Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - ANOTHER player in Natalee Holloway's disappearance DEAD

Episode Date: March 22, 2018

A man who claimed to have helped Natalee Holloway’s purported killer hide the missing Alabama woman's remains suffered his own violent death during a struggle with an ex-girlfriend. John Ludwick was a friend of Joran van der Sloot, the man believed to be the last person to see Holloway alive before she disappeared in Aruba in 2005. Nancy Graces looks at the bizarre end to Ludwick's life with Cold Case Research Institute director Sheryl McCollum, New York psychologist Caryn Stark, Juvenile Judge Ashley Willcott, and Investigative reporter Art Harris. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph, Channel 132. It just never ends. It's amazing how crimes, violent crimes, have ripple effects that go on and on and on for years. And this case is no different from the abduction and murder, still unresolved, of a beautiful American girl on spring break, Natalie Holloway, then comes Tassiana Flores, another murder, and now a third bloody death stemming out of the Natalie Holloway debacle. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us. It all starts right here. Listen. John Ludwig, friend of Jorn Vandersloot. John, thank you for being with us,

joining us tonight exclusively out of D.C. You're a friend of Jorn Vandersloot. Are you surprised that he's actually pled guilty to murder? Well, he really didn't have a choice in this situation, so I'm just hoping for the best. Well, what do you mean he didn't have a choice? I mean, even I can't dispute the evidence. He obviously murdered her. I'm not saying that it wasn't provoked. And I believe he did have post-traumatic stress syndrome. But what do you mean? You think Stephanie Tassiano provoked Jorn Vandersloot into murdering her? What do you mean by that? I do believe so. If she got the email and figured out he was involved in Natalie's stuff, she should have just immediately left the room and not confronted him.

How did that provoke him? That she said, whoa, are you the one that people believe killed Natalie? How did that provoke him into murder? It enraged him, obviously. So she shouldn't have done that. She shouldn't have done that. Okay, John Ludwig, no offense, but do you realize how crazy you sound right now that she basically deserved the murder because she said,

whoa, you're the guy they suspect that murdered Natalie Holloway, that she shouldn't have said anything, that it's her fault she didn't leave the hotel room? Do you realize how crazy you sound? I'm not saying she deserved it, but she definitely could have prevented it by just leaving immediately. And he was suffering from post-traumatic stress syndrome. Yeah, I didn't ask you about the post-traumatic stress syndrome. I'm asking you about Stephanie Flores. You just said she provoked him into murder.

Have you seen the crime scene? Her blood was smeared from the bottom of the of the the wall to the top of the ceiling she's covered in bruises half naked he stole thousands of dollars from her and said his only problem was the money was covered in blood and you're telling me that she provoked him? I believe so, Nancy. Why? Well, if you're in a room with someone... What? If you're in a room with someone you believe might have been involved in a murder, you don't stay there and talk to them about it.

You immediately leave the area well don't you think that it's more his fault since he beat her to smithereens strangled her and left her in a pool of her own blood yes he shouldn't have reacted that way but react you think a murder is a reaction yeah we're just hoping for the best hopefully gets out in 10 years or less why is that the best why shouldn't he get the death penalty oh absolutely not absolutely not these are two there's two dead bodies two women are dead because of him even if natalie is dead you can't prove that he killed her i didn't say whether it could be proved or not i said it's true there's no proof there's no way to say that it's true so here in the the face, have you seen the photos?

Show them the photos, Liz, of the crime scene drenched in blood. You're saying that you hope for the best, that he gets out, and a third of his sentence. Is that what you just said? Yeah, I believe he made the crime scene look worse than it initially was, like you said, to make it look like someone tried to rape her or something like that. So I believe afterwards the money was just an afterthought. Hey, honey, let me tell you something. Her having her pants pulled off is the least of Stephanie's problems.

I doubt that's what she would be worried about. She was brutally murdered. As a matter of fact, Dr. Bill Lloyd, board certified physician and pathologist, you have reviewed Stephanie Tassiano's medical examiner's report. The murder was heinous. Nancy, she was a victim of severe violent trauma. In addition to the bruises and the scratches and the cuts, she also sustained a fracture to one of her cervical vertebrae. In a young, healthy woman, it's one of the densest bones in the body. Simple strangulation won't break a cervical vertebrae. So to you, John Ludwig, friend of Jorn Vandersloot, he used powerful, almost superhuman force to murder a defenseless woman. And you're saying you hope for the best?

It was a crime of passion and heat of the moment type struggle. And stuff happens. What do you mean stuff happens? He robbed her and took her money and then killed her so she wouldn't be able to testify to it. That is what he told his lawyer. What's he at the moment? I believe it just all happened when she confronted him about being involved. It just spiraled out of control.

With me right now is a friend of Jorn Vandersloot. You keep saying over and over that Stephanie Tassiana, quote, created a killer. How can a woman, a defenseless woman, create a killer out of a hulking Dutchman like Jorn Vandersloot? Why does she create the killer? That's what I want to hear from you, Ludwig. Well, she put herself in this situation, Nancy. As soon as she found out who he was, she should have left. She shouldn't have started an argument and fighting with him and be in an isolated area where you don't know how you're going to act.

Why did she start an argument? All she did was say, even by his own words, hey, you're the guy suspected with Natalie Holloway. How's that starting a fight, Ludwig? If I was a woman and I was in her situation, I surely wouldn't have stood around to ask him that question. I would have got out of there. Okay, so John Ludwig, and I'm speaking now not as a lawyer, but as a victim of violent crime myself. You're saying that the murder victim who endured a brutal beating, a superhuman strangulation where her neck bone was actually crushed, the room covered in blood. Her clothes ripped off of her post-mortem and left that way to be found. It's her fault.

Sir, you know what? Cut his mic. John Ludwig, I reserve this for very, very few people, but you, sir, are a fool. And what you have said sets victims' rights back maybe a couple of hundred years. Take him off the screen. I don't want to look at him anymore. You were listening to me on CNN's HLN interviewing a young man, very close associate with Jorn Vandersloot, who is now dead.

But listen to the 911 call. What does it reveal? I thought I was going to die. Listen, he had a knife to my neck. He told me he was going to kill me if I didn't give him the key. I got the knife from him and I stabbed him. He's crazy. He's been stalking me for three months.

That was the 911 call on Ludwig. Jorn Vandersloot's good buddy with me, Cheryl McCollum, Karen Stark, Ashley Wilcott, John Limley, and Art Harris. Art Harris, what happened? Nancy, this was a shocking moment in this whole saga when the best friend, close friend of Jorn Vandersloot, who has been allegedly stalking his ex-girlfriend, confronts her in the driveway of her house, and they get into a struggle. He pulls out a knife trying to kidnap her, she later tells police, and she wrestles for her life, grabs the knife, and stabs him.

He is then later found bleeding to death, taken to a hospital, and dies. It's almost as if Natalie is coming back from the grave to send a message. This is Joran's best friend, and now he has tried to harm another woman, and he is dead. You know, Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Research Institute, you know what? I really didn't fully introduce all my guests. Art Harris is with us. I believe it's a five-time Emmy Award winning investigative journalist and reporter. Cheryl McCollum with us, director of the Cold Case Research Institute. Cheryl, you know, we've said it a million times.

Birds of a feather flock together, lay down with the dog, wake up with the flea. There you go. With Jorn Vandersloot and Ludwig, best buddies. I mean, are you surprised? Not at all. Not at all. You know, Nancy, early in my career, John Cross gave me some great advice. And he said, your victim today will be your suspect tomorrow.

Your suspect today will be your victim tomorrow. Here you go. You cannot run in that lifestyle without thinking it's going to come back to you. Listen. Tell me, how do you know Jorn Vandersloot? I met him in Aruba a few months back when he came back for his father's memorial towards the end of February. Yes. Yes.

How much time, did you spend a fair bit of time with him? Yeah, just about every day for about three and a half months I was with him. Did you know that he was the suspect in the death of American girl Natalie Holloway? Yes, that's how I recognized him when we first met and we started hanging out. May I ask what attracted you to a potential murderer? Well, he was never proven guilty, so I wouldn't call him that. Maybe a suspect, but, I mean, he seemed like a... Okay, I'll use your phrasing. May I ask you what attracted you to a murder suspect?

I mean, he seemed like he'd be a cool guy, and he ended up being what the media makes him out to be as far from the truth. He's a good friend. Elizabeth, please put Mr. Ludwig up. Okay, what were you saying, dear? I said what the media portrays him as as far from the truth. He's a good person and a good friend, and he's not the serial killer, sociopath, psychopath you guys, the media makes him out to be. Okay, but you know, psychopath, you guys, the media makes them out to be.

Okay. But you know, Karen Stark with me, a renowned New York psychologist joining us. Karen Stark, I've just got to say, when I worked the streets to, and I don't mean that in a hooker way, when I beat the street to find find yeah good good to know that yeah trying to find witnesses I mean I would be out and I still you've heard this story a million times out there I could not afford a winter coat I had the worst coat I don't know where that thing came from but I would be out there and uh trying to find, trying to deliver subpoenas, tromping around all through the worst areas of town. And I would meet people that would end up being witnesses. But you know what else, Karen?

I considered them friends. I remember that I drove around town, I don't know how long, for weeks and weeks and weeks with a convicted rapist in my car because he was a witness helping me find somebody. During that time, I found out more about his rape conviction that he got when he was 17 and his victim was his 14-year-old girlfriend. They were dating and he got charged and convicted of rape. Now he's like in his 30s and had never had another conviction or problem since then. And I looked it up and that is what happened, Karen. And you know, you just don't know when you, when Cheryl says you're suspect, you're victim, you don't know who these people

are. So I don't lump suspects in a big pot like everybody thinks I do, because people that had been convicted very often turned out to be some of the finest people I knew, the best witnesses I knew. That's the truth. But it also has a grain of truth in it, what Cheryl McCollum just said. We thought this guy was going to lead us to the truth about Natalie. You know, I fell for it. I thought it could be true. It was all lies. And now he tried to stab somebody, Karen. And if you take a look at what Charles said, where the people hang out together, this makes perfect sense. Sooner or later, something was going to happen they were he was best friends with your own he lied she didn't make a lot of sense the girlfriend was uh not mentally stable as far as

i could tell well i mean why would you date but wait a minute i want to follow up on what karen stark just said ashley wilcott with me juvenile judge and founder of a brand new website. Tell me about your website, Ashley. Sure. Childcrimewatch.com. Childcrimewatch.com. Ashley, Karen was just talking about hanging out with, and the girl must have had mental instability. A lot of women date guys or marry guys that are bad news, as my mom would say. And they're the only ones that can't see it. Yeah, absolutely. I got to say, often women make bad choices and dumb have found a very interesting interview of the victim in this case.

For those of you just joining us, this guy, John Christopher Ludwig, made headlines when he said he helped Jorn Vandersloot dispose of Natalie Holloway's body. This guy, 32 years old of Port Charlotte, Florida, was stabbed dead in the last days as he tried to kidnap a woman from her vehicle, say police. Now, he had been roommates with her at one point. They had a romantic relationship. She didn't want that anymore, but he would have nothing to do with it and basically ambushed her as she was getting out of her car, going into her home. And that's a nightmare. You know, I try to tell the children in parking garages and parking lots, be careful. So tell me about what she had to say, Alan Deak, when she was asked, why are you dating a guy that's tied up with Jorn Vandersloot? Basically, she said she just didn't have anybody else to hang out with and she was going to stay with him even though he is a dangerous man at Bazaar Exchange.

This video was made last May by Gabriel Madrigal, who we've had on this show a couple of times. He was the gentleman who... Oh, yeah. What a guy. He was the gentleman who helped T.J. Ward, the detective, and Dave Holloway go and work this source. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait, wait, wait. Hold on just a moment.

I had that response because I was thinking of another player in the Natalie Holloway scenario. Yes, I remember Gabriel. I remember him very well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Doesn't he have a daughter that was really ill at the time? Yes, yes. Yeah. God bless him and the daughter yes yes

i remember him okay alan take a listen to what alan deke's telling us about and buckle your seat belt people i'm here with emily hastine emily now why you are you around John? Because that's my n***a. Why is he your n***a? I don't know. Because we hang out and do n***a together. And I don't have any other friends. But do you know what he's been involved in? Kind of.

Do you know that he helped? Well, until he gets in trouble, it's not real. So you don't even believe it? Dude, he tells me a different story every time. I don't know what to believe. I feel like if it really happened, he'd be in trouble. But it did happen. But how do you know? Because I found the body. He took me right where it was.

Well, do you know for sure? Uh, duh. Well, when he gets charged and i'll be like my dog killed somebody my dad and you think it's funny well i don't think so what about if he kills you thank you jesus that's what i'm waiting for like you know how dumb you know how dumb you sound well i'm stressed out you know how really how dumb i mean i just i cannot comprehend a girl like you will even try to hang around with john why do you think i will because it's my job it's my job

i see but i warned you not to not to mess with john yeah you didn't tell me why though. I couldn't. It's really not. So it is, you could walk away. What about if he kills you? Good. Please. You know how stupid you sound? You know how-

Little old John. Little old John. You know how stupid you sound? I think John's a good person. He just did some stupid s***. You're shot. I am? What about if you die in two weeks?

I'm probably going to. I don't know. I won't. And if I die, it's not going to be because of John. I know that. He's going to make you kill someone. Well, he tried to hang himself. He's too f***ing stupid to hang himself. Exactly.

We don't got shit to worry about. So... We have nothing to worry about. So Lauren is out of the picture. Your boyfriend's out of the picture. So now you and John are... He's not out of the picture. He just went to jail for a minute.

Oh. So... I don't even... I don't even get it in with John. I just am almost ready. You know, you're a pathological liar. I'm a liar. I lie all the time. I know this, but I'm not lying. I'm not lying. I'm not lying. so i don't even i don't even get it in with john i just you know you're you're a pathopathic liar

i lie all the time i know this but i'm not lying right now you can ask him he's mad about it i don't want to get it in so here's my interview what would you like to tell the people that john what's john what's so special about john that's why he did what he did. He has no brain left. He shot out. Drugs f***ed up. My dog John just needed a little extra cash on the side. So he did some s***. So, why do you hang with him then? Yo, I don't know. I don't have anyone else to hang out with right now. You're so shy. I'm sorry.

Huh? I broke my finger. You can do a lot better than John. Come on give me a break i'm looking i'm let me look sugar daddies.com i need to put my name out there you're so shot anyways you cannot help you cannot help a person like this girl right here you just can't help. Okay, that is crazy. With me, John Limley, Crime Stories contributing reporter. So she knew full well who she was dating, right, John? Oh, full well, without a doubt. We've made mention of this documentary that John Ludwig was featured in,

The Disappearance of Natalie Holloway, a miniseries which followed Natalie's father, Dave Holloway, and his private investigator as they followed up new clues about what might have happened to the teenager. And in this series, Ludwig was shown explaining that he had crushed up Natalie's unearthed bones so that they weren't recognizable as human, burning the skull to get rid of hair fibers. He was also filmed saying that after dog remains were added to the mix, he went to the crematorium and claimed that his pet had died. Ludwig was shown on the documentary saying that he and Vandersloot had borrowed a fisherman's boat

and scattered the ashes at sea. You know, Art Harris, I know that the bone scenario turned out to be a big lie. But Art, and I'm going to go to Cheryl after this, in every lie I've been told, there is a grain, a tiny grain of truth. I still wonder if he did not have something to do with helping Norm Vandersloot get rid of Natalie's body, but lied about exactly how they did it. I mean, his details were so intricate.

I find it hard to believe he made the whole thing up. Well, Nancy, yeah. And he did not sound as if he were that creative. And yet he was talking about Yorin paying him $1,500 to find the remains and rebury them after crushing the skull and trying to make them unrecognizable. So like a lot of sociopaths, psychopaths, they do change the story, and they think they're smarter than everybody else by changing a few pieces. They don't realize what they said before or didn't say could come back to haunt them, and in this case, I think it did. And the guy wound up involved perpetrating violence against an ex-girlfriend, amazingly similar to a gene that maybe that your aunt has.

So he is seen also in your interview a few years ago defending your aunt and making excuses for Vander Sloot attacking the last woman he killed, saying that, well, she provoked him by even bringing up the fact that he had likely killed Natalie Holloway. So aren't you that guy? And that is what prompted him to kill her. And you interview this Ludwig guy who's defending your end as reacting to that and says, well, she shouldn't have brought it up. It was really her fault. You remember that? Oh, yeah. That was the clip we just played earlier. I remember it very well, Art Harris. Cheryl McCollum, I want to talk to you about, I'm not disagreeing with you about your suspect

will be your victim, your victim will be your suspect, that whole thing. Cheryl McCollum, I'm not discounting your theory at all. As a matter of fact, you know, I remember, and you remember this case too, the case of Julie Love, the kindergarten teacher that was out jogging. And Emmanuel Hammonds and his crew saw her and followed her. She tried, poor little thing, tried to pretend she was going into somebody else's house. It was in mid-morning. And they had the sense that wasn't really her house. And they waited for her to come back out.

Then they got her. They assaulted her horribly, beat her and killed her. And she had what you couldn't tell by looking at her but she had a glass eye and that glass eye was found a long time later and that's what led to the prosecution okay that's part of my story the rest of my story is I later prosecuted triple homicide turned out the gunman was that guy's first cousin. What I'm saying is you're right. Criminals often run in packs. And I don't understand that behavior, the wilding, the peer pressure.

But I'm just giving you one anecdote of many, many that I recall over the years of prosecuting where this one's, here's another one, Cheryl. Get this. I'll never forget it, Cheryl. Art Harris, you probably remember this, you Atlanta people. I prosecuted a guy for huge drug trafficking. He was rich, rich, rich, street named Charlie Tuna. Okay. And I was convinced that the judge was going to rule with the defense and my evidence would be thrown out. It was Judge Langham, who I loved. Well, as a matter of fact, he ruled with me and the evidence came in. The guy was convicted.

All right. My first big drug trafficking conviction. Fast forward about 10, 12, maybe longer. It was longer, many years later. O.J. Simpson beats the rap, then he gets busted in Vegas for armed robbery. And who was with him? Charles Ehrlich. E-H-R-L-I-C-H.

And it just hit me right then, that's Charlie Tuna. Who else would have that name? Sure enough, he does 10 on trafficking, gets out of jail, and hooks up somehow with Simpson and is part of that robbing crew. I mean, it's like they are drawn to each other, like the magnet at the North Pole. They can't stay away from evildoing, Cheryl. Well, here's the thing about John Loewitt. Let's just talk about how full of crap he is.

Nancy, you know as well as I do, men are A to B people. That's a technical legal term. Go ahead. It is. But men are A to B people. If you send them to the store for milk, they're coming home with milk. You ask a lady to stop to get milk at the store, she's going to say, well, while I'm here, I'm going to go ahead and get stuff for breakfast, and we need paper towels, and et cetera. Men, A to B.

So when you look at John, and he tells you, oh, yeah, I dug up the remains, and then I crushed the bones, and then I took her into a cave where I burned her with some gasoline, so I had to schlep her to the cave and then bring the gasoline with us. Oh, and then I took her to a crematorium. Oh, and then we went and scattered her in the ocean. You are such a freaking liar. It is not even funny. So now you want me to believe you did all those things and then you're such a criminal mastermind, you went and got some dog bones and put that where her remains were to throw

us off the track in case we find that, you know, clandestine grave. You're a jackass. None of that happened. It is fantasy. It is. Then why did he,

why did he do it? Ashley Wilcott? I mean, you're the juvenile judge. You've tried a ton of cases. You've been in the trenches just like the rest of us. Why would he deliver this fantastical tale and then meet his own bloody end? Ashley, I mean, do they never learn for Pete's sake?

Criminals aren't smart. So two things. Number one, I think he wanted to be famous or infamous, right? So he's going to come out and tell this elaborate story. Number two, it is his fantasy. So here's my thing. What if he had not been stabbed in self-defense, which she says it was? Would he have kidnapped her, killed her, and done all of these things he's come up with in his mind and crushed the bones and burned her skull? Maybe.

It's his fantasy. You know, what do you make of this, Ashley, our theory that criminals just are naturally, it's like inherent, they can't help it. They're genetically drawn to each other. Well, I think it's peer groups, right? Think about the people you hang out with. Guess what they're not? Criminals. Because you're drawn to people that are like you, that you have common interests.

So as deranged as it is, as stupid as it is, people who have criminal minds and want to do bad things to people, guess what? They're going to hang out with like-minded people who also want to do those things. I will never forget Art Harris. I want you to weigh in on this. I remember going to get together when I was a prosecutor and one of my very dear friends, female friends

was a dinner casual. I think they were making New Orleans food a Cajun food. Well I saw one person pull out a joint. Honey, I got myself together and I left. Can you even imagine?

So, of course, not that it would happen, but a bust. And there I'm sitting in there with a big pot of what? Let's see. A big pot of some little etouffee and little red beans and rice and a big joint right behind me. Oh, yeah. Uh-uh, uh-uh.

N-O. And you all may laugh about it, but that's the last thing my children are going to read about on the Internet as mommy's all been in trouble. I mean, when I get a ticket ticket i pay the darn thing i say thank you and drive off at 15 miles an hour bam uh-uh n-o and what she's saying is right you flock to what what you're comfortable with and that's why when people get out of jail they

run straight back to their old crew it It's just like you can predict it. There's a picture of this guy, Ludwig, and Joran Vandersloot, on his Facebook page, Nancy. This was his idol. He looked up to him. I mean, it's really sickening to think about these two birds of a feather, as you put it. And now one's in prison, the other is dead, ironically by, you know, provoking the woman he may have been acting out a Yoram fantasy on. I mean, this is, if he looks up to someone

who has killed two women and he has a girlfriend and has this opportunity, the judge is probably just right. This could have been her death and not his had the knife gone the other way. Guys, I want you to hear this other sound that Alan managed to get for us. It's me interviewing John Ludwig, the dead guy, defending Jorn Vandersloot, calling him a good guy. Listen to me on CNN's HLN. With us is a special guest, John Ludwig.

He is a friend of Jorn Vandersloot. He's joining us from Washington, D.C. tonight. Mr. Ludwig, are you from the States? Yes, I'm from Alexandria, Virginia. And do your parents know of your friendship with Jorn Vandersloot? Yes, they do. And what do they think of it? I mean, they have mixed opinions, but, I mean, he's my friend and it's my choice.

Right. When you say mixed opinions, what do you mean by that? Because of the past alleged incident, I mean. Please put Mr. Ludwig up. Mr. Ludwig, he's confessed to breaking somebody's neck, a girl's neck, and then taking her clothes off after she's dead. And then it says, I used the comforter and the sheets to clean up all the blood from the floor. I only cleaned the floor. He left the rest of the room just bloody.

You know, another can of worms. Here is an email exchange between you and Jorn Vandersloot where he says happy birthday i hope you had a good day this is may 29 and remember how important family and friends are by the way can you send me some money through western union tomorrow remember that yes i do did you send him money, I didn't. He had told me that was the evening of May 29th, and I guess the alleged event happened later, a few hours later into the 30th. But he told me he needed money to get back to Aruba. So, I mean, before I had a chance to help him out, I couldn't get a hold of him, and then the news said what it said.

Sir, it's not just the news said what it said sir it's not just the news said what it said the news is not like a being walking around this studio that just spouts things off the news is what he did and said okay it's just not didn't fall from the sky and hit you on the head this is what jorn vandersloot said but sir obviously you're going to choose to believe what you want to believe what if anything did he tell you about natalie holloway um we only had one main discussion on it and it was an evening that we watched the the the natalie holloway movie on tv and he just told me parts of the movie that were true and parts that weren't true and that's

About at length as I want to get into it Did you ask him more things? No, I didn't bring it up. He talked to me about it, but I'm not I don't want to get into any more of that You mean you don't want to tell me more about it right right? Or you didn't want to get into more of it with him? No, I don't want to bring that up at this time. Well, I would advise you to get ready for a subpoena to find out in a court of law what he had to say about Natalie Holloway's death. With me is John Ludwig, friend of Jorn Vandersloot.

Mr. Ludwig, what kind of things would you do together? Mainly, we went to the casino, and he liked to play poker. I just watch her play slots, but he really, I'd say he had a gambling addiction, but he'd play poker almost every night. Did he ever mention where he got the money? Did he ever mention he was in the middle of a shakedown on the dead girl's mother for a quarter million dollars to name where the dead girl's body is?

I know he had money, but he ran a coffee shop in Thailand, so he had some money saved for that. But after a while, his money started running low, and that's when i guess the contact happened with that what contact that's when i guess he tried to contact john kelly or beth halloway and that stuff happened when he ran out started running out of money mr loder why do you say he tried to contact them what he tried to do was extort a quarter million dollars in exchange for the

location of natalie's body and it would seem to me that you would be concerned that he knew where a dead body was i mean if you knew where a dead body was mr ludwig wouldn't you tell police um i mean not if it compromised me maybe not well okay, okay, obviously, you know, I learned, I think, in kindergarten, two plus two equals four, but if VanderSloot won't tell where the body is because it compromises him, that means he's involved in the murder. Did that not bother you during all the months you were out at casinos with him? I mean, I was never in fear for my safety. To John Limley, Crime Stories investigative reporter, I just want to touch on how this guy, Ludwig, died. He goes, what is this, his ex-girlfriend, and he wants to get back together. What do we know about how he actually died, the facts of this?

From what she told police, this woman was done with what relationship they had. She wanted out. John Ludwig showed up at her house, tried to get her car keys. And so he had a knife and somehow she was able to gain control of the knife before he could attack her. And she very quickly stabbed him and brought to a close this bizarre episode in the driveway of her house. Wow. You know what? I mean, when I think about it, Cheryl McCollum, could we not predict this would be his bitter end? Oh, like we had a crystal ball, honey. I mean, you cannot run with criminals, especially killers, and not think you're going to receive the same type of karma. So bottom line, was there just one stab, Art Harris, or did she let loose on him?

No, you're right. The police report talks about her stabbing him multiple times, quote, in the torso area. They find the sheath of the knife in his backpack that he ran away with. And police believe she she'd nicked an artery, a lucky, lucky stab for her. But amazing, this woman fighting for her life stabs this guy multiple times with his own knife. And police say it's self-defense, and they do not anticipate any charges being pressed against her. So in the end of this, Art Harris,

what has become of all the players in the Natalie Holloway scenario? Well, certainly you have the star evil Jean in prison in Peru, and last seen taking a candy bar from Beth Holloway, promising he'll write her and tell her possibly where Natalie's body is, never does. You have the mother and you have the father who has been on oxygen network trying to follow the trail of clues that this dead man claims that he had access to with all these bones. So, you know, it is a sad, a sad landscape of tragedy, Nancy, as crimes often are. But this one has gone on and on. And the ghost seems to be coming back in this case, certainly in this killing. You know, when I think about it, Cheryl McCollum, you've got the mom devastated. I'm talking about Beth Twitty.

Mm-hmm. Devastated because she lost her daughter. She got her hopes up when the Oxygen series started thinking maybe, you know, this might be Natalie's remains. And she was, you know, devastated again. You've got the dad who went through all this drama, has gone all over the world trying to find clues about Natalie. Could she still be alive? You've got Jorn Vandersloot, who, as I predicted, and I normally don't pat myself on the back for predicting another murder, did go on to kill again. He's in jail. He's managed to have a baby and get married and drink and do drugs and live the high

life behind bars. But yes, he's married with a baby behind bars in another country. This guy is dead. And I think that, Cheryl, as it all unfolds over the next years, we'll see more of the end of the story. Much like we did with the players in the O.J. Simpson case. You see how their lives unfold. I think Beth is probably the person that my heart breaks for often in this case because she's been lied to she's been boom swoggled she's been set up over and over again to basically have her heart ripped from her chest over and over and you know i mean i've've talked to Beth personally multiple times.

My original thought of what happened to Natalie has never changed, no matter who has come forward. Your hand Vander Sluis in Peru with Stephanie Flores panicked and ran. He didn't hide that body. He didn't take that body. He didn't dispose of that body. He panicked and ran. With Natalie, he did the same thing. He was feet from the Atlantic Ocean. That's where he put her.

Sad, pitiful, but true. I mean, Karen Stark, you know how I am with the twins. It hurts me to even let them out of my sight. I don't want to be some freaky mom. Ashley and I have joked about it. Ashley Wilcott, that there's a helicopter mom. I call myself a straitjacket mom. But I try not to let them know how freaked out I am. I try to watch and worry at a distance. But stories like this, I mean, I was just trying to explain to Lucy this past weekend why I was going back to college when she went to college, and that I would live very, very quietly and unobtrusively right across the street from campus with a pair of binoculars.

I mean, help me, Karen. Well, Nancy, we can't protect our children from harm, although that's every mother's wish. In this case, her daughter was on a vacation, and it was just supposed to be a fun trip with friends from school. And this tragedy happened. I think that the man who was just killed identified with his friend. I remember those interviews and when he kept defending him and saying, well, if that, you know, she never should have asked him about Natalie. Why would she bring that up? I could tell even then that he was talking about himself, that if somebody did that with him, he would think it would be fine to murder them. And so here we are, and he turns out to be a killer, and he gets killed himself.

So it's a tragic story, and it's not over yet. No, it's not. And this poor mother doesn't get resolution. She's right, Ashley Wilcott. It's not over yet. No, it's not. And this poor mother doesn't get resolution. She's right, Ashley Wilcott. It's not over yet. There's going to be more. And I swear I believe, and I know this sounds crazy, that one day we will know the truth about Natalie. But I do agree with Cheryl.

I've always thought that's what happened to Natalie. Yeah, I agree with you, Nancy. And I, too, I believe what goes around comes around and that someday in the future, we will know exactly what happened to her. It takes time, but often years and years later, like you said, glass eyeball, you find out what. Oh, and, you know, that's a good. Go ahead, John. Nancy, it's interesting to note we've talked about how we don't quite believe John Ludwig's story. Well, the credibility of what he progress of an investigation as it was happening, when in fact everything had been pre-scripted, making the series really a pre-planned farce, in their words, whose broadcast was outrageous. In her lawsuit, Beth claimed that

at a point when the series portrayed Ludwig as being covertly recorded, he had already signed a non-disclosure agreement and was a paid participant in the series and aware at all times that he was being taped for publication. Meanwhile, the claims of the lawsuit have been denied and Oxygen is standing behind that documentary. Bottom line to you, Art Harris, how's it all going to play out in the end? Do you think we'll ever get a resolution? And are you surprised about this guy's, his death? Not at all. This guy, like Yoram, kept changing his story about the evidence for money. And he would be paid, he would get, you know, something. And he told people what they wanted to hear, as Yoran has said on tape. That's what he did.

Now, how will it end? I just have to believe that at some point someone will either make Yoran offer he can't refuse, but the problem here is there are too many people, Nancy, in Aruba who don't want the truth to come out. And so this is something that U.N. probably fears. They fear. And, you know, the police don't seem that interested and have dismissed him as a liar. And that gives them an excuse not to pursue it because there's no credibility here to the information. So it is really sad, tragic, but at some point, if there's anything physical, maybe it can be proved. However, I believe like Cheryl does,

that the ashes were scattered. John Ludwig actually has said that he went out in a boat with Joran. Whether that's true or not, that's the same story Vander Sloot has told before. So maybe the two together are saying something that we should listen to, that the evidence is sleeping with fish, sadly. As it turns out, Ludwig, the guy involved in the Natalie Holloway disappearance and death, is now a footnote to the Natalie Holloway story. His life ends in a sticky, bloody death of his own when he tries to kidnap an ex-girlfriend that wants nothing else to do with him. Nancy Grace, Crime Stories, signing off.

Goodbye, friend.