Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - American Idol Caleb Flynn Recants: I Did Not Kill My Wife! Grounds for New Trial?

Episode Date: October 7, 2026

Caleb Flynn, an American Idol speaks in court, saying  he has lied about many this, but proclaims he did not kill his wife.  He was arrested, tried, and convicted for allegedly murdering his wife, Ashley Flynn. Prosecutors say he fatally shot her in their home, then staged the scene to look like a home invasion. His two children were home at the time.  Ashley Flynn, 37, was shot twice in the head.   Caleb called 911 claiming an intruder had broken in. He told police the console of his truck was open and the gun kept there was missing.  Prosecutors detailed an affair Caleb had be in for the last 18 months. He met Alleigha Botner when she was an intern at  Caleb's church. Prosecutors presented over 100,000 text messages between Caleb and his mistress, which included hatred toward Ashley and wishes for her death.      Joining Nancy Grace today:  Randy Kessler  - Trial Lawyer, Emory Law School Professor, Past Chair ABA Family Law Section, Author: "Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids and Your Future", www.KSFamilyLaw.com, Instagram: @rkessler23, Twitter: @GADivorce Dr. Bethany Marshall  - Psychoanalyst, featured on the hit show: "Paris in Love" on Peacock and "The Valley, Persian Style" on Bravo,  Host: "On The Couch with Dr. Bethany Marshall," Website: drbethanymarshall.com, Instagram FB & TikTok: drbethanymarshall, Twitter:@DrBethanyLive  Tom Green - Former Chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriff’s Office,  Homicide Detective & Cold Case Squad Burglary/Fraud Detective, high tech surveillance & covert surveillance,   Private Investigator, Owner Nevada Investigative Services LLC  Dr. Kendall Crowns -  Chief Medical Examiner Tarrant County (Ft Worth), Host of Podcast "Mayhem in the Morgue”, Lecturer: Burnett School of Medicine at TCU (Texas Christian University)  Shannon Hill  -  Host, Shannon Hill News on Instagram, Tiktok and YouTube  Dave Mack  - Investigative Reporter, 'Crime Stories' See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Tonight, the American Idol star Caleb Flynn, aka. inmate, recants. The jury has just found him guilty for plugging his wife with two bullets to the back of the head in her sleep. We just endured his sniveling. and his lips trembling and his horrific singing odes to his sex monkey mistress. We had to go through all that in court.

Now he jumps up and says, I did not kill my wife. Translation, grounds for a new trial. Good evening. I'm Auntie Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to thank you for being with us. Is she gone? Is she gone? Is she gone? Is she gone?

Yes, because you killed her. You shot her twice in the back of the head as she was lying asleep. The jury saw right through it, Nancy. 107,000 text messages between Caleb Flynn and his mistress, Aaliyah Botner. What we're looking at is the ultimate performance. I have unfortunately lied about a lot of things

over the last couple of years. But as I stand here before. before God, who is my ultimate judge. I am not lying. When I say I did not kill my wife. I will continue to fight for my innocence as long as the Lord allows me to as I did not kill my wife.

Oh, I'm going to have to watch that again. Do you know that he actually turns around and looks at the lawyer because she's the only one in the courtroom that pretends she might believe him? I've got to see it again. The acting is amazing. At some point, he has to just close his eyes so he can spit the words out. One more time, please.

Roll it. I have unfortunately lied about a lot of things over the last couple of years. But as I stand here before God, who is my ultimate judge, I am not lying. When I say I did not show my wife, I will continue to fight. for my innocence as long as the Lord allows me to, as I did not kill my life. Oh, the drama. He's like, what, a fourth grade girl crying on the playground?

Stop it. That's from Nate Eaton, courtroom insider. Let's just look at it because I want our guests to watch this. Guys, this may be funny to some people. It's not funny to me. If there's insufficient evidence or if he's recanting anything he said in the past, We're looking at a new trial. I don't think I can endure it.

Okay, let me see it in full. Look at the guy on the right. He's thinking, two all beef, patty, spares, sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, undergone, sausage, eat bun. He's like, what can I have for lunch when this is over?

I've been listening to this for weeks. I'm dying here, people. Okay. Randy Kessler, veteran defense attorney. Why did his lawyer let him do that? I mean, please, can I, No offense, Kessler.

But can I see the footage while Kessler talks? I just, I can't look away from it. I've unfortunately lied about a lot of things. Yeah, everything. Wait till I play you the body cam. Wait, but, oh my goodness, he dragged God into it. How does God and his little daughters get dragged into everything this man's, oh, look, she's like, right, right, when is my nail appointment? Okay, Kessor, why? Why did he do this? The snotting, the crying. Help me.

You know, you can make light of it all you want. This is his entire world. He's been sitting there watching for the last six months, really, not just the trial. And you're only playing a small clip. If you watch the entire piece, you know, from his perspective, it's very heartfelt. He is, whether he's apologizing because he did it and he's not saying that or whether he's apologizing because of all the harm he's caused, he's absolutely. absolutely 100% responsible for a lot of bad feelings and a lot of people are. But he is maintaining his innocence. He has a right to maintain his innocence. And the truth of the matter is nobody knows 100% what happened there. The jury found beyond a reasonable doubt that they believe he did it based on text messages,

based on motive, which you know is not an element of the crime. And he's going to be convicted and he's going to go to jail the rest of his life. But in his mind, he thinks he's innocent. He has a right to say what he feels. And we have a, if you listen to the whole thing, it would be more in context. But, you know, who amongst us can make light of any part of this? It's a sad situation. I'm not making light of it because his wife was murdered in her sleep.

Come on, what? Why do I have to come on? His wife was murdered in her sleep and he did it with the children in the next room. That's making fun of it. What? What are thinking in his mind, the jingle from McDonald's. Come on. This is a serious moment. No, no, no. It was the guy standing next to him.

Right. The guy standing next to him who has heard his sniveling and his whining and his lies for months. For months. You know what? Hold on. Wait. Let's hear his songs and look at the well. In other words, everybody in the courtroom while his songs to his mistress are played in court. Brace yourself, everyone. Did you see them? Okay, let's watch them on mute. Kessler. Did you see that?

The painful lyrics, look, everybody's just like, please stop. please stop the torture and when you look at him he's actually keeping a straight face I'm sure at some point he burst out crying again these are the lyrics he wrote to his monkey sex mistress while he's married to his wife the mother of his two children

who works at the church where he is a pastor look at this that's exactly how I feel it's mirrored on every one of their faces. I mean, what are you saying that what he's saying now is his whole world? His whole world was Ashley and those two children, the three girls, they're gone. It's over. And top it all off, her parents were supporting them with tens of thousands of dollars.

I don't get it. Okay, what were you saying about this statement? These pack of lies are his whole world. He killed his whole world. He destroyed his whole world. And now he's saying he's innocent, which means he is going to pull an insufficient evidence claim. Could you explain that?

Yeah, I think it's a long shot, but he's got nothing else to lose, right? If he says I did it, then he's got nothing. grounds to appeal anything, right? If he says, I admit it, hoping for a lighter sentence. And people have admitted to doing things that he haven't done to get a lighter sentence. He is definitely definitive that he did not do this. He's maintaining that position. Maybe it's the way he lives with himself, or maybe it's the truth. And nobody knows 100%. The jury convicted based on motive, based on 100,000 text messages. I understand exactly why they convicted. But nobody saw him do it. There's no fingerprints on a murder weapon. There's no murder

weapon. There's no absolute proof that he did it. There's as close as you might get in a circumstantial case by deductive reasoning. Nobody else could have done it. But he's maintaining his innocence. And he's the only one that was there that night that knows 100%. He has a right to maintain his innocence. And that's what he's doing. Randy Kessler, by the way, you are seeing video from Inside the Courtman from our friend Nate Eaton at Courtroom Insider. Randy, let me correct a potential confusion that you have just created. You often refer to just a circumstantial case. Isn't it true under the law that circumstantial evidence is and can be as powerful and

probative as direct evidence such as a fingerprint or DNA? Isn't that true? Under the law? I think I already said this is. probably the most powerful circumstantial case you'll ever have. So yes, that is not what I asked you. I asked you under the black and white letter of the law. And I know somewhere in that big swanky office of yours up in the sky, you've got the OCGA, the official code of Georgia annotated. And in it, you will see the law, the judge reads to the jury

after closing arguments. And it includes a charge that circumstantial evidence is and can be as powerful and as probative as direct evidence. Isn't that true? Repeat. Under the law, I have a chance and opportunity to explain myself on cross-examination. So yes, the answer is yes, but he also, there is other kinds of evidence that is more powerful and more stronger, in my opinion. I think direct evidence, a photograph, an admission, fingerprints, DNA evidence, all that that wasn't there. This was a circumstantial case and it was powerful enough to convince.

Okay. So the answer is yes. That said, when you say things like just a circumstantial case, that means nothing to me because that's absolutely not the law. But I want to point out that him claiming he is innocent now bodes ill for an appeal, an immediate appeal, on insufficient evidence grounds. Translation, there's not enough evidence to prove me guilty. He did not take the stand in his own defense. interesting, but that appellate argument is governed by an old and venerable U.S. Supreme Court case, Jackson v. Virginia, which says that all the facts produced at trial will be viewed on appeal

in a light most favorable to the state. Isn't that true? Isn't that what Jackson v. Virginia says? Yes, and 100,000 text makes it hard. It's a lot. It's a lot. a hard appeal. Yes. Okay. Let's refresh Randy Kessler's recollection to Dave Mack, joining us, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, Dave Mack. There was a plethora, a mountain of evidence pointing to the defendant. Just rattle off a few, please. Well, Nancy, we had, starting with the 911 call, where he is stating that there's been a a break-in at his home, and there were two bullet wounds to the back of his wife's head.

He didn't say that on the 911 call, but he said that they'd had a break-in. When police started looking around, the house, they found in his garage, they found the pickup truck with the middle console pulled up and no gun, where he, Glenn told them there was a gun. We have the year and a half long affair where he told his girlfriend, his mistress, that he wanted to kill his wife. And he would do it if he could just figure out a way to do it without spending the rest of his life in jail. Those are just a couple of the things that popped up during the trial, Nancy, and everything points to nobody else being in the home the night his wife was murdered. Nobody else was hurt in the home either, as two children or himself. Oh, my God.

Are in the county, not long? Somebody broke into my home. Somebody broke in my home. Somebody broke in my home and saw my life. Are they still in there? I don't know. I don't know. Okay.

What's the address? Not 932. County here in court, Pittsburgh, Ohio. Please, please, please, please. What are you seeing? My wife is, she got two shots. Oh, my God.

Oh, my God. Okay. Okay. Okay. I need you to take a deep breath, okay. Okay, it's significant right there to Shannon Hill. She is the star of Shannon Hill News on Insta. Shannon, thank you for being with us tonight, that he automatically knew

and all of that matted, dark, once beautiful hair that she had been shot twice, which is a real giveaway, isn't it? It definitely is, Nancy. That is why the public is referring to Caleb Flynn as the towhead weasel because he has been lying through his teeth this entire time. And as much as we've been seeing him in court with that cry face, we're not seeing actual tears come out of those eyes. We're just seeing a lot of cry face acting.

But yeah, he called 911 and said, she's been shot twice. As you can see in those photos of Ashley Flynn, she had thick, beautiful hair. How did he make out that there were two shots to her head? And all we knew was that Caleb Flynn kind of rattled her toe a little bit to see if she was still awake. He didn't really look at her.

He knew because he shot her twice. An I-Heart Radio experience. Carly Pierce, live at the Opera House, October 16th. Win your way in to the exclusive I-Heart Radio sound check party, an intimate pre-show performance and Q&A. And then stay for the full show. Charlie Pierce, live in Toronto. Enter now for your chance to win at iHeartRadio.ca.

Stream Carly's new album, Honest Woman. Available now. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Dr. Kendall Crowns joining us. He is the chief medical examiner, Tarrant County. That's Fort Worth. He is a star of Mayhem and the Morg podcast online. He is an esteemed lecturer at the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU

and has performed well over 10,000. thousand autopsies. Dr. Kendall Crowns, thank you for being with us tonight. Isn't it true that as part of an autopsy, when there's a gunshot wound to the head, you have to shave the head. Why? You shave the head in autopsies when there's trauma to the head, be it blunt force, trauma, sharp force, or gunshot wounds to expose the area injury to take the hair off because the hair can actually cover the wound, the blood, the brain tissue can mat over it so you can't get a good look at it. So you shave the hair away to expose the wounds so you can properly assess it. Especially with gunshot wounds, you're going to want to look for range of fire,

muzzle imprints if it's a contact range wound or something of that nature. Are you hearing anything? No, I rubbed her leg and said her name. She's not answering you. Okay. Their daughter's not answering you? No, they're in the other room. Okay.

They're in their room. Okay. Are you hearing any kind of noise inside the house? No. What do I do? What do I do? Is she breathing at all? If you are comfortable, I want you to go and find a claw, then I want you to put a cloth on that gunshot wound, okay?

Like a towel? Yes, like it down. But do not apply direct pressure to it. Just put it on that blood wound, okay? Okay. He rubbed her left. leg. She shot twice in the head. He rubbed her leg. Then he goes, sure, I'll put a cloth on her head. I did it. To Dr. Bethany Marshall joining us, psychoanalyst out of L.A. You can see her on Hulu,

Bravo, Peacock. She is the star of a hit new podcast on the couch with Dr. Bethany. And you can find her at Dr. Bethany Marshall.com. Really? I put her back on her head. Rubbed her foot. Why? You know, I'm so struck by how thin his manipulative attempts are. I mean, the crying and the sobbing and the two gunshot wounds. And, you know, he sort of stammeres a cloth, you know, to a towel. You know, he acts so helpless. And we see this throughout the entire trial, how manipulative he is with the mistress, manipulating her through text after text, after text, the suggestive power of I want my wife gone. Now he thinks he can manipulate the 911 operator.

He thinks he can manipulate the jurors. He invokes God, Nancy, in a manipulative attempt to say, hey, we all answer to some higher power. I am of the same moral code as you. Do not sentence me harshly because I am a dad. I have kids. I have moral and financial obligations going forward. And if you sentenced me harshly, then my kids.

kids are going to miss out. There's going to be so much collateral damage. So listen to everything he's saying during the 911, during the court, the standing up and saying he's not guilty, the crying, oh, you know what, Nancy? The most manipulative thing he does, and I think this is so fascinating, is when he cries like a little girl, as you pointed out, he raises his voice as if to say, I'm not aggressive. I'm not an aggressive male. I'm just like an innocent little girl. Don't, don't, sentence me harshly. So it's you think about this running from beginning to sentencing and you can just just keep the word manipulation in your mind and it explains everything he doesn't says. Okay, I want you to see something that, oh good gravy. He needs support outside the house

after he murdered his wife. Oh my goodness, he's getting cold. Let's give him a bank key. It never ends with this guy. Oh, my. Oh, dear Lord, as Medea would say. Oh, dear Lord. Listen to this. I'm sits. Can you want to sit down?

No. Okay. Take a good. Is she gone? Look at me. Look at me. Take a breath. Okay.

Look at me. I need you to breathe, okay? Right now. Right now, I need you to breathe, okay? do you have any family that you can call? Okay, where's your phone at? Is she gone? Yeah, she's gone.

You killed her. You shot her twice in the head. Look at the action. Let's roll that on mute, please. What do I do with my daughters? You figure out a visitation schedule and just hope and pray to God that they want to see you.

You lie in sack of poop. Okay. You know what I noticed how clean and perfect this home is? This woman, devoted herself, Ashley, to her family, to her church, to her home. Look at this place. She did all that. They go, oh, do you need to sit down? No, I'm busy kneeling during my Oscar performance. To Tom Green joining us, former Chief Deputy, Washoe County Sheriff's, Homicide Detective, Colgate Squad, fraud, you name it.

He is now the owner of Nevada investigative services. I mean, this guy, reeked from the first moment. The only thing he could do now if he wants a lighter sentence is rat out the monkey sex mistress in the hopes that he'll get an order modification. Tom Green, what jumped out at you? Because you heard, Kessler, already tuning up for the appeal that is coming. He is declaring he's innocent. Notice he said that when he didn't have to be subjected to cross.

examination. Oh, H-E-W-L-N-O. He elicuted at sentencing, spoke. Mancy word for speak. He spoke at sentencing when nobody's going to cross-examine him. His lawyers looked like they were going to fall over. That said, Tom, could you please school Randy Kessler? Help him out. Now, I'm not saying Randy Kessler doesn't know because he's a great lawyer. He wins a lot of cases. But let's just jog his memory. about why we know the American Idol star killed his wife,

the star that is now saying, why? Well, look, Nancy, you got street cops that rarely respond to crimes like this in that town. We know it's a sleepy little community. Those initial responders knew something wasn't right. Do you see them running around, checking the perimeter, looking for this claimed intruder that fled on foot afterwards? No.

What kind of intruder? doesn't come with their own weapon. What kind of an intruder walks in and somehow silently kills just the wife while the husband and daughters are supposedly asleep? And yet what does his Apple Watch show? He's not sleeping. He's up wandering around the house. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up finding a gun eventually, Nancy, somewhere in the, in the vicinity of that home.

Guys, he's absolutely right. They did not cordon off the area. I guess they knew at the very get-go. Okay. Joining me now, very special guest. It is the lawyer for, as I have called her, the monkey sex mistress. This is a great lawyer.

And he has somehow pulled off the unimaginable because so far, Aaliyah Botner has not been charged. She was a witness, but she has not been charged. To Shannon Hill, who is Aaliyah? Bautner? Nancy, I know that you like to call her the monkey sex mistress. I like to call her the Chipotle mistress because that is where they were having their alleged

affair. Actually, it's not alleged anymore. Whoa, whoa, wait. Hold on, little girl. Wait a minute. Maybe they had a veggie burrito all organic at Chipotle. But that is not where they were doing the dirty. Okay.

Where did that go down? Every nook and cranny in town? Nancy, Aaliyah Botner took the stand as a witness and she said that sometimes they would have their intimate moments in the car of Caleb's car in the parking lot of Chipotle.

Please stop. Please stop. My ears are bleeding. Jackie, please give me gauze for my ears. Kessler, he's just class all the way, Aeney. In the parking lot at Chipotle. You want me to defend his class? That's not my job.

I'm not about to, you know, whether you have class or not. Hey, hey, look around, Fran. You're not in the courtroom. You're on crime stories. You're defending this guy. Did you just hear that? It was it, Joe. In the parking lot.

Yeah, but I'm going to maintain my class, too. And I'm not here to defend his class. I'm here to defend the facts and to argue the law. But whether someone's class or not, to me, that's not the issue. The issue is there evidence that can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he did it? That's the issue for the jury. Is he class? Okay.

That's awesome. Is he classless? Yes. Okay. Randy Kessler, please correct his bio. Gentleman lawyer. Gentleman lawyer that defends alleged murderers, rapist, child molesters, drug lords, arsonists, etc. Okay.

Gentleman lawyer will not discuss the monkey sex. Caleb Flan was having in the parking lot of Chipotle. But you know what? This is a yes-no, Kessler. I know that's never going to happen. But isn't it true? The jury is the sole judge. judge of credibility. Isn't that true? Sure. If that's a jury trial. Okay, I'm going to take

that as a yes. So I'm supposed to believe this guy, the one sniveling and snodding in the courtroom, that has sex with a much younger woman in the parking lot of Chipotle over the investigators. So, see, to me, every detail, whether it's the fact that she is shot two times in the back of the head or he lures a young church worker into his boudoir in his car at Chapo-Lay. It all comes together when I'm deciding credibility. And I'm telling you, if he could get it on in the parking lot of Chipotle and come home to his wife and children, you know what, Kester, here's another thing I admire about you. You do not only criminal defense work, but you do domestic relations.

As a matter of fact, you're a law school professor. at Emory, not Shabby, former ABA Family Law Section Chair, that's the American Bar Association, and author of Divorce, Protect Yourself, Your Kids, and Your Future. That's why I have you tonight, because this is how people get killed, and this is a perfect example. When you, a lawyer, get in the middle of a dogfight that is domestic relations, you'll get shot. It's, I think, safer to represent a doper, a drug lord, than it is to stick your hand in the middle of a custody fight or a domestic dispute. Because they will shoot you. They will drive right by your house and look in the picture window and, boom, you're dead.

You're just walking by on your way to the fridge. It's over. That's how heated these domestic, contentious domestic incidents become in court. And you want to tell me her parents aren't going out of their mind with him having sex at Chippo'lays parking lot with this girl? I agree 100%. That's why in family law, we have the ability to mediate and the ability to keep people out of court. And that is our goal, right? Court means everybody's lost. If you can't bring settlement, it means somebody is the problem.

It may be both sides, maybe both lawyers. But good lawyers will try. And you will see that probably 90% of our cases are resolved out of court. We're trial lawyers. We go to court. We like going to court. We're happy to go to court. but we know the best resolution is one resolved by the parties.

You don't have that luxury. You don't have that choice in a criminal case like this. It's exposed. Everything's coming out because for him to settle means he's acknowledging that he's going to go to jail the rest of his life. He didn't have a choice. He had to go to trial. Okay. What do you think about this, Kassler?

And I'd like you to put it in a nutshell because I want to get to our special guest, not that you're not very, very special. Nick Goneris is joining us. And he is representing Alia Botner, the quote, other woman. But I see his only real avenue of a new trial or a lighter sentence, not a new trial, is if he agrees to rat out the mistress, get her on the hook, she didn't get immunity, as my understanding. She did not get immunity, even though she testified. So if he can rat her out and make her part of the planning, he might get a sentence modification. That's the only thing I see

that's really practically viable for him. Well, certainly I want to hear from that lawyer, too, because there's nothing in it for this guy, for Caleb to now defend the honor of his mistress. He's totally got nothing left to lose. The honor, wait, what? Her maidenhood. That's long gone.

That cow's out of the barn. Right. He's now, he's got to do everything for himself, and at this point, he's got only one choice, and that is to say, you know, like you always say, some other dude, somebody else did. it and it was her. I don't see what other option he has to try to reduce the sound.

I see a whole new species emerging. It's a cross between a weasel, which he is now. You heard Shannon Hill, his new nickname is the towhead weasel because such a liar. Now a rat. You know in Harry Potter how the Gryffindor, I think it's part, what is it? It's part lion and it's part eagle. I guess we've got a reweasel. You got a rat weasel if he's going to rat out his mistress. Okay. I can come up with those names all. night long, but let me get to Nick. Joining us right now in addition to Randy Kessler, who's a veteran defense attorney, a very famed defense attorney throughout the southeast and beyond, Nick Gineris is with us,

and he has taken on the task of representing the, I'm not even going to say alleged mistress because she admitted to it. Nick, you've won a lot of cases. You have a great reputation. Let me ask you, how did Ms. Botner end up speaking to? law enforcement? Pretty soon afterwards. I don't know exactly

how many days, but after a little while they reached out to her. I think they had information that she might be involved with Caleb Flynn, and they called her in kind of on one of those, hey, we want to talk to you,

come on in. And that's what they did. And they spoke with her for some time, you know, and it came out at the trial. that her initial interview with them, she was not completely forthcoming. She minimized. And it took a little while during that first interview where she finally came around to opening up more and becoming a little clear. And I think the reason for that and what came out at the trial was, you know, she was having an affair with a married man for quite some time.

And in this community, in the church community that she's in, I mean, this is a major no-no. So her minimizing and her not being completely truthful at that time, I think, was based really on kind of protecting herself saying, wait a minute, if there's a way that I can help but not expose all of my secrets, I'm happy to do that. And they figured that out. They knew that going in. And so they pressed her on that turn. That first of them. An I Heart Radio experience. Carly Pierce, live at the Opera House, October 16th.

Win your way in to the exclusive IHeartRadio sound check party, an intimate pre-show performance and Q&A. And then stay for the full show. I don't leave I'm no scared. Charlie Pierce, live in Toronto. Enter now for your chance to win at IHeartRadio.com. Stream Carly's new album, Honest Woman. Available now.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Nick Gennar is with us tonight representing the so-called other woman. It's not really so-called because she admitted to her sex affair with the American Idol star. I understand that she, now, as she's dead, but yet your client says she was manipulated? You know, I would hate to say she felt like she was manipulated. manipulated. And the reason that I say that is one of the things that she's done consistently, and especially at the trial, is accept responsibility. So she's accepted responsibility for her actions. I think a better way to put that is, was she manipulated? Of course, as I look at it,

I see it. I don't think that she would be using that as an excuse for her behavior. She owns that. But I would agree that this is a guy who, to use this phrase, which is have your cake and eat it too, on one hand, he's got this young, attractive girlfriend. On the other hand, he's got this wonderful wife with kids. And don't forget, a great lifestyle. He's working for her family. So financially he said, this guy's got both things going. And so when you say manipulated, I think that he liked how it was, right?

And so when he had that ability, sure, he's keeping her on the line and saying certain things, which I don't believe were true about his wife, but he was saying them to her, and you're right, to work to manipulate her in this relationship. I can't really get past the text that your client wrote, wishing that she was dead and then poof she ends up dead and speaking of texts what do you kill her i hate her ever-living guts a hundred and seven thousand plus texts nick a hundred and seven plus thousand texts of that ilk yeah so i i would say there's two things that i'd like to to kind of talk about as that you know paul the prosecutor asked my client. He said, you know, there's 107,000 text messages. And remember,

that's just over the course of the year. And he brought out the statistic. That's 300 a day. And he asked my client, how do you get anything done? And she said, I don't know. So when I think about that and when you bring up the word, you know, immaturity and the like, here are these two folks. again, this young lady and this grown man with a family, and they're engaged all day long in this communication. No relationship is like that. Okay. I understand, Nick. I understand, but have you considered the possibility that Ms. Botner could face criminal charges? Yeah, so that's a question that I think a lot of people have asked. And here's what I would say. I'm a defense attorney. We met with investigators.

We reviewed the evidence. We being the defense. The state viewed the evidence. They did not believe that she, that there was criminal culpability on her part. That's why she was not indicted. You mentioned that this was a case that was super fast. But guess what?

The jury came back. They convicted him. We know who killed her. The case is over. They've got the guilty person. So if they were going to charge her, she would not have been in there testifying. She would have been a co-defendant in the case. So what that means is there's no immunity deal in place for Alea Botner, the mistress.

So Randy Kessler, you've seen a few of the texts, but there are many, many more where Botner refers to Ashley as the d-a-we-we have to kill her. I want her dead. I want you to myself. Why in the world she wants Caleb Flynn to herself? I do not know. But that said, we have to get rid of D.I need you. You're my everything. Oh, dear gravy.

Do you see a potential sentence modification in exchange for Caleb Flynn's testimony against the mistress? I think it's possible. You know, you're going to talk to the family, see if they want to prosecute. I think there's a simple case for sure. We see all these cases with. AI encouraging suicide where the burden's much lower in a civil case. I think there's a civil case coming against her. But a criminal case, I think Caleb is going to certainly explore it and

say, hey, you know, what do you need me to say? I mean, I certainly see the possibility of that, and I think you're right on target, Nancy. You know, Dr. I hate to give them any ideas, but he is the one recanting, stating he didn't do it. That's going to be the baseline for a motion for new trial on insufficient evidence. To Dr. Bethany Marshall, two questions. Why did defendants have to drag God and their children? I mean, they're just using them, and I resent that, using our Lord and children as pawns to be manipulated as an excuse for a light sentence. And how do they cry on demand?

I mean, now, wait a minute. Shannon Hill, didn't you say he never actually cried? I saw a lot of snot, I thought. I definitely see some snot as well, Nancy, but I did not see any tears come from that man's eyes. He reminds me of the emoji that it's like the sad scrunching face, but there's just zero tears coming from those fake cries. So those are the two questions, Dr. Bethany. Why drag God into it and your children as an excuse? Oh, good gravy.

You're just going to keep showing me him, aren't you? Okay, you know what? Go ahead. why are they dragged in and how do you learn to cry on demand you know nancy god is about redemption that we sinners are granted forgiveness and we go to be with the lord at some point so in invoking god the lord he's saying to the judge if god can forgive why can't you it's again is another manipulative attempt he's also saying we all i i i i I abide by the same moral code as everybody else in this courtroom.

We're all God-fearing. So he wants them to suspend disbelief. In invoking his children, he's also talking about the negative impact that his absence will have on his daughters. So he's saying there will be a ripple effect if you sentenced me harshly. So again, this is one more manipulation. In terms of crying on cue, Nancy, he cries as he's about to face sentencing. So, you know, I think defendants do cry when something bad happens to them, not when something bad happens to other people.

And we can see it. Let's talk about the car sex. He wasn't crying then. In fact, I believe he had sex in a car to try to recreate youth, romanticism, adventure. I'm just a reckless 18-year-old. Right. Who said that was romantic? Who was to sit on a stick shift?

Well, Nancy, in his own mind, but to be honest with you, I'm not sure that I really want to know what's going on in that scrambled brain of his, but I believe he thought it was romantic. And correct me if I'm wrong, Shannon and Dave. He takes his wife on a 15th anniversary cruise. I'm sure that her parents paid for it. You know what? I'd rather go to Dairy Queen and have a, what are they called, a flurry? No. A blizzard. I'd rather go to DQ and have a blizzard and have my husband pay for it, then go on a European cruise and have my parents pay for it. But anyway, 15th anniversary. Why am I not seeing either Bethany or Kessler?

You know what? Let's look at Kessler. 15th anniversary cruise, Kessler, a romantic cruise, I'm sure, paid for by her parents. and that's when Ashley, the victim, finds all of the monkey sex texts where she's called a douche, where they talk about how much they hate her, where they talk about him leaving her

on her 15th anniversary celebration. And you say, that doesn't matter, it does matter. It's all about credibility. I wouldn't believe one thing this guy says. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what you want me to say to that. It's a perfect time to find out. It's when the relationship should have ended. There should have been a divorce. Did you actually just say poetic symmetry?

Yeah, that she found out on the 15th anniversary. Yeah, I mean, she finds that out. How is that poetic symmetry? People file for divorce on anniversaries. We see things like that. You can call it God sent. You can call it just meant to be. But yeah, maybe this was destiny that she was supposed to find out. And unfortunately, nobody acted on it. They didn't get divorced. They didn't get separated. wish they had. I wish they had. Oh, okay. So it's her fault for not seeking divorce. I was waiting for you to get to the point where you find a way to blame her. No, I did not say it's her fault. I wish they'd gotten divorced. So if only they had gotten divorced then, this would never have happened. And you can just spin that out. I see it coming. You know what, Kessar, I know why you win so many

cases. Just like Nick Goneris. Nick Gennaris, be ready for what may come down the pike. In other words, Caleb Flynn's going to spend about a week in the pen, and he's going to start singing on your client. Will it work? Don't know, but that may be his only avenue now for an order, sentence modification. It's already started. So brace yourself. We're going to have to listen to those songs all over again. Tonight, we ask for your prayers for Ashley's family, not just her parents, who you saw in the

courtroom enduring all of this. But for the little girls left behind with just memories of their mother, we remember an American hero police officer Brian Pierce, Brooklyn, PD, Illinois, just 24 years old, killed in the line of duty, leaving behind brokenhearted parents, Brian and Tammy, American hero police officer Brian Pierce. Thank you to our guest, but especially to you for being with us tonight. Nancy Gray signing off for tonight. I'll see you tomorrow tonight, God willing. And until then, good night, friend. This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed human.