, he got lawyered up. Those five lawyers came from his law firm. Yes, they wanted to be there to provide emotional support, but he was lawyered up he told you from the start that he knew he was a suspect every father every husband knows they're a first suspect and you want to eliminate yourself so you say exactly what mr claus said here free reign search

do whatever i've been to mizelle nancy i've been down every road in the swamp area it's 1800 acres half of which are swamps he could have hid his stuff and then later gone back and got it you'll see in the netflix series that guns were removed by john marvin from the property. These are country people who know where to hide things. He was not open. He was not cooperative in my eyes that a father and a husband would be if their child and their wife were murdered. Nobody has more experience than Nancy Grace.

Your sixth sense tells you something's wrong here nancy you know another thing if my son was lying there dead and my other son was somewhere else the first thing i would say is you got to find my boy buster you got to get him somewhere safe that's the number one thing i got to do right now we never heard one word about protecting buster. And you've got to ask yourself why. Guys, they're going back in the courtroom. Guys, the jury is about to come back in. We're going straight back in. Thank you, everybody. We're going back in the courtroom. Stay with us. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.