Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ALL ALONE! Cult-Mom LORI VALLOW legal team and judge QUIT CASE! WHY??

Episode Date: March 19, 2020

The players in Lori Vallow's felony case surrounding her two missing Idaho children are changing. The judge presiding over the case has stepped down, and two of her attorneys withdraw from representing her. In the meantime, Vallow's continues to proclaim her innocence.Joining Nancy Grace today: Darryl Cohen - Former Assistant District Attorney, Fulton County, Georgia, Defense Attorney Joseph Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics Jacksonville State University & author of "Blood Beneath My Feet" Dr. Angela Arnold - Psychiatrist  Scott Hall - Bail Bondsman & former president of the National Association of Professional Bondsmen  Nate Eaton - Reporter for East Idaho News Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Nancy Grace is coming to Fox Nation. I want justice. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Available now only on Fox Nation. You'd have to be living in a cave or under a rock not to have heard of so-called cult mom Lori Vallow. Her husband, Charles Vallow, gets shot dead, and she marries Chad Daybell, and his wife just died two weeks before. That's quite the coincidence how it worked out so well for those two. They rush off to Hawaii, but nobody can find her children, Tylee and JJ. Okay, here's the update.

In the last hours, two defense lawyers and the judge walk off the cult mom Lori Vallow case, which leaves us wondering why. Is it because Lori Vallow refuses to say whether her children are dead or alive? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. typically stories with nancy grace when your children are missing you're not worried about your neon pink lipstick your mermaid curls and your blue toenail polish in the last hours we learned that cult mom laurie valo day bailed had a walk. Two of her lawyers quit and the judge recuses himself. What's going on? This is we managed to get our mitts on court documents. It's called discovery.

And it's what the state under the law must hand over to the defense in preparation for a trial. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111 Triumph. First of all, let's start it off with our friend at Fox 13 Utah, Adam Herberts. Within two weeks of Tammy's death, Chad married Lori Vallow, who, as you remember, has been a widow now for about three months. On November 26th, family members started to get concerned.

They hadn't heard from the kids, JJ or Tylee. They asked for a welfare check, and police said the newlyweds lied about the children's location. We've gotten pretty much the runaround. I don't know what happened to those kids. I know that there's people who do, and they're not talking. You've used the word cult. What do you mean by that? Their focus is just so much on the end of the world and, you know, this idea that it's coming. The next day, Rexburg police served a search warrant.

They found out Chad and Lori left their home abruptly, so they called in the FBI. If I could say anything to them, I would just say, tell the truth, you know? At this point, police determined the death of Chad's wife, Tammy Daybell, may be suspicious. So on December 11th, they went to her gravesite in Springville and exhumed her body for further testing. The day after that, Lori Vallow's brother, Alex Cox, died in Gilbert, Arizona. Mm, mm, mm, mm. As the bodies pile up, cult mom Lori Vallow insists on remaining silence as to the whereabout of her children now that's really odd i mean it seems to be that if you want to get out of jail and you

have nothing to hide you'd say my children are with all my friends at the cult they're preparing for the end of the world which i believe according to l Vallow, is going to happen on July 20, 2020, and only 140,000 people are going to make it to heaven. So I guess, Jackie, I mean, from what I know about you and me, we're both out. We're not going to make it. We're in trouble, as if we already didn't know that. With me, an all-star panel, joining me,

Daryl Cohen, former felony prosecutor in inner-city Atlanta, now defense attorney, Scott Hall. And apparently, nobody will help this woman get a bond. Gee, I wonder why. Scott Hall, bail bondsman, past president, National Association of Professional Bondsmen at scottghall.com. Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, touted as a death investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan joining us, and renowned psychiatrist joining me out of the Atlanta jurisdiction, Dr. Angela Arnold. And boy, do we need a shrink. And I say that in the most loving and caring way, Dr. Arnold. And right now to eastidahonews.com, Nate Eaton. Nate Eaton,

it's great to have you. For those of you that don't know, it was Nate Eaton running along beside Lori Vallow and her brand new groom just two weeks after his last wife's death in her sleep. What a coincidence. Running along beside asking them questions in Hawaii like where are your children? Nate Eaton, thank you for being with us. I just got my mitts on some court documents. It's the discovery, initial discovery, by far not the end of it. And it has a lot of information on here, including I'm really interested in this body cam video from cops. I can't wait to find out what's on that body cam video. But let's just start at the beginning.

Nate Eaton, Bob Shale, why are all of Cold Mom Lori Vallow's lawyers walking off the job? Yeah, this is kind of startling. You know, she hired three attorneys at the beginning, and just days ago, two of them said, we're done, resigned from the case. This was the same day that her legal defense team asked the judge to recuse himself and step down from the case. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Nate Eaton. That just puts off a stink bomb in the courtroom. Hold on, Nate Eaton, that just puts off a stink bomb in the courtroom.

Hold on, Nate Eaton. To Daryl Cohen, defense attorney, former prosecutor, Daryl, you and I prosecuted a lot of cases in inner city Atlanta. Never a lack of business. Daryl, when you ask a judge to recuse themselves, you're basically, you know, you're firing the first salvo. That's like setting off a bomb in the courtroom. When you ask a judge to recuse themselves off the case, that's essentially saying you're not fit for whatever reason to hear this case. And don't you know, all the other judges in the judge's lounge are talking about it? Oh, Nancy, let's start with, we asked the judge to recuse him.

Let's start with that. And the judge doesn't do it. Do you really think you're going to get a favorable ruling when it could go either way? Not happening. Now, and you're right. All of the judges, just like regular people, they talk. And you are going to find yourself in a big ball of trouble. Now, they're tied. I've never heard that. Is that a technical legal term, a big ball of trouble? Hmm.

I would say I was going to quote you on that, but I'm not going to steal that from you. I'm going to let you have that saying all to yourself. A big ball of trouble. But you're right, Daryl, because the judge, if there's a close call and he's ill with a lawyer, which way do you think the judge is going to go? I mean, I made so many judges mad. You do know, Daryl, that I had three felony Superior Court judges have a heart attack while I was trying cases in front of them. I'm not proud. Well, not really proud. Jackie quit laughing. It's true. Three judges had a heart attack when I was trying to case in front of them. So anyway,

it doesn't make, take much to get a judge mad. Daryl Cohen, what this means is unless they get a change in venue, they're going to be trying this case in front of one of the judge's friends. Explain. Well, Nancy, that's true. But I'm wondering, because I need to know more, and I always say that, of course, but I'm wondering if this judge just had it with her and her then three defense lawyers and was just delighted to get off of this case because I don't want to deal with it anymore because this woman wouldn't recognize the truth but hit her in the face.

So there's always a chance that when they said, we want you to be reaccused, the judge said, I'm out of here. You know, I'm taking the Pat and Turner, Pat the street and turn the corner. I'm telling you. Okay, Nate Eaton, we had a little aside there. Nate Eaton with me, EastIdahoNews.com, crack investigative reporter. Nate, you have been chasing this woman, trying to get to the truth of where her children are,

if they're dead or alive from the get-go. You've given me two bombshells. All of her lawyers so far, two of them, have walked off the case. They quit. And that's, I'm going to go back to you in a minute, Daryl. That's hard to do because I have seen judges force a lawyer to stay on the case. For instance, if they were already prepared for trial, they knew the case like the back of their hand,

and then suddenly the defendant wants a new lawyer? Uh-uh, no. The judge makes the person stay on the case. So, Nate, we've had two lawyers walk off, and the judge recuses himself. Tell me what you know, Nate Eaton. Well, we know that the one remaining attorney came out with a statement just days ago that said, my client is innocent. She should, you know, have the presumption of innocence until this goes to trial. The preliminary hearing that was supposed to happen this week, this is where the state goes in and presents all their evidence and tries to convince the judge that they have enough for these felony charges. That's been

pushed back until May. Okay, hold on. Let me take, let me take that in. She was supposed to have her preliminary hearing in a matter of days, and that has now been delayed. Is that correct? That's correct. It's been delayed two months. So the state's going to gather there. They're going to fly in witnesses from Hawaii, we know. Okay. And then they'll go before the judge, and basically it's a mini trial for two days. They're going to tell their case and try to

prove that laurie vallow did indeed desert her children the judge will then say all right we have enough here to advance this to the district court which is then when okay you know i never thought i'd accuse you of this nate eaton but now you're talking legal mumbo jumbo Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about cult mom Lori Vallow. In the last hours, two lawyers have walked off the case. I wonder why. Because just think about all the PR these lawyers are getting. This could pave the way for them to expand their practice. You know, like Mark Garagos,

we're all familiar with Mark. He's a longtime sparring partner of mine. But the more high profile cases he gets, the more clients he gets, the bigger his practice becomes. That's what a lot of lawyers want. I was very happy prosecuting murders. I wasn't trying to build a practice. But that's the dream of many lawyers. And why shouldn't it be? Two of them walk off, and the judge recuses himself.

He walks off, too. Take a listen now to our friends. This is Inside Info. Listen. January 30th or 31st of last year, Lori took off. That's when she and Charles separated. And that's when I started, got really involved, helping Charles with JJ in Phoenix. We live in Lake Charles, Louisiana.

Because Lori was gone 58 days, never a phone call, never a text, nothing. Back in February, Charles and I had a conversation. He had a million dollar life insurance policy at that point, and Lori was beneficiary. He said he wanted me to be the beneficiary, and he said, well, I figure that with what Lori's saying, she doesn't want JJ anymore. She doesn't want me. So, you know, I feel like you and Larry will end up back with JJ again to raise, to finish raising. And I don't know that he'll ever be able to live independently again as an adult. So I want you to have that money. And, and he told me how to split it and knowing I would follow through with what he wanted, with his wishes. Guys, you were just hearing the children's grandmother, Kay Woodcock, speaking to me here on Crime Stories.

And that's the first anyone learned that cult mom Lori Vallow's husband, Charles Vallow, now dead, had changed his will, had changed his life insurance policy. She, cult mom, was no longer the beneficiary. She left the children, didn't even call to inquire about them for 58 days. So the husband, Charles Vallow, changes the beneficiary to his sister, Kay Woodcock, also the children's grandmother. So here's the deal. When Charles Vallow was killed, Lori Vallow still believed she was the beneficiary to a million-dollar life insurance policy. Where does that leave us today in the last

hours bombshell documents that we have obtained from the courthouse from the state of idaho initial discovery disclosure joining me daryl cohen scott hall joe scott morgan dr angela arnold and nate eaton scott hall bill bondsman at scottghall.com. Scott, apparently none of the bonding companies, not only have her lawyers quit, the judge has left the case. Now no bail bondsman will grant her a bail. What will help her? Explain what a bondsman would be doing to help Vallow get out of jail. Well, it's important, Nancy, it's important to understand the purpose of bail is to guarantee her appearance. That's all it's about. It's to guarantee the appearance of the accused for all court dates. And a bondsman's being asked to basically co-sign a million dollar loan.

And, you know, the defense attorneys are running around saying, hey, this bond is excessive. Well, bail should be sufficient to guarantee. It shouldn't be excessive. However, no judge should ever be pressured to issue an insufficient bond. And that's what it appears to me. I mean, it's not meant to be affordable. It's meant to be sufficient to guarantee her appearance. And in this case, Scott Hall, bail bondsman, it was $5 million was set for her by the judge in Hawaii where she and her new husband, Chad Daybell, were, I guess you could say, honeymooning after she dumped her children God knows where.

She got extradited, brought back to Idaho. That judge reduced her bond in a shock move to $1 million. And Scott Hall, isn't it true that on a million dollar bond, all you really have to put up is $100,000? You put up 10%, correct? That is correct. In some cases, they put down far less than that. In some cases, the bonding company will actually finance the 10% fee. So theoretically, you could put down $10,000 if an idiot bondsman was willing to do that and expose himself because he's signing on the line for that potential million-dollar liability. And I mean, Scott Hall, when you don't know a horse, look at the track record. The cops came to her door going, hey hey the grandparents want to see the children where

are they and she goes oh they're so and so the cops come back the next day after they find out the children are not visiting relatives and she has cleared out the home she's gone nowhere to be found finally tracked down in hawai Hey, Nate Eaton, how did you find her in Hawaii anyway? Well, we got a pretty solid tip that she was hanging out there and we waited a little, a couple days to go down there and we just happened to get a tip from law enforcement and right then we happened to be at the right place at the right time. I wish there was more of a story. Now, aren't you with the East Idaho News? Yeah, we're timing.

How did you happen to be in Kauai, Hawaii? Because that doesn't make sense to me. You just happened to be there at her pool. 24 hours. We got a ticket 24 hours before this all went down. So we booked a ticket. We were on a plane. We didn't know what was going to happen.

We had no clue if we would even see her. We got there. And you're like running along beside them. And you actually said, hey, we're all praying for your children. What was her response? That was the only question she answered. I asked 29 questions in three minutes. The only thing she responded to is when I said, there's people around the country praying for you, praying for your children. She said, that's great.

So Scott Hall, bail bondsman, you've already had her flee the jurisdiction, flee the continental U.S. and head to Hawaii. So would you give her a bond? Would you help her out? Let's look at the facts. She left Arizona after the suspicious death of her husband. She left Idaho after police attempted to perform a wheelchair check. She misled law enforcement about the whereabouts of the children. She refused a court order to produce her children. Her fourth husband's dead, her brother's dead, and her current husband's wife is dead. No, I don't think I'd do that, Bon. Yeah, there are a lot of dead bodies piling up. To Joe Scott Morgan, another concern, well, the chief concern in my mind, is that her children are unaccounted for.

Could you tell me what you make of the photos that the FBI, you know it's a bad sign when the FBI is digging through your cell phone and they're releasing the last known photos of your children at Yellowstone. The children have never been seen since. I got to get my dates correct, but I don't believe they've been seen since that photo at Yellowstone. Joe Scott, tell me what you think about Cult Mom taking the children to Yellowstone. For those of us that have been to Yellowstone, Nancy, it is vast, vast, vast. And this area where they lived in Rexburg is not actually too far from like the southern,

the southern border of this. It's a vast place. if you wanted to lose someone it would be a prime location just let me give you an example uh nancy it's a very inhospitable place to be this time of two degrees up there right now nancy and you've got these kids that have been dumped there apparently or were last seen there uh months and months and months ago I have trouble keeping up with the dates as well because there's so many people actors involved in this thing including all of these dead people so my suspicion going back to what Scott had mentioned as a bail bondsman I have to look at the facts as well as a death investigator and think well if all of these other

people have met these very suspicious circumstances, I'm thinking this about the kids. We had mentioned just a moment ago, they're going to have this court hearing in May. That's going to be a very interesting time, Nancy, because Yellowstone is going to be in the middle of the spring thaw at that time. Now, I hate to be morbid about this, but they're going to be searching. And right now it's frozen solid. You got ice, you got snow. It's very inhospitable. We're going to pick up more at that point in time. So you're going to have this convergence of time at that moment down the road. I hope that we'll be able to find them. Hi guys, Nancy Grace here. We have all worked so hard to bring to you Don't Be a Victim,

Fighting Back Against America's Crime Wave, a brand new book. After interviewing literally hundreds of crime victims and police, we put our knowledge into Don't Be a a victim. You can pre-order now. Go to crimeonline.com, pre-order now, and know that portions of our proceeds goes to the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111 Triumph.

We are kicking around ideas about the lawyers walking off the case with cult mom Lori Vallow, the judge now off the case. What does it mean? We've gotten this initial discovery I have here on my desk in Idaho. A preliminary hearing has been reset where the state will put up the facts that it has so far, but it remains to be seen where Where are the children? And even now, behind bars, cult mom Lori Vallow refuses to say whether her children are dead or alive. Take a listen to our friends at Fox 13 News. This is Utah reporter Lauren Steinbrecher. When the nanny messaged Lori again the day after JJ was last

seen on September 24th, she responded to me that JJ was with his grandparents for a month and that she was in Hawaii. She said in about a month when they come back that I could work again. Well, once that month passed, I texted her again around Halloween time asking if I could work. There was no response. Rexburg police have said they confirmed Tylee never attended BYU-Idaho, which was what they say Lori was claiming to other people. A search warrant revealed that Lori left behind JJ's medication in that Rexburg townhome with pills still in

the bottle. They said that medication has not been filled in Idaho. The signs are very distressing as to whether the children are dead or alive. At this hour, her lawyers and the judge walk off the case. And it's got to take a lot for two lawyers to leave a case like this. To Dr. Angela Arnold, psychiatrist, joining us today. Dr. Angela, question to you. She would rather sit behind bars than say where her children are. That indicates there is a nefarious reason for her, a bad reason for her not telling us where the children are. If she wants them to live with a cult, the law under the Constitution, we can't say, well, we disagree with that, so we're taking the children away from the cult.

You can't do that. Parents, unless they're harming the children, can send them to live with relatives or friends. That's their prerogative. So that begs the question, Dr. Angela, why, even now behind bars, would she refuse to say where the children are? Well, it sounds to me like she is delusional, and she's living under a delusion that the world is coming to an end. Well, we know that's true, Dr. Angela. But when people are stuck in a delusion, you can't talk them out of their delusion, okay?

This is what she firmly believes is the truth. Okay, I'm trying to understand something. Dr. Angela Arnold, you're the psychiatrist, okay? You're the MD. I'm just a JD. But if she is convinced that the world is about to come to an end, wouldn't she want to spend every last minute with her children? And why would she be paddling around at a pool in Hawaii

while her children are bunked up with a cult? Well, she may think that she has saved them. She may think in her mind that she has her own way of saving herself. And she may think that this was an act of her own way of saving herself and she may think that this was an act of saving them i don't know what her delusion is i don't like what you're saying dr angela just know that typically i agree with you but i don't like what i'm hearing right now but i can't argue that it's not true so you think she may be functioning under a delusion that the world really is going to end July 20-ish. It sounds that way to me.

That is the only thing that could explain to me, other than just outright evil. But this is also calculated, everything that she's done. She is able to sit with a straight face and not answer any of these questions, and she doesn't break down. That is why I believe that she has concocted a belief in her head that is unshakable. Okay, let's talk about her belief, what we know about it. Nate Eaton with me, eastidahonews.com. Nate Eaton, it's my understanding that she believes she is a god with a little g,

that she has been sent here to lead the followers of preparing away people to the New Jerusalem after the Great War. And let me think, what else does she believe? Oh, in the divorce papers with Chad Dapes, with, I'm sorry, getting her husband's confused, with Charles Vallow, sorry. He said that she told him she would kill him if he got in the way between her and her religion. That she would kill him and now he's dead.

She's been obsessed with the end of times for years. She has read multiple books about the end of times, about Christ's second coming, and as time moved closer and closer to July of 2020, which is just a few months away, she believed that she was called on to do this important work and help bring a path to the second coming of Jesus Christ. And as you mentioned, she told her husband, if you get in my way, you will die. And she believed that she's a translated being. And so as the doctor said, Will you please stop talking like you understand this translated being.

I think you may be a member of the, okay. I take all that back. You may actually know what is a translated being and why does Lori Vallow think she is a translated being? What is a translated being? Somebody who already believes that they have accomplished their mission, their purposes on the earth, and they have been transformed into a different individual. But now she is fulfilling a second mission. Okay. You know what? I take it all back.

You knew exactly what you were talking about. Somebody has been hanging around the cult a little too much, Nate Eaton. I'm calling your mother. Guys, we're talking about the fact that a fleet of lawyers and a judge have now left the case. I mean, Daryl Cohen, this is a dream case for a lot of lawyers. This is like being asked to do the Scott Peterson case or the Michael Jackson case or the O.J. Simpson case. Yes, I think they're all guilty, but it's a defense attorney's dream. Why would they walk off the case, Daryl? Well, Nancy, I think we're talking different types of jurisdiction. Los Angeles, Atlanta, New York, Boston, Chicago.

It would be the dream case of every lawyer who's a defense lawyer who's going to get his or her chance for a book, be on all social media, do all the TV shows, but in a small town, in a small jurisdiction, and I don't know that this is the case, then that could be the scarlet letter, the stigma. I will never go to that lawyer. He or she, in this case, the two he's, represented this horrible woman, and he's a bad guy. Oh, man, I couldn't disagree with you more, because say you get a DUI. Who do you want? Who are you going to call? You're going to call the lawyer whose name is stuck in your head,

the lawyer that you know about, the lawyer that took on this big case. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We are talking about the sudden disruption in cult mom Lori Vallow's felony trial. At this hour, no sight of her two children, Tylee, age 17, and JJ, age 7. The last known photo of them is when cult mom took them to Yellowstone. I was just arguing with Daryl Cohen about why a lawyer would get off a case like this. I disagree. For instance, look at the Tara Grinstead murder case.

Those lawyers couldn't wait to defend Tara Grinstead. I don't know the killers of Tara Grinstead, they certainly couldn't have thought they were innocent. But even in a small town of Osceola, Georgia, lawyers wanted to represent, be part of that case. Look at Michael Vick, the football player in the Atlanta jurisdiction who mistreated all of his dogs. Defense lawyers were clamoring over each other to get a crack at that case. So I think it takes a lot to get thrown off or quit, quit, that's what happened, quit the case and the judge as well. I mean, Darrell, why would the judge step down from the case? My only thought would be that I don't want to deal with this.

These people are crazy. It's not doing anything for my calendar. Leave me alone. Get out of here. I'm out. Let me handle some cases that really matter to other people. I don't see it. Some of my other judges have it.

I don't know, Nancy. It's the only thing that makes sense to me. No, it doesn't. I don't see a judge just leaving a case because they're fed up. Judges are fed up every day of the year, 24-7, 365. I mean, when you deal with murder, rape, child molestation, deadbeat dads, DUIs, of course you get tired of it and want to quit, but they don't. It's a calling.

That's what they do. They don't just walk off a case. You know, I want you to take a listen now to CBS This Morning News correspondent Jonathan Vigliotti. Listen. As many in the town of Rexburg demanded to know where are 7-year-old JJ and 17-year-old Tylee. Vallow, who's charged with felony child abandonment, has revealed nothing about the fate of her kids. Investigators confirmed Tylee was last seen in Yellowstone National Park. There is no evidence of Tylee Ryan leaving this park. The FBI is now calling on everyone that visited here September 8th to look through their photos for signs of the family.

As Vallow's husband Chad Daybell looked on, her defense attorney complained Vallow has been hounded by the masses. She cannot go anywhere without cameras and people scrutinizing her every single move. Also speaking out, JJ's grandparents, Kay and Larry Woodcock, whose demand for a welfare check launched the search. Right now, I only have one question. Where are the kids? Where are the kids? Where are the kids? Bring them home. And Bell was set at $1 million. If released, Vallow will have to wear an ankle bracelet. At no point during this hearing did Vallow or her attorney mention where the kids are. Guys, I can't believe that we're still using ankle bracelets.

What that is, is, you know what, Scott Hall, you're the Bill Bondsman, past president of the National Association of Professional Bondsmen at scottghall.com. You tell, you explain why an ankle monitor is so ineffective. Well, I mean, ankle monitors were never intended for people charged with violent crimes. They were intended for low-level, non-violent, if you will, deadbeat dads. I mean, that ankle monitor basically will only tell you where that ankle monitor is when you cut off the strap.

They don't allow you to put those on with titanium bracelets. They put them on with a piece of plastic that has a couple of fishing cords through it that basically sends a signal. You can cut them off with any kitchen knife. So they are extremely ineffective. They don't protect anybody, and they only keep honest people honest. But when you've got someone that's basically proven that

they're going to ignore court orders, they are in fact going to leave the jurisdiction as soon as they get the opportunity. And it's obviously, as a psychologist basically said, you know, delusional. This is not the person that any of the rest of us want on the streets. You're darn right. Not with all the dead bodies in her wake. I mean, Joe Scott Morgan, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. If that doesn't make you want to read the book, I just don't know what would. Blood Beneath My Feet. You know If that doesn't make you want to read the book, I just don't know what would. Blood Beneath My Feet. You know, you may want to rethink that title, Joe Scott, but that aside, Joe Scott, all the dead bodies we're talking about. I mean, I want to believe,

and there is a chance, that Lori Vallow took those children away with this crazy cult she's allegedly part of, this doomsday cult. And remember, she's now married to Chad Daybell, who has written, we know, of 25 books on the end of times. I mean, she's really sucked in. Maybe she's got the children tucked away, but if so, why not tell police? On the other hand, Joseph Scott Morgan, as I love to say, and you're going to roll your eyes, I'm sure you are, if you don't know a horse, look at his track record. Because you've got, let's see, you've got Joseph Ryan, who is Tylee's dad, bio dad. He died of a heart attack, a sudden heart attack, and he was cremated immediately. That's one husband.

You've got Charles Vallow, who was shot dead by Lori Vallow, cult mom's brother. Then the brother died. And then, amazingly, what a coinkydink, in perfect health, training for a marathon in her 40s, died in her sleep. It's funny how that happened. And two weeks later, he marries cult mom Lori Vallow. So Joseph Scott Morgan, if that's the track record, it would indicate the children have been killed. I don't want to believe that. But we were talking, Joseph Scott Morgan, let's get down to the brass tacks, about this photo that was taken in September, the end of September, of both children with cult mom at Yellowstone, with cult mom and her killer brother.

Okay. Yeah. That's who was together at Yellowstone. You were talking about a thaw. Right. That's who was together at Yellowstone. You were talking about a thaw. What you're talking about, euphemistically, is the children's bodies thawing out like ground beef in your fridge when you take it out of the freezer. That's what you're talking about. Now, let's talk about if that worst-case scenario is true, what do we have to do to find the children and what will we find? Well, I think that there are multiple scenarios here, Nancy. I think that

if those children are found, and I have to unfortunately say if their remains are found out there because this is such a vast area, the one upside for investigators that will be investigating this as a homicide is there might be some level of preservation to a certain degree. However, given the time stamp on that photograph... You mean the children's bodies would have been preserved by the freezing temperature? Yeah, they would have. But here's the problem, Nancy. Those kids, if we were to believe these times, which I do, that they were last seen, that would have been before first thaw. So it would make it difficult. The bodies would have been there for a while.

They were missing, and then they would have frozen, and then they're going to defrost, if you will, after a period of time. So evidence will be compromised and isn't it kind of interesting though that in the wake of all of this these dead bodies i think about uh you know with tammy daybell uh they're still scratching their heads over this they missed an opportunity with her i say the authorities up there the corner didn't even order anything as far as even toxicology drawn on her. That's because Chad Daybell, her husband, now Lori Vallow's husband, said no autopsy. He was close next to Ken and he didn't want an autopsy on his wife. Yeah. And you've got Joseph Ryan, who was quickly, quickly cremated. There's no way to go back and

retroactively do that. And so there is this kind of thread of deception that runs through this whole thing. We have these kids that are, unfortunately, I believe, deposited in this remote location, and any kind of evidentiary value that there might be is going to be greatly compromised. You know what, I'm just not ready to accept that they're dead yet. I think there is the possibility that they are, you know, have been sent away. But I know this, two lawyers have walked off the case. Is it because cult mom Lori Vallow refuses to say whether her children are dead or alive. And that leaves us wondering why.

Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. This is an iHeart Podcast.