Crime Stories with Nancy Grace - Arkansas serial killer eludes cops

Episode Date: June 1, 2021

Arkansas police are searching for a suspected serial killer thought to have carried out four stabbings. Three of the victims died. The attacks occurred between August 2020 and April of this year. In one of the recent attacks, 43-year-old Debra Walker was stabbed 15 times. Walker survived the attack. Police Chief Keith Humphrey said the four victims were chosen at random. All of the attacks reportedly occurred between 1 a.m. and 4 a.m.Joining Nancy Grace today: Brenda N. Stallings - Attorney, 6th Judicial District, Deputy Public Defender (Little Rock, AK), www.brendastallings.com, Instagram/Twitter: @attystallings, Dr. Shari Schwartz, Forensic Psychologist (specializing in Capital Mitigation and Victim Advocacy), www.panthermitigation.com, Twitter: https://twitter.com/TrialDoc, Author: "Criminal Behavior" and "Where Law and Psychology Intersect: Issues in Legal Psychology" Joe Scott Morgan - Professor of Forensics, Jacksonville State University, Author, "Blood Beneath My Feet" featured on "Poisonous Liaisons" on True Crime Network Levi Page - Crime Online Investigative Reporter, Host, "Crime and Scandal" True Crime Podcast, YouTube.com/LeviPageTV  Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.comSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

You're listening to an iHeart Podcast. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Is a serial killer walking the streets of Little Rock? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here at Fox Nation and Sirius XM 111. It's really hard to think of a modern day serial killer. We think of serial killers in the past, long ago, Jack the Ripper.

Not that distant past, such as BTK, Bind, Torture, Kill, Dennis Rader. It goes on and on, but to think a serial killer is walking amongst us right now in downtown Little Rock. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. We begin with developing news out of Little Rock, where police are investigating a suspicious death on West 12th Street. We reported it as a homicide investigation earlier this morning, but police have since reclassified the statement, saying it was not readily apparent to call it a homicide until after the autopsy report comes back.

And then very quickly, the news changed. You were listening to our friend Mallory Brooks at KARK4. Here are our friends Bob Clawson and Laura Monteverde at KARK4. There is an urgent safety alert tonight. Little Rock police say it's possible one man is responsible for multiple deadly knife attacks in the city. Authorities say the possible serial killer started his attacks last year. The latest two just this month. all-star panel to make sense of it all. Joining us, Brenda N. Stallings from Little Rock, trial lawyer, deputy public defender there. And you can find her at brendastallings.com. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, and boy, do we need a shrink, forensic psychologist specializing in cases just like this at panthermitigation.com. And she's the author of Criminal Behavior and Where Law and Psychology Intersect With Me.

Forensics expert, professor of forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon, and star of Poisonous Liaisons on the True Crime Network, Joseph Scott Morgan. But first, to Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. You can also find me at Crime and Scandal True Crime Podcast. Levi, what is happening in Arkansas? Well, Nancy, this is a very scary situation. In Little Rock, there have been four stabbings,

and there's this knife-roving man that is roaming the streets in the wee hours of the morning. We have four knife attacks that happened, started happening in August of 2020 and the latest in April of this year. Three of the victims died. They were murdered. And one of the victims, one victim in this case stabbed 15 times, survived. So this has been going on for a year, Nancy, and people in that area are really scared. Are you telling me I've got four dead bodies and one survivor or four victims in all? You have three people that have passed away that were murdered and one woman that survived. And I bet you anything, Joe Scott Morgan, there are other

victims that have not been attributed to this one person. But let me break down as best as I can. And everybody in the panel, jump in. This is no time for the faint at heart. Just jump in when you have a thought. This is happening right now. Our insight may be able to help the case. First of you, Joe Scott Morgan, death investigator, to determine whether the same person is responsible for all these knifing attacks, you've got one good eyewitness, I hope, the person that lived, although they may have been attacked from behind and didn't see who attacked them. But the mode of the knifings, for instance, is it, for instance, O.J. Simpson style, where you slash the person across the neck the way he did Nicole Brown? Is it multiple stab wounds to the back? Does the killer stab the person in their sexual parts, like their breasts or their genitals?

It happens. Are they attacked and while they're down, stabbed? All of these MOs, modus operandi, method of operation, will help determine is it the same knifer? And also, what can we learn from the wounds themselves, Joe Scott, the type of knife, the depth of the blade? Help me out. How can we determine based on the physical evidence alone, just let's say we don't have any eyewitnesses, that this is the same perp? Yeah, what we're looking for, Nancy, at autopsy in particular, with these three victims that have that have been murdered, is you're going to want to try to put together a profile of the weapon itself.

And some things we can learn at autopsy. Is this a double bladed knife? It doesn't have two edges on it. Or is this a single bladed knife where it has one leading edge and it has a blunt side? Also, it doesn't have a heel. Hold on, hold on, Joe Scott. A, I'm trying to write down everything you say. But B, when you say single edge, you mean typically like the kind we would use in the kitchen, like a butcher knife. It's only serrated on one side. Yeah, and more than likely if this guy is using the same weapon,

because keep in mind, lots of people that serialize crimes, they like to go back to the same instruments that they are used to using. So if he's using the same weapon over and over again, you have to think, because people don't realize this. I've worked a lot of cases where we have stabbings and the knife will actually break off in the body. So he wants something that's going to be real. We haven't been that lucky yet because I don't think the weapon or any part of the weapon has been recovered. Levi Page, do we have a weapon yet? Did he leave the weapon anywhere?

Was part of the weapon found in any of the bodies? Nancy, we don't know any of that information. Law enforcement is keeping that very close to their vest. I guarantee you, Brenda Stallings, there would have been a leak somewhere from the Little Rock PD or with the press if they had found the weapon, Brenda. That's your neck of the woods. What do you think? I think they have not found a weapon. Why do you think that? I believe that the Little Rock Police Department is doing everything they can, along with the Little Rock Police Chief, to let us know as a community, not only am I an attorney here, but I live in the area. So we have been, we being our mayor, Frank Scott, our downtown neighborhood association president, Sarah Pilcher, we have all been in communication with our neighbors to make sure everybody is safe.

So they are communicating with us the most up-to-date information. And the information we have is that, one, they are not calling it a serial killer because there is no link at this time and there is no weapon. Okay. I know they're not calling it a serial killer, but I don't have to answer up to the Department of Public Information. I can call it like I see it. And I think at least three of the four are connected. They are all occurring between, I guess, around 11 a.m. to 4 a.m. No, 1 a.m. to 4 a.m. That's correct, 1 a.m. to 4 a.m. No, 1 a.m. to 4 a.m.

That's correct, 1 a.m. to 4 a.m. They're all occurring in a particular area. There has been a video that has been released. We don't know if this is the man, but this is a suspect. And they're all knifings. I'm very curious if the knifings are similar. You know what, Joe Scott? I went off on a tangent with Brenda Stallings.

Guys, you can find Brenda at brendastallings.com, a veteran trial lawyer. Here's the deal. You can't be a trial lawyer in the DA's office or the public defender's office without being a veteran trial lawyer, because the cases come fast and furious and you've got to either take a plea or you've got to go to trial. Those are your two choices. So unless you're in appeals or you're in deadbeat dads or you draw up indictments, you're in there trying cases pretty much. So if you want to find her, go to brendastallings.com. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Go back to you, Joe Scott Morgan.

You were saying, before I so rudely interrupted, about the profile of the weapon itself. So one quick thing. Now, according to Levi Page, these crimes started in August 2020 and we're now at April 2021. I wonder how many other knife deaths could be attributed to the same person, and why do you think they're not calling it a serial killer? Well, that is the interesting point. They might not be fitting the same profile where the police or maybe the state police have

become involved at this point in time where they have this connection that's going on. But look, if I've got someone that's going around stabbing people, there's going to be at some level within that department a connection that's being made. And trust me, they're looking at this. Now, as to the weapon itself, some of the other things we're going to look for are going to be like, just so folks understand, if you have a hunting knife, you'll have what's referred to as a hilt. And it kind of protects the hand. It's kind of a metal bridge.

You see them on TV a lot and in movies. And you can actually have, and depending upon the level of violence, you can have a hilt mark on the body that comes off as a proof. Hold on. Let me just do a quick demo. A hilt would be like forming a little cross. Yes, yes. And the perp holds the knife and the hilt protects his or her hand from going down the blade. Okay, go ahead.

Yeah, and so depending upon the amount of force that's left that occurs, you can actually bruise the body or contuse the body where it makes contact. Where you bury that knife into the body, they'll form a bruise there. The hilt will bruise the body or at least redden the body. I wonder if they found any of that or thought to look for that in the autopsies. Go ahead, please. Yeah. And here's another interesting thing. You know, knives are in different qualities, Nancy. And we talked about, you know, I talked about how sometimes knives will break off. Well, they're not necessarily going to break off. but sometimes if a knife passes through bone, it'll leave little metal flecks in the bone. And if these bodies are being x-rayed, you can

actually see this little metal storm that takes place. If they can get to those little flecks of metal, they might can actually do metallurgy on the metal that's left behind and they can make a determination of the origin of the blade. Now, that's kind of a long shot, but that's some of the things that we're going to look for. And not to mention the nature of the stab wounds. You had mentioned earlier, is this an attack from behind or is it a forward facing attack? Did the individual approach from the rear? This is not like shooting somebody, Nancy. This is a very personal event. You know what?

Now you're getting into Dr. Sherry Schwartz's territory. We need to shrink right now. And remember, everybody on the panel, jump in. Guys, we're talking about a serial killer potentially roaming the streets of Little Rock. Tip line 501-371-4636. Repeat, 501-371-4636. Or you can just email asklrpd, littlerockpd, at littlerock.gov. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, I find it keenly interesting that after nearly a seven-month hiatus, the alleged serial killer has resumed hunting victims, breaking the hiatus with 43-year-old Deborah Walker the morning of April 11, about one month ago. What does the hiatus mean to you?

Could he have been in jail? That's a very, very good possibility, possibly in jail. But we also know from Dennisis raider btk right he killed 10 victims over what was it a 30-ish year period so with serial killers it's not uncommon to see a cooling off period it varies by serial killers um if that's in fact what we're dealing with here but it's not entirely uncommon but, of course, he could have been in jail going about his daily life and planning. Going about his daily life. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, what daily life?

The man is out and about between one o'clock and four o'clock in the morning. You think he's got a job? Well, he in some ways, You think he's got a job? Well, he in some ways, sometimes this is their job, right? They, you know, are planning their next attack. This is somebody who is stabbing people. So they clearly like killing. They like the blood. They like the gore.

When you're stabbing someone, you're up close and personal, right? But I imagine, too, this is more Joe Scott Morgan's area, but it takes a lot of physical effort. So even with that thing on the knife that you all were discussing, once there's a lot of blood, I imagine your hands are slipping, right? So you might need some healing time in between. So it's a really, really troubling way to kill people. Any way you kill people is not great, but this is particularly troubling. You know, I want to follow up on something you're bringing up about what Joe Scott Morgan said. Joe Scott, what you were saying about particles of the knife actually breaking off in the body if they come in contact with bone. You know how, for instance, paint off a car that's involved in a hit and run can be analyzed and you can determine what car, what kind of paint it is, and what that professional car paint,

what car it was used on. For instance, Nissan and Mercedes-Benz don't use the same silver. They make their own. So you're going to find different components in each of those paints, even though they both look silver. I wonder if knives or knife particles, metal particles in the body caught on bone have ever been analyzed in that way so it can be traced back to a particular knife. Have you ever heard of that? Because I just thought of it. Has that ever been done? Well, yeah. And there is a division within tool marks and, you know, where they'll look for metallurgical signatures. And metallurgical is essentially a fancy way of talking about the chemical structure of metallic bodies. Why do you talk like that? We're not in eighth grade science for Pete's sake.

Are you saying the knife is made up of how much iron, how much tin? I don't know. They did not teach me metallurgy in law school. But you're looking for the components, the exact components in the metal of the knife to trace it back to the type of knife. So they do do that. Yeah, they can. Is that the FBI? Well, yeah, it would have to be the FBI. I can't imagine Arkansas State Crime Lab would be able to have that ability.

I mean, that's very rare. Yeah, it is. But here's something that has more of a point to it. I think just like Dr. Sherry was saying, this is a very, very intimate event. Keep in mind, they're up close and personal and many times with stab wounds, when you particularly get multiple stab wounds, it's a frenzied event. So the perpetrator... Hold on. Good point. Levi Page, isn't it true that the victim I just told you about, Deborah Walker, was stabbed 15 times? That sounds like a frenzy. Yeah, so the case that you're talking about, Nancy, on April 11th, she was stabbed 15 times. She's 43 years old. That happened at 3 a.m. in Little Rock on the streets. And this was so random.

She was stabbed 15 times and survived. She was able to give a description of this knife-wielding maniac to police. She said that he was over six feet tall, slender, and African-American. I'm looking at a map, Jack. You just sent me. Is that what you sent me, Jack? And you can see, oh, yeah,'m telling you, this is the same guy. Brenda Stallings, this is your town. This is in your backyard. And you may very well be

representing this guy, which will be a death penalty case, obviously. But I'm looking at the map between the Little Rock Zoo and I-30. They're all right there. They don't look like they're from this map. They don't look like they're each eight blocks apart. Well, Nancy, I can say that for Little Rock, we do consider it different neighborhoods. So Little Rock is not as big as maybe a big metropolitan city like, you know, Atlanta or Detroit. But in here, Little Rock, it is different neighborhoods.

So I can see how well, if you look on a map, it looks like it's about eight blocks. It's more than eight blocks. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I spent a lot of time in Little Rock. My now husband worked for a group out of Little Rock. And I'm looking right at it. This is the downtown area south of North Little Rock and not too far from the Little Rock Zoo. Guys, take a listen to the Little Rock police chief.

His name is Chief Keith Humphrey, as Little Rock is on high alert. Listen. In early April of 2021, our communications department received a call of a cutting in progress. We responded. The victim in this case lived and spoke with detectives about the experience. Days later, we investigated a homicide where a lifeless body was found on Wright Avenue. Detectives took information from those two cases and compared them to two homicides from six months ago and noted similarities in all four cases. It was determined then that these incidents could

possibly be connected based off the evidence in each case. Therefore, I need to notify the public it exists. Without compromising these investigations, I can say for certain that these incidents happened in the Midtown area. They also occurred between the hours of 1 a.m. and 4 a.m. Those who were walking in the area were randomly attacked. So, random attacks in the area were randomly attacked. So random attacks in the area. Now listen to Mitch McCoy, KARK4. We know it's a man and we know that he's about six feet tall or taller. So that's what we know. We know that the FBI is helping the Little Rock Police Department out in this investigation.

I was actually just talking to some of my contacts at the FBI. We're told that they are using agents from the FBI's behavioral analysis unit, which is kind of like that criminal minds TV show, Mallory, where they try to get into the minds of killers. So that unit is involved. That unit's based out of Quantico. We know that they're giving info to LRPD. We're also being told that the FBI is helping them use technology to help clean up surveillance photos. Okay, you know what? This is what I know, Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of forensics. The FBI is very rarely involved in a murder, a single murder. The only time I knew anyway, sometimes they're involved and you don't know it. The feds were involved in one of my cases out of the literally thousands of cases I handle. I just

thought it was a triple homicide. What I didn't know is that one of the perps had been under FBI surveillance and surveillance by the DEA for a long time for dope dealing, being actually a drug lord. See, I didn't know that our cases intersected, but it took that for there to be any kind of federal involvement. When you get the FBI picking through your case, you got a whopper. Yeah, you do. You do. And listen, going back to you, you were mentioning with Dr. Sherry just a few moments ago about this pause that took place. What if what if this individual had traveled somewhere else? You know, another close town that's kind of big, that is big relative to Little Rock, geographically speaking, is Memphis. What if this guy goes to Memphis? What if they've got stabbings in Memphis?

Or, you know, what if I don't know, what if you go down to Shreveport? That's not too far away. You know, what if he's, you know, kind of migrating around and you start to get these pauses? But he's always on foot, Joe Scott. This guy's on foot. You really see him going to Memphis if he's on foot. And another thing I want to talk about, and please jump in, Brenda Stallings, and Dr. Sherry Swartz, to you, the fact that he's attacking at random. These are not people he knows.

Guys, Dr. Sherry, think on that a moment. Take a listen to more from Mitch McCoy, KARK. There are four total knife attacks, only one survivor. Little Rock Police say the victims were pedestrians. They are spread between South Gaines Street, West 12th Street, 19th near Marshall and Wright Avenue. Two attacks happened last year. The latest two were earlier this month. They all happened in the overnight hours. The victims, who appear to be at random, are between ages 40 and 64. Three are men, one is a woman. The only survivor was stabbed 15 times.

Little Rock Police calling this person a possible suspect. They say he's a man about six foot. There are no other details available, but LRPD is asking people to send in their home surveillance camera footage if they notice anything suspicious on them. LRPD releasing in a recorded statement today to send it to their detectives division. The FBI is involved tonight, and I'm told that it's the behavioral analysis unit

helping them to try and gain some kind of psychological knowledge of this possible serial killer. And speaking of psychological knowledge, I want you to take a listen to our cut nine. This is Hunter Hoagland, K-A-R-K, four. The walkability of downtown Little Rock is what most neighbors love. But after Little Rock police say this man randomly stabbed four people walking alone, it makes you rethink.

Being stabbed is a very intimate act. You have to get really close up to a person. Rachel Miller and her husband walk into your South Gaines Street most days. A street where police say one of four victims was found with multiple stab wounds, dead. That is kind of creepy to know that somebody will just come up and randomly stab you. It is horrifying. I know that we are a tight-knit community, so my first thought was, let me make sure that everybody is aware. Okay. Nancy, that was actually me speaking right there.

Yeah, I was trying to ask you, that sounds like your voice. It was me, and that is true. We are trying to make sure that everybody downtown and in the Midtown area are aware. We are posting on our neighborhood Facebook groups. We are posting on our neighborhood Facebook groups. We are having this discussion during our neighborhood meetings. The Little Rock Police Department, we can see the police officers in the parks, in the neighborhoods. We are making sure our elderly are being checked on. We are telling people when they walk their dogs, walk in pairs, walk in a group when you're walking with your kids. If you see any suspicious activity, report it immediately to the Little Rock Police Department.

Guys, you're hearing the voice of Brenda Installing's veteran trial lawyer there in the public defender's office. To Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist at PantherMitigation.com. She's the author of several books, including Criminal Behavior. Dr. Sherry Schwartz, I've called them sweetheart murders, not that there's any love lost between the victim and the perp, but you are literally getting physical with your victim. It's not like you're shooting at 20 paces or a sniper far in the distance, or you're running somebody over with a car. You are body to body grappling with them, stabbing them as the lifeblood runs out of them. What do you make of the fact that this killer

doesn't use a gun? He doesn't run over them. He wants to stab them. He doesn't even know these people. This is very sadistic. This is somebody who appears to derive pleasure from inflicting that pain and suffering and maybe even gets a sexual charge out of inflicting that kind of humiliation, that sneaking up on the person and they never see it coming. And one of the things that I wanted to touch on quickly, Nancy, is about the use of the term random. I understand what the police are saying and the reporters are saying about it's random victims because there's not a connection necessarily between the victims and it doesn't appear, at least from the surviving victim, that this stabbing person was known to her.

Right. However, this is not a random act. This is a predator. This is a hunter who appears to enjoy killing someone in the most sadistic way. They want them to suffer. They want to continue to inflict the pain. They're clearly not afraid of the blood or, you know, that sort of thing. So this does not feel random in the way that this person's just walking down the street with a knife. It's happening between the same time of day. So this is somebody who's casing an area potentially and lying in wait for somebody to pass by. Lying in wait for someone to pass by. What more do we know? Take a listen to our friend Paris Kane at ABC7, our Cut 12. The recent park shootings come at a

time when LRPD is searching for a suspect potentially connected to three fatal stabbings in Little Rock. Mayor Scott says connecting the stabbings within an eight-month period reinforces the quality of the detectives we have on the case. We believe that we'll catch this person and again we're also praying for those families. We're going to find you. You're going to be prosecuted to the to the letter of the law because the people of this city deserve that. They don't deserve to be held hostage. Police say tips on the stabbing suspect are pouring in, and there is a $20,000 reward for any information that leads to an arrest. I'm glad she said that, a $20,000 reward.

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. For those of you just joining us, police now believe a serial killer is walking the streets of Little Rock in downtown Little Rock, stabbing, as they say, at random, although our expert Dr. Sherry Schwartz says the attacks are not random at all, while the killer may not know his victim, that he comes at a certain time within the space of two hours in the early morning hours. One specific area of Little Rock always uses the same MO, which hardly speaks of random, while the victims may fact, be random in that he doesn't know his victims. Back to you, Levi Page, CrimeOnline.com investigative reporter. What can you tell me about the $20,000 reward? Who is offering that? The Little Rock Police Department said there's a $20,000 reward.

I don't know exactly who is offering that. But the tip line, Nancy, for anyone that has any tips, they can call 501-371-4636 and give any tips to the Little Rock police and they will follow up on that. To Brenda Installing's veteran lawyer there in the public defender's office in Little Rock, This is her town. Brenda, I noticed that police have only released a number of stab wounds on one person, that being Deborah Walker, who survived. Why are they not revealing the number of stab wounds on the other victims? Nancy, I'll say this much. If there is any information that is getting out and the alleged, you know, perpetrator is paying attention, he might change his MO. And so, the Little Rock Police Department is being very careful, from my understanding, in making sure that enough information is getting out that our community

can be safe and our community can rally together and report any suspicious activities, but also not given enough information that the perpetrator will change his M.O. Because that's a possibility. You know what, Brenda? You're absolutely correct. You know, I'm curious about this video that has been taken. You can see this at CrimeOnline.com. And it's been released by Little Rock Police, shows a man suspected in four separate stabbings. I'm looking at him right now. It is a tall black male. He looks to be wearing,

in this picture, jeans and a long sleeve t-shirt or sweatshirt. I can't tell if he's wearing gloves or not, and he looks to be wearing white tennis shoes and a hat, maybe a baseball cap, because I'm looking at him from behind. But I don't see in his hands a knife. So where does he put the knife? Does he put it in his pocket? Where does he put that knife? Tell me about the release of this video, Levi Page. So the Little Rock Police Department released a video and it depicts what they believe could be the suspect in these attacks and murders the video is is dark because this is in late at night early in the morning and you can see a tall man slim bit built man walking on a sidewalk area in the first video that was released and he's pacing back and

forth and there's a white car a four-door car located across the street from him and then in the second clip it shows what looks to be like the same man crossing a street and it looks like he's wearing like you said a sweatshirt maybe even a hoodie long pants possibly jeans they're loose loose, relaxed fit. He's not wearing tight, form-fitting clothing. And he appears to possibly be wearing gloves, but it's hard to see exactly because it is so dark outside. Well, one thing that's really interesting to me about this is that in the one picture, I've looked at several of the stills from the video.

And one picture, his back is turned to the camera. And the other one, he's wearing similar clothes. But he's right at a stop sign, and it looks to be illuminated, such as under a streetlight or some type of lighting there. Are you looking at the photo of him beside the stop sign? Yes, you're right. That's a little bit clearer than the first image. And you're right. It does look like he's walking in front of a streetlight.

Guys, take a look. Nancy, we are asking people to check their external home cameras and see if they have any footage and if they see anything that stands out to contact the Little Rock Police Department. Guys, take a listen to our cut number five.

This is Ashley Godwin at THV 11. out to contact the Little Rock Police Department. Guys, take a listen to our cut number five. This is Ashley Godwin at THV 11. It's terrible. I'm really concerned. Kind of make you scared to move, you know, go out of your own house. People are just still hearing about the man targeting the Little Rock community. The first stabbing happened on August 24th, 2020 at South Gaines Street, where 64-year-old Larry McChristian died from his injuries. The second attack was only one month later at West 12th Street, taking the life of 62-year-old Jeff Welch. Police responded to the third attack on April 11th of this year at 19th and Marshall Streets. The 43-year-old woman was stabbed over 15 times but survived those injuries. And just one day later, police investigated a homicide on Wright Avenue where they found the

body of 40-year-old Marlon Franklin. You know, I'm very curious. Joe Scott Morgan, you're the professor of forensic at Jacksonville State University. How does the FBI go about enhancing this video? And do we know where the video came from? You know, that's interesting, Nancy, because depending upon the video is only going to be as good as the equipment that is being utilized to record. So, you know, you're already starting with a deficit here. If this is the best that they can do relative to enhancement, then they're going to be in trouble. That's why what Ms. Stallings was saying is so very important, that if you can access people's ring cams and these sorts of cameras that people now, you know, it's amazing how many of these people have these installed in their homes now.

You capture not just another view, you capture multiple angles of this individual. And so if you can do that, the FBI and their media enhancement section, which is actually part, a subset of the behavioral sciences section there, it's like an adjunct auxiliary that they have. They spend a lot of time kind of noodling with this stuff electronically and tightening up these images as much as they can without kind of distorting them. And it's a very fine line they have to work with. And if they can get multiple views, you can begin to develop things like gait. Wow, where have we heard that before, Nancy, relative to people walking.

Missy B, I always remember that. There you go. I sure do. And also height. And that's a big thing. You know, they're talking how this guy looks like he's tall. You can't really confirm that because if you only have one view, it gives you kind of a stilted, a stilted perspective on the individual, particularly if it's from above. So, you know, you really don't know what you're looking at. That's why you need multiple views.

If this is all they have, I'd say that they're in trouble. You know, I noticed that one of the videos, Dr. Sherry Schwartz, forensic psychologist, showed the killer pacing back and forth. What does that tell you? Well, if they're pacing back and forth ahead of time, they're, you know, getting, it seems to me to suggest the state of excitement about getting ready to carry out this brutal, vicious attack. If it's after the fact, it's possibly shaking off that energy, that heightened sense of, yes, I just, you know, accomplished another killing. So it does suggest this sort of in the way of being afraid. Clearly, this is not somebody who fears being captured because they're out in public doing these things, but just working off sort of that physical energy that comes with that heightened mental state. I recall a defendant convicted for murder went to jail and he was later connected to some armed robberies. He came back to my same courtroom since I had handled the first case

and I noticed he had now been in jail for a year. He paced back and forth in the courtroom waiting for the next adjudication like a tiger in a cage. And I'm wondering why this guy didn't take off running. Why he paced back and forth. Was he waiting on a ride? Why? But the gate that you heard Joe Scott Morgan referring to could be critical in this case. For anyone listening to our voices or tuning in,

tip line 501-371-4636. Please help before we lose another life. Nancy Grace, Crime Story, signing off. Goodbye, friend. You're listening to an iHeart Podcast.