Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Architect 'Long Island Serial Killer' Keeps LUX VEGAS CONDO 'for pleasure' & Remote SC Compound

Episode Date: July 18, 2023

As police search the basement of accused Long Island serial killed Rex Heuermann's home, more of the architect's real estate portfolio is revealed.  We now know that Heuermann has properties in South Caroline and Nevaded, Las Vegas to be precise. A search was also conducted at Heuermann's brother's Chester County home. Police were seen removing several boxes from  Heuermann’s Massapequa Park residence.   Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney says that Heuermann was on the LISK task force radar since last year. Investigators also say Heuermann "continued to patronize sex workers." Joining Nancy Grace Today:  Bernarda Villalona - NY Criminal Defense Attorney & Former Prosecutor, Villalona Law, PLLC.: @BernardaVillalona (FaceBook, Instagram, LinkdIn, TikTok, Threads); Twitter: @VillalonaLaw   Dr. Bethany Marshall - Psychoanalyst (Beverly Hills, CA); Twitter: @DrBethanyLive  Chris McDonough - Director At the Cold Case Foundation, Former Homicide Detective, & Host of YouTube channel, "The Interview Room" Toby Wolson - Forensic Consultant Specializing in DNA, Serology and Bloodstain Pattern Analysis Dr. Michelle DuPre - Forensic Pathologist, Medical Examiner and Detective: Lexington County Sheriff's Department; Author: "Homicide Investigation Field Guide" & "Investigating Child Abuse Field Guide;" Forensic Consultant Kristin Thorne - Investigative Reporter for WABC Channel 7 Eyewitness News in New York, & Host of Hulu’s true-crime show “Missing;" @KristinThorne - on Facebook, Twitter, Insta, Threads, LinkedIn  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The so-called Long Island serial killer. The headlines just keep pouring from leaks and various news outlets. We are learning that his very first question to jailhouse wardens is, quote, Is it in the news? That's what he's worried about? Apparently so. This as we also learn that two storage units, not one but two,

I wonder if his wife knew about those, being searched meticulously as it comes to light that a secret basement room was padlocked and heavily guarded by the so-called Long Island serial killer Rex Heuermann. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. First of all, take a listen to our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Interior designer Catherine Shepard worked with suspected serial killer Rex Heuermann over a period of five years. She had become friends with the

architect and he even took her to a firing range in Brooklyn and taught her how to fire a nine millimeter handgun in 2005 Shepherd was called to help Herman with renovation project at his home in Massapequa Park he was planning to renovate the kitchen but he wanted precise measurements of the entire home Harriman followed her from room to room as she measured and followed her downstairs. Shepard told the Daily Mail that, quote, in the basement there was this one room that was locked and he said, I couldn't go into that room. Couldn't go into that room. Why? You've asked people to come and redo your home, but you refuse adamantly not to allow them into one room just to get the specs. You know, how high the door is, how wide the room is, how long the room is.

Why? What did he keep in that room he wanted no one to ever see? Again, thanks for being with us here at Fox Nation Series XM 111 with me, an all-star panel to make sense of what we are learning literally by the minute. But first, straight out to Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter with WABC Channel 7 Eyewitness News. She's also star of Hulu's true crime show, Missing. Kristen, thank you for being with us. What's the latest? So you talked about the storage units. I'd say that's one of the biggest things that we saw yesterday. There was an additional unit that they responded to law enforcement.

These units are about two, maybe a seven minute drive from his house there in Massapequa Park. So we're seeing them pull a lot of things still out of the house. We saw them take out a childlike doll that was in this glass case. And a lot of people have been focusing in on that. We certainly want to know more about that. 200 guns. Hold on, Kristen. I want to follow up on something you just said.

Kristen Thorne is with me, investigative reporter. Very well respected, I might add, from WABC and Star of Missing on Hulu. Dr. Bethany Marshall, I can't believe you didn't just jump on Kristen's back and just ride her around the studio when you heard this about that life-size doll. Guys, Dr. Bethany Marshall is with me, psychoanalyst out of Beverly Hills at drbethanymarshall.com. Dr. Bethany, you heard what Kristen Thorne just said about that life-size doll and it was encased in glass in a wooden type frame. Who cares? I care and I'll tell you why. Because of all of his searches up to the time he was arrested for child porn.

And I don't mean just child porn. I mean child porn where the little girls have like black eyes and they're crying. It's awful. And then he has this life-size doll of a little girl, a replica doll. Nancy, this is so creepy. It reminds me of BTK Killer because remember he took so many pictures of himself dressed in latex with high heels, lipstick. I'm not judging Dr. Bethany, but I draw the line when he puts on the victim's clothes. Or what was the killer who actually put makeup on the victim? Ted Bundy.

He would bathe them, do their hair and put on their makeup after they're dead. That's right. But also the girl that worked at the coffee shop, remember? The coffee key. Oh, you're referring to Israel Keys and Samantha Koenig. Yeah, she had her eyes stitched open, makeup and hair done. That's right. So what I see in all these crimes, and I think what happened with Herman, is that sometimes the fetishized sexual interest in the victim persists long after the victim is dead. They continue to toy with the

victim, maybe masturbate on the victim, accost the victim sexually, put makeup on the victim. But what happens when they don't have a victim? Because you may not always have access to one. Maybe they're trying to find one or they want one to photograph, toy with, have sex with. The doll seems to be some kind of a substitute, I think, for this fetishized interest in children. And remember, we've been talking about the fact that his sexual proclivities seem to become more and more and more extreme. And if we think about all of this as a part of a masturbatory ritual. You know what, Dr. Bethany, you're concerned about him masturbating.

If that's my concern, I'd be worried about every man in the United States and worldwide. Forget the US. I'm more worried about his trail of dead bodies. And you know what else? Kristen Thorne with me from WABC. I didn't even let you, sorry, get through all the

news, but I certainly want to circle back, Kristen, whenever you're ready to talk about his very extensive property portfolio across several states that is bordering on a $1 million portfolio. And I know that they, he owns property in South Carolina and Vegas. In fact, Jackie and I were talking, I immediately said, oh, South Carolina, that is a place you could hide a dead body and nobody would ever find it. But then Jackie pointed out Vegas

because there's so many transients, there's tourists, there's hookers, there's models. People could go missing there and completely get lost in the sauce. And it's so close to the desert. Who's going to go look in the desert for a dead body? Nobody. So she's right. And Nancy, the aerial view of the South Carolina property is massive.

It's surrounded by wood. Las Vegas, I actually reached out to their police department yesterday on the phone and said, are you researching whether he may be involved with anything there? He has a property there. And Nancy, I have to tell you about this deposition that I found from him from 2017. Okay, wait a minute. Hold on. There's a 2017 deposition.

I'm so happy. Go ahead. I don't even know what it is yet. Go ahead. Two are involving people that he says hit him as he was walking, as he was a pedestrian. In one of those depositions, which is just great from 2017, he starts to detail a lot about his family, that he lives at that house and has lived there his whole life, that he lived there with his wife and his daughter and his stepson. But another thing that's very interesting, at the end of the deposition, the deposer asks him, when was the last time you traveled? And he talks about going to Las Vegas. And the deposer asks him, what were you doing there? Were you going to see friends, college friends? And he says, well, I just know some people out there.

And the deposer continues because they're trying to ask him about his injuries that he suffered from this accident from getting hit by a car. And he says, well, what exactly were you doing out there? And he says, the deposer says, was it a pleasure trip? And he said, you could put it that way. And when I read that, I almost immediately got off what I was reading, this document, and called the Las Vegas Police Department. Because we know what happens in Las Vegas. We know why many people enjoy going to Las Vegas. And I think that for someone like Rex Sherman, who we have now developed a sense of who he may be, it does raise questions about what may have happened in Las Vegas. He's had that property there since 2005. He bought it with his wife. But he also says in the deposition,

Nancy, that his wife did not come with him to Las Vegas. And the deposer asked him that specifically. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Everybody on the panel, let's brainstorm about this. First to Chris McDonough joining me. I found him on his YouTube channel, The Interview Room. But he's also the director of the Cold Case Foundation at coldcasefoundation.org. Former homicide detective, over 300 homicides under his belt Chris when she first said pleasure

trip to Vegas my fingertips actually now my now my legs are doing it got tingles and I'm telling you when I know dr. Bethany just dr. Bethany just hold on one minute when you are obsessed and fixated on something, that is what you take pleasure in. Bethany and I were talking yesterday. My thing is unsolved homicides, missing people, and first and foremost, my twins, John, Dave, and Lucy. That gives me so much pleasure. When I feel that I've advanced a case, that gives me pleasure. I'm happy that I could do that in any way help. People take pleasure in that with which they are obsessed. Chris, you've dealt with so many killers. Let's just compare it to Brian Koberger because that's

an easy example. He not only, we believe, committed murder, he obsessed on it. He emailed them, he stalked them, he spied on them. His whole life was centered around deriving pleasure from the stalking and then ultimately the murders of these four beautiful Idaho University students. It consumes your life. So when he says, let's just say it's pleasure, that can only mean one thing. You know, Nancy, in this situation with him, the guy from New York, he's obviously a sexual sadist and he's on the hunt. And with Koberger, he was in, you know, he was evolving. And so here and here has, you know, obviously evolved quite extensively and what's happening on an investigative

side here. Let's take Las Vegas in consideration. It's, we all know, you know, DNA is, is DNA is really an important piece of this puzzle here. So everybody's pushing into CODIS real quickly. There are rapid DNA machines around the country that they're rushing. I can guarantee you there are machines that you can get a DNA, at least a partial hit. Well, I certainly hope they're rushing to do it. Yeah. Because, you know, this investigation stalled for so many years for a number of reasons, which is a whole other can of worms.

But that said, I certainly hope you're right that they're rushing to make DNA comparisons. Yeah. And it just shows you the power of a new set of eyes, right? I mean, they take another look at this with a new team and lo and behold within a couple of weeks you know they're talking about this guy and so what's happening i think in the bigger picture here is this guy's living out his hunt fantasy in relationship to his next victimology and so he's traveling around the country and he literally is looking for that next victim.

And it's going to be interesting to learn about how he does it because he's a compartmentalized type of personality and the dog can talk about that all day. Evidence of the fact that that room underneath his house in the basement uh i i think it's going to end up being you know some significant torture uh arena of some sort and then you look at the fixation of his house the you know it's stuck in time uh and so there's going to be a lot of interesting psychological work in relationship to what were his triggers.

And then is there's time patterns that trigger him in relationship to those events, perhaps even when he lost his father at 12 years old. You know, what were those things that he was fixated on during his early adolescence? Joining me is Bernarda Villanova. She is a renowned New York criminal defense attorney. But what I like about her is she is a former prosecutor. And you can find her at Villanonallaw.com. Bernarda, you are hearing Chris McDonough, who really knows what he's talking about, describing what triggered Heerman. I don't care what triggered him. I don't care. All day long, I hear defendants talk about boo-hoo. This is why I did it. Don't care. The only remote interest I have and why he did it is it may help me find more crime victims. And I may be able to use that in front of a jury

so that the pieces fit together perfectly until they can see the full puzzle picture. That's the only reason I care because motive doesn't matter. I only care if it will show me some evidence. Exactly, Nancy. I'm 100% with you. Of course, you know, even at a trial, you don't have to prove motive. I don't care his reasons why he did it. All the prosecution has to show that he is the person that actually did it.

So in terms of his upbringing and what happened in the past, yes, cry me a river. They can probably use that at the time of sentencing for mitigation, but it doesn't matter when it comes to murder in the first degree, he is facing life without the possibility of parole. Here we're talking about three dead women, possibly another woman that he may be charged with. And who knows about the other people that were found dead in that same area yeah you know bernarda another thing that you just brought up i'm gonna jump in before i lose the thought there can he's charged with six counts which is three felony murder counts on three victims and three murder two counts on the same victims there are a lot more dead bodies one thing i find very intriguing is that in his many disgusting, I hate to even say them,

I had to wash my mouth out with Paroxal yesterday after I read his Google searches, all about beating women and beating little girls and raping them and sodomizing them. It's just like little girls with bruised up and crying anyway one of those searches was Jackie Sidney wasn't one of the searches Asian twink yes okay and one of the victims is a young male and hey Kristen Thorne jump in if you know more than we do. But I'm wondering if that search preceded the murder of the young male. See what I'm saying? Nancy, even more importantly, a transgender male, Asian male. Is this Bernarda or is this Kristen? That's Kristen. Okay. Did you say transgender Asian male? Yes. The victim was found in women's clothes. That's right. You're right. I recall that.

So, Bernarda, his search is so critical because what if that search was done, let's just say, 24 hours before this young Asian transgender male was found? Yes, Nancy. That's just not just a coincidence, Bernarda. Exactly. And Nancy, what I've been telling people is that just because there's an indictment having to deal with three of the women, that does not mean that there are not going to be future charges for the other people that were found along that beach. A lot of what we're finding out all gives us pieces of circumstantial evidence. Once the circumstantial evidence starts mounting and

mounting where you can't get over it, you'll probably see charges in those cases because that little piece right there of him searching about the Asian twinks and then all of a sudden you see from the discovery of the bodies that there is someone who is Asian huh just makes you think could this be related could it be tied could you be responsible could you have been involved were you there what contact did you have with this person those are all questions that will have to be answered beautifully put and so concise. Guys, I've somehow let us down a rabbit hole. Actually, a rabbit hole infers that it's not probative. That's not true. All of this is probative. And this is exactly what happens when you're preparing a case. You go down every avenue,

you think of every piece of evidence, any significance, what all you can prove from one piece of evidence like that Google search. Where was he when he searched it? Can I identify that? Did he immediately go on Craigslist after that? Did he start making calls from his burner phones trying to find a young Asian transgender male? There's just so many questions. When was the male, the young male's body found? Can I get a time of death? Hey, Dr. Michelle Dupree is joining us, renowned forensic pathologist, medical examiner, and former detective. She literally wrote the book, Homicide Investigation Field Guide. Dr. Dupree shot to the forefront of

the public consciousness during the Alex Murdoch trial. Dr. Dupree, what do you make of this young Asian male's body? And as far as all of the other bodies go, nearly a dozen, can we date the time of death? Well, Nancy, as you know, time of death is a range. It's an estimate. And so we can get fairly close. What I guess interests me about this case is that this killer, he isn't a very bright person. He is an organized killer. So he thinks about every move. And so finding additional evidence is wonderful, and I'm sure that we're going to. And hopefully we'll be able to tie that directly back to him, especially this Asian male and that computer search that we're talking about, there very well may be some information there that's going to lead us to him.

So you're referring to extrinsic evidence that medical examiners often use to determine, is this for the longest time before I actually started trying homicides, I thought that the medical examiner would base their findings strictly on what was derived from the body. But they also take into account extrinsic evidence such as the victim made a phone call at 10 p.m., her body is found at 1 a.m., so we know the time of death is between 10 and 1. You're exactly right. And, of course, we look at that totality of circumstances. We look at that crime scene.

We look for any scene markers that might be there, anything that might tie him to the victim or the victim to him. So all of that becomes important, not just what's on the body. Of course, you know, we like everything that's on the body because that's what we really deal in. But we deal with all the other extrinsic stuff as well. You really do. I can't wait to hear your thoughts after you examine very carefully what we learned from the autopsies of all of these nearly a dozen victims. Hey, Kristen Thorne, investigative reporter, WABC. Have you seen his Vegas hidey hole? Yeah. That's pretty luxe. I'm looking at a giant kidney shape. It's got to be an Olympic-sized pool. It's only three stories tall. It's kind of an intimate setting. There's a pool house. There's a huge hot tub.

And when he says he just went out for a pleasure trip, he knows, quote, some people. What people? Sex workers? Well, you know, that's where the question is. And Nancy, as I'm thinking about it, and I'm thinking about the picture of his luxury condo in Vegas in my head right now, and you contrast that to the home we see in Massapequa Park. I was there. So I've seen it with my own eyes.

The difference, right? So maybe when we talk about a double life, I mean, this really may have been one. The property in Massapequa Park, I'm sure people have seen pictures. It is dilapidated. It's the one house on that street, in that whole neighborhood, that if you walk down the street, you would say someone strange lives at that house. Do you know what I mean? Every other house is beautiful, meticulous landscaping. That house is falling apart. And then you look at this luxury Las Vegas

condo. And so you start to question or wonder, maybe this really was some sort of double life. What do you know about the South Carolina property, Kristen? So he bought the South Carolina property to be near his brother who lives down there. The aerial photos that I've seen, and that's all that I've seen so far, I think that's all that's out there actually, are aerial photos. It's a small house, but it's surrounded by woods. And he said he purchased that property to be near his brother. And we do know that his brother exists. In fact, I've reached out to the brother a number of times and tried to get him on the phone. And you can imagine he's not picking up his phone. But that's why he says he bought that property.

This place in Vegas is called Club de Soleil. And of course, they declined to comment when attempts were made to reach them. Back to that secret room. And again, I'm struck. I can't wait for Dr. Bethany to tear this apart. The first thing he says to the warden upon arrest is, hey, is it in the news? I want to circle back to this room, this room that he kept padlocked in his basement. Take a listen to Hourcut 71, our friends at CrimeOnline.com. Katherine Shepard told the Daily Mail that Rex Harriman started acting all weird when he told her she couldn't go into a locked room in the basement. Since he brought the interior designer to the home to make precise measurements,

it was more than just odd. But she tells the Daily Mail that Harriman acted like he was kind of joking, like, oh, you can't go in there because there's things in there. And then he said, I've got a bunch of guns. Shepard told the Daily Mail he was acting weird about it, and she finally just said she could measure around it. Eighteen years later, Rex Harriman is arrested and charged with murder, and his former friend and sometimes co-worker is left to wonder,

what was really behind the locked door in the basement. Joining me right now, Toby Wilson, forensic consultant specializing in DNA, serology, blood stain analysis at NoSlowForensic.com. Toby, what would you be doing right now in that secret padlocked room in Heuermann's basement if you had access to it? Well, you know, it's a room in the house. You're going to process it just like all the other rooms, but you're going to focus potentially more heavily on that one because it is locked. But you don't want to let it bias you that you don't properly handle the whole house. So you're going to be in there searching for the forensic evidence

that can potentially connect him with the victims because Locard's principle is based on the idea that anytime you enter an area, you take something with you when you leave, but you leave something behind. So they would be looking for anything that could be used to directly connect any of the victims to him or that house to any of the victims or just like when they look at the victims, something that would connect them to the killer.

So it's the same type of processing, but you may be inclined to, depending what's in there, be extra thorough on it. But you're still going to, depending what's in there, be extra thorough on it. But you're still going to be looking for all the same evidence, regardless of if it's locked or not. You want that direct contact. So, Chris McDonough, I think what I would be doing if I were the forensic tech is, first of all, not let anybody in there. You need to be in there with one other person as your witness. Just like you don't want to talk to a defendant by themselves because then later they'll claim, I didn't say that, or you tortured me, or you hit me, or whatever. You need somebody else in there with you or at the door watching you.

They don't have to come in. You need to fully suit up, including footies like surgeons wear. So you don't transfer anything from the outside in you would immediately i think the first thing i would do is look for fibers and hair because that's so easily disturbed the next thing i would do is of course look for prints fingerprints and you have to dust with dark powder but also i would go in there with luminol and try to find if there were any blood pattern, bloodstain patterns left, even a speck, because the naked eye can't see what's left behind. Yeah, exactly.

You know, it reminds me of something. I recently took the twins on a mission trip to Appalachia. And one of the things I was doing, we painted a bathroom and it was in a church. And then I was going over the floor to get off any little paint drops that we had dropped in there. And I did it. And then I went back and saw more. I finally did each block of tile individually because I kept seeing paint that I missed the first time. Can you imagine in a room down in a basement with those lighting conditions, how much evidence could still be in there? Yeah, Nancy. And so you're going to approach this very carefully in relationship to a couple of things. Number one, and depending on the type of room it is,

if it's a room set up to where he brings his victim and then he uses that room, you know, to as a torture chamber, hypothetically, or the second, is it a collector's room? Meaning, is this a place where he's keeping items from the particular crimes? And then, of course, the third, is this where he's keeping some of those guns that were utilized in those crimes? So there's three type of avenues that potentially could go on here, maybe even more. Trophies could be in there, too. Trophies? Yeah.

Somewhere where his wife wouldn't see, for instance, jewelry or driver's licenses. Absolutely. This is a room where he visits often, evident of the fact that he locks that door. So he is the controller

of that room, i.e. he's the controller of the victims and everything inside of that room. That's part of his secret life, that particular room. If in fact it's a place where they get in there, they can hit it with, like you said, luminol, blue star, alternate light sources that are going to bring all that, you know,

forensics evidence to the surface. And, but if it's a collector's room, that is going to be really fascinating because that's going to tell us about his trips because this is going to be like a museum to him for him to relive those potential fantasies. Let's say he's doing things in Vegas, South Carolina. If this guy is traveling and then committing these crimes, he's bringing those items back to potentially this room. Dr. Bethany Marshall, why souvenirs? Well, Nancy, if we think about this crime, these crimes, serial killing, as motivated by sex and power, right? or fused together in his mind. And he's going to have to take more and more extreme measures to achieve the sexual satisfaction. So what does that mean when you think about that? And what do

those extra properties mean? To me, it means that the souvenirs no longer hold the satisfaction that they used to. And he's going to have to graduate from souvenirs to a real person being the souvenir. See, remember, there was one victim that he called, I think, 16 times, right, on his phone. So he was getting some satisfaction by having contact with her, stalking her. So how does someone start when they graduate sexually? Maybe they're just looking at images online and then they're stalking a woman. Then they rape the woman.

Then they kill the woman. But the next step, I think, is holding someone captive for a period of time so you can do whatever you want with them. So I think of this room not so much as holding souvenirs, because I think that's a part of it, but I think of it as holding a live person so you can do whatever you want with them.

And these properties, where he's bought the properties is where he thinks there's sexual availability, right? Like sex workers, maybe going to strip clubs and things like that. But if you find someone who's transient, who's not really connected to their family, then there's the potential that he could hold that person for extended periods of time to do things to them. And that's not unreasonable, since many of these attacks occurred while his wife and children were out of state. Just as the way that Kristen Thorne from WABC Channel 7 has pointed out that he would go to Vegas without his wife and children,

which makes it like a perfect storm happening. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. You know, I'm looking at the South Carolina property, Kristen Thorne. It's like out of a Halloween movie. The sign is an old weather- um fence really weather beaten wooden fence and it's got all these signs don't come in keep out no trespassing there's litter some litter around it is that a skull a skull and bone yes there's a skull uh crossbones skull and bones? Yes. There's a skull, crossbones. Skull and crossbones. No warrant, no entry. No warrant, as in search warrant.

No entry. Keep out. No trespassing. That is on the front of his property. It's owned by Heurman and his brother in Chester. They're barely visible from an unpaved road surrounded by no trespassing signs. The locals state that the back of the lots meet onto a series of connecting ponds where some people keep boats. Now, he went to go cut the grass on one Sunday, and when a neighbor approached him,

apparently, they were met with a steel pole out of nowhere. I don't know if that was him or the brother, and the neighbor actually called police. So, they're serious about no trespassing. They don't want anybody on that property Kristen yeah I mean Nancy looking at these pictures I mean it's it's right out of a movie I mean it's almost like can this is this real it's exactly what you would think and again but I go back to how different this all is you know I wonder if the wife and the children went to the South Carolina property. I'm certainly curious about that.

I haven't read anywhere if they went to that property. You know, the property in South Carolina was searched. But I think they need a thorough search where they use cadaver dogs and ground penetrating radar as well. What do you think about that? Absolutely. I mean, you look at the scale of this property. I'm just looking at it now with the woods. I mean, absolutely, cadaver dogs would not be out of the question, and I don't think that that's unreasonable. Nancy, I think this could also be, you know, to dovetail into Dr. Bethany's thought earlier about, you know, this is maybe an

escalation in relationship to his control. I mean, he's trying to isolate himself on that piece of property, much different than obviously, the inner city, you know, place. But in here, in this piece of property, it could have been in play in terms of what's the next level that he was going to go to. You know, he's exhausted, you know, some of the problems up in New York. And now he's got this isolation down here in South Carolina. And so it's going to be really interesting how they're going to connect those two pieces in relationship to his progression. Isolation in South Carolina and virtual anonymity in Vegas.

Hey, another thing, Kristen, I'm just learning that apparently Heuermann planned to, quote, buy everybody out, according to one of the neighbors who spoke to Fox News, and basically make a big inaccessible compound. Wow. I wonder what he was going to do there. You know, Nancy, when these when these things come out and anytime we cover cases like this, you hindsight's always 20, 20. Right. But we hear these stories of these little these little nuggets and these little details that were being dropped along the way to

people. And I have to tell you, Nancy, even in reading that deposition I was talking to you about from 2017, Sherman says in it that he drives a Chevy Avalanche. And here it is in a public deposition from 2017, he was not hiding these facts that ended up leading to him being arrested. And so, again, I am not a forensic psychologist, not like your experts that are very, very professional and know what they're talking about here on this on this podcast. But, you know, it does make you think, was he so sure that he was not going to get caught, that he was he pursued this civil litigation and he he went to depositions and he was not going to get caught, that he pursued this civil litigation. And he went to depositions and he did not hide these facts about his life that ended up being

potentially connected to these crimes. I can't wait to read the depots you just told me about, Kristen. I really appreciate you telling me about that. Hey, Bernarda Villanona, high profile New York criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor at Villalona.law. What do you make of what you're hearing? Nancy, there's so much going on. I just want to like scream Jesus talking about the pieces on the board. Do you know? Did you actually just say that? Did she actually just say the Lord's name in vain? Did she actually say J-E-S-U-S? Please, please, please don't get him mad at me. That's what I don't need right now.

So what do you mean? I mean, when I'm starting to think about his so-called real estate portfolio and a secret chamber in his basement, This is straight out of a horror novel. Absolutely, Nancy. And this is why there's been so many shows and documentaries about this. And imagine how many more are going to come out now. But you got to think that this man, Heuermann, he was living in plain sight.

The thing is, is that he never thought he was going to be caught. Remember, he was vigilant. He was constantly searching on the internet, on Google, to see what is the status of this investigation? Has there been any suspects? What are these, who are these people? And he was basing that and he was doing that because he wanted to see if he can proceed, how he should proceed. Is anyone on his trail? Where can I go? What should I do? Where should I hide? What's my next step? He was always, he always thought that he was two steps ahead of everyone. And that's why the DA, Mr. Tierney,

he was very, very strategic in the sense that he put it in a grand jury. And he said he wanted to keep this investigation on the hush because he didn't want to tip anyone to this investigation because he thought that the person that was responsible, hence this man, could be listening and watching to see law enforcement's next move. Bernarda, you are so correct because I'm now learning that there is evidence that Heuermann was, in fact, monitoring and trying to find out all the moves, the inside moves of the investigators once they started this new task force to find the Long Island serial killer.

They were right. And you're right. Hey, Dr. Bethany Marshall. The other possibility is that life was organized around his perversion. And if his perversion was having power over people, that was sexually exciting. Dr. Bethany, as much as I want to talk about human sexual excitement, can I ask you a question? Sure. This first came to my mind when I was prosecuting a child molestation.

Two little sisters were both molested, full on rape. One was three, one was seven, by mommy's boyfriend who happened to be really wealthy. I started looking into him. He had a tax. I think he had 30 plus, in his words, natural children by many women. And he started raping and beating his own natural daughters, bio daughters, 25 years before I got a hold of him. I'm happy to report he got put away for life. But when I got him, he was near 70 and still at it. This guy's 59. He wants to retire to South Carolina. You don't think he's still at it. This guy's 59.

He wants to retire to South Carolina. You don't think he's still got it in him? You're wrong. You are wrong. Sex offenders continue offending until they're not breathing. That's right. They don't age out

because it's not really sex per se. It's about achieving that next sexual high by doing something more and more extreme. And so, you know, beating might be a part of it. Having more and more children so that you can have power over them, so you can corral them in some way. I was just thinking about the FLDS cult and the leader of that cult didn't just stop having sex with one child. He wanted more and more and more children. More and more and more children to molest. It was endless. Quickly, Dr. Dupree, where is Chester, South Carolina? Chester is actually a very, very rural town and county.

And it's up in the north, sort of east, near the Charlotte border. Gotcha. Because when I look at the aerial that Kristen Thorne was describing, it looks like where I grew up, out in the middle of nowhere. That's about right. Yeah. Toby Wilson, very quickly, what should authorities be doing in Vegas and Chester? They need to be looking for similar homicides and disappearances that match the New York ones because the M.O., you know, develops over time, but it stays essentially similar from beginning to end. And so they need to see if they have homicides or disappearances in those areas that match the mo of the new york

cases and then once they do that then they start need to start processing those those properties to see if they can find some connection between the missing or dead person man you're not kidding kristen thorn with us uh very quickly what comes next i think think today we're really and this week we're going to see I want to see what's coming out of his home out of these storage units. I have a lot of curiosity around these storage units right because the home we know that his wife and his children were living there and so it may not have the trophies that we would see in a storage unit. So to me, I'm very interested in seeing that. I'm also going to be following up with Las Vegas, absolutely. South Carolina, I think that there's a lot coming out of there. And I think we also should talk about, you know, police law enforcement

said yesterday that they talked to his family and that they were, quote, shocked, embarrassed, and disgusted that they had no idea, they say, that any of this was happening. But police are going to continue to look at them, and they will be looking at their phone records as well. Guys, if you know or think you know anything about this investigation, be it in Massapequa, South Carolina, Vegas, please call 1-800-220-TIPS. 1-800-220-TIPS. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.